Photoshop recommendations

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Neil Jones, Dec 24, 2008.

  1. Stephen Bishop wrote:

    > I'll strongly second the recommendation for Elements. It is a very
    > nice program on its own, not just a "limited" version of Photoshop.
    > But it it looks and feels like Photoshop. If you find you want or
    > need the extra features that the full Photoshop offers, you can always
    > spend the few hundred extra dollars at that time.


    Moreover, if you're familiar with Elements, you'll have a headstart
    when, if, and as you move up to Photoshop. It is also [- both of them;
    they are - ] cross platform, which is one reason to recommend against
    Paintshop Pro and Apple's aperture.

    Thus, when if and as you move to a better OS, you'll be up on the
    learning curve there.

    --
    john mcwilliams
     
    John McWilliams, Dec 24, 2008
    #21
    1. Advertising

  2. Neil Jones

    Dave Cohen Guest

    Neil Jones wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I am amateur photographer, only up to the point of taking pictures. For
    > the pictures I shoot, I do not process the pictures or enhance them with
    > touch ups etc. The pictures that turn out good are printed and the rest
    > are saved.
    >
    > I am planning to purchase Photoshop to enhance the photos. It appears
    > that Photoshop has a religious following in the photo processing area.
    > To tell the truth, when I went to the Adobe site I was completely lost.
    > They have tons of products with varying price ranges. What Photoshop
    > version(s) are used by the community at large to process and enhance
    > photos? What would be the price range?
    >
    > Thank you in advance for any help.
    >
    > Happy Holidays!
    >
    > NJ
    >
    > PS - What are plugins? Do you need to buy them separately from Photoshop?


    PS is a very expensive product with a steep learning curve. It's the
    standard for professionals, particularly if final output is for
    professional publication.

    I've never used elements but understand it's all the normal amateur
    would need. I've used PhotoPlus and now use PSP9. The latter is almost
    given away if you can find it. Later versions are distributed by Corel.
    All the above are really adequate. You can get lots of free stuff, but
    at some time or other you'll discover layers and for that you will need
    something a little better than a freebie, which is not to knock the
    latter. FastStone is great for quick fix ups and cropping.

    One last point, there is a free and quite powerful product known at The
    Gimp. Some people seem to love it, I don't. You would need to download a
    copy and see for yourself.
    Dave Cohen
     
    Dave Cohen, Dec 24, 2008
    #22
    1. Advertising

  3. Neil Jones

    Leo Lichtman Guest

    I started with Photoshop Elements 4, and I was fortunate that just at the
    right time, a retired UC professor in my area offered weekly lessons on it
    in his home. I want to emphacize this: using a program that is popular has
    its advantages. You can find people to talk to, ask questions and compare
    experiences with, like I did. We still meet in this professor's home and
    discuss our work, even though the instructional part is over. Being with
    others who share the same background and experience is very rewarding; you
    never stop learning.
     
    Leo Lichtman, Dec 25, 2008
    #23
  4. Neil Jones

    Dave Cohen Guest

    Leo Lichtman wrote:
    > I started with Photoshop Elements 4, and I was fortunate that just at the
    > right time, a retired UC professor in my area offered weekly lessons on it
    > in his home. I want to emphacize this: using a program that is popular has
    > its advantages. You can find people to talk to, ask questions and compare
    > experiences with, like I did. We still meet in this professor's home and
    > discuss our work, even though the instructional part is over. Being with
    > others who share the same background and experience is very rewarding; you
    > never stop learning.
    >
    >

    I agree. I use PSP9 because I got it for around $12, but not only your
    experience is relevant, anytime I see a 'how to do it' type article in
    Photo magazines, it invariably illustrates using PS, but my
    understanding is this is more easily translated into Elements than
    other, although most of the time I can translate into PSP. Earlier on
    someone included a link for Elements 6 for $28, which is very tempting.
    The point I would emphasize is one shouldn't jump into the full version
    of PS until he knows that is really what he needs (unless money is no
    object).
    My local library has a whole slew of books on PS and a reasonable
    selection on elements. Not much on PSP
    Dave Cohen
     
    Dave Cohen, Dec 25, 2008
    #24
  5. Neil Jones

    tony cooper Guest

    On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 22:54:22 -0500, Dave Cohen <>
    wrote:

    >Leo Lichtman wrote:
    >> I started with Photoshop Elements 4, and I was fortunate that just at the
    >> right time, a retired UC professor in my area offered weekly lessons on it
    >> in his home. I want to emphacize this: using a program that is popular has
    >> its advantages. You can find people to talk to, ask questions and compare
    >> experiences with, like I did. We still meet in this professor's home and
    >> discuss our work, even though the instructional part is over. Being with
    >> others who share the same background and experience is very rewarding; you
    >> never stop learning.
    >>
    >>

    >I agree. I use PSP9 because I got it for around $12, but not only your
    >experience is relevant, anytime I see a 'how to do it' type article in
    >Photo magazines, it invariably illustrates using PS, but my
    >understanding is this is more easily translated into Elements than
    >other, although most of the time I can translate into PSP. Earlier on
    >someone included a link for Elements 6 for $28, which is very tempting.
    >The point I would emphasize is one shouldn't jump into the full version
    >of PS until he knows that is really what he needs (unless money is no
    >object).
    >My local library has a whole slew of books on PS and a reasonable
    >selection on elements. Not much on PSP
    >Dave Cohen


    It's appropriate to go back to the initial post. The OP takes
    photographs, but has not been editing them. He's looking for a
    program to take his first steps in editing photographs.

    I recommended Elements as a good first step. Elements, at this level,
    is easy-peasy. The "Quick Edit" module shows the original and the
    results of any editing side by side. He can crop in this mode, click
    the button for "Smart Fix" or "Auto Levels" and make just about any
    decent photograph look more than presentable. A bit too dark on the
    faces? Move the "Lighten Shadows" a bit to the right. The auto Red
    Eye fix usually works. For 90% of the average photographer's output,
    this works a treat.

    There's some additional bells and whistles for anyone who wants to
    follow one of the many online tutorials. Elements does Adjustment
    Layers and creates Selections. It has most of the basic tools for
    editing. The Spot Healing brush is easier to use than the Clone
    Stamp.

    Anyone who tries Elements can be successfully editing the average
    photograph right away. No learning curve to speak of.

    You can put that OP in the full Photoshop or Gimp, but the learning
    curve is steeper. He can do more eventually, but there's no
    indication that he's ready to do so or interested in doing so.





    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Dec 25, 2008
    #25
  6. Neil Jones

    tony cooper Guest

    On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 23:36:58 -0500, tony cooper
    <> wrote:

    >It's appropriate to go back to the initial post. The OP takes
    >photographs, but has not been editing them. He's looking for a
    >program to take his first steps in editing photographs.
    >

    I see the same type of threads in the photography newsgroups. Some
    guy comes in and wants a recommendation for a good camera because his
    first grandchild was born and he wants to take photographs.

    The thread then takes off into gearhead discussions on the attributes
    of various cameras and the P&S vs dslr wars. Truth is, the new grampa
    can buy the camera nearest the door and it will work for him as well
    as the best camera in the store. All the guy's gonna do is point the
    camera at the baby and push the button.

    You really have to gear the discussion to the wants and needs of the
    poster or you'll just add to the confusion that brought him to the
    newsgroup in the first place.


    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Dec 25, 2008
    #26
  7. Neil Jones

    Leo Lichtman Guest

    "tony cooper" wrote: (clip)You really have to gear the discussion to the
    wants and needs of the
    > poster or you'll just add to the confusion that brought him to the
    > newsgroup in the first place.

    ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
    This sentence could well be cross-posted to a great many other newsgroups.
    Well thought and well said.
     
    Leo Lichtman, Dec 25, 2008
    #27
  8. Neil Jones

    Bob Williams Guest

    Neil Jones wrote:
    > Hi,
    >
    > I am amateur photographer, only up to the point of taking pictures. For
    > the pictures I shoot, I do not process the pictures or enhance them with
    > touch ups etc. The pictures that turn out good are printed and the rest
    > are saved.
    >
    > I am planning to purchase Photoshop to enhance the photos. It appears
    > that Photoshop has a religious following in the photo processing area.
    > To tell the truth, when I went to the Adobe site I was completely lost.
    > They have tons of products with varying price ranges. What Photoshop
    > version(s) are used by the community at large to process and enhance
    > photos? What would be the price range?
    >
    > Thank you in advance for any help.
    >
    > Happy Holidays!
    >
    > NJ
    >
    > PS - What are plugins? Do you need to buy them separately from Photoshop?


    Full Photoshop is a PROFESSIONAL program.
    Although it is extremely powerful and versatile, it is NOT easy to learn
    on your own.
    Adode assumes that if you put out major bucks for the CS versions, you
    are a working professional or serious amateur and you already know your
    way around the program.
    OTOH, PS Elements is an entry level program for persons like yourself
    who are new to digital imaging. Entry level does not mean dumbed down.
    PS Elements is extremely powerful and can do almost everything that a
    newbie would want to do with full PS. But unlike full PS, Elements
    volunteers a lot of help as you work thru the editing process.
    Even so, using the tools in any photo editing program is not intuitive.
    IMHO, you will need a well written book or manual to help you learn what
    the various editing tools do and how to use them.
    I suggest that you buy PS Elements 7 and STRONGLY encourage to purchase
    a self-help book to go along with it. Over the years I have used a
    number of self-help books on using PS and I can recommend the "Teach
    Yourself Visually" series as well as the "Classroom in a Book" series by
    the Adobe Staff.
    Amazon carries both oh these series. For a rank beginner, I would start
    with Teach Yourself......" and graduate to "Classroom........"
    At Amazon.com, See:
    http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Yoursel...=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230189028&sr=1-4

    Bob Williams
     
    Bob Williams, Dec 25, 2008
    #28
  9. Neil Jones

    Neil Jones Guest

    Leo Lichtman wrote:
    > I started with Photoshop Elements 4, and I was fortunate that just at the
    > right time, a retired UC professor in my area offered weekly lessons on it
    > in his home. I want to emphacize this: using a program that is popular has
    > its advantages. You can find people to talk to, ask questions and compare
    > experiences with, like I did. We still meet in this professor's home and
    > discuss our work, even though the instructional part is over. Being with
    > others who share the same background and experience is very rewarding; you
    > never stop learning.
    >
    >


    You hit the main point that had me post this question! I do have GIMP
    on my system and have used it minimally over the years (only for
    cropping). Now I want to do a little bit more than cropping the
    pictures. I know GIMP can do what Adobe PS or Elements is doing. BUT,
    the support groups/books/classes offered for GIMP are minimal compared
    to Adobe Photoshop. Yes, the tutorials for GIMP at one or two main
    websites do not motivate me to do anything creative/enchanements to my
    pictures. The users on GIMP mailing list/newsgroup either have never
    been tried what I am trying to accomplish with my photo editing or have
    the attitude "Go figure it out yourself". Last but least, I am willing
    to take a class which will teach me how to process pictures. So far
    that I know, I have not seen anything for GIMP. Photoshop does have
    quite a few classes. With Photoshop, my main confusion was about the
    products at their website (Which one do I need?).

    The other software packages, even the ones that came along with my
    camera really don't interest me in trying to be creative with my pictures.

    I think I will consider getting Photoshop Elements (in the next few
    weeks) and consider taking a class.

    Now, like Leo, I will need to find a university professor or some
    professional who offers classes locally for Photoshop.

    NJ
     
    Neil Jones, Dec 25, 2008
    #29
  10. Neil Jones

    Dave Cohen Guest

    Bob Williams wrote:
    > Neil Jones wrote:
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> I am amateur photographer, only up to the point of taking pictures. For
    >> the pictures I shoot, I do not process the pictures or enhance them with
    >> touch ups etc. The pictures that turn out good are printed and the rest
    >> are saved.
    >>
    >> I am planning to purchase Photoshop to enhance the photos. It appears
    >> that Photoshop has a religious following in the photo processing area.
    >> To tell the truth, when I went to the Adobe site I was completely lost.
    >> They have tons of products with varying price ranges. What Photoshop
    >> version(s) are used by the community at large to process and enhance
    >> photos? What would be the price range?
    >>
    >> Thank you in advance for any help.
    >>
    >> Happy Holidays!
    >>
    >> NJ
    >>
    >> PS - What are plugins? Do you need to buy them separately from
    >> Photoshop?

    >
    > Full Photoshop is a PROFESSIONAL program.
    > Although it is extremely powerful and versatile, it is NOT easy to learn
    > on your own.
    > Adode assumes that if you put out major bucks for the CS versions, you
    > are a working professional or serious amateur and you already know your
    > way around the program.
    > OTOH, PS Elements is an entry level program for persons like yourself
    > who are new to digital imaging. Entry level does not mean dumbed down.
    > PS Elements is extremely powerful and can do almost everything that a
    > newbie would want to do with full PS. But unlike full PS, Elements
    > volunteers a lot of help as you work thru the editing process.
    > Even so, using the tools in any photo editing program is not intuitive.
    > IMHO, you will need a well written book or manual to help you learn what
    > the various editing tools do and how to use them.
    > I suggest that you buy PS Elements 7 and STRONGLY encourage to purchase
    > a self-help book to go along with it. Over the years I have used a
    > number of self-help books on using PS and I can recommend the "Teach
    > Yourself Visually" series as well as the "Classroom in a Book" series by
    > the Adobe Staff.
    > Amazon carries both oh these series. For a rank beginner, I would start
    > with Teach Yourself......" and graduate to "Classroom........"
    > At Amazon.com, See:
    > http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Yoursel...=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230189028&sr=1-4
    >
    >
    > Bob Williams


    I just took advantage of that $12 for Elements 6 from Price Grabber, so
    I'll be able to get a good feel for how it compares to my current PSP 9.
    All packages do red eye in one way or another, but PSP 9 does it in
    style, you get to choices on what to replace with, and for animal lovers
    is has an animal selection which is nice. They get same problem but
    color is usually other than red.
    Now at least I should be able to get a decent book or two that relates
    to what I'm using without having to translate (although much of the time
    that does work).
    For $12 the op could play with that at low risk. I looked at some
    reviews and there doesn't appear to be much lost in 6 from version 7.
    Dave Cohen
     
    Dave Cohen, Dec 25, 2008
    #30
  11. Stephen Bishop wrote:
    > On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 14:26:31 -0800, John McWilliams
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> Stephen Bishop wrote:
    >>
    >>> I'll strongly second the recommendation for Elements. It is a very
    >>> nice program on its own, not just a "limited" version of Photoshop.
    >>> But it it looks and feels like Photoshop. If you find you want or
    >>> need the extra features that the full Photoshop offers, you can always
    >>> spend the few hundred extra dollars at that time.

    >> Moreover, if you're familiar with Elements, you'll have a headstart
    >> when, if, and as you move up to Photoshop. It is also [- both of them;
    >> they are - ] cross platform, which is one reason to recommend against
    >> Paintshop Pro and Apple's aperture.
    >>
    >> Thus, when if and as you move to a better OS, you'll be up on the
    >> learning curve there.'

    >
    > You mean when you move from Apple to Windows?


    That's one possibility!*
    >
    > LOL


    Good!

    > Merry Christmas, John!


    And same to you, and all.

    John

    *Probably would be from a ten year old Mac to a new PC, or from a new PC
    to a two year old Mac, but I purposely left it quite open.....
    :)
     
    John McWilliams, Dec 25, 2008
    #31
  12. Neil Jones

    Don Stauffer Guest

    Caesar Romano wrote:
    > On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 08:00:43 -0500, Neil Jones
    > <> wrote Re Photoshop
    > recommendations:
    >
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> I am amateur photographer, only up to the point of taking pictures. For
    >> the pictures I shoot, I do not process the pictures or enhance them with
    >> touch ups etc. The pictures that turn out good are printed and the rest
    >> are saved.
    >>
    >> I am planning to purchase Photoshop to enhance the photos. It appears
    >> that Photoshop has a religious following in the photo processing area.
    >> To tell the truth, when I went to the Adobe site I was completely lost.
    >> They have tons of products with varying price ranges. What Photoshop
    >> version(s) are used by the community at large to process and enhance
    >> photos? What would be the price range?
    >>
    >> Thank you in advance for any help.

    >
    > You may wish to consider Paint Shop Pro at www.jasc.com/ It does most
    > of what PS does at a fraction of the price. Unless you are doing VERY
    > high end image *creation* (rather than editing) PSP is all that you
    > need. There is a dedicated NG at comp.graphics.apps.paint-shop-pro


    While I am a long time PSP user, to be fair we should also point out
    Photoshop Elements, which is about the same price as PSP.

    The big thing that PSP and PE do not handle as well as the full
    photoshop are pre-press operations (preparing for printing on a printing
    press). Only the pros need that stuff, so either PSP or PE sounds okay
    for the original poster.
     
    Don Stauffer, Dec 25, 2008
    #32
  13. Neil Jones

    tony cooper Guest

    On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 09:40:21 -0500, Dave Cohen <>
    wrote:

    >Bob Williams wrote:
    >> Neil Jones wrote:
    >>> Hi,
    >>>
    >>> I am amateur photographer, only up to the point of taking pictures. For
    >>> the pictures I shoot, I do not process the pictures or enhance them with
    >>> touch ups etc. The pictures that turn out good are printed and the rest
    >>> are saved.
    >>>
    >>> I am planning to purchase Photoshop to enhance the photos. It appears
    >>> that Photoshop has a religious following in the photo processing area.
    >>> To tell the truth, when I went to the Adobe site I was completely lost.
    >>> They have tons of products with varying price ranges. What Photoshop
    >>> version(s) are used by the community at large to process and enhance
    >>> photos? What would be the price range?
    >>>
    >>> Thank you in advance for any help.
    >>>
    >>> Happy Holidays!
    >>>
    >>> NJ
    >>>
    >>> PS - What are plugins? Do you need to buy them separately from
    >>> Photoshop?

    >>
    >> Full Photoshop is a PROFESSIONAL program.
    >> Although it is extremely powerful and versatile, it is NOT easy to learn
    >> on your own.
    >> Adode assumes that if you put out major bucks for the CS versions, you
    >> are a working professional or serious amateur and you already know your
    >> way around the program.
    >> OTOH, PS Elements is an entry level program for persons like yourself
    >> who are new to digital imaging. Entry level does not mean dumbed down.
    >> PS Elements is extremely powerful and can do almost everything that a
    >> newbie would want to do with full PS. But unlike full PS, Elements
    >> volunteers a lot of help as you work thru the editing process.
    >> Even so, using the tools in any photo editing program is not intuitive.
    >> IMHO, you will need a well written book or manual to help you learn what
    >> the various editing tools do and how to use them.
    >> I suggest that you buy PS Elements 7 and STRONGLY encourage to purchase
    >> a self-help book to go along with it. Over the years I have used a
    >> number of self-help books on using PS and I can recommend the "Teach
    >> Yourself Visually" series as well as the "Classroom in a Book" series by
    >> the Adobe Staff.
    >> Amazon carries both oh these series. For a rank beginner, I would start
    >> with Teach Yourself......" and graduate to "Classroom........"
    >> At Amazon.com, See:
    >> http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Yoursel...=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230189028&sr=1-4
    >>
    >>
    >> Bob Williams

    >
    >I just took advantage of that $12 for Elements 6 from Price Grabber, so
    >I'll be able to get a good feel for how it compares to my current PSP 9.
    > All packages do red eye in one way or another, but PSP 9 does it in
    >style, you get to choices on what to replace with, and for animal lovers
    >is has an animal selection which is nice. They get same problem but
    >color is usually other than red.
    >Now at least I should be able to get a decent book or two that relates
    >to what I'm using without having to translate (although much of the time
    >that does work).
    >For $12 the op could play with that at low risk. I looked at some
    >reviews and there doesn't appear to be much lost in 6 from version 7.
    >Dave Cohen


    I use Elements 5.0, and tried 6.0 as a trial. I didn't see enough of
    a difference between the two to buy 6.0. There's always one tool in a
    new version that is nice, but new versions don't offer major change.

    If you feel comfortable buying a book, do so. That adds $30 to $40 to
    your cost. The price of books on any program is astronomically high.
    I spent $40 on a Scott Kelby book recently. It was worth it, but it
    focussed on one particular function of Photoshop (full version):
    channels.

    I'd recommend that you start with following some of the many online
    tutorials for Elements. They are free, and I think you'll find that
    the tutorials get you started as well as a book would. I do have a
    book on Elements (Classroom in a Book - $40) that was a gift, but I
    usually go to an online tutorial if I want additional information on a
    tool's use. The one advantage of the book is the included CD with
    examples.





    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida
     
    tony cooper, Dec 25, 2008
    #33
  14. Neil Jones

    J. Clarke Guest

    tony cooper wrote:
    > On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 09:40:21 -0500, Dave Cohen <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Bob Williams wrote:
    >>> Neil Jones wrote:
    >>>> Hi,
    >>>>
    >>>> I am amateur photographer, only up to the point of taking
    >>>> pictures. For the pictures I shoot, I do not process the
    >>>> pictures
    >>>> or enhance them with touch ups etc. The pictures that turn out
    >>>> good are printed and the rest are saved.
    >>>>
    >>>> I am planning to purchase Photoshop to enhance the photos. It
    >>>> appears that Photoshop has a religious following in the photo
    >>>> processing area. To tell the truth, when I went to the Adobe site
    >>>> I was completely lost. They have tons of products with varying
    >>>> price ranges. What Photoshop version(s) are used by the
    >>>> community
    >>>> at large to process and enhance photos? What would be the price
    >>>> range?
    >>>>
    >>>> Thank you in advance for any help.
    >>>>
    >>>> Happy Holidays!
    >>>>
    >>>> NJ
    >>>>
    >>>> PS - What are plugins? Do you need to buy them separately from
    >>>> Photoshop?
    >>>
    >>> Full Photoshop is a PROFESSIONAL program.
    >>> Although it is extremely powerful and versatile, it is NOT easy to
    >>> learn on your own.
    >>> Adode assumes that if you put out major bucks for the CS versions,
    >>> you are a working professional or serious amateur and you already
    >>> know your way around the program.
    >>> OTOH, PS Elements is an entry level program for persons like
    >>> yourself who are new to digital imaging. Entry level does not
    >>> mean
    >>> dumbed down. PS Elements is extremely powerful and can do almost
    >>> everything that a newbie would want to do with full PS. But unlike
    >>> full PS, Elements volunteers a lot of help as you work thru the
    >>> editing process.
    >>> Even so, using the tools in any photo editing program is not
    >>> intuitive. IMHO, you will need a well written book or manual to
    >>> help you learn what the various editing tools do and how to use
    >>> them.
    >>> I suggest that you buy PS Elements 7 and STRONGLY encourage to
    >>> purchase a self-help book to go along with it. Over the years I
    >>> have used a number of self-help books on using PS and I can
    >>> recommend the "Teach Yourself Visually" series as well as the
    >>> "Classroom in a Book" series by the Adobe Staff.
    >>> Amazon carries both oh these series. For a rank beginner, I would
    >>> start with Teach Yourself......" and graduate to
    >>> "Classroom........"
    >>> At Amazon.com, See:
    >>> http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Yoursel...=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230189028&sr=1-4
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Bob Williams

    >>
    >> I just took advantage of that $12 for Elements 6 from Price
    >> Grabber,
    >> so I'll be able to get a good feel for how it compares to my
    >> current
    >> PSP 9. All packages do red eye in one way or another, but PSP 9
    >> does it in style, you get to choices on what to replace with, and
    >> for animal lovers is has an animal selection which is nice. They
    >> get
    >> same problem but color is usually other than red.
    >> Now at least I should be able to get a decent book or two that
    >> relates to what I'm using without having to translate (although
    >> much
    >> of the time that does work).
    >> For $12 the op could play with that at low risk. I looked at some
    >> reviews and there doesn't appear to be much lost in 6 from version
    >> 7.
    >> Dave Cohen

    >
    > I use Elements 5.0, and tried 6.0 as a trial. I didn't see enough
    > of
    > a difference between the two to buy 6.0. There's always one tool in
    > a
    > new version that is nice, but new versions don't offer major change.
    >
    > If you feel comfortable buying a book, do so. That adds $30 to $40
    > to
    > your cost. The price of books on any program is astronomically
    > high.
    > I spent $40 on a Scott Kelby book recently. It was worth it, but it
    > focussed on one particular function of Photoshop (full version):
    > channels.
    >
    > I'd recommend that you start with following some of the many online
    > tutorials for Elements. They are free, and I think you'll find that
    > the tutorials get you started as well as a book would. I do have a
    > book on Elements (Classroom in a Book - $40) that was a gift, but I
    > usually go to an online tutorial if I want additional information on
    > a
    > tool's use. The one advantage of the book is the included CD with
    > examples.


    You think 40 bucks is high, price college texts.

    --
    --
    --John
    to email, dial "usenet" and validate
    (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
     
    J. Clarke, Dec 25, 2008
    #34
  15. Neil Jones

    ray Guest

    On Wed, 24 Dec 2008 18:01:42 -0500, Dave Cohen wrote:

    > Neil Jones wrote:
    >> Hi,
    >>
    >> I am amateur photographer, only up to the point of taking pictures.
    >> For the pictures I shoot, I do not process the pictures or enhance them
    >> with touch ups etc. The pictures that turn out good are printed and
    >> the rest are saved.
    >>
    >> I am planning to purchase Photoshop to enhance the photos. It appears
    >> that Photoshop has a religious following in the photo processing area.
    >> To tell the truth, when I went to the Adobe site I was completely lost.
    >> They have tons of products with varying price ranges. What Photoshop
    >> version(s) are used by the community at large to process and enhance
    >> photos? What would be the price range?
    >>
    >> Thank you in advance for any help.
    >>
    >> Happy Holidays!
    >>
    >> NJ
    >>
    >> PS - What are plugins? Do you need to buy them separately from
    >> Photoshop?

    >
    > PS is a very expensive product with a steep learning curve. It's the
    > standard for professionals, particularly if final output is for
    > professional publication.
    >
    > I've never used elements but understand it's all the normal amateur
    > would need. I've used PhotoPlus and now use PSP9. The latter is almost
    > given away if you can find it. Later versions are distributed by Corel.
    > All the above are really adequate. You can get lots of free stuff, but
    > at some time or other you'll discover layers and for that you will need
    > something a little better than a freebie, which is not to knock the
    > latter. FastStone is great for quick fix ups and cropping.


    Why is that? I find that GIMP does layers adequately.

    >
    > One last point, there is a free and quite powerful product known at The
    > Gimp. Some people seem to love it, I don't. You would need to download a
    > copy and see for yourself.
    > Dave Cohen
     
    ray, Dec 25, 2008
    #35
  16. Neil Jones

    ray Guest

    On Thu, 25 Dec 2008 07:18:21 -0500, Neil Jones wrote:

    > Leo Lichtman wrote:
    >> I started with Photoshop Elements 4, and I was fortunate that just at
    >> the right time, a retired UC professor in my area offered weekly
    >> lessons on it in his home. I want to emphacize this: using a program
    >> that is popular has its advantages. You can find people to talk to,
    >> ask questions and compare experiences with, like I did. We still meet
    >> in this professor's home and discuss our work, even though the
    >> instructional part is over. Being with others who share the same
    >> background and experience is very rewarding; you never stop learning.
    >>
    >>
    >>

    > You hit the main point that had me post this question! I do have GIMP
    > on my system and have used it minimally over the years (only for
    > cropping). Now I want to do a little bit more than cropping the
    > pictures. I know GIMP can do what Adobe PS or Elements is doing. BUT,
    > the support groups/books/classes offered for GIMP are minimal compared
    > to Adobe Photoshop. Yes, the tutorials for GIMP at one or two main
    > websites do not motivate me to do anything creative/enchanements to my
    > pictures. The users on GIMP mailing list/newsgroup either have never
    > been tried what I am trying to accomplish with my photo editing or have
    > the attitude "Go figure it out yourself". Last but least, I am willing
    > to take a class which will teach me how to process pictures. So far
    > that I know, I have not seen anything for GIMP. Photoshop does have
    > quite a few classes. With Photoshop, my main confusion was about the
    > products at their website (Which one do I need?).


    "Beginning GIMP" by Peck is an excellent resource book. "Grokking the
    GIMP" is likewise an excellent and quite comprehensive tutorial.


    >
    > The other software packages, even the ones that came along with my
    > camera really don't interest me in trying to be creative with my
    > pictures.
    >
    > I think I will consider getting Photoshop Elements (in the next few
    > weeks) and consider taking a class.
    >
    > Now, like Leo, I will need to find a university professor or some
    > professional who offers classes locally for Photoshop.
    >
    > NJ
     
    ray, Dec 25, 2008
    #36
  17. Neil Jones

    Paul Furman Guest

    Neil Jones wrote:
    > Leo Lichtman wrote:
    >> I started with Photoshop Elements 4, and I was fortunate that just at the
    >> right time, a retired UC professor in my area offered weekly lessons on it
    >> in his home. I want to emphacize this: using a program that is popular has
    >> its advantages. You can find people to talk to, ask questions and compare
    >> experiences with, like I did. We still meet in this professor's home and
    >> discuss our work, even though the instructional part is over. Being with
    >> others who share the same background and experience is very rewarding; you
    >> never stop learning.
    >>
    >>

    >
    > You hit the main point that had me post this question! I do have GIMP
    > on my system and have used it minimally over the years (only for
    > cropping). Now I want to do a little bit more than cropping the
    > pictures. I know GIMP can do what Adobe PS or Elements is doing. BUT,
    > the support groups/books/classes offered for GIMP are minimal compared
    > to Adobe Photoshop. Yes, the tutorials for GIMP at one or two main
    > websites do not motivate me to do anything creative/enchanements to my
    > pictures. The users on GIMP mailing list/newsgroup either have never
    > been tried what I am trying to accomplish with my photo editing or have
    > the attitude "Go figure it out yourself". Last but least, I am willing
    > to take a class which will teach me how to process pictures. So far
    > that I know, I have not seen anything for GIMP. Photoshop does have
    > quite a few classes. With Photoshop, my main confusion was about the
    > products at their website (Which one do I need?).


    Yep, Elements is a good choice and it is eligible for upgrading should
    you decide to.

    One more possibility that hasn't been discussed is Adobe Lightroom, or
    Picassa is similar if $300 sounds like too much. You really can do
    almost anything for photography in Lightroom including minor cloning &
    locally applied adjustments almost as good as layer masks in photoshop
    but a lot easier to apply to a batch of files. This is a professional
    program though and definitely requires studying to use. Try just playing
    with it & you'll make a mess! :) I'm evaluating a trial copy now and
    I've used photoshop for probably 15 years, only the last 5 years or so
    did I really study it's use for photography.

    I used full photoshop in an office for architectural work (somewhat
    peripheral tool) for years before trying Elements and the first time I
    tried Elements I could not see anything missing.


    > The other software packages, even the ones that came along with my
    > camera really don't interest me in trying to be creative with my pictures.
    >
    > I think I will consider getting Photoshop Elements (in the next few
    > weeks) and consider taking a class.
    >
    > Now, like Leo, I will need to find a university professor or some
    > professional who offers classes locally for Photoshop.


    Check out video tutorials online. That's an incredibly valuable way to
    learn software second only to leaning over the shoulder of an expert.

    --
    Paul Furman
    www.edgehill.net
    www.baynatives.com

    all google groups messages filtered due to spam
     
    Paul Furman, Dec 25, 2008
    #37
  18. Neil Jones

    KatWoman Guest

    "Paul Furman" <> wrote in message
    news:82Q4l.10248$...
    > Neil Jones wrote:
    >> Leo Lichtman wrote:
    >>> I started with Photoshop Elements 4, and I was fortunate that just at
    >>> the right time, a retired UC professor in my area offered weekly lessons
    >>> on it in his home. I want to emphacize this: using a program that is
    >>> popular has its advantages. You can find people to talk to, ask
    >>> questions and compare experiences with, like I did. We still meet in
    >>> this professor's home and discuss our work, even though the
    >>> instructional part is over. Being with others who share the same
    >>> background and experience is very rewarding; you never stop learning.
    >>>

    >>
    >> You hit the main point that had me post this question! I do have GIMP
    >> on my system and have used it minimally over the years (only for
    >> cropping). Now I want to do a little bit more than cropping the
    >> pictures. I know GIMP can do what Adobe PS or Elements is doing. BUT,
    >> the support groups/books/classes offered for GIMP are minimal compared
    >> to Adobe Photoshop. Yes, the tutorials for GIMP at one or two main
    >> websites do not motivate me to do anything creative/enchanements to my
    >> pictures. The users on GIMP mailing list/newsgroup either have never
    >> been tried what I am trying to accomplish with my photo editing or have
    >> the attitude "Go figure it out yourself". Last but least, I am willing
    >> to take a class which will teach me how to process pictures. So far
    >> that I know, I have not seen anything for GIMP. Photoshop does have
    >> quite a few classes. With Photoshop, my main confusion was about the
    >> products at their website (Which one do I need?).

    >
    > Yep, Elements is a good choice and it is eligible for upgrading should you
    > decide to.
    >
    > One more possibility that hasn't been discussed is Adobe Lightroom, or
    > Picassa is similar if $300 sounds like too much. You really can do almost
    > anything for photography in Lightroom including minor cloning & locally
    > applied adjustments almost as good as layer masks in photoshop but a lot
    > easier to apply to a batch of files. This is a professional program though
    > and definitely requires studying to use. Try just playing with it & you'll
    > make a mess! :) I'm evaluating a trial copy now and I've used photoshop
    > for probably 15 years, only the last 5 years or so did I really study it's
    > use for photography.
    >
    > I used full photoshop in an office for architectural work (somewhat
    > peripheral tool) for years before trying Elements and the first time I
    > tried Elements I could not see anything missing.
    >

    SNIP

    Elements I could not see anything missing.

    ELEMENTS has no CMYK functions?

    which unless you will output for professional printing you won't need
    (digital color separations in ink colors)

    The best learning is to open the program
    and try all the tools to see what they do
    just get familiar with the interface
    or if you have a specific goal in mind Google a tutorial and learn one idea
    or correction style at a time

    when you say enhance photos some people just want a bit of control on
    contrast color balance change to BW sepia etc
    and others want to cut out objects blend layers add text make collages paint
    over filter and distort things
    so many things you may not need in the beginning and can add as you go along

    I began with 4.0 PS so many years ago and being self taught I just invented
    crazy ways to achieve my goals
    along the way I began to learn new and better ways to do the same things
    developed better work habits etc
    as people here mentioned PS is not a toy but a powerful set of tools
    so begin to learn to hammer nails and then screw in screws
    later you can re-wire the whole house or maybe even build one from scratch

    it was so much simpler then too I cannot imagine having to open CS3 and just
    learn it
    we are fortunate to have only had to learn changes in the updates as they
    came out
    the program has grown in complexity and range

    like any artwork you don't become a master because you took a course in
    school and learned to hold the brush and mix colors
    it's a lifelong learning and no end to one's creative artistic goals and
    perfecting technique

    so much is out there now in tutorials on line
    even youtube has some good vids on how to retouch etc
    if you prefer step by step school with a teacher maybe most comfortable to
    you
    but my neighbor is a teacher of PS and Elements and sorry to say basically
    he reads a textbook and teaches that lesson
    on stuff he may not know himself coming from web design background

    I advise laying off plug-ins at first, learn how to do all these manually
    most important- file and formats for files
    layers how to work them why to use them
    selections selections selections
    layer adjustments- curves and or levels
     
    KatWoman, Dec 25, 2008
    #38
  19. Neil Jones

    Benny Guest


    >
    > I would strongly suggest that you check out this page:
    >
    > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_raster_graphics_editors
    >
    > It lists most all of the better-known graphic editors. Many of them are
    > freeware
    > and would do more than you will ever need.
    >
    > For someone in your position, anything by Adobe is overkill and a waste of
    > money
    > and time. I personally never use Adobe anything, as there are much better
    > editors out there. A few that would be more than you will ever need are
    > Paint
    > Shop Pro (v9.01 is more than you will need), Zoner Photo Studio,
    > PhotoBrush,
    > IrfanView, PhotoImpact, Serif PhotoPlus, FastStone, and Gimp. Just
    > because
    > others say to use Adobe doesn't mean it's the best. Adobe has been
    > outclassed by
    > many many other editors many years ago. The "pros" just are so used to
    > using
    > outdated Adobe software with last-century features and capabilities that
    > they
    > don't know any better. Stuck in a rut. There is much better software out
    > there
    > now, going on 8 years. You're in a position to learn from the beginning,
    > finding
    > even better software that the trolls and "pros" are unwilling or incapable
    > of
    > learning anew.
    >
    >


    I'm very open to using other graphics software instead of Adobe Photoshop CS
    or Elements.
    Can you please give some examples of what your suggested packages are
    capable of that are lacking in Adobe products.
    regards
    Benny
     
    Benny, Dec 25, 2008
    #39
  20. Neil Jones

    Dave Cohen Guest

    Dave Cohen wrote:
    > Bob Williams wrote:
    >> Neil Jones wrote:
    >>> Hi,
    >>>
    >>> I am amateur photographer, only up to the point of taking pictures. For
    >>> the pictures I shoot, I do not process the pictures or enhance them with
    >>> touch ups etc. The pictures that turn out good are printed and the rest
    >>> are saved.
    >>>
    >>> I am planning to purchase Photoshop to enhance the photos. It appears
    >>> that Photoshop has a religious following in the photo processing area.
    >>> To tell the truth, when I went to the Adobe site I was completely lost.
    >>> They have tons of products with varying price ranges. What Photoshop
    >>> version(s) are used by the community at large to process and enhance
    >>> photos? What would be the price range?
    >>>
    >>> Thank you in advance for any help.
    >>>
    >>> Happy Holidays!
    >>>
    >>> NJ
    >>>
    >>> PS - What are plugins? Do you need to buy them separately from
    >>> Photoshop?

    >>
    >> Full Photoshop is a PROFESSIONAL program.
    >> Although it is extremely powerful and versatile, it is NOT easy to
    >> learn on your own.
    >> Adode assumes that if you put out major bucks for the CS versions, you
    >> are a working professional or serious amateur and you already know
    >> your way around the program.
    >> OTOH, PS Elements is an entry level program for persons like yourself
    >> who are new to digital imaging. Entry level does not mean dumbed down.
    >> PS Elements is extremely powerful and can do almost everything that a
    >> newbie would want to do with full PS. But unlike full PS, Elements
    >> volunteers a lot of help as you work thru the editing process.
    >> Even so, using the tools in any photo editing program is not intuitive.
    >> IMHO, you will need a well written book or manual to help you learn
    >> what the various editing tools do and how to use them.
    >> I suggest that you buy PS Elements 7 and STRONGLY encourage to
    >> purchase a self-help book to go along with it. Over the years I have
    >> used a number of self-help books on using PS and I can recommend the
    >> "Teach Yourself Visually" series as well as the "Classroom in a Book"
    >> series by the Adobe Staff.
    >> Amazon carries both oh these series. For a rank beginner, I would
    >> start with Teach Yourself......" and graduate to "Classroom........"
    >> At Amazon.com, See:
    >> http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Yoursel...=sr_1_4?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1230189028&sr=1-4
    >>
    >>
    >> Bob Williams

    >
    > I just took advantage of that $12 for Elements 6 from Price Grabber, so
    > I'll be able to get a good feel for how it compares to my current PSP 9.
    > All packages do red eye in one way or another, but PSP 9 does it in
    > style, you get to choices on what to replace with, and for animal lovers
    > is has an animal selection which is nice. They get same problem but
    > color is usually other than red.
    > Now at least I should be able to get a decent book or two that relates
    > to what I'm using without having to translate (although much of the time
    > that does work).
    > For $12 the op could play with that at low risk. I looked at some
    > reviews and there doesn't appear to be much lost in 6 from version 7.
    > Dave Cohen

    w
    Whoops, I posted late at night. $12 was for PSP9, Elements is $28 from
    Price Grabber with free shipping available.
    Dave Cohen
     
    Dave Cohen, Dec 26, 2008
    #40
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