Photographing Models

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by n, Nov 20, 2003.

  1. n

    n Guest

    How do people end up getting work photographing models at eg fashion
    shows or for clothing advertisements? Do they just go up to an agency
    and say "Give me a job?".

    Is there anything you can suggest bearing in mind when shooting
    fashion models?
    n, Nov 20, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. (n) writes:

    > How do people end up getting work photographing models at eg fashion
    > shows or for clothing advertisements? Do they just go up to an agency
    > and say "Give me a job?".


    No, they take their portfolios and their list of common acquaintances.

    --
    Philip Stripling | email to the replyto address is presumed
    Legal Assistance on the Web | spam and read later. email to philip@
    http://www.PhilipStripling.com/ | my domain is read daily.
    Phil Stripling, Nov 20, 2003
    #2
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  3. n

    Mark C Guest

    First you need to put together a portfolio....both a digital and print
    portfolio.

    Then you need to get the digital portfolio on line......try the following
    urls for sites that will host your digital portfolio

    www.onemodelplace.com

    www.asouthernsecret.com

    Then you need to approach it like any other job....depending on the kind of
    work you want to do. If you want to work for yourself...set up a studio and
    advertise. If you want to work for an agency, newpaper, magazine, get on
    the horn and get yourself an interview.

    There is a direct relationship between the amount of effort one puts into to
    manifesting what they want and the manifestation of it.

    .......another suggestion is to find a local photographer with good rep and
    thriving business and pick his/her brain.......join a photography club and
    network with other photographers.....

    Ciao,
    Mark C
    Nashville,TN
    Mark C, Nov 20, 2003
    #3
  4. one way is to shoot some of your girlfriends (well, not really), pick the best shots, enlarge them carefully to 8 by 10, and show them to an agency scout. if you're any good, they'll probably put you on an approval assignment.
    it also helps if you're somebody's nephew...

    --
    Yehuda Paradise, Nov 20, 2003
    #4
  5. Re: Photographing Models - trouble in paradise

    "Phil Stripling" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > (n) writes:
    >
    > > How do people end up getting work photographing models at eg fashion
    > > shows or for clothing advertisements? Do they just go up to an agency
    > > and say "Give me a job?".

    >
    > No, they take their portfolios and their list of common acquaintances.
    >

    -----------

    Here's something for your comment Phil from a legal standpoint on the IP and
    copyright issues regarding shooting "models"...what follows is near
    universal UK practice (and I have no doubt follows practice in the US as
    well with model agencies) but note that copyright in the UK is treated as
    property and public policy does not prevent it from being negotiating it
    away: Public policy (UK) on IP [e.g copyright] does, however, tend to
    recognise reasonable time limits favouring the copyright owner as a matter
    of case law. As in the US there are both economic and moral rights attached
    to copyright ownership in the UK but these contracts appear to make a
    mockery of those rights:.

    This is from a model agency (supposedly "standard") contract for the
    "client":

    "COPYRIGHT...
    20. The photographer is not entitled to use any of the images he takes for
    any usage
    beyond that agreed under sections 2, 8, 9 & 17 above. The photographer to
    this
    extent agrees to restrict use of his copyright and, if the model agency
    client is not a
    photographer, the client is to draw these terms and conditions to the
    attention of the
    photographer and obtain his agreement to them before the shoot
    commences...."

    What this amounts to is that the photographer - in production shooting for
    HIS client who then (client) engages the models they want from the agency -
    whilst the photographer who may not even be a signatory party to the
    contract between the "client" and the "agency", is required to subsume his
    copyright to the whims of the agency. There is obviously no quid pro quo
    here. Either agree or don't work.

    I note with great interest that there is NO time limit so this agreement
    would (under an agency's contractual claim) run the full length of the
    copyright term. Also there is NO buyout provision in the contract. Usage
    prohibitions run to include the photographs themselves but also:

    (this is from the same contract form)

    "...reproductions. or adaptations of or drawings therefrom, either complete
    or in part,
    atone [sic] or in conjunction with any wording or drawings, including
    electronic imaging..."

    Under these terms it appears that not only can't the photographer exploit
    his copyright but he can't license the use or any other subsidiary use
    (reproductions. or adaptations of or drawings therefrom, either complete or
    in part, atone [sic] or in conjunction with any wording or drawings,
    including electronic imaging) without paying the agency another fee. The
    collection of such fees could even occur, under the terms of this form of
    contract, long after a model has left the agency; left the modelling
    business; or even after they may have died of old age.

    As an interesting side note to this, in particular, NO ONE has ever been
    able to demonstrate that the agencies ever actually pay the model ANY of
    these residuals - usage or territory fees. The model is paid for his or her
    "appearance" on the day...a flat agreed fee...and thereafter any additional
    fees - appear - to go right into the agency's pocket.

    It strikes me as "unjust enrichment" as follows to contract law theory both
    regarding the usurpation of the photographer's rights as well as those of
    the model. The Rishwain lead class action suit in NY state actually asserts
    a claim of false accounting along these lines - as well as conspiracy to set
    prices - at least with respect to the models that are a party to that class
    action and their work product (specifically...agencies billing the client,
    or receiving fees, in excess of that reported to the model as the fee paid
    for the work assignment - or - conversely - not reporting or disclosing to
    the model the actual amount billed to the client or received from them which
    would, or should, then be the amount from which the agency deducts it's
    fees). The accounting mechanism they use allows them to take 20% [agency
    commission] from the model and bill the client for an excess 20% [agency
    "supplement"] - yielding the agency in excess of 33% gross commission on the
    billing. The US FTC has also launched an anti-trust investigation in the
    same affair - going back for 20 years or more. Agencies do exactly the same
    thing in the UK as well. -- ca 10-15 agencies control 90%+ of the national
    market (in fashion models and particularly at the top end of the market) and
    all belong to an [agent's / agency] association which produced the contract
    terms you are looking at here. In effect they agreed those terms and
    conditions amongst themselves - every body else can take it or leave it -
    but if you leave it you don't work.

    ----

    This is somewhat puzzling as well...if the photographer is given access, eg.
    as an audience attendee, and the "public place" rule applies or the "private
    place invitee rule" applies and the photog is permitted to take photos,
    explicitly or implicitly, but where there is no contractual relationship
    between the photographer and the "client", or the "agency", what's the
    photographer's position on use? Keeping in mind that there is no
    consistently established "image right" in the UK.

    (and again from the same client contract form)

    "FASHION SHOWS...
    17. Payment of the agreed fee confers the right to make use of a model's
    services on
    the catwalk for the specified show and other than for purposes of press
    reporting on
    the show, any other proposed usage of any photograph(s)/film footage taken
    at the
    show must be negotiated and agreed separately with [agency name removed] in
    writing in advance. This includes any photographs taken on behalf or by a
    sponsor of a
    show or any other party in any way associated with the show (to include
    backstage). No contract or models release is binding unless approved in
    writing by [agency name removed] Any other usage must be negotiated at the
    time of booking...."

    ----

    Lastly on testing with models:

    (and again from the same contract form)

    "TEST & EXPERIMENTAL PHOTOGRAPHY...
    19. A photographer is not entitled to use test and experimental photographs
    for
    commercial purposes unless specific arrangements have been made before the
    photographic session...."

    And again, NO time limit...AND no provision for negotiation after the fact
    on usage which may not have been foreseen.

    ----

    A number of photographers here, myself included, have kicked this around
    without ever reaching a satisfactory answer and the professional
    photographer's associations tell us "Just don't sign those contracts!" - but
    failing to sign off means: 1) You won't do any commercial work where models
    are involved; and 2) Agencies will not furnish models for test work.

    Any comment on the IP/copyright questions would be most welcome. Off-list
    if you like.

    Journalist
    journalist-north, Nov 21, 2003
    #5
  6. n

    Annika1980 Guest

    >From: (n)

    >Is there anything you can suggest bearing in mind when shooting
    >fashion models?


    Use a silencer.
    Annika1980, Nov 21, 2003
    #6
  7. n

    Paolo Pizzi Guest

    n wrote:

    > How do people end up getting work photographing models at eg fashion
    > shows or for clothing advertisements? Do they just go up to an agency
    > and say "Give me a job?".


    Screwing art directors (both sexes) usually works wonders,
    especially if the photographer is handsome (again both sexes
    equally apply) and the art director butt ugly. That would easily
    explain how some truly inept unnamed photographers can get
    a lot of work in the fashion industry...

    (Sorry if it's a little too blunt, but it DOES contain at least
    *some* truth...)
    Paolo Pizzi, Nov 21, 2003
    #7
  8. n

    DJ Guest

    > Is there anything you can suggest bearing in mind when shooting
    > fashion models?


    No touching!
    DJ, Nov 21, 2003
    #8
  9. "Paolo Pizzi" <> wrote in message
    news:0Sgvb.37400$...
    > n wrote:
    >


    >
    > Screwing art directors (both sexes) usually works wonders,
    > especially if the photographer is handsome (again both sexes
    > equally apply) and the art director butt ugly. That would easily
    > explain how some truly inept unnamed photographers can get
    > a lot of work in the fashion industry...
    >
    > (Sorry if it's a little too blunt, but it DOES contain at least
    > *some* truth...)
    >

    -----------

    About the same way that the "moddows" get movie and singing deals when they
    can't act or sing.

    It's not what you know it's who you bl*w!

    LOL

    Journalist
    journalist-north, Nov 21, 2003
    #9
  10. In article <>,
    <> wrote:

    > How do people end up getting work photographing models at eg fashion
    > shows or for clothing advertisements? Do they just go up to an agency
    > and say "Give me a job?".


    I did a bit of that type of work many years ago. (I was really more of
    an industrial/product photographer) Three things:

    1. Contacts
    2. Portfolio
    3. Track record.

    First and absolutely foremost, you don't get work unless someone knows
    you. Make friends with anyone you can, with any connection in that
    industry - and develop it from there.

    Next, whoever hires you has to be convnced, and has to cover his butt.
    You have to have a body of credible work (in the same field) to show
    them. "I hired him because he was cheaper/more available than the
    regular guy, and his portfolio looked OK."

    The first assignment is incredibly hard to get. The next much easier
    (assuming you do well), and so forth. If you don't screw up too badly,
    you can ride a reputation for years...<grin> Conversely, an early
    failed job can destroy you - permanently.
    Scott Schuckert, Nov 22, 2003
    #10
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