photo ownership

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Robert, Nov 7, 2004.

  1. Robert

    Robert Guest

    Once a photograph has been placed on a web site, a blog or whatever, does
    the photographer, whether he/she be professional or amateur, lose their
    rights to that photograph by presenting it to the cyber world? I saw some
    beautiful moon shots from one of the contributors to this newsgroup a while
    back and I got to wondering if any publication (i.e. newsprint, mags, etc)
    could DL the shots and use them for their own profit or gain without any
    recognition or compensation for the photographer. Are there laws or
    ethical conditions covering this topic?

    I'm new to digital photography, having just purchased a Pan fz 20, and
    likewise new to this newsgroup, so thank you in advance for your patience if
    this topic has been covered in the past.

    Bob
     
    Robert, Nov 7, 2004
    #1
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  2. Robert

    Mick Brown Guest

    The photographer retains the right to all photographs unless he/she signs
    over the rights to another party. By D/L the photo off the net without
    permission they risk a lawsuit for copyright infringment.


    --
    Michael Brown
    Melbourne Australia
    www.photo.net/photos/mlbrown


    "Robert" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Once a photograph has been placed on a web site, a blog or whatever, does
    > the photographer, whether he/she be professional or amateur, lose their
    > rights to that photograph by presenting it to the cyber world? I saw some
    > beautiful moon shots from one of the contributors to this newsgroup a

    while
    > back and I got to wondering if any publication (i.e. newsprint, mags, etc)
    > could DL the shots and use them for their own profit or gain without any
    > recognition or compensation for the photographer. Are there laws or
    > ethical conditions covering this topic?
    >
    > I'm new to digital photography, having just purchased a Pan fz 20, and
    > likewise new to this newsgroup, so thank you in advance for your patience

    if
    > this topic has been covered in the past.
    >
    > Bob
    >
    >
     
    Mick Brown, Nov 7, 2004
    #2
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  3. Robert

    bob Guest

    "Robert" <> wrote in
    news::

    > Once a photograph has been placed on a web site, a blog or whatever,
    > does the photographer, whether he/she be professional or amateur, lose
    > their rights to that photograph by presenting it to the cyber world?


    NO. In the general case, the photograph retains all rights, regardless of
    where he displays his work. In some specific cases, a website might have
    some language in their TOS that dictates that the photographer give all
    rights in the photo to the website, but then the website would own them,
    and you still could not download them.

    Copyright is automatic and forever (as far as my lifetime is concerned).

    Bob


    --
    Delete the inverse SPAM to reply
     
    bob, Nov 7, 2004
    #3
  4. Robert

    dj_nme Guest

    Mick Brown wrote:
    > The photographer retains the right to all photographs unless he/she signs
    > over the rights to another party. By D/L the photo off the net without
    > permission they risk a lawsuit for copyright infringment.


    Also to watch out for is free web-hosting companies like Geocities,
    which as part of their terms of use claim the copyright to everything
    you put on their server.
     
    dj_nme, Nov 7, 2004
    #4
  5. Robert

    Gaderian Guest

    bob wrote:
    > "Robert" <> wrote in
    > news::
    >> Once a photograph has been placed on a web site, a blog or whatever,
    >> does the photographer, whether he/she be professional or amateur,
    >> lose their rights to that photograph by presenting it to the cyber
    >> world?

    >
    > NO. In the general case, the photograph retains all rights,
    > regardless of where he displays his work. In some specific cases, a
    > website might have some language in their TOS that dictates that the
    > photographer give all rights in the photo to the website, but then
    > the website would own them, and you still could not download them.
    > Copyright is automatic and forever (as far as my lifetime is
    > concerned).
    > Bob

    Ya right.
    I like to see someone try to sue someone in Iraq for downloading from a
    server located Peru.
     
    Gaderian, Nov 7, 2004
    #5
  6. "Robert" <> writes:

    > Once a photograph has been placed on a web site, a blog or whatever,
    > does the photographer, whether he/she be professional or amateur,
    > lose their rights to that photograph by presenting it to the cyber
    > world?


    No, there's no legal loss of rights from publishing a photo on the web
    (or anywhere else).

    Publishing it on the web makes it *possible* for people to steal it
    (at the web resolution) considerably more easily than not publishing
    it; but it doesn't change the *legal* situation.

    > I saw some beautiful moon shots from one of the contributors to this
    > newsgroup a while back and I got to wondering if any publication
    > (i.e. newsprint, mags, etc) could DL the shots and use them for
    > their own profit or gain without any recognition or compensation for
    > the photographer. Are there laws or ethical conditions covering
    > this topic?


    Yes, and the laws mostly match what most people think are the ethical
    conditions, too!

    If you get *caught* using them illegally for gain, at the very least
    you're likely to lose all the profit made. If you're unlucky and the
    photographers did all his paperwork right, you may end up paying
    statutory damages of some small number of tens of thousands of dollars
    per infringement *on top of* losing all the profit you make.

    (Um, that "you" is generic, I'm not suggesting you personally are
    interested in ripping off people's photos.)

    (The situation was somewhat different before 1978; one way was that
    proper copyright notice was vital on published works of any sort. The
    absence of notice could even result in complete loss of copyright
    coverage sometimes. That's one thing that was fixed in that major
    revision of the US copyright laws. So you may have heard, in old
    books or from old people like me, that publishing without copyright
    notice lost you your rights. It doesn't any more.)
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Nov 7, 2004
    #6
  7. Robert

    Bruce Lewis Guest

    "Robert" <> writes:

    > Once a photograph has been placed on a web site, a blog or whatever, does
    > the photographer, whether he/she be professional or amateur, lose their
    > rights to that photograph by presenting it to the cyber world?


    Responding to your subject line, "photo ownership", the photographer
    certainly continues to be the copyright owner. However, publishing on
    the web might create a sort of "implicit license". If you want to
    retain exclusive rights, it would be wise to be explicit about it on the
    pages where they're published.

    > I saw some beautiful moon shots from one of the contributors to this
    > newsgroup a while back and I got to wondering if any publication
    > (i.e. newsprint, mags, etc) could DL the shots and use them for their
    > own profit or gain without any recognition or compensation for the
    > photographer.


    I doubt the implicit license would go that far, but I'm not a lawyer.
    If you are really concerned about it you should probably check with a
    copyright lawyer.

    > Are there laws or ethical conditions covering this topic?


    As for ethics, plagiarism is certainly not ethical. As for laws, Title
    17 covers copyright ownership thoroughly, and you can read and
    understand that yourself. But the "implicit license" part is all case
    law, and you'll never navigate that without a lawyer.

    --
    Make that pile of digital photos presentable: http://ourdoings.com/
    It's quicker and easier than you think.
    Sign up for a 7-day free trial. $6/month thereafter.
     
    Bruce Lewis, Nov 7, 2004
    #7
  8. On Sun, 07 Nov 2004 00:09:10 GMT, "Mick Brown" <>
    wrote:

    >The photographer retains the right to all photographs unless he/she signs
    >over the rights to another party. By D/L the photo off the net without
    >permission they risk a lawsuit for copyright infringment.


    Er ... no. Downloading certainly doesn't constitute a copyright
    infringement. How could you look at the photograph if you don't download
    it? And at least in the Netherlands you may legally print off a copy and
    hang it on your bedroom wall if you want (and if the resolution
    permits).

    But you wouldn't be permitted to hang up a copy in a public place
    (including your own website), and you wouldn't of course be permitted to
    use the photograph for profit.

    --
    Stephen Poley
     
    Stephen Poley, Nov 7, 2004
    #8
  9. Robert wrote:
    > Once a photograph has been placed on a web site, a blog or whatever,
    > does the photographer, whether he/she be professional or amateur,
    > lose their rights to that photograph by presenting it to the cyber
    > world? I saw some beautiful moon shots from one of the contributors
    > to this newsgroup a while back and I got to wondering if any
    > publication (i.e. newsprint, mags, etc) could DL the shots and use
    > them for their own profit or gain without any recognition or
    > compensation for the photographer. Are there laws or ethical
    > conditions covering this topic?

    [snip]

    (I won't repeat what Stephen Poley said).

    A key problem is that quality publications want far better resolution than web
    photographs. A publication may want about 300 pixels per inch, for perhaps a
    few inches each way. Perhaps 1800 by 1200 pixels or more, and without
    compression. While a web photograph may be (say) 700 by 500, with compression.

    One person breached my copyright in a way that I didn't object to. He copied a
    *thumbnail*, and used it in one of his galleries (annotated with my name, so
    it wasn't a "framing" issue), where it linked to the same page on my site that
    I link it to. (He wanted a gallery of photographs of a giraffes). By copying
    the thumbnail, he avoided stealing my bandwidth. By (deep-)linking to my own
    page that contained the full-size photograph, anyone who was interested could
    get in touch with me.
    http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/giraffe/4-3.html

    (I'll change my rules to permit anyone to do this).

    --
    Barry Pearson
    http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/
    http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/
     
    Barry Pearson, Nov 7, 2004
    #9
  10. Robert

    bob Guest

    "Gaderian" <> wrote in news:RGfjd.32270$OD3.1642633
    @news20.bellglobal.com:

    > Ya right.
    > I like to see someone try to sue someone in Iraq for downloading from a
    > server located Peru.
    >
    >


    The original poster didn't ask if he would get caught doing something he
    shouldn't. He asked if it was ok, and the answer is "no."

    I strongly suspect though, that if an actual publication started publishing
    photos from the web without permission, that they would get sued,
    regardless of where they are located, excepting perhaps North Korea, and
    Iraq (for the time being).

    Bob

    --
    Delete the inverse SPAM to reply
     
    bob, Nov 7, 2004
    #10
  11. Robert

    Robert Guest

    I would like to thank all of you for your thoughtful and well reasoned
    responses to my question of "photo ownership". My intentions regarding web
    photographs are not to steal them but to sometime in the near future place
    some my photographs on a 'site' for my business and on the web site of a
    rowing club of which I belong. After viewing some of the work presented
    here by some of you, like Mr. Brown and Mr. Pearson to name a couple, I
    realize I have a long way to go to attain a level of quality.

    So thanks to all of you who are willing to share your work here and, again,
    thanks for all your thoughtful and patient responses.

    Bob










    __________________________________________________________________
    "Barry Pearson" <> wrote in message
    news:Q2njd.50$...
    > Robert wrote:
    >> Once a photograph has been placed on a web site, a blog or whatever,
    >> does the photographer, whether he/she be professional or amateur,
    >> lose their rights to that photograph by presenting it to the cyber
    >> world? I saw some beautiful moon shots from one of the contributors
    >> to this newsgroup a while back and I got to wondering if any
    >> publication (i.e. newsprint, mags, etc) could DL the shots and use
    >> them for their own profit or gain without any recognition or
    >> compensation for the photographer. Are there laws or ethical
    >> conditions covering this topic?

    > [snip]
    >
    > (I won't repeat what Stephen Poley said).
    >
    > A key problem is that quality publications want far better resolution than
    > web
    > photographs. A publication may want about 300 pixels per inch, for perhaps
    > a
    > few inches each way. Perhaps 1800 by 1200 pixels or more, and without
    > compression. While a web photograph may be (say) 700 by 500, with
    > compression.
    >
    > One person breached my copyright in a way that I didn't object to. He
    > copied a
    > *thumbnail*, and used it in one of his galleries (annotated with my name,
    > so
    > it wasn't a "framing" issue), where it linked to the same page on my site
    > that
    > I link it to. (He wanted a gallery of photographs of a giraffes). By
    > copying
    > the thumbnail, he avoided stealing my bandwidth. By (deep-)linking to my
    > own
    > page that contained the full-size photograph, anyone who was interested
    > could
    > get in touch with me.
    > http://www.isidore-of-seville.com/giraffe/4-3.html
    >
    > (I'll change my rules to permit anyone to do this).
    >
    > --
    > Barry Pearson
    > http://www.Barry.Pearson.name/photography/
    > http://www.BirdsAndAnimals.info/
    >
    >
     
    Robert, Nov 7, 2004
    #11
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