Photo editing

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Pablo, Mar 6, 2013.

  1. Pablo

    Pablo Guest

    Pablo, Mar 6, 2013
    #1
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  2. Pablo

    Rob Guest

    On 6/03/2013 11:10 PM, Pablo wrote:
    > Ok.
    >
    > Recently bought Elements and now having a play.
    >
    > I used to use Canon's DPP and scale with the Gimp.
    >
    > I thought I'd take a fresh look at some old photos.
    >
    > http://s787.beta.photobucket.com/user/pablo_guiri/library/Crane/Gimp
    >
    > I thought that looked sort of OK.
    >
    > Had another go at making it "nicer" in PSE.
    >
    > http://s787.beta.photobucket.com/user/pablo_guiri/library/Crane/PS
    >
    > So, which is "best"?
    >
    > Or should I just take up knitting?
    >
    >



    The closer one needs straightening
     
    Rob, Mar 6, 2013
    #2
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  3. Pablo

    Pablo Guest

    Rob wrote:

    > On 6/03/2013 11:10 PM, Pablo wrote:


    >> http://s787.beta.photobucket.com/user/pablo_guiri/library/Crane/Gimp
    >>
    >> I thought that looked sort of OK.
    >>
    >> Had another go at making it "nicer" in PSE.
    >>
    >> http://s787.beta.photobucket.com/user/pablo_guiri/library/Crane/PS
    >>
    >> So, which is "best"?
    >>
    >> Or should I just take up knitting?
    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    > The closer one needs straightening


    Yes, I straightened it in PSE, but I'm convinced it lost some resolution in
    the act.

    --
    Pablo

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/
    http://paulc.es/
     
    Pablo, Mar 6, 2013
    #3
  4. Pablo

    Pablo Guest

    Savageduck wrote:

    > Hi Paul, we haven't heard from you in a while.


    Haven't been taking piccies lately. Partly busy with a house I've bought and
    partly the weather has been shite of late. Haven't cycled either.

    > "Best" is kind of subjective


    Heh. That's why I put it in quotes :)

    > given that the work flow you are
    > accustomed to is the one you have been using with DPP + GIMP. I am sure
    > that the ACR + PSE is different for you and there is much to learn
    > regarding the tools now available to you.


    I've revisited a few old snaps and after half an hour of implementing what
    I've read/watched in the tutorials, I have something no more pleasing to my
    eye than the original.

    > Remember there are two parts to this frustrating hobby, photography.
    > The first being the capture and whatever composition you achieve
    > in-camera. Then there is post processing and using whatever tools you
    > have available, and learning to use them efectively.


    My composure remains awful. I just don't seem to have acquired "the eye"
    yet.

    > With PSE you have a pretty good set of post processing tools with a
    > learning curve not quite as steep as that with GIMP or Photoshop CS. I
    > would be a little more selective with your selection of shot to
    > revisit. I seem to remember some of your oak, village, bar and
    > restaurant shots which had promise. However do not think that PSE or
    > GIMP are going to fix some of the basic issues such as exposure, focus,
    > and/or in-camera composition that some of those images had.


    I'm going to start getting out again. Start from scratch. I even have a
    wedding to shoot next month in Gibraltar. Youngest daughter getting hitched.


    > However I think you should revisit some of your capture sites up in the
    > mountains


    Actually, I did just recently.

    > at the coast and generally capture some fresh images to work
    > with with some goals in mind for them. One thing to remember, if you
    > are going to do a fair amount of work in post try and give yourself
    > some room around your subject when framing in your viewfinder, check
    > your background for distractions, and especially in that harsh
    > Mediterranean light try to shoot well before midday and in the late
    > afternoon.


    Taken on board. I think I'm going to have to face the fact that my stuff
    will always require pretty heavy editing.

    > A circular polarizing filter would be a useful accessory for shots such
    > as your trout capture.


    Yes. It was in the bag. I forgot to attach it. I have filters for all my
    lenses, and rarely remember to fit the bloomin' things.

    > Then there are masses of tutorials available online on Youtube etc.


    I've followed some stuff on AdobeTV etc.

    I just added a dog photo (to my flickr) from just over a year ago.

    I quite like it, but just can't seem to tone down the dog's body without
    losing facial detail.

    Ah, I can hear somebody saying "mask".

    Next time.

    Cheers.


    --
    Pablo

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/
    http://paulc.es/
     
    Pablo, Mar 6, 2013
    #4
  5. Pablo

    Tony Cooper Guest

    On Wed, 6 Mar 2013 06:14:08 -0800, Savageduck
    <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> wrote:

    >
    >I would also suggest getting a book on PSE ( I am making the assumption
    >that you have PSE 11) and my suggestion is the Scott Kelby, Matt
    >Kloskowski, "Photoshop Elements 11 for the Digital Photographer" it is
    >available via Amazon at lower prices than from Kelby Training.
    ><
    >http://kelbytraining.com/product/the-adobe-photoshop-elements-11-book-for-digital-photographers/
    >>

    >
    >Then there are masses of tutorials available online on Youtube etc.
    >

    I'm off books on any Adobe product. I have a shelf full of books on
    various versions of Adobe products, and that represents a rather large
    financial output. No more books will go on that shelf.

    I recommend buying a second monitor and using online tutorials. I put
    the tutorial up on one screen and try the technique on the main
    screen. It's a one-time expense compared to the continuing expense of
    buying books. I bought a used NEC monitor for $45 from a store that
    sells computer stuff from companies that have gone out of business or
    upgraded. My last Kelby book was almost that much.

    I've learned a great deal from books by Kelby, Koslowski, Evening,
    etc, but all they do is add a few new chapters on new features and pad
    the book with the basics from their old books.

    There is no feature in any Adobe product that is not explained in an
    online tutorial. Usually, there are several versions so the reader
    can pick the one that is most understandable to them.

    Earlier this week I followed the Snapfactory
    http://blog.snapfactory.com
    tutorial on black and white http://blog.snapfactory.com/?p=1833
    and picked up a few pointers on conversion techniques. This is just
    one of hundreds of online tutorials.



    --
    Tony Cooper - Orlando FL
     
    Tony Cooper, Mar 6, 2013
    #5
  6. Pablo

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Wed, 06 Mar 2013 14:42:48 +0100, Pablo <> wrote:
    : Rob wrote:
    :
    : > On 6/03/2013 11:10 PM, Pablo wrote:
    :
    : >> http://s787.beta.photobucket.com/user/pablo_guiri/library/Crane/Gimp
    : >>
    : >> I thought that looked sort of OK.
    : >>
    : >> Had another go at making it "nicer" in PSE.
    : >>
    : >> http://s787.beta.photobucket.com/user/pablo_guiri/library/Crane/PS
    : >>
    : >> So, which is "best"?
    : >>
    : >> Or should I just take up knitting?
    : >>
    : >>
    : >
    : >
    : > The closer one needs straightening
    :
    : Yes, I straightened it in PSE, but I'm convinced it lost some resolution
    : in the act.

    You can't straighten without loss of fidelity. Whether that translates into
    loss of resolution is in the eye of the beholder. By which I don't mean it
    isn't real. I just mean that some people will see it; others won't.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Mar 7, 2013
    #6
  7. Pablo

    Pablo Guest

    Savageduck wrote:

    > On 2013-03-06 18:09:49 -0800, Robert Coe <> said:
    >
    >> On Wed, 06 Mar 2013 14:42:48 +0100, Pablo <> wrote:
    >> : Rob wrote:
    >> :
    >> : > On 6/03/2013 11:10 PM, Pablo wrote:
    >> :
    >> : >> http://s787.beta.photobucket.com/user/pablo_guiri/library/Crane/Gimp
    >> : >>
    >> : >> I thought that looked sort of OK.
    >> : >>
    >> : >> Had another go at making it "nicer" in PSE.
    >> : >>
    >> : >> http://s787.beta.photobucket.com/user/pablo_guiri/library/Crane/PS
    >> : >>
    >> : >> So, which is "best"?
    >> : >>
    >> : >> Or should I just take up knitting?
    >> : >>
    >> : >>
    >> : >
    >> : >
    >> : > The closer one needs straightening
    >> :
    >> : Yes, I straightened it in PSE, but I'm convinced it lost some
    >> : resolution in the act.
    >>
    >> You can't straighten without loss of fidelity. Whether that translates
    >> into loss of resolution is in the eye of the beholder. By which I don't
    >> mean it isn't real. I just mean that some people will see it; others
    >> won't.
    >>
    >> Bob

    >
    > Just another good reason to work in 16-bit RAW (You can straighten in
    > ACR) until that final "Save as" to an 8-bit JPEG.
    >


    Oh. I hadn't realised that.

    --
    Pablo

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/
    http://paulc.es/
     
    Pablo, Mar 7, 2013
    #7
  8. Pablo

    Pablo Guest

    Pablo, Mar 7, 2013
    #8
  9. Pablo

    otter Guest

    On Mar 6, 6:10 am, Pablo <> wrote:
    > Ok.
    >
    > Recently bought Elements and now having a play.
    >
    > I used to use Canon's DPP and scale with the Gimp.
    >
    > I thought I'd take a fresh look at some old photos.
    >
    > http://s787.beta.photobucket.com/user/pablo_guiri/library/Crane/Gimp
    >
    > I thought that looked sort of OK.
    >
    > Had another go at making it "nicer" in PSE.
    >
    > http://s787.beta.photobucket.com/user/pablo_guiri/library/Crane/PS
    >
    > So, which is "best"?
    >
    > Or should I just take up knitting?
    >
    > --
    > Pablo
    >
    > http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/http://paulc.es/


    Blue skies are overrated. Do you have a RAW file we can play with?
    Or even a large JPEG?
     
    otter, Mar 7, 2013
    #9
  10. Pablo

    Pablo Guest

    Pablo, Mar 7, 2013
    #10
  11. Pablo

    Pablo Guest

    Pablo, Mar 8, 2013
    #11
  12. Pablo

    otter Guest

    On Mar 8, 3:23 am, Pablo <> wrote:
    > Pablo wrote:
    > > otter wrote:

    >
    > >> Blue skies are overrated.  Do you have a RAW file we can play with?
    > >> Or even a large JPEG?

    >
    > > Be my guest, but my upload speed is only about 800k from here, and the
    > > file is 9MB.

    >
    > >http://paulc.es/tmp/IMG_6083.CR2

    >
    > That directory gets backed up, so I'll be removing that file some time
    > today.
    >
    > --
    > Pablo
    >
    > http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/http://paulc.es/


    That link didn't work for me. Any way to put it in dropbox? If it is
    too much trouble, no big deal.
     
    otter, Mar 8, 2013
    #12
  13. Pablo

    Pablo Guest

    otter wrote:

    > On Mar 8, 3:23 am, Pablo <> wrote:
    >> Pablo wrote:
    >> > otter wrote:

    >>
    >> >> Blue skies are overrated. Do you have a RAW file we can play with?
    >> >> Or even a large JPEG?

    >>
    >> > Be my guest, but my upload speed is only about 800k from here, and the
    >> > file is 9MB.

    >>
    >> >http://paulc.es/tmp/IMG_6083.CR2

    >>
    >> That directory gets backed up, so I'll be removing that file some time
    >> today.


    > That link didn't work for me. Any way to put it in dropbox? If it is
    > too much trouble, no big deal.


    https://dl.dropbox.com/u/28266593/IMG_6083.CR2

    Although, if the other link "didn't work" for you then I don't suppose this
    one will either. I just clicked on the other link amd the image opened up in
    "Shotwell" image viewer.

    --
    Pablo

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/
    http://paulc.es/
     
    Pablo, Mar 8, 2013
    #13
  14. Pablo

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Thu, 7 Mar 2013 04:32:14 -0800, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
    wrote:
    : On 2013-03-07 03:48:31 -0800, Pablo <> said:
    :
    : > Savageduck wrote:
    :
    : >>
    : >> Just another good reason to work in 16-bit RAW (You can straighten in
    : >> ACR) until that final "Save as" to an 8-bit JPEG.
    : >>
    : >
    : > Oh. I hadn't realised that.
    :
    : When you open a RAW file in PSE you will first be led through ACR. On
    : the upper left of the ACR window you will see tools for straightening,
    : cropping, red-eye, etc. Those edits will be non-damaging

    Care with terminology is required here. The edits are non-damaging if they're
    recorded as addenda to the image and can be removed (not just computationally
    reversed) so as to leave all original values unchanged. This is, I believe,
    typical of RAW-mode editors. But as soon as you save the image in a different
    format (JPEG, for example), you have permanently incorporated the roundoff
    error generated by application of the changes to the RAW image, as well as by
    the conversion itself. To a first approximation, this doesn't matter at all if
    the computations were done in 16-bit and the result is an 8-bit JPEG. But
    roundoff error can grow surprisingly rapidly, and calculation of its effects
    is one of the deeper topics of applied mathematics. So if you manhandle the
    image enough, even in RAW, you may visibly degrade the final product.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Mar 8, 2013
    #14
  15. Pablo

    otter Guest

    On Mar 8, 5:28 am, Pablo <> wrote:
    > otter wrote:
    > > On Mar 8, 3:23 am, Pablo <> wrote:
    > >> Pablo wrote:
    > >> > otter wrote:

    >
    > >> >> Blue skies are overrated.  Do you have a RAW file we can play with?
    > >> >> Or even a large JPEG?

    >
    > >> > Be my guest, but my upload speed is only about 800k from here, and the
    > >> > file is 9MB.

    >
    > >> >http://paulc.es/tmp/IMG_6083.CR2

    >
    > >> That directory gets backed up, so I'll be removing that file some time
    > >> today.

    > > That link didn't work for me.  Any way to put it in dropbox?  If itis
    > > too much trouble, no big deal.

    >
    > https://dl.dropbox.com/u/28266593/IMG_6083.CR2
    >
    > Although, if the other link "didn't work" for you then I don't suppose this
    > one will either. I just clicked on the other link amd the image opened upin
    > "Shotwell" image viewer.
    >
    > --
    > Pablo
    >
    > http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/http://paulc.es/


    That worked, and downloaded pretty quickly. I'll play around with it
    this weekend when I get some time.

    The bird's head is not in focus, so the picture has limited potential
    to be cropped very tightly.

    What did you want to convey with this picture?
     
    otter, Mar 8, 2013
    #15
  16. Pablo

    Pablo Guest

    otter wrote:

    > The bird's head is not in focus, so the picture has limited potential
    > to be cropped very tightly.


    It was at several hundred metres without tripod with the lens at 400mm. I
    didn't think I'd done that badly.

    > What did you want to convey with this picture?


    Erm, did you see the start of this thread? The thread is actually about my
    move from Gimp to PSE. Playing, really.

    It seems my composure and focussing etc. are somewhat shite, so I need to
    learn how to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear.

    --
    Pablo

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/
    http://paulc.es/
     
    Pablo, Mar 8, 2013
    #16
  17. Pablo

    Pablo Guest

    Savageduck wrote:

    > On 2013-03-08 06:25:26 -0800, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
    > said:
    >
    >> On 2013-03-08 03:28:04 -0800, Pablo <> said:
    >>
    >>> otter wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> On Mar 8, 3:23 am, Pablo <> wrote:
    >>>>> Pablo wrote:
    >>>>>> otter wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>>> Blue skies are overrated. Do you have a RAW file we can play with?
    >>>>>>> Or even a large JPEG?
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> Be my guest, but my upload speed is only about 800k from here, and
    >>>>>> the file is 9MB.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> http://paulc.es/tmp/IMG_6083.CR2
    >>>>>
    >>>>> That directory gets backed up, so I'll be removing that file some time
    >>>>> today.
    >>>
    >>>> That link didn't work for me. Any way to put it in dropbox? If it is
    >>>> too much trouble, no big deal.
    >>>
    >>> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/28266593/IMG_6083.CR2
    >>>
    >>> Although, if the other link "didn't work" for you then I don't suppose
    >>> this one will either. I just clicked on the other link amd the image
    >>> opened up in "Shotwell" image viewer.

    >>
    >> That worked just fine. Click on the link and the CR2 downloaded PDQ.
    >> I will play & return a result.

    >
    > OK!
    >
    > I straightened and adjusted in Lightroom 4 and then moved to CS5 to add
    > my final touch for crop and frame/border addition.
    >
    > So what you have here is an 8-bit jpeg of the straightened, adjusted
    > and uncropped image.
    > Next is the 16-bit DNG exported from LR.
    > ...and finally a cropped and finished jpeg.
    > < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/IMG_6083-Edit-1w.jpg >
    > < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/IMG_6083-Edit.dng >
    > < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/IMG_6083-Edit2w.jpg >
    >
    >


    I'll have to try that workflow. I bought Lightroom and didn't know what I
    was going to do with it. Is it better than Camera Raw for raw stuff? Or is
    it just that you are used to it?

    --
    Pablo

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/
    http://paulc.es/
     
    Pablo, Mar 8, 2013
    #17
  18. Pablo

    Pablo Guest

    Savageduck wrote:

    > On 2013-03-08 07:13:16 -0800, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
    > said:
    >
    >> On 2013-03-08 06:25:26 -0800, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
    >> said:
    >>
    >>> On 2013-03-08 03:28:04 -0800, Pablo <> said:
    >>>
    >>>> otter wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> On Mar 8, 3:23 am, Pablo <> wrote:
    >>>>>> Pablo wrote:
    >>>>>>> otter wrote:
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Blue skies are overrated. Do you have a RAW file we can play with?
    >>>>>>>> Or even a large JPEG?
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> Be my guest, but my upload speed is only about 800k from here, and
    >>>>>>> the file is 9MB.
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>>> http://paulc.es/tmp/IMG_6083.CR2
    >>>>>>
    >>>>>> That directory gets backed up, so I'll be removing that file some
    >>>>>> time today.
    >>>>
    >>>>> That link didn't work for me. Any way to put it in dropbox? If it is
    >>>>> too much trouble, no big deal.
    >>>>
    >>>> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/28266593/IMG_6083.CR2
    >>>>
    >>>> Although, if the other link "didn't work" for you then I don't suppose
    >>>> this one will either. I just clicked on the other link amd the image
    >>>> opened up in "Shotwell" image viewer.
    >>>
    >>> That worked just fine. Click on the link and the CR2 downloaded PDQ.
    >>> I will play & return a result.

    >>
    >> OK!
    >>
    >> I straightened and adjusted in Lightroom 4 and then moved to CS5 to add
    >> my final touch for crop and frame/border addition.
    >>
    >> So what you have here is an 8-bit jpeg of the straightened, adjusted
    >> and uncropped image.
    >> Next is the 16-bit DNG exported from LR.
    >> ...and finally a cropped and finished jpeg.
    >> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/IMG_6083-Edit-1w.jpg >
    >> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/IMG_6083-Edit.dng >
    >> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/IMG_6083-Edit2w.jpg >

    >
    > ...and here is a side-by-side comparison.
    > < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_153.jpg >
    >


    Right, as an excercise, I'll see if I can match that :)

    --
    Pablo

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/
    http://paulc.es/
     
    Pablo, Mar 8, 2013
    #18
  19. Pablo

    Robert Coe Guest

    On Fri, 08 Mar 2013 12:28:04 +0100, Pablo <> wrote:
    : otter wrote:
    :
    : > On Mar 8, 3:23 am, Pablo <> wrote:
    : >> Pablo wrote:
    : >> > otter wrote:
    : >>
    : >> >> Blue skies are overrated. Do you have a RAW file we can play with?
    : >> >> Or even a large JPEG?
    : >>
    : >> > Be my guest, but my upload speed is only about 800k from here, and the
    : >> > file is 9MB.
    : >>
    : >> >http://paulc.es/tmp/IMG_6083.CR2
    : >>
    : >> That directory gets backed up, so I'll be removing that file some time
    : >> today.
    :
    : > That link didn't work for me. Any way to put it in dropbox? If it is
    : > too much trouble, no big deal.
    :
    : https://dl.dropbox.com/u/28266593/IMG_6083.CR2
    :
    : Although, if the other link "didn't work" for you then I don't suppose this
    : one will either. I just clicked on the other link amd the image opened up in
    : "Shotwell" image viewer.

    I was able to read the second link and edited the picture with DPP. It came
    out a lot better if I do say so. ;^) I was about to email it to you, but I
    see that your email address is bogus. Mine isn't, so if you send me your real
    one, I'll send you the edited image.

    Bob
     
    Robert Coe, Mar 8, 2013
    #19
  20. Pablo

    Pablo Guest

    Pablo wrote:

    > Savageduck wrote:
    >
    >> On 2013-03-08 07:13:16 -0800, Savageduck <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com>
    >> said:
    >>
    >>> On 2013-03-08 06:25:26 -0800, Savageduck
    >>> <savageduck1@{REMOVESPAM}me.com> said:
    >>>
    >>>> On 2013-03-08 03:28:04 -0800, Pablo <> said:
    >>>>
    >>>>> otter wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> On Mar 8, 3:23 am, Pablo <> wrote:
    >>>>>>> Pablo wrote:
    >>>>>>>> otter wrote:
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>> Blue skies are overrated. Do you have a RAW file we can play
    >>>>>>>>> with? Or even a large JPEG?
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> Be my guest, but my upload speed is only about 800k from here, and
    >>>>>>>> the file is 9MB.
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>> http://paulc.es/tmp/IMG_6083.CR2
    >>>>>>>
    >>>>>>> That directory gets backed up, so I'll be removing that file some
    >>>>>>> time today.
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> That link didn't work for me. Any way to put it in dropbox? If it
    >>>>>> is too much trouble, no big deal.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> https://dl.dropbox.com/u/28266593/IMG_6083.CR2
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Although, if the other link "didn't work" for you then I don't suppose
    >>>>> this one will either. I just clicked on the other link amd the image
    >>>>> opened up in "Shotwell" image viewer.
    >>>>
    >>>> That worked just fine. Click on the link and the CR2 downloaded PDQ.
    >>>> I will play & return a result.
    >>>
    >>> OK!
    >>>
    >>> I straightened and adjusted in Lightroom 4 and then moved to CS5 to add
    >>> my final touch for crop and frame/border addition.
    >>>
    >>> So what you have here is an 8-bit jpeg of the straightened, adjusted
    >>> and uncropped image.
    >>> Next is the 16-bit DNG exported from LR.
    >>> ...and finally a cropped and finished jpeg.
    >>> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/IMG_6083-Edit-1w.jpg >
    >>> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/IMG_6083-Edit.dng >
    >>> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/IMG_6083-Edit2w.jpg >

    >>
    >> ...and here is a side-by-side comparison.
    >> < https://dl.dropbox.com/u/1295663/FileChute/screenshot_153.jpg >
    >>

    >
    > Right, as an excercise, I'll see if I can match that :)
    >


    It's slowwwww...

    --
    Pablo

    http://www.flickr.com/photos/wibbleypants/
    http://paulc.es/
     
    Pablo, Mar 8, 2013
    #20
    1. Advertising

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