phones on trademe

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by thingy, Jun 20, 2009.

  1. thingy

    thingy Guest

    Looking around for a basic / cheap mobile phone so I wandered about
    the usual shops, DSE, Noel Leemings...etc....empty holders....no price
    tags, crap base models....the cheapest with a USB connector was
    $349...

    Hmm so wandered around trademe maybe a 1/2 decent one there....wow!
    literally hundreds of new chinese phones....hrmmmm....selling with two
    batteries...so are the batteries that bad I wonder?

    The "mini" looks neat, a smaller iPhone for <$200.....Ok so it wont do
    iTunes....like I care....watch TV on them....

    So are any worth buying or are they real rubbish?

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Jun 20, 2009
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. thingy

    Woger Guest

    On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:39:36 -0700 (PDT), thingy <>
    wrote:

    >Looking around for a basic / cheap mobile phone so I wandered about
    >the usual shops, DSE, Noel Leemings...etc....empty holders....no price
    >tags, crap base models....the cheapest with a USB connector was
    >$349...
    >
    >Hmm so wandered around trademe maybe a 1/2 decent one there....wow!
    >literally hundreds of new chinese phones....hrmmmm....selling with two
    >batteries...so are the batteries that bad I wonder?
    >
    >The "mini" looks neat, a smaller iPhone for <$200.....Ok so it wont do
    >iTunes....like I care....watch TV on them....
    >
    >So are any worth buying or are they real rubbish?
    >
    >regards
    >
    >Thing




    You are Joking..?

    Yes you buy it get it home and it does not work, so what now.?

    Go for a brand Not junk, Plus do you really need all those Costly 3G features
    that you will never use..
     
    Woger, Jun 21, 2009
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. thingy

    thingy Guest

    On Jun 21, 11:55 am, Woger <> wrote:
    > On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:39:36 -0700 (PDT), thingy <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    > >Looking around for a basic / cheap mobile phone so I wandered about
    > >the usual shops, DSE, Noel Leemings...etc....empty holders....no price
    > >tags, crap base models....the cheapest with a USB connector was
    > >$349...

    >
    > >Hmm so wandered around trademe maybe a 1/2 decent one there....wow!
    > >literally hundreds of new chinese phones....hrmmmm....selling with two
    > >batteries...so are the batteries that bad I wonder?

    >
    > >The "mini" looks neat, a smaller iPhone for <$200.....Ok so it wont do
    > >iTunes....like I care....watch TV on them....

    >
    > >So are any worth buying or are they real rubbish?

    >
    > >regards

    >
    > >Thing

    >
    > You are Joking..?


    Usual shoot from the hip, Woger......some of these sellers have
    several hundreds of positive feedbacks.....

    > Yes you buy it get it home and it does not work, so what now.?


    Most have a 30 day to 3 month warrantee...if it does not work I send
    it back....given the feedback for the sellers a non-working phone
    seems unlikely....some sellers have like 1400 positive feedbacks...

    > Go for a brand Not junk, Plus do you really need all those Costly 3G features
    > that you will never use..


    I should have been more clear, I was asking generically....mostly
    agree, Im considering known brands only....

    However some of the "no-name" brands are not no name in China....

    3G does have its uses with care....I have found it useful if you need
    to check email and cant find an Internet cafe, or if they are
    closed....cafe's also of course have security concerns....and with 3G
    you can choose which place to get a coffee from and not the crap an
    Internet cafes usually serve....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Jun 21, 2009
    #3
  4. thingy

    Woger Guest

    On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 17:54:36 -0700 (PDT), thingy <>
    wrote:

    >On Jun 21, 11:55 am, Woger <> wrote:
    >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:39:36 -0700 (PDT), thingy <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> >Looking around for a basic / cheap mobile phone so I wandered about
    >> >the usual shops, DSE, Noel Leemings...etc....empty holders....no price
    >> >tags, crap base models....the cheapest with a USB connector was
    >> >$349...

    >>
    >> >Hmm so wandered around trademe maybe a 1/2 decent one there....wow!
    >> >literally hundreds of new chinese phones....hrmmmm....selling with two
    >> >batteries...so are the batteries that bad I wonder?

    >>
    >> >The "mini" looks neat, a smaller iPhone for <$200.....Ok so it wont do
    >> >iTunes....like I care....watch TV on them....

    >>
    >> >So are any worth buying or are they real rubbish?

    >>
    >> >regards

    >>
    >> >Thing

    >>
    >> You are Joking..?

    >
    >Usual shoot from the hip, Woger......some of these sellers have
    >several hundreds of positive feedbacks.....
    >
    >> Yes you buy it get it home and it does not work, so what now.?

    >
    >Most have a 30 day to 3 month warrantee...if it does not work I send
    >it back....given the feedback for the sellers a non-working phone
    >seems unlikely....some sellers have like 1400 positive feedbacks...




    But how long will that Take if I buy from a local shop I can get its replaced
    with in hours.

    >> Go for a brand Not junk, Plus do you really need all those Costly 3G features
    >> that you will never use..

    >
    >I should have been more clear, I was asking generically....mostly
    >agree, Im considering known brands only....
    >
    >However some of the "no-name" brands are not no name in China....
    >
    >3G does have its uses with care....I have found it useful if you need
    >to check email and cant find an Internet cafe, or if they are
    >closed....cafe's also of course have security concerns....and with 3G
    >you can choose which place to get a coffee from and not the crap an
    >Internet cafes usually serve....




    You have to Pay heaps for 3G here, I can do emails on my Phone with out 3G..

    Again 3G is a Big oversell and its far to costly here..


    >regards
    >
    >Thing
     
    Woger, Jun 21, 2009
    #4
  5. thingy

    Richard Guest

    thingy wrote:
    > Looking around for a basic / cheap mobile phone so I wandered about
    > the usual shops, DSE, Noel Leemings...etc....empty holders....no price
    > tags, crap base models....the cheapest with a USB connector was
    > $349...
    >
    > Hmm so wandered around trademe maybe a 1/2 decent one there....wow!
    > literally hundreds of new chinese phones....hrmmmm....selling with two
    > batteries...so are the batteries that bad I wonder?
    >
    > The "mini" looks neat, a smaller iPhone for <$200.....Ok so it wont do
    > iTunes....like I care....watch TV on them....
    >
    > So are any worth buying or are they real rubbish?


    hardware is ok on some of them..

    THe software however - and good luck ever seeing a firmware upgrade on
    chinese electronics..


    Why do you need a USB connector on a phone - a basic one will have
    nothing that needs it...
     
    Richard, Jun 21, 2009
    #5
  6. thingy

    thingy Guest

    On Jun 21, 3:27 pm, Richard <> wrote:
    > thingy wrote:
    > > Looking around for a basic / cheap mobile phone so I wandered about
    > > the usual shops, DSE, Noel Leemings...etc....empty holders....no price
    > > tags, crap base models....the cheapest with a USB connector was
    > > $349...

    >
    > > Hmm so wandered around trademe maybe a 1/2 decent one there....wow!
    > > literally hundreds of new chinese phones....hrmmmm....selling with two
    > > batteries...so are the batteries that bad I wonder?

    >
    > > The "mini" looks neat, a smaller iPhone for <$200.....Ok so it wont do
    > > iTunes....like I care....watch TV on them....

    >
    > > So are any worth buying or are they real rubbish?

    >
    > hardware is ok on some of them..
    >
    > THe software however - and good luck ever seeing a firmware upgrade on
    > chinese electronics..
    >
    > Why do you need a USB connector on a phone - a basic one will have
    > nothing that needs it...


    Ease of charging anywhere....plug into a laptop....pc....car cig
    socket....etc etc....also Ive had two phones fail on the propriatry
    charging socket....ive yet to have a usb device bugger a socket...hnce
    so Im shy on proprierty ones....also a cig socket adapter can cost
    $30+ and I need one.

    Also a $100~$150 phone in the NZ shops is basic....$150 on trademe
    gets a better phone...if its going to last of course....but Ive had
    $400 phones fail so.......

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Jun 21, 2009
    #6
  7. thingy

    Gordon Guest

    On 2009-06-20, thingy <> wrote:
    > Looking around for a basic / cheap mobile phone so I wandered about
    > the usual shops, DSE, Noel Leemings...etc....empty holders....no price
    > tags, crap base models....the cheapest with a USB connector was
    > $349...


    Tell us talk only on the phone people, why the USB conncetor?
     
    Gordon, Jun 21, 2009
    #7
  8. thingy

    Gordon Guest

    On 2009-06-21, thingy <> wrote:
    > On Jun 21, 11:55 am, Woger <> wrote:
    >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:39:36 -0700 (PDT), thingy <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> >Looking around for a basic / cheap mobile phone so I wandered about
    >> >the usual shops, DSE, Noel Leemings...etc....empty holders....no price
    >> >tags, crap base models....the cheapest with a USB connector was
    >> >$349...

    >>
    >> >Hmm so wandered around trademe maybe a 1/2 decent one there....wow!
    >> >literally hundreds of new chinese phones....hrmmmm....selling with two
    >> >batteries...so are the batteries that bad I wonder?

    >>
    >> >The "mini" looks neat, a smaller iPhone for <$200.....Ok so it wont do
    >> >iTunes....like I care....watch TV on them....

    >>
    >> >So are any worth buying or are they real rubbish?

    >>
    >> >regards

    >>
    >> >Thing

    >>
    >> You are Joking..?

    >
    > Usual shoot from the hip, Woger......some of these sellers have
    > several hundreds of positive feedbacks.....
    >

    So why your original posting? ;-)



    >> Yes you buy it get it home and it does not work, so what now.?

    >
    > Most have a 30 day to 3 month warrantee...if it does not work I send
    > it back....given the feedback for the sellers a non-working phone
    > seems unlikely....some sellers have like 1400 positive feedbacks...
    >
    >> Go for a brand Not junk, Plus do you really need all those Costly 3G features
    >> that you will never use..

    >
    > I should have been more clear, I was asking generically....mostly
    > agree, Im considering known brands only....
    >
    > However some of the "no-name" brands are not no name in China....
    >
    > 3G does have its uses with care....I have found it useful if you need
    > to check email and cant find an Internet cafe, or if they are
    > closed....cafe's also of course have security concerns....and with 3G
    > you can choose which place to get a coffee from and not the crap an
    > Internet cafes usually serve....
    >
    > regards
    >
    > Thing
    >
     
    Gordon, Jun 21, 2009
    #8
  9. thingy

    victor Guest

    Gordon wrote:
    > On 2009-06-20, thingy <> wrote:
    >> Looking around for a basic / cheap mobile phone so I wandered about
    >> the usual shops, DSE, Noel Leemings...etc....empty holders....no price
    >> tags, crap base models....the cheapest with a USB connector was
    >> $349...

    >
    > Tell us talk only on the phone people, why the USB conncetor?


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Mobile_Device_Charger_Standards
     
    victor, Jun 21, 2009
    #9
  10. thingy

    thingy Guest

    On Jun 21, 8:09 pm, Gordon <> wrote:
    > On 2009-06-20, thingy <> wrote:
    >
    > > Looking around for a basic / cheap mobile phone so I wandered about
    > > the usual shops, DSE, Noel Leemings...etc....empty holders....no price
    > > tags, crap base models....the cheapest with a USB connector was
    > > $349...

    >
    > Tell us talk only on the phone people, why the USB conncetor?


    Simple and ubiquitous........Im sick of having to buy extra expensive
    car chargers and one for work and one for home or having to remember
    to carry one....kinda makes a joke of a mobile if also you have to
    acrry the charger.

    Here in NZ it seems our vendors like the extra income...they even go
    as far as to remove/not install the mini-usb connection....

    regards
     
    thingy, Jun 21, 2009
    #10
  11. thingy

    thingy Guest

    On Jun 21, 8:11 pm, Gordon <> wrote:
    > On 2009-06-21, thingy <> wrote:
    >
    > > On Jun 21, 11:55 am, Woger <> wrote:
    > >> On Sat, 20 Jun 2009 15:39:36 -0700 (PDT), thingy <>
    > >> wrote:

    >
    > >> >Looking around for a basic / cheap mobile phone so I wandered about
    > >> >the usual shops, DSE, Noel Leemings...etc....empty holders....no price
    > >> >tags, crap base models....the cheapest with a USB connector was
    > >> >$349...

    >
    > >> >Hmm so wandered around trademe maybe a 1/2 decent one there....wow!
    > >> >literally hundreds of new chinese phones....hrmmmm....selling with two
    > >> >batteries...so are the batteries that bad I wonder?

    >
    > >> >The "mini" looks neat, a smaller iPhone for <$200.....Ok so it wont do
    > >> >iTunes....like I care....watch TV on them....

    >
    > >> >So are any worth buying or are they real rubbish?

    >
    > >> >regards

    >
    > >> >Thing

    >
    > >> You are Joking..?

    >
    > > Usual shoot from the hip, Woger......some of these sellers have
    > > several hundreds of positive feedbacks.....

    >
    > So why your original posting? ;-)


    Larger feedback....trademe feedback is usually "encouraged" to be
    positive and also its to do with the immediate trade and outcome, not
    how ppl find the phone 3 or 6 months into the future....ie its
    features dont work well, or the physical quality is awful....etc
    etc....or "wow this is three years old and still going"....

    My last phone was $450 and it went faulty in 2 years, it wouldnt
    charge the battery....the one before that was 2 years old when I ran
    over it in the 4wd ....oops......but the battery was going anyway...

    There is a Siemen's M75 going for about $90....it sounds ideal for me,
    tough, "waterproof" and usb...similar in DSE is twice the price if not
    three times....in fact the only waterproof/splashproof and tough phone
    Ive seen is $599 in Vodaphone outlets...not that I expect that tough
    == 4wd proof...

    If it lasts a year then its still cheaper per year than a $400 phone
    that lasts only 2, even 3 years.....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Jun 21, 2009
    #11
  12. In article <h1mgp6$75v$>, victor <> wrote:
    >~misfit~ wrote:

    (snip)

    >I went to a Vodafone shop and they wanted over $20 for an adapter from
    >the 3.5mm to 2mm power plug
    >You can get them on Trademe for $5


    ... and probably for less from jaycar. :)
     
    Bruce Sinclair, Jun 22, 2009
    #12
  13. thingy

    victor Guest

    ~misfit~ wrote:
    > Somewhere on teh intarwebs victor wrote:
    >> Gordon wrote:
    >>> On 2009-06-20, thingy <> wrote:
    >>>> Looking around for a basic / cheap mobile phone so I wandered about
    >>>> the usual shops, DSE, Noel Leemings...etc....empty holders....no
    >>>> price tags, crap base models....the cheapest with a USB connector
    >>>> was $349...
    >>> Tell us talk only on the phone people, why the USB conncetor?

    >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Mobile_Device_Charger_Standards

    >
    > I read shocking figures that, of course, I can't remember or cite, about the
    > massive waste of resources and bulk added to landfill by each and every
    > mobile phone having a different charger connector. (Even one generation to
    > the next of the same make, as I found out several times with Nokia.)
    > However, when I read about it there hadn't been a connector type agreed to.
    > Thanks for the link.
    >
    > This push to have a universal charger type is long past overdue IYAM. Not
    > only have I thrown away multitudes of them but I *still* have a drawer full
    > of different chargers. (Yet I still have a working phone here that I don't
    > have a charger for, I have to charge the (same type of Nokia) battery in a
    > dead older phone, then swap it into the newer phone.) I dislike the whole
    > 'throw away' culture and applaud this move.
    >
    > Also, it makes big sense for the charging socket to be a micro-USB port as a
    > lot of higher-end phones have one of these anyway so it negates the need to
    > have two 'openings' to make the phone compliant with the new code.
    >
    > Cheers,


    I went to a Vodafone shop and they wanted over $20 for an adapter from
    the 3.5mm to 2mm power plug
    You can get them on Trademe for $5
    http://www.trademe.co.nz/Mobile-phones/Accessories/Other/auction-224980330.htm
    There are also USB to 3.5mm cables
    http://www.trademe.co.nz/Computers/Cables-adaptors/USB/auction-224706761.htm
    you can probably get usb to 2mm
    They are available in kits but I can't see them separate.
    http://www.trademe.co.nz/Mobile-phones/Accessories/Chargers/Nokia/auction-225786043.htm
    It does piss me off that my phone, my ipod and my car handsfree all have
    different charging plugs.
     
    victor, Jun 22, 2009
    #13
  14. thingy

    thingy Guest

    8><-------

    > It does piss me off that my phone, my ipod and my car handsfree all have
    > different charging plugs.


    I also have a GPS and two cars....remembering to move unique adapters
    about those, and in and out of the house is quite frankly a pain in
    the bum....if I leave one at home or at work and the phone is flat, Im
    stuffed......

    My partner's phone is USB and it was an eye opener....I can and have
    even charged/used it off the laptop's battery via a USB port while
    camping....

    regards

    Thing
     
    thingy, Jun 22, 2009
    #14
  15. thingy

    victor Guest

    Bruce Sinclair wrote:
    > In article <h1mgp6$75v$>, victor <> wrote:
    >> ~misfit~ wrote:

    > (snip)
    >
    >> I went to a Vodafone shop and they wanted over $20 for an adapter from
    >> the 3.5mm to 2mm power plug
    >> You can get them on Trademe for $5

    >
    > .. and probably for less from jaycar. :)


    Tried them.
     
    victor, Jun 22, 2009
    #15
  16. thingy

    Richard Guest

    ~misfit~ wrote:
    > Somewhere on teh intarwebs victor wrote:
    >> Gordon wrote:
    >>> On 2009-06-20, thingy <> wrote:
    >>>> Looking around for a basic / cheap mobile phone so I wandered about
    >>>> the usual shops, DSE, Noel Leemings...etc....empty holders....no
    >>>> price tags, crap base models....the cheapest with a USB connector
    >>>> was $349...
    >>> Tell us talk only on the phone people, why the USB conncetor?

    >> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Mobile_Device_Charger_Standards

    >
    > I read shocking figures that, of course, I can't remember or cite, about the
    > massive waste of resources and bulk added to landfill by each and every
    > mobile phone having a different charger connector. (Even one generation to
    > the next of the same make, as I found out several times with Nokia.)
    > However, when I read about it there hadn't been a connector type agreed to.
    > Thanks for the link.


    I had hoped that the mini usb as used on HTC phones would become a
    standard since that also had audio and video on the same plug - which
    the micro usb doesnt have.

    Still not sure if they have sorted the low power availability from the
    USB port out yet since thats a massive obstacle for charging stuff off a
    USB port. I think the charging specification allows for that, and for
    the charging of an inactive phone via USB - nothing was more annoying
    then the old motorazr which wouldnt charge off USB unless it was on and
    detected as a phone with a driver by windows - if you let it run out you
    had to find a powered charger to get it up enough to turn on...

    > This push to have a universal charger type is long past overdue IYAM. Not
    > only have I thrown away multitudes of them but I *still* have a drawer full
    > of different chargers. (Yet I still have a working phone here that I don't
    > have a charger for, I have to charge the (same type of Nokia) battery in a
    > dead older phone, then swap it into the newer phone.) I dislike the whole
    > 'throw away' culture and applaud this move.


    The problem is that there are still 2 jacks on phones that you have to
    connect when you get into your car etc, and still no standardized way of
    docking phones. An iPod like connector would have solved both of those
    but sadly I think that level of cooperation in the industry is never
    gonna happen.

    > Also, it makes big sense for the charging socket to be a micro-USB port as a
    > lot of higher-end phones have one of these anyway so it negates the need to
    > have two 'openings' to make the phone compliant with the new code.


    I still want to see them put a led at the base of the socket so you can
    find the damn thing in the dark to put the plug into...
     
    Richard, Jun 23, 2009
    #16
  17. thingy

    Richard Guest

    victor wrote:

    > I went to a Vodafone shop and they wanted over $20 for an adapter from
    > the 3.5mm to 2mm power plug
    > You can get them on Trademe for $5
    > http://www.trademe.co.nz/Mobile-phones/Accessories/Other/auction-224980330.htm


    Businesses dont care so they can get away with the $20 charge. Also they
    dont work since the voltage and current requirements between the 2 jacks
    is different. I tried one off my old transformer based power adapter
    that came with my nokia 1100 and the only one that charges off it is my
    budget telecom cdma nokia - others either go not charging or nothing
    happens or just animate the bar and dont charge.

    > There are also USB to 3.5mm cables
    > http://www.trademe.co.nz/Computers/Cables-adaptors/USB/auction-224706761.htm


    When your phone needs 6v to charge those cables dont do a hell of a lot
    - on a N95 they will animate the little charging icon but even for hours
    on charge you get nothing into the battery really. Same with the dollar
    shop ciggy lighter adapters.

    > you can probably get usb to 2mm
    > They are available in kits but I can't see them separate.
    > http://www.trademe.co.nz/Mobile-phones/Accessories/Chargers/Nokia/auction-225786043.htm
    >
    > It does piss me off that my phone, my ipod and my car handsfree all have
    > different charging plugs.


    Yeah, and that ciggy plugs are so large so that by the time you have a 4
    way splitter in it you are giving up most of your ashtray to wires and
    crap...
     
    Richard, Jun 23, 2009
    #17
  18. thingy

    Woger Guest

    On Tue, 23 Jun 2009 18:17:38 +1200, Richard <> wrote:

    >~misfit~ wrote:
    >> Somewhere on teh intarwebs victor wrote:
    >>> Gordon wrote:
    >>>> On 2009-06-20, thingy <> wrote:
    >>>>> Looking around for a basic / cheap mobile phone so I wandered about
    >>>>> the usual shops, DSE, Noel Leemings...etc....empty holders....no
    >>>>> price tags, crap base models....the cheapest with a USB connector
    >>>>> was $349...
    >>>> Tell us talk only on the phone people, why the USB conncetor?
    >>> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USB#Mobile_Device_Charger_Standards

    >>
    >> I read shocking figures that, of course, I can't remember or cite, about the
    >> massive waste of resources and bulk added to landfill by each and every
    >> mobile phone having a different charger connector. (Even one generation to
    >> the next of the same make, as I found out several times with Nokia.)
    >> However, when I read about it there hadn't been a connector type agreed to.
    >> Thanks for the link.

    >
    >I had hoped that the mini usb as used on HTC phones would become a
    >standard since that also had audio and video on the same plug - which
    >the micro usb doesnt have.
    >
    >Still not sure if they have sorted the low power availability from the
    >USB port out yet since thats a massive obstacle for charging stuff off a
    >USB port. I think the charging specification allows for that, and for
    >the charging of an inactive phone via USB - nothing was more annoying
    >then the old motorazr which wouldnt charge off USB unless it was on and
    >detected as a phone with a driver by windows - if you let it run out you
    >had to find a powered charger to get it up enough to turn on...




    There was software patches to alow USB charging, was on my V360

    >> This push to have a universal charger type is long past overdue IYAM. Not
    >> only have I thrown away multitudes of them but I *still* have a drawer full
    >> of different chargers. (Yet I still have a working phone here that I don't
    >> have a charger for, I have to charge the (same type of Nokia) battery in a
    >> dead older phone, then swap it into the newer phone.) I dislike the whole
    >> 'throw away' culture and applaud this move.

    >
    >The problem is that there are still 2 jacks on phones that you have to
    >connect when you get into your car etc, and still no standardized way of
    >docking phones. An iPod like connector would have solved both of those
    >but sadly I think that level of cooperation in the industry is never
    >gonna happen.
    >
    >> Also, it makes big sense for the charging socket to be a micro-USB port as a
    >> lot of higher-end phones have one of these anyway so it negates the need to
    >> have two 'openings' to make the phone compliant with the new code.

    >
    >I still want to see them put a led at the base of the socket so you can
    >find the damn thing in the dark to put the plug into...
     
    Woger, Jun 23, 2009
    #18
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. Calvin
    Replies:
    1
    Views:
    622
  2. JANA
    Replies:
    12
    Views:
    1,322
    Princess Antonomasia
    Mar 30, 2005
  3. joseph
    Replies:
    3
    Views:
    1,311
  4. JANA
    Replies:
    5
    Views:
    870
    Damian
    Mar 29, 2005
  5. JANA
    Replies:
    5
    Views:
    746
    Damian
    Mar 29, 2005
Loading...

Share This Page