PDF documents

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Matty F, Mar 22, 2006.

  1. Matty F

    Matty F Guest

    I hate PDF documents but sometimes I'm stuck with them.
    There is a site with a bunch of PDF documents, and I wish to copy
    text from them. But the facility to copy text has been turned off
    by the person who created the documents. They say that this is to
    prevent tampering with the documents on the website.
    Is this a reasonable excuse, or is it the load of bullshit that I
    think it is?
     
    Matty F, Mar 22, 2006
    #1
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  2. Matty F

    Steve Guest

    On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:57:11 +1200, Matty F wrote:

    > I hate PDF documents but sometimes I'm stuck with them.
    > There is a site with a bunch of PDF documents, and I wish to copy
    > text from them. But the facility to copy text has been turned off
    > by the person who created the documents. They say that this is to
    > prevent tampering with the documents on the website.
    > Is this a reasonable excuse, or is it the load of bullshit that I
    > think it is?


    1. You can't tamper with the contents of a website unless you're allowed
    to or you manage to hack in.

    2. There's plenty of code out there to molest pdfs - oss, shareware or
    paid-for programs. Google's your friend.
     
    Steve, Mar 22, 2006
    #2
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  3. Matty F

    JohnO Guest

    Matty F wrote:
    > I hate PDF documents but sometimes I'm stuck with them.
    > There is a site with a bunch of PDF documents, and I wish to copy
    > text from them. But the facility to copy text has been turned off
    > by the person who created the documents. They say that this is to
    > prevent tampering with the documents on the website.
    > Is this a reasonable excuse, or is it the load of bullshit that I
    > think it is?


    Yes.

    Can you view with ghostscript and does that suffer from the security
    restriction as well?
     
    JohnO, Mar 22, 2006
    #3
  4. Matty F

    Matty F Guest

    Steve wrote:

    > On Wed, 22 Mar 2006 20:57:11 +1200, Matty F wrote:
    >
    >
    >>I hate PDF documents but sometimes I'm stuck with them.
    >>There is a site with a bunch of PDF documents, and I wish to copy
    >>text from them. But the facility to copy text has been turned off
    >>by the person who created the documents. They say that this is to
    >>prevent tampering with the documents on the website.
    >>Is this a reasonable excuse, or is it the load of bullshit that I
    >>think it is?

    >
    >
    > 1. You can't tamper with the contents of a website unless you're allowed
    > to or you manage to hack in.
    >
    > 2. There's plenty of code out there to molest pdfs - oss, shareware or
    > paid-for programs. Google's your friend.


    This is not just for me, but also for thousands of other people
    who should not have to use such methods to read a document
    provided by a government department.
    There are 26 PDF documents. I note that a few of them were
    modified yesterday so that the text can now be copied.
    I'll watch with interest.

    See for yourself:
    http://www.transport.govt.nz/business/land/arpes/

    This one, last changed on 17 March 2006, has not been fixed yet:
    http://www.transport.govt.nz/busine...df?PHPSESSID=d828510833c3952eb2effeb7341eaa00
     
    Matty F, Mar 22, 2006
    #4
  5. Matty F

    Allistar Guest

    Matty F wrote:

    > I hate PDF documents but sometimes I'm stuck with them.
    > There is a site with a bunch of PDF documents, and I wish to copy
    > text from them. But the facility to copy text has been turned off
    > by the person who created the documents. They say that this is to
    > prevent tampering with the documents on the website.
    > Is this a reasonable excuse, or is it the load of bullshit that I
    > think it is?


    I'm not sure what OS or desktop environment you are using, burt KPDF for KDE
    has great features for cutting either the text or an image out of a PDF
    document. I'm not sure if it pays attention to security restrictions.

    Allistar.
     
    Allistar, Mar 22, 2006
    #5
  6. Matty F

    colinco Guest

    In article Matty F says...
    > This is not just for me, but also for thousands of other people
    > who should not have to use such methods to read a document
    > provided by a government department.
    >

    If they were sending out a PDF for public comment then it shouldn't have
    copying turned off but I'd rather use a PDF reader than have to trust
    that you haven't modified the text in any "cut and paste" copy of yours.
     
    colinco, Mar 22, 2006
    #6
  7. Matty F

    Keith Guest

    In article <ip8Uf.7908$>,
    says...
    > I hate PDF documents but sometimes I'm stuck with them.
    > There is a site with a bunch of PDF documents, and I wish to copy
    > text from them. But the facility to copy text has been turned off
    > by the person who created the documents. They say that this is to
    > prevent tampering with the documents on the website.
    > Is this a reasonable excuse, or is it the load of bullshit that I
    > think it is?


    Why not? Its their document and they should be able to enforce their
    copyright if they wish to.

    Having said that, recent OCR apps such as Omnipage Pro will read a PDF
    file and allow you to "Save as..." thus getting around the secruity
    restrictions.
     
    Keith, Mar 22, 2006
    #7
  8. Matty F

    Matty F Guest

    colinco wrote:
    > In article Matty F says...
    >
    >>This is not just for me, but also for thousands of other people
    >>who should not have to use such methods to read a document
    >>provided by a government department.
    >>

    >
    > If they were sending out a PDF for public comment then it shouldn't have
    > copying turned off but I'd rather use a PDF reader than have to trust
    > that you haven't modified the text in any "cut and paste" copy of yours.


    I don't understand what you mean here. I am trying to make sense
    of a 30 megabyte report, and I wish to read it and copy the parts
    that I wish to comment on. The original report is contained in
    26 PDF files and is far too verbose and repetitive to be able to
    easily find anything. I cannot easily search the whole document
    either.
     
    Matty F, Mar 22, 2006
    #8
  9. Matty F

    Keith Guest

    Keith <> wrote:
    >In article <ip8Uf.7908$>,
    > says...
    >> I hate PDF documents but sometimes I'm stuck with them.
    >> There is a site with a bunch of PDF documents, and I wish to copy
    >> text from them. But the facility to copy text has been turned off
    >> by the person who created the documents. They say that this is to
    >> prevent tampering with the documents on the website.
    >> Is this a reasonable excuse, or is it the load of bullshit that I
    >> think it is?

    >
    >Why not? Its their document and they should be able to enforce their
    >copyright if they wish to.
    >
    >Having said that, recent OCR apps such as Omnipage Pro will read a PDF
    >file and allow you to "Save as..." thus getting around the secruity
    >restrictions.


    PS. You think Transport's bad. Try buying a PDF of a Standard from
    StdsNZ. You get a ZIP file that contains the PDF plus a text file
    containing a password. Each and every time you open the PDF you have to
    enter the password!!! And it also has everything like 'copy text'
    turned off.

    That really is begging people to flout the copyright laws IMHO.
     
    Keith, Mar 22, 2006
    #9
  10. Matty F

    impossible Guest

    "Allistar" <> wrote in message news:...
    > Matty F wrote:
    >
    >> I hate PDF documents but sometimes I'm stuck with them.
    >> There is a site with a bunch of PDF documents, and I wish to copy
    >> text from them. But the facility to copy text has been turned off
    >> by the person who created the documents. They say that this is to
    >> prevent tampering with the documents on the website.
    >> Is this a reasonable excuse, or is it the load of bullshit that I
    >> think it is?

    >
    > I'm not sure what OS or desktop environment you are using, burt KPDF
    > for KDE
    > has great features for cutting either the text or an image out of a
    > PDF
    > document. I'm not sure if it pays attention to security
    > restrictions.
    >


    Security restrictions in pdf documents are not a function of which OS
    you use, If the user has editing/copying/printing rights to the
    document, then a range of tools are available for either Linux or
    Windows to handle those tasks. If not, then the only option is to
    either persuade the author to change the document's security settings
    or (heaven forbid!) crack them yourself.
     
    impossible, Mar 22, 2006
    #10
  11. Matty F

    Allistar Guest

    impossible wrote:

    > "Allistar" <> wrote in message news:...
    >> Matty F wrote:
    >>
    >>> I hate PDF documents but sometimes I'm stuck with them.
    >>> There is a site with a bunch of PDF documents, and I wish to copy
    >>> text from them. But the facility to copy text has been turned off
    >>> by the person who created the documents. They say that this is to
    >>> prevent tampering with the documents on the website.
    >>> Is this a reasonable excuse, or is it the load of bullshit that I
    >>> think it is?

    >>
    >> I'm not sure what OS or desktop environment you are using, burt KPDF
    >> for KDE
    >> has great features for cutting either the text or an image out of a
    >> PDF
    >> document. I'm not sure if it pays attention to security
    >> restrictions.
    >>

    >
    > Security restrictions in pdf documents are not a function of which OS
    > you use, If the user has editing/copying/printing rights to the
    > document, then a range of tools are available for either Linux or
    > Windows to handle those tasks. If not, then the only option is to
    > either persuade the author to change the document's security settings
    > or (heaven forbid!) crack them yourself.


    I'm sure a PDF viewing application could be developed that ignored such
    security settings. Unless cut'n'paste protected PDF files contain only
    graphics of text and not the text itself, and even then OCR software could
    do the job.

    Are there any laws or restrictions on creating PDF viewers that means you
    must implement such document security?

    Allistar.
     
    Allistar, Mar 23, 2006
    #11
  12. Matty F

    impossible Guest

    "Allistar" <> wrote in message news:...
    > impossible wrote:
    >
    >> "Allistar" <> wrote in message news:...
    >>> Matty F wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> I hate PDF documents but sometimes I'm stuck with them.
    >>>> There is a site with a bunch of PDF documents, and I wish to copy
    >>>> text from them. But the facility to copy text has been turned off
    >>>> by the person who created the documents. They say that this is to
    >>>> prevent tampering with the documents on the website.
    >>>> Is this a reasonable excuse, or is it the load of bullshit that I
    >>>> think it is?
    >>>
    >>> I'm not sure what OS or desktop environment you are using, burt
    >>> KPDF
    >>> for KDE
    >>> has great features for cutting either the text or an image out of
    >>> a
    >>> PDF
    >>> document. I'm not sure if it pays attention to security
    >>> restrictions.
    >>>

    >>
    >> Security restrictions in pdf documents are not a function of which
    >> OS
    >> you use, If the user has editing/copying/printing rights to the
    >> document, then a range of tools are available for either Linux or
    >> Windows to handle those tasks. If not, then the only option is to
    >> either persuade the author to change the document's security
    >> settings
    >> or (heaven forbid!) crack them yourself.

    >
    > I'm sure a PDF viewing application could be developed that ignored
    > such
    > security settings. Unless cut'n'paste protected PDF files contain
    > only
    > graphics of text and not the text itself, and even then OCR software
    > could
    > do the job.


    You're probably right about OCR not being hindered by security
    settings -- myself, I've never run into a pdf image that couldn't be
    rescued for editing by OmniPage. In any case, all I meant is that the
    OS wouldn't be the key thing in determining what you can and cannot do
    with a pdf file.
    >
    > Are there any laws or restrictions on creating PDF viewers that
    > means you
    > must implement such document security?
    >


    Implement? I think you mean "not hack" -- I don't literally know, but
    I suspect not. There are perfectly legal tools you can buy now to
    "recover" passwords, for instance, or decrypt. I'm guessing that once
    someone makes a pdf available to download, it's fair game to take it
    apart any way you wish. But what you could almost certainly NOT do is
    then re-distribute the pdf, or pieces of it, to anyone in this hacked
    form.
     
    impossible, Mar 23, 2006
    #12
  13. Matty F

    Gordon Guest

    This is an interesting thread.

    PDF is good because readers are available for all platforms. The idea of
    making tamper proof, if desired, is also good as it will stop people
    altering the meaning of your document/ideas.

    However, when it is a document which is really a RFC (it asks for
    submissions) then surely the ability to cut and paste from the document is
    a good thing.
     
    Gordon, Mar 23, 2006
    #13
  14. Matty F

    Allistar Guest

    impossible wrote:

    > "Allistar" <> wrote in message news:...
    >> impossible wrote:
    >>
    >>> "Allistar" <> wrote in message news:...
    >>>> Matty F wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> I hate PDF documents but sometimes I'm stuck with them.
    >>>>> There is a site with a bunch of PDF documents, and I wish to copy
    >>>>> text from them. But the facility to copy text has been turned off
    >>>>> by the person who created the documents. They say that this is to
    >>>>> prevent tampering with the documents on the website.
    >>>>> Is this a reasonable excuse, or is it the load of bullshit that I
    >>>>> think it is?
    >>>>
    >>>> I'm not sure what OS or desktop environment you are using, burt
    >>>> KPDF
    >>>> for KDE
    >>>> has great features for cutting either the text or an image out of
    >>>> a
    >>>> PDF
    >>>> document. I'm not sure if it pays attention to security
    >>>> restrictions.
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>> Security restrictions in pdf documents are not a function of which
    >>> OS
    >>> you use, If the user has editing/copying/printing rights to the
    >>> document, then a range of tools are available for either Linux or
    >>> Windows to handle those tasks. If not, then the only option is to
    >>> either persuade the author to change the document's security
    >>> settings
    >>> or (heaven forbid!) crack them yourself.

    >>
    >> I'm sure a PDF viewing application could be developed that ignored
    >> such
    >> security settings. Unless cut'n'paste protected PDF files contain
    >> only
    >> graphics of text and not the text itself, and even then OCR software
    >> could
    >> do the job.

    >
    > You're probably right about OCR not being hindered by security
    > settings -- myself, I've never run into a pdf image that couldn't be
    > rescued for editing by OmniPage. In any case, all I meant is that the
    > OS wouldn't be the key thing in determining what you can and cannot do
    > with a pdf file.


    Agreed, although I never did imply nor infer the OS was relevant (only that
    KPdf, which only runs on one OS, may do the trick).

    >> Are there any laws or restrictions on creating PDF viewers that
    >> means you
    >> must implement such document security?
    >>

    >
    > Implement? I think you mean "not hack" -- I don't literally know, but
    > I suspect not. There are perfectly legal tools you can buy now to
    > "recover" passwords, for instance, or decrypt. I'm guessing that once
    > someone makes a pdf available to download, it's fair game to take it
    > apart any way you wish. But what you could almost certainly NOT do is
    > then re-distribute the pdf, or pieces of it, to anyone in this hacked
    > form.


    If the viewer has access to the text to be able to render it using the
    specified font, then it can put that text in the clipboard. The only way
    this would not work is if the "text" is actually embedded as a graphic -
    which I highly doubt as I've not heard of restricted PDF files being any
    larger in size.

    Allistar.
     
    Allistar, Mar 23, 2006
    #14
  15. Mark Robinson, Mar 23, 2006
    #15
  16. Matty F

    Matty F Guest

    Mark Robinson wrote:
    > Matty F wrote:
    >
    >> This one, last changed on 17 March 2006, has not been fixed yet:
    >> http://www.transport.govt.nz/business/land/arpes/download/report/arpes-chapters-5-6.pdf

    >
    >
    >
    > pdftohtml -nodrm arpes-chapters-5-6.pdf
    >
    > worked a treat for me
    >


    Does that work on Windows machines? I think not.
    I'd really rather the offending PDF documents were changed so
    they can be copied by anybody on any platform.
    It makes me wonder about the quality of the reports if they
    cannot understand the technical details of PDF documents and the
    ordinary security of their site.
     
    Matty F, Mar 23, 2006
    #16
  17. Matty F wrote:
    > Mark Robinson wrote:
    >> Matty F wrote:
    >>> This one, last changed on 17 March 2006, has not been fixed yet:
    >>> http://www.transport.govt.nz/business/land/arpes/download/report/arpes-chapters-5-6.pdf

    >> pdftohtml -nodrm arpes-chapters-5-6.pdf
    >> worked a treat for me

    > Does that work on Windows machines? I think not.
    > I'd really rather the offending PDF documents were changed so they can
    > be copied by anybody on any platform.
    > It makes me wonder about the quality of the reports if they cannot
    > understand the technical details of PDF documents and the ordinary
    > security of their site.


    Yeah - you are completely correct. I am sure that this practice is at variance
    with the requirements of the e-gumblement strategy too which is probably why
    the documents are being changed.
     
    Mark Robinson, Mar 23, 2006
    #17
  18. Matty F

    Dave Taylor Guest

    Gordon <> wrote in
    news:p:

    > This is an interesting thread.
    >
    > PDF is good because readers are available for all platforms. The idea
    > of making tamper proof, if desired, is also good as it will stop
    > people altering the meaning of your document/ideas.
    >
    > However, when it is a document which is really a RFC (it asks for
    > submissions) then surely the ability to cut and paste from the
    > document is a good thing.
    >


    Very logical IMHO. I agree.

    --
    Ciao, Dave
     
    Dave Taylor, Mar 23, 2006
    #18
  19. Matty F

    RJ Guest

    In article <>, says...
    > Matty F wrote:
    >
    > > I hate PDF documents but sometimes I'm stuck with them.
    > > There is a site with a bunch of PDF documents, and I wish to copy
    > > text from them. But the facility to copy text has been turned off
    > > by the person who created the documents. They say that this is to
    > > prevent tampering with the documents on the website.
    > > Is this a reasonable excuse, or is it the load of bullshit that I
    > > think it is?

    >
    > I'm not sure what OS or desktop environment you are using, burt


    bUT MOST people here use Windows LOL
     
    RJ, Mar 23, 2006
    #19
  20. Matty F

    Enkidu Guest

    Dave Taylor wrote:
    > Gordon <> wrote in
    > news:p:
    >
    >
    >>This is an interesting thread.
    >>
    >>PDF is good because readers are available for all platforms. The idea
    >>of making tamper proof, if desired, is also good as it will stop
    >>people altering the meaning of your document/ideas.
    >>
    >>However, when it is a document which is really a RFC (it asks for
    >>submissions) then surely the ability to cut and paste from the
    >>document is a good thing.

    >
    > Very logical IMHO. I agree.
    >

    No, it's rubbish. If you want me to read your document, I expect to be
    able to read it the way *I* want. Without any of the fancy eye-candy
    that you feel makes it look 'good' and I think makes it look 'trashy'. I
    want to read it in a font I choose, especially if I've got bad eyesight
    or you choose to use a 'paper' type heavily seriffed font. And I want to
    be able to see the whole page without scrolling sideways or up and down
    multiple columns. I don't want to have it skip down the screen because I
    scrolled over a page break!

    I especially don't want to have to print it out to read it properly! I
    received a price list by email the otherday, which had multiple columns,
    small font. Unreadable unless printed.

    Fixing the format of an online document is sheer vanity, nothing else.

    I exclude from this purely technical documents which *sometimes* justify
    fixing the format of the document.

    Cheers,

    Cliff
     
    Enkidu, Mar 23, 2006
    #20
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