PC won't power on

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by alice, Mar 13, 2007.

  1. alice

    lobo Guest

    "alice" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Mar 13, 3:30 pm, Ghostrider <-...@fitron.142> wrote:
    >> alice wrote:
    >> > I just opened up my PC case to take off the CPU fan and heatsink,
    >> > cleaned it, put it back on, and now the whole thing will not power on.
    >> > The power light comes on for about 5 seconds, and the CPU fan starts
    >> > to spin, then it just turns off.
    >> > The reason I cleaned the fan in the first place is because the machine
    >> > was overheating and randomly turning off frequently.
    >> > Is there any thing I can do at this point, and if I need to replace
    >> > parts, what should I start with?

    >>
    >> Five seconds might not seem like too long but there is a good chance
    >> that the CPU got fried. This would occur for the lack of heat-conducting
    >> paste between the CPU heat slug and the surface of the heatsink. Let's
    >> hope not but all of the other troubleshooting ideas have not succeeded.

    >
    > So if it was the lack of paste, would adding it now fix anything? I
    > would assume not. Should I be looking for a new processor? It seems as
    > though it was failing anyway, shutting down randomly for months now.


    I still feel it is a power supply issue. Not enough wattage to power three
    drives along with everything else. It finally gave up the ghost.
     
    lobo, Mar 13, 2007
    #21
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  2. alice

    alice Guest

    On Mar 13, 4:13 pm, "lobo" <> wrote:
    > "alice" <> wrote in message
    >
    > news:...
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Mar 13, 3:30 pm, Ghostrider <-...@fitron.142> wrote:
    > >> alice wrote:
    > >> > I just opened up my PC case to take off the CPU fan and heatsink,
    > >> > cleaned it, put it back on, and now the whole thing will not power on.
    > >> > The power light comes on for about 5 seconds, and the CPU fan starts
    > >> > to spin, then it just turns off.
    > >> > The reason I cleaned the fan in the first place is because the machine
    > >> > was overheating and randomly turning off frequently.
    > >> > Is there any thing I can do at this point, and if I need to replace
    > >> > parts, what should I start with?

    >
    > >> Five seconds might not seem like too long but there is a good chance
    > >> that the CPU got fried. This would occur for the lack of heat-conducting
    > >> paste between the CPU heat slug and the surface of the heatsink. Let's
    > >> hope not but all of the other troubleshooting ideas have not succeeded.

    >
    > > So if it was the lack of paste, would adding it now fix anything? I
    > > would assume not. Should I be looking for a new processor? It seems as
    > > though it was failing anyway, shutting down randomly for months now.

    >
    > I still feel it is a power supply issue. Not enough wattage to power three
    > drives along with everything else. It finally gave up the ghost.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    I did try unplugging the drives, one at a time, and each time it would
    still not power up.
     
    alice, Mar 13, 2007
    #22
    1. Advertising

  3. alice

    w_tom Guest

    On Mar 13, 7:02 pm, "alice" <> wrote:
    > I'm no longer in front of it, and I can't remember the wattage, but I
    > want to say 350?


    There is little to zero you can see or fix only by visual inspection
    - which is why so many have you shotgunning with zero progress.
    What's worse, you tried to fix something without first establishing
    what was wrong - you removed CPU heatsinks. So what we have is maybe
    two suspects - the problem now is exponentially more complex.

    (BTW, if holes in the heatsink were not completely clogged, then
    heat would not be the reason for problems. )

    Start by establishing what is and is not. Collect facts. Don't
    swap parts. Don't disconnect anything. First discover what you do
    have.

    The reason a 3.5 digit multimeter is sold even in K-mart? It's for
    people with even junior high school education. You need that
    multimeter and a screwdriver - the two most essential tools. In two
    minutes we define that entire power supply 'system' either good or bad
    with almost no doubts. The procedure is posted in "When your computer
    dies without warning....." starting 6 Feb 2007 in the newsgroup
    alt.windows-xp at:
    http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh

    Taking those voltage numbers from red, orange, and yellow wires when
    accessing many other peripherals (multitasking - increasing the load)
    will make those numbers even more informative. Without those numbers,
    you help can only say "try this and try that" rather than do what is
    demonstrated on a TV 'CSI': follow the evidence.

    Meanwhile, other useful information may have been stored in the
    system (event) logs. Information from those logs also means future
    replies will be more informative.

    But having changed and removed so much, then you may have one or now
    multiple problems. You have exponentially complicated the solution.
    Above is step one in a process of stepping through the problem;
    breaking the problem down into parts and analyzing those parts; KISS.

    If you keep swapping stuff, you may only make the problem
    unsolvable. Exactly why shotgunning is done only by those without.

    Get the $20 meter that is sold in K-mart, Radio Shack, Lowes, Wal-
    mart, Sears, or Home Depot. Provide those numbers. Then get responses
    that say exactly what is good or bad AND what to do next for a
    definitive solution - no more shotgunning.
     
    w_tom, Mar 13, 2007
    #23
  4. alice

    w_tom Guest

    On Mar 13, 7:03 pm, "alice" <> wrote:
    > So if it was the lack of paste, would adding it now fix anything? I
    > would assume not. Should I be looking for a new processor? It seems as
    > though it was failing anyway, shutting down randomly for months now.


    I don't even see where the CPU manufacturer is listed. If an Intel,
    then CPU completely protects itself. It AMD and with a lesser
    connection to heatsink, then most AMD CPUs would suffer no damage.

    Don't worry for now about removing old heatsink paste. The existing
    stuff would have been sufficient. If the heatsink was properly
    manufactured, then even no paste was sufficient. Why do others
    recommend removing and replacing the paste? They confuse complete
    failure with what is only a mildly less conductive thermal connection.

    Do unplug drives and all that other stuff completely unrelated.
    That is classic shotgunning. You are making the problem exponentially
    more complex. Even if a car mechanic did what you were doing, then
    he would be fired. Posted above from this author is what you do.
    Stop wildly speculating. That other post is how one uses principles
    even from junior high science to step through the problem - break up
    the exponential complication - see a problem that cannot be solved by
    visual inspection or shotgunning.
     
    w_tom, Mar 13, 2007
    #24
  5. alice

    alice Guest

    On Mar 13, 4:54 pm, "w_tom" <> wrote:
    > On Mar 13, 7:03 pm, "alice" <> wrote:
    >
    > > So if it was the lack of paste, would adding it now fix anything? I
    > > would assume not. Should I be looking for a new processor? It seems as
    > > though it was failing anyway, shutting down randomly for months now.

    >
    > I don't even see where the CPU manufacturer is listed. If an Intel,
    > then CPU completely protects itself. It AMD and with a lesser
    > connection to heatsink, then most AMD CPUs would suffer no damage.
    >
    > Don't worry for now about removing old heatsink paste. The existing
    > stuff would have been sufficient. If the heatsink was properly
    > manufactured, then even no paste was sufficient. Why do others
    > recommend removing and replacing the paste? They confuse complete
    > failure with what is only a mildly less conductive thermal connection.
    >
    > Do unplug drives and all that other stuff completely unrelated.
    > That is classic shotgunning. You are making the problem exponentially
    > more complex. Even if a car mechanic did what you were doing, then
    > he would be fired. Posted above from this author is what you do.
    > Stop wildly speculating. That other post is how one uses principles
    > even from junior high science to step through the problem - break up
    > the exponential complication - see a problem that cannot be solved by
    > visual inspection or shotgunning.


    Thanks for the advice. I will go get a multimeter when I have a
    chance.
    Here are the facts-
    The PC has been occassionally turning off suddenly, with no warning,
    for a couple of months. The event logs show nothing out of the
    ordinary as far as I can tell. No errors.
    I checked the temp. of the system in the BIOS screen and it was
    getting above 80 C. It was recommended to me to check and clean the
    CPU fan and heatsink. They were both very dirty and clogged with dust.
    To clean them, I removed them both, then put them back.
    After that, the PC would only turn on for a few seconds.
    At that point, I tried another working PSU. Same thing. Then I tried
    unplugging drives. Same thing. Then I tried a different CPU fan from
    another PC. Same thing.
    I'll let you know what I find with the meter.
     
    alice, Mar 14, 2007
    #25
  6. alice

    alice Guest

    On Mar 13, 5:14 pm, "alice" <> wrote:
    > On Mar 13, 4:54 pm, "w_tom" <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Mar 13, 7:03 pm, "alice" <> wrote:

    >
    > > > So if it was the lack of paste, would adding it now fix anything? I
    > > > would assume not. Should I be looking for a new processor? It seems as
    > > > though it was failing anyway, shutting down randomly for months now.

    >
    > > I don't even see where the CPU manufacturer is listed. If an Intel,
    > > then CPU completely protects itself. It AMD and with a lesser
    > > connection to heatsink, then most AMD CPUs would suffer no damage.

    >
    > > Don't worry for now about removing old heatsink paste. The existing
    > > stuff would have been sufficient. If the heatsink was properly
    > > manufactured, then even no paste was sufficient. Why do others
    > > recommend removing and replacing the paste? They confuse complete
    > > failure with what is only a mildly less conductive thermal connection.

    >
    > > Do unplug drives and all that other stuff completely unrelated.
    > > That is classic shotgunning. You are making the problem exponentially
    > > more complex. Even if a car mechanic did what you were doing, then
    > > he would be fired. Posted above from this author is what you do.
    > > Stop wildly speculating. That other post is how one uses principles
    > > even from junior high science to step through the problem - break up
    > > the exponential complication - see a problem that cannot be solved by
    > > visual inspection or shotgunning.

    >
    > Thanks for the advice. I will go get a multimeter when I have a
    > chance.
    > Here are the facts-
    > The PC has been occassionally turning off suddenly, with no warning,
    > for a couple of months. The event logs show nothing out of the
    > ordinary as far as I can tell. No errors.
    > I checked the temp. of the system in the BIOS screen and it was
    > getting above 80 C. It was recommended to me to check and clean the
    > CPU fan and heatsink. They were both very dirty and clogged with dust.
    > To clean them, I removed them both, then put them back.
    > After that, the PC would only turn on for a few seconds.
    > At that point, I tried another working PSU. Same thing. Then I tried
    > unplugging drives. Same thing. Then I tried a different CPU fan from
    > another PC. Same thing.
    > I'll let you know what I find with the meter.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    I forgot to mention, it's an AMD Athlon.
     
    alice, Mar 14, 2007
    #26
  7. alice

    alice Guest

    On Mar 13, 5:14 pm, "alice" <> wrote:
    > On Mar 13, 4:54 pm, "w_tom" <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > > On Mar 13, 7:03 pm, "alice" <> wrote:

    >
    > > > So if it was the lack of paste, would adding it now fix anything? I
    > > > would assume not. Should I be looking for a new processor? It seems as
    > > > though it was failing anyway, shutting down randomly for months now.

    >
    > > I don't even see where the CPU manufacturer is listed. If an Intel,
    > > then CPU completely protects itself. It AMD and with a lesser
    > > connection to heatsink, then most AMD CPUs would suffer no damage.

    >
    > > Don't worry for now about removing old heatsink paste. The existing
    > > stuff would have been sufficient. If the heatsink was properly
    > > manufactured, then even no paste was sufficient. Why do others
    > > recommend removing and replacing the paste? They confuse complete
    > > failure with what is only a mildly less conductive thermal connection.

    >
    > > Do unplug drives and all that other stuff completely unrelated.
    > > That is classic shotgunning. You are making the problem exponentially
    > > more complex. Even if a car mechanic did what you were doing, then
    > > he would be fired. Posted above from this author is what you do.
    > > Stop wildly speculating. That other post is how one uses principles
    > > even from junior high science to step through the problem - break up
    > > the exponential complication - see a problem that cannot be solved by
    > > visual inspection or shotgunning.

    >
    > Thanks for the advice. I will go get a multimeter when I have a
    > chance.
    > Here are the facts-
    > The PC has been occassionally turning off suddenly, with no warning,
    > for a couple of months. The event logs show nothing out of the
    > ordinary as far as I can tell. No errors.
    > I checked the temp. of the system in the BIOS screen and it was
    > getting above 80 C. It was recommended to me to check and clean the
    > CPU fan and heatsink. They were both very dirty and clogged with dust.
    > To clean them, I removed them both, then put them back.
    > After that, the PC would only turn on for a few seconds.
    > At that point, I tried another working PSU. Same thing. Then I tried
    > unplugging drives. Same thing. Then I tried a different CPU fan from
    > another PC. Same thing.
    > I'll let you know what I find with the meter.- Hide quoted text -
    >
    > - Show quoted text -


    I forgot to mention, it's an AMD Athlon.
     
    alice, Mar 14, 2007
    #27
  8. alice

    w_tom Guest

    On Mar 13, 7:03 pm, "alice" <> wrote:
    > So if it was the lack of paste, would adding it now fix anything? I
    > would assume not. Should I be looking for a new processor? It seems as
    > though it was failing anyway, shutting down randomly for months now.


    I don't even see where the CPU manufacturer is listed. If an Intel,
    then CPU completely protected itself. If AMD and with a lesser
    connection to heatsink, then most AMD CPUs would suffer no damage.

    Don't worry for now about removing old heatsink paste. The existing
    stuff would have been sufficient. If the heatsink was properly
    manufactured, then even no paste was sufficient. Ignore the hype.
    Install 'follow the evidence'. What you are doing violates everything
    even demonstrated in CSI. Worse, by disconnecting drives, et al, you
    have making the problem exponentially more complex. That is what
    shotgunning does.

    Posted above from this author is what to do. Stop wildly
    speculating. Other post is how one 'follows the evidence' - break up
    that now exponential complication. Find a problem that cannot be
    solved by visual inspection or shotgunning. Only then do we fix
    anything.
     
    w_tom, Mar 14, 2007
    #28
  9. alice

    alice Guest

    On Mar 13, 4:43 pm, "w_tom" <> wrote:
    > On Mar 13, 7:02 pm, "alice" <> wrote:
    >
    > > I'm no longer in front of it, and I can't remember the wattage, but I
    > > want to say 350?

    >
    > There is little to zero you can see or fix only by visual inspection
    > - which is why so many have you shotgunning with zero progress.
    > What's worse, you tried to fix something without first establishing
    > what was wrong - you removed CPU heatsinks. So what we have is maybe
    > two suspects - the problem now is exponentially more complex.
    >
    > (BTW, if holes in the heatsink were not completely clogged, then
    > heat would not be the reason for problems. )
    >
    > Start by establishing what is and is not. Collect facts. Don't
    > swap parts. Don't disconnect anything. First discover what you do
    > have.
    >
    > The reason a 3.5 digit multimeter is sold even in K-mart? It's for
    > people with even junior high school education. You need that
    > multimeter and a screwdriver - the two most essential tools. In two
    > minutes we define that entire power supply 'system' either good or bad
    > with almost no doubts. The procedure is posted in "When your computer
    > dies without warning....." starting 6 Feb 2007 in the newsgroup
    > alt.windows-xp at:
    > http://tinyurl.com/yvf9vh
    >
    > Taking those voltage numbers from red, orange, and yellow wires when
    > accessing many other peripherals (multitasking - increasing the load)
    > will make those numbers even more informative. Without those numbers,
    > you help can only say "try this and try that" rather than do what is
    > demonstrated on a TV 'CSI': follow the evidence.
    >
    > Meanwhile, other useful information may have been stored in the
    > system (event) logs. Information from those logs also means future
    > replies will be more informative.
    >
    > But having changed and removed so much, then you may have one or now
    > multiple problems. You have exponentially complicated the solution.
    > Above is step one in a process of stepping through the problem;
    > breaking the problem down into parts and analyzing those parts; KISS.
    >
    > If you keep swapping stuff, you may only make the problem
    > unsolvable. Exactly why shotgunning is done only by those without.
    >
    > Get the $20 meter that is sold in K-mart, Radio Shack, Lowes, Wal-
    > mart, Sears, or Home Depot. Provide those numbers. Then get responses
    > that say exactly what is good or bad AND what to do next for a
    > definitive solution - no more shotgunning.


    I've never used a multimeter before, is there anything else I should
    know to avoid hurting myself?
     
    alice, Mar 14, 2007
    #29
  10. alice

    PeeCee Guest

    "alice" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I just opened up my PC case to take off the CPU fan and heatsink,
    > cleaned it, put it back on, and now the whole thing will not power on.
    > The power light comes on for about 5 seconds, and the CPU fan starts
    > to spin, then it just turns off.
    > The reason I cleaned the fan in the first place is because the machine
    > was overheating and randomly turning off frequently.
    > Is there any thing I can do at this point, and if I need to replace
    > parts, what should I start with?
    >



    Alice

    Several possibilities come to mind why your PC is acting the way it is.

    1 You have put the heatsink on backwards and it is not seated correctly on
    the CPU face.
    2 The lack of thermal paste between HS & CPU is causing the CPU to heat up.
    3 CPU has popped out of the socket.
    4 It was just the time that the motherboard was going to die.
    5 You did this with the power supply plugged into the wall and fried
    something.
    6 ...

    You'll note I don't mention power supply, your description of what happened
    makes it highly unlikely it is power supply related.

    The most productive course you can take is to unplug everything from the box
    (power, keyboard, mouse...) disconnect everything from the motherboard
    except the power supply, CPU/Heat Sink and speaker.
    Then remove Heat Sink and CPU and carefully reseat them (take appropriate
    antistatic measures) with a minimal amount of thermal paste between the Heat
    Sink and CPU (the paste is there to fill the microsocopic voids between HS &
    CPU so improving heat transfer from CPU to Heat Sink)

    At this time finish any dedusting needed, then check the tightness of
    motherboard mounts and other case screws.

    Now with this minimal configuration, plug the mains in and see if the
    computer starts and stays on.
    It will most likely start beeping because there is no RAM, this is fine as
    it show's the motherboard and CPU are booting and performing their startup
    process's correctly.

    If the minimal configuration starts then add the disconnected parts one at a
    time until you find what is causing the PC to shut down so quickly and
    replace repair as appropriate. Do shutdown and disconnect the mains leads
    between each item added.

    If the minimum configuration does 'not' start then you will have to arrange
    to try the CPU in another known good motherboard - or- take it to a tech
    with the skills to diagnose hardware problems.

    Best
    Paul.
     
    PeeCee, Mar 14, 2007
    #30
  11. alice

    w_tom Guest

    On Mar 13, 9:43 pm, "alice" <> wrote:
    > I've never used a multimeter before, is there anything else I should
    > know to avoid hurting myself


    It's sold even in K-mart. The most complex part might be having the
    clerk make correct change. Simply set the dial to what you want to
    measure (DC volts, AC volts, DC current, continuity, etc), touch the
    leads, then read the number. Or read the directions.

    Anything inside the computer that could hurt you is inside a box
    with big labels saying things like (No Servicable Parts). Simple.
    Don't open that box that has big warning labels. Of course before you
    ever put a hand inside any computer, first touch the chassis. A hand
    that does not first touch the chassis .... well you can't hear all
    integrated circuits screaming when you hand has static electric
    charges. You are the big threat to them. They are no threat to you.

    Meanwhile, another most dangerous thing. Whenever installing or
    disconnecting anything, then AC power plug was be disconnected from
    the wall receptacle. Just another reason why you may be a biggest
    threat inside that chassis.

    Be amazed how simple voltages are measured and how many 'computer
    assemblers' fear the multimeter. Be amazed how quickly we can isolate
    problems with but a multimeter and minimal electrical knowledge.
     
    w_tom, Mar 14, 2007
    #31
  12. alice wrote:

    ....
    > I forgot to mention, it's an AMD Athlon.


    Unfortunately Athlons have no real selfprotection against overheating, at
    least not one reacting fast enough when there is (almost) no contact to a
    heatsink.
    When you remove the heatsink (recommended procedure to clean it, would be
    just unscrewing the fan on top, and use a can of "compressed air" to blow
    out the dust from between the fins) you will have a uneven surface due to
    the previously attached heatpad or paste which will have hardened. Since it
    is almost impossible to reattach the heatsink in exactly the same way once
    again, you will have a weak contact due to that - so even no conducting
    paste is better than leaving the old one.
    Btw., 80 deg .... I assume Celsius? ... is pretty high for a athlon.
    --
    vista policy violation: Microsoft optical mouse found penguin patterns
    on mousepad. Partition scan in progress to remove offending
    incompatible products. Reactivate MS software.
    Linux 2.6.17-mm1,Xorg7.1/nvidia [LinuxCounter#295241,ICQ#4918962]
     
    Walter Mautner, Mar 14, 2007
    #32
  13. alice

    w_tom Guest

    On Mar 14, 12:12 am, "PeeCee" <> wrote:
    > ...
    > You'll note I don't mention power supply, your description of what happened
    > makes it highly unlikely it is power supply related.
    > ...
    >
    > If the minimum configuration does 'not' start then you will have to arrange
    > to try the CPU in another known good motherboard - or- take it to a tech
    > with the skills to diagnose hardware problems.


    Unfortunately that list of potential problems is long exponentially
    longer because shotgunning was used. Power supply removed.
    Components disconnected. Most everything may have been changed.
    Therefore the integrity of the entire 'system' must be confirmed. One
    item that can cause everything else to appear failed or intermittent
    and that is no longer 'known good' is the power supply 'system'. A
    power supply is the foundation of the entire computer. Any problems
    here can appear as failures elsewhere. We need to determine what is
    good since most everything is now suspect. Therefore start with the
    power supply. First establish what is good and move out from there.

    Due to shotgunning, even that power supply is now on the list of
    potential problems.
     
    w_tom, Mar 14, 2007
    #33
  14. alice

    w_tom Guest

    On Mar 14, 12:12 am, "PeeCee" <> wrote:
    > ...
    > You'll note I don't mention power supply, your description of what happened
    > makes it highly unlikely it is power supply related.
    > ...
    >
    > If the minimum configuration does 'not' start then you will have to arrange
    > to try the CPU in another known good motherboard - or- take it to a tech
    > with the skills to diagnose hardware problems.


    Unfortunately that list of potential problems is long exponentially
    longer because shotgunning was used. Power supply removed.
    Components disconnected. Most everything may have been changed.
    Therefore the integrity of the entire 'system' must be confirmed. One
    item that can cause everything else to appear failed or intermittent
    and that is no longer 'known good' is the power supply 'system'. A
    power supply is the foundation of the entire computer. Any problems
    here can appear as failures elsewhere. We need to determine what is
    good since most everything is now suspect. Therefore start with the
    power supply. First establish what is good and move out from there.

    Due to shotgunning, even that power supply is now on the list of
    potential problems.
     
    w_tom, Mar 14, 2007
    #34
  15. alice

    alice Guest

    On Mar 14, 3:37 pm, "w_tom" <> wrote:
    > On Mar 14, 12:12 am, "PeeCee" <> wrote:
    >
    > > ...
    > > You'll note I don't mention power supply, your description of what happened
    > > makes it highly unlikely it is power supply related.
    > > ...

    >
    > > If the minimum configuration does 'not' start then you will have to arrange
    > > to try the CPU in another known good motherboard - or- take it to a tech
    > > with the skills to diagnose hardware problems.

    >
    > Unfortunately that list of potential problems is long exponentially
    > longer because shotgunning was used. Power supply removed.
    > Components disconnected. Most everything may have been changed.
    > Therefore the integrity of the entire 'system' must be confirmed. One
    > item that can cause everything else to appear failed or intermittent
    > and that is no longer 'known good' is the power supply 'system'. A
    > power supply is the foundation of the entire computer. Any problems
    > here can appear as failures elsewhere. We need to determine what is
    > good since most everything is now suspect. Therefore start with the
    > power supply. First establish what is good and move out from there.
    >
    > Due to shotgunning, even that power supply is now on the list of
    > potential problems.


    So you mean that because the power supply was taken out, then put back
    in, that it may have become damaged?
     
    alice, Mar 15, 2007
    #35
  16. alice

    PeeCee Guest

    "alice" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Mar 14, 3:37 pm, "w_tom" <> wrote:
    >> On Mar 14, 12:12 am, "PeeCee" <> wrote:
    >>
    >> > ...
    >> > You'll note I don't mention power supply, your description of what
    >> > happened
    >> > makes it highly unlikely it is power supply related.
    >> > ...

    >>
    >> > If the minimum configuration does 'not' start then you will have to
    >> > arrange
    >> > to try the CPU in another known good motherboard - or- take it to a
    >> > tech
    >> > with the skills to diagnose hardware problems.

    >>
    >> Unfortunately that list of potential problems is long exponentially
    >> longer because shotgunning was used. Power supply removed.
    >> Components disconnected. Most everything may have been changed.
    >> Therefore the integrity of the entire 'system' must be confirmed. One
    >> item that can cause everything else to appear failed or intermittent
    >> and that is no longer 'known good' is the power supply 'system'. A
    >> power supply is the foundation of the entire computer. Any problems
    >> here can appear as failures elsewhere. We need to determine what is
    >> good since most everything is now suspect. Therefore start with the
    >> power supply. First establish what is good and move out from there.
    >>
    >> Due to shotgunning, even that power supply is now on the list of
    >> potential problems.

    >
    > So you mean that because the power supply was taken out, then put back
    > in, that it may have become damaged?
    >


    Alice

    'Anything' is a possibility with computers.
    May I suggest you go with my 'minimum' configuration test, trying it using
    both power supplies.

    The reason it is suggested to measure the voltages with a digital multimeter
    is to eliminate the power supplies as the cause of the non start problems.
    Despite their best intentions, some of the advice offered on newsgroups such
    as this can lead you up blind alleys.
    My reading of the thread is someone 'fixed' a computer with similar symptoms
    as yours by replacing the power supply, ergo this 'must' be what is wrong
    with your computer.
    In your case (as I said above) my reading is somewhat different to this.
    Who you believe is up to you..

    However at the end of the day you may have to take the machine to a suitably
    experienced Tech if you are not able to determine the cause.

    Best
    Paul.
     
    PeeCee, Mar 15, 2007
    #36
  17. alice

    Cub Guest

    "alice" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I just opened up my PC case to take off the CPU fan and heatsink,
    > cleaned it, put it back on, and now the whole thing will not power on.
    > The power light comes on for about 5 seconds, and the CPU fan starts
    > to spin, then it just turns off.
    > The reason I cleaned the fan in the first place is because the machine
    > was overheating and randomly turning off frequently.
    > Is there any thing I can do at this point, and if I need to replace
    > parts, what should I start with?
    >


    The fan should have 3 wires , 2 for power and one for speed sense

    If the system can't see the fan spinning ( via the 3rd wire) then the power
    will be killed


    check the fan cable is

    a) connected to the right header on the motherboard , there may be 2 next to
    each other

    and

    b) get a different heatsink fan. you may have damage it


    Cub
     
    Cub, Mar 15, 2007
    #37
  18. alice

    w_tom Guest

    On Mar 14, 8:12 pm, "alice" <> wrote:
    > So you mean that because the power supply was taken out, then put back
    > in, that it may have become damaged


    Pee Cee demonstrated another good reason why shotgunning only
    creates problems. However, an old rule from a few generations of
    experience: if a problem can be created, then the most innovative
    thing in the room will create it - a human. An example of that rule
    came from White Sands too many decades ago: "If anything can fail,
    then it will fail."

    Damage was and has been observed because of swapping parts. For
    example, do you know that second power supply contains essential
    functions so that motherboard cannot be damaged? That required
    function is sometimes missing in discounted power supplies - that
    appear to be good. Parts were swapped because you have assumed a
    second power supply will not cause damage in another computer. You
    don't know. Even a power supply good in one system can act defective
    in another. More variables - more unknowns - have been added. Each
    'unknown' increases a problem's complexity 'exponentially'.

    Why start from scratch to recertify even the power supply 'system'?
    Since so much was changed, then almost nothing is known good. To
    attack a now exponentially complicated problem, eliminate variables
    and unknowns, one at a time. That cannot happen until a meter verifies
    a computer's foundation - the power supply 'system'. Not just the
    power supply; a 'system'. Did you know of the other 'system' parts?

    Currently you are trying to fix things based upon assumptions. If
    the second power supply did not fix things, then is the first power
    supply good? Of course not.

    You have even assumed a conclusion - that I said moving a power
    supply might have damaged a power supply. Demonstrated above is that
    shotgunning may have even caused other changes. We have not even
    considered damage from static electricity. Did you know components
    resilient to 15,000 volts can be easily damaged by but a few thousand
    volts when cables are disconnected? Once disconnected, much of what
    protects electronics completely disappears. You would not even see or
    feel that few thousand volt discharge as it destroys more
    electronics. Just another in a long list of too many reasons why we
    first collect facts before replacing something. Just another reason
    why shotgunning may complicate.

    Again, let's review history. Your original problem was that machine
    was "randomly turning off frequently". So you assumed it must be a
    heating problem. Then you assumed the heating must be in CPU. Having
    made assumptions, you shotgunned - removed a heatsink assembly. Now
    computer does not work at all. You then assumed something completely
    unrelated - power supply. Disconnected drive cables. What may have
    only been one problem may now be three or four problems because of
    assumptions rather than "follow the evidence". Shotgunning created
    more problems.

    It's a learning experience. But only if you include what was posted
    here so that the experience teaches something. Experience without
    underlying concepts teaches little.

    Get the meter. Discover what is and is not functional before
    changing anything more. Do not shotgun.
     
    w_tom, Mar 16, 2007
    #38
  19. alice

    Leythos Guest

    On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:15:14 -0700, w_tom wrote:
    >
    > Get the meter. Discover what is and is not functional before
    > changing anything more. Do not shotgun.


    By the time they find/buy a meter they could have swapped out the PSU and
    been up and running without the cost of a Meter they may never use again.

    --
    Want to know what PCBUTTS1 is really about?
    *** WARNING - these links contain foul/pornographic content of an
    abusive nature created by PCBUTTS1 and still hosted on his public
    website ***
    http://www.pcbutts1.com/rlk/rlk.htm ,
    http://www.pcbutts1.com/license.htm ,
    http://www.pcbutts1.com/downloads/max.htm ,
    http://www.pcbutts1.com/downloads/mpv.htm ,
    http://www.pcbutts1.com/downloads/wtcpcb.htm ,
    http://www.pcbutts1.com/cracks.htm ,
    http://www.pcbutts1.com/Loutheasshole.htm
    All while spamming his company website at: http://www.seedsv.com
     
    Leythos, Mar 16, 2007
    #39
  20. alice

    alice Guest

    On Mar 16, 6:24 am, Leythos <> wrote:
    > On Thu, 15 Mar 2007 22:15:14 -0700, w_tom wrote:
    >
    > > Get the meter. Discover what is and is not functional before
    > > changing anything more. Do not shotgun.

    >
    > By the time they find/buy a meter they could have swapped out the PSU and
    > been up and running without the cost of a Meter they may never use again.
    >


    I already have swapped the PSU (ie shotgunning), and that didn't work,
    and it does not prove or disprove what is or isn't working.
    The above posts are right, only a multimeter can tell me anything at
    this point.

    > --
    > Want to know what PCBUTTS1 is really about?
    > *** WARNING - these links contain foul/pornographic content of an
    > abusive nature created by PCBUTTS1 and still hosted on his public
    > website ***http://www.pcbutts1.com/rlk/rlk.htm...htm,http://www.pcbutts1.com/Loutheasshole.htm
    > All while spamming his company website at:http://www.seedsv.com
     
    alice, Mar 17, 2007
    #40
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