pc takeover

Discussion in 'Computer Security' started by stephen cass, Dec 8, 2005.

  1. stephen cass

    stephen cass Guest

    My internet connection appears to have been taken over by a company which
    appears to be saying that if I buy its product I can have my pc back!! Or
    maybe I'm wrong - I'm a bit of a dumbhead in this dept...

    Here are the symptoms:

    Constant pop-up messages inform me I have been infected by spyware and I am
    advised to 'click here' to protect the pc, and when I do so I am connected
    via internet explorer to Spy Axe free download but in order to register and
    use I must pay. If I type in another web address I get a message saying
    adware has prevented my connection and I am urged to use Spy Axe to solve
    the problem. Toolbars in explorer are also changed - Both google and yahoo
    have disappeared.


    Also I am told I am and by a virusiworm_attck_v122.. I am advised to 'click
    here' I am connected to 'Spy Trooper' ...and the rest you know from above.

    Any suggestions as to what to do?
     
    stephen cass, Dec 8, 2005
    #1
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  2. stephen cass

    Abyss Guest

    Hmm, If you cant connect to any site, Your pretty much screwed. You
    arent 'taken over' You just have bad 'spyware' problems. Funny that an
    Anti-Spyware program uses Spyware to get you to buy its product -.-; If
    you can, get on Download.com and get Ad-Aware, and Spybot S&D, download
    them both (Ad-Aware is Free, But has a message urging you to buy the
    Special Member Edition, or someting like that, You dont have to, and
    Spybot is free) If you cant get to it on your computer, get on someone
    elses, and download them to a disk. Run them both, and youll find the
    Spyware.

    Any questions, Email me or Post here, and Ill check up on it.
    Good Luck :)
     
    Abyss, Dec 8, 2005
    #2
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  3. stephen cass

    itsecgirl Guest

    Here's what I suggest:

    1. Stop clicking and start cleaning. If you suspect there's a virus or
    spyware on your computer, you need to stop clicking on what they want
    you to do. It will get worse before it gets better. :)

    2. Make sure you have the latest virus signature, do a full scan and
    clean.

    3. Make sure you have the latest Spyware signature, do a full scan and
    clean.

    4. Make sure you have a second form of Spyware software downloaded,
    make sure you have the latest Spyware signature, do a full scan and
    clean.

    This should usually take care of it. BTW, make sure you don't delete
    any Windows DLL files from your Spyware program. You might cause your
    Operation System to fail.

    Hope this helps!

    -itsecgirl
     
    itsecgirl, Dec 8, 2005
    #3
  4. From: "stephen cass" <>

    | My internet connection appears to have been taken over by a company which
    | appears to be saying that if I buy its product I can have my pc back!! Or
    | maybe I'm wrong - I'm a bit of a dumbhead in this dept...
    |
    | Here are the symptoms:
    |
    | Constant pop-up messages inform me I have been infected by spyware and I am
    | advised to 'click here' to protect the pc, and when I do so I am connected
    | via internet explorer to Spy Axe free download but in order to register and
    | use I must pay. If I type in another web address I get a message saying
    | adware has prevented my connection and I am urged to use Spy Axe to solve
    | the problem. Toolbars in explorer are also changed - Both google and yahoo
    | have disappeared.
    |
    | Also I am told I am and by a virusiworm_attck_v122.. I am advised to 'click
    | here' I am connected to 'Spy Trooper' ...and the rest you know from above.
    |
    | Any suggestions as to what to do?
    |

    Go through *ALL* of the following utilities !


    * Download noahdfear's SmitFraud and SpyAxe removal tool -- SmitRem.exe
    http://noahdfear.geekstogo.com/click counter/click.php?id=1

    http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/topic36868.html

    After you use that tool, go through the following.

    For non-viral malware...

    Please download, install and update the following software...

    * Ad-aware SE v1.06
    http://www.lavasoft.de/
    http://www.lavasoftusa.com/

    * SpyBot Search and Destroy v1.4
    http://security.kolla.de/

    After the software is updated, I suggest scanning the system in Safe Mode.

    I also suggest downloading, installing and updating BHODemon for any Browser Helper Objects
    that may be on the PC.

    * BHODemon
    http://www.definitivesolutions.com/bhodemon.htm

    For viral malware...

    * Download MULTI_AV.EXE from the URL --
    http://www.ik-cs.com/programs/virtools/Multi_AV.exe

    To use this utility, perform the following...
    Execute; Multi_AV.exe { Note: You must use the default folder C:\AV-CLS }
    Choose; Unzip
    Choose; Close

    Execute; C:\AV-CLS\StartMenu.BAT
    { or Double-click on 'Start Menu' in C:\AV-CLS }

    NOTE: You may have to disable your software FireWall or allow WGET.EXE to go through your
    FireWall to allow it to download the needed AV vendor related files.

    C:\AV-CLS\StartMenu.BAT -- { or Double-click on 'Start Menu' in C:\AV-CLS}
    This will bring up the initial menu of choices and should be executed in Normal Mode.
    This way all the components can be downloaded from each AV vendor's web site.
    The choices are; Sophos, Trend, McAfee, Kaspersky, Exit this menu and Reboot the PC.

    You can choose to go to each menu item and just download the needed files or you can
    download the files and perform a scan in Normal Mode. Once you have downloaded the files
    needed for each scanner you want to use, you should reboot the PC into Safe Mode [F8 key
    during boot] and re-run the menu again and choose which scanner you want to run in Safe
    Mode. It is suggested to run the scanners in both Safe Mode and Normal Mode.

    When the menu is displayed hitting 'H' or 'h' will bring up a more comprehensive PDF help
    file. http://www.ik-cs.com/multi-av.htm


    * * * Please report back your results * * *



    --
    Dave
    http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
    http://www.ik-cs.com/got-a-virus.htm
     
    David H. Lipman, Dec 8, 2005
    #4
  5. stephen cass

    Donnie Guest

    "stephen cass" <> wrote in message
    news:%jWlf.17841$...
    > My internet connection appears to have been taken over by a company which
    > appears to be saying that if I buy its product I can have my pc back!! Or
    > maybe I'm wrong - I'm a bit of a dumbhead in this dept...
    >
    > Here are the symptoms:
    >
    > Constant pop-up messages inform me I have been infected by spyware and I

    am
    > advised to 'click here' to protect the pc, and when I do so I am connected
    > via internet explorer to Spy Axe free download but in order to register

    and
    > use I must pay. If I type in another web address I get a message saying
    > adware has prevented my connection and I am urged to use Spy Axe to solve
    > the problem. Toolbars in explorer are also changed - Both google and yahoo
    > have disappeared.
    >
    >
    > Also I am told I am and by a virusiworm_attck_v122.. I am advised to

    'click
    > here' I am connected to 'Spy Trooper' ...and the rest you know from

    above.
    >
    > Any suggestions as to what to do?
    >

    ###########################
    I would look in the registry. Search it for spy axe or trooper. Search for
    redirect too. Also look in
    HKLM
    Software
    Microsoft
    Windows
    CurrentVersion
    Run
    Delete any strange keys.
     
    Donnie, Dec 9, 2005
    #5
  6. stephen cass

    Winged Guest

    David H. Lipman wrote:
    > From: "stephen cass" <>
    >
    > | My internet connection appears to have been taken over by a company which
    > | appears to be saying that if I buy its product I can have my pc back!! Or
    > | maybe I'm wrong - I'm a bit of a dumbhead in this dept...
    > |
    > | Here are the symptoms:
    > |
    > | Constant pop-up messages inform me I have been infected by spyware and I am
    > | advised to 'click here' to protect the pc, and when I do so I am connected
    > | via internet explorer to Spy Axe free download but in order to register and
    > | use I must pay. If I type in another web address I get a message saying
    > | adware has prevented my connection and I am urged to use Spy Axe to solve
    > | the problem. Toolbars in explorer are also changed - Both google and yahoo
    > | have disappeared.
    > |
    > | Also I am told I am and by a virusiworm_attck_v122.. I am advised to 'click
    > | here' I am connected to 'Spy Trooper' ...and the rest you know from above.
    > |
    > | Any suggestions as to what to do?
    > |
    >
    > Go through *ALL* of the following utilities !
    >
    >
    > * Download noahdfear's SmitFraud and SpyAxe removal tool -- SmitRem.exe
    > http://noahdfear.geekstogo.com/click counter/click.php?id=1
    >
    > http://www.bleepingcomputer.com/forums/topic36868.html
    >
    > After you use that tool, go through the following.
    >
    > For non-viral malware...
    >
    > Please download, install and update the following software...
    >
    > * Ad-aware SE v1.06
    > http://www.lavasoft.de/
    > http://www.lavasoftusa.com/
    >
    > * SpyBot Search and Destroy v1.4
    > http://security.kolla.de/
    >
    > After the software is updated, I suggest scanning the system in Safe Mode.
    >
    > I also suggest downloading, installing and updating BHODemon for any Browser Helper Objects
    > that may be on the PC.
    >
    > * BHODemon
    > http://www.definitivesolutions.com/bhodemon.htm
    >
    > For viral malware...
    >
    > * Download MULTI_AV.EXE from the URL --
    > http://www.ik-cs.com/programs/virtools/Multi_AV.exe
    >
    > To use this utility, perform the following...
    > Execute; Multi_AV.exe { Note: You must use the default folder C:\AV-CLS }
    > Choose; Unzip
    > Choose; Close
    >
    > Execute; C:\AV-CLS\StartMenu.BAT
    > { or Double-click on 'Start Menu' in C:\AV-CLS }
    >
    > NOTE: You may have to disable your software FireWall or allow WGET.EXE to go through your
    > FireWall to allow it to download the needed AV vendor related files.
    >
    > C:\AV-CLS\StartMenu.BAT -- { or Double-click on 'Start Menu' in C:\AV-CLS}
    > This will bring up the initial menu of choices and should be executed in Normal Mode.
    > This way all the components can be downloaded from each AV vendor's web site.
    > The choices are; Sophos, Trend, McAfee, Kaspersky, Exit this menu and Reboot the PC.
    >
    > You can choose to go to each menu item and just download the needed files or you can
    > download the files and perform a scan in Normal Mode. Once you have downloaded the files
    > needed for each scanner you want to use, you should reboot the PC into Safe Mode [F8 key
    > during boot] and re-run the menu again and choose which scanner you want to run in Safe
    > Mode. It is suggested to run the scanners in both Safe Mode and Normal Mode.
    >
    > When the menu is displayed hitting 'H' or 'h' will bring up a more comprehensive PDF help
    > file. http://www.ik-cs.com/multi-av.htm
    >
    >
    > * * * Please report back your results * * *
    >
    >
    >


    David,

    Does BHO demon show anything different than SPYBOT in advanced mode
    under the tools menu "BHOs"? What additional capability BHO demon
    provides that Spybot can't do. Not questioning methods, good advice,
    but I am curious what BHO demon provides.

    Winged
     
    Winged, Dec 9, 2005
    #6
  7. stephen cass

    Guest

    HI Stephen!

    I had the same problem to with this Spy Axe thing.
    I frend of mine send me this link and i followed all the instructions.
    And guess what, It works. All the Spy Axe was removed!!

    http://www.2-spyware.com/remove-spyaxe.html

    Good Luck!!
     
    , Dec 9, 2005
    #7
  8. stephen cass

    traveler 66 Guest

    On Thu, 08 Dec 2005 13:13:31 GMT, "stephen cass"
    <> wrote:

    >My internet connection appears to have been taken over by a company which
    >appears to be saying that if I buy its product I can have my pc back!! Or
    >maybe I'm wrong - I'm a bit of a dumbhead in this dept...
    >
    >Here are the symptoms:
    >
    >Constant pop-up messages inform me I have been infected by spyware and I am
    >advised to 'click here' to protect the pc, and when I do so I am connected
    >via internet explorer to Spy Axe free download but in order to register and
    >use I must pay. If I type in another web address I get a message saying
    >adware has prevented my connection and I am urged to use Spy Axe to solve
    >the problem. Toolbars in explorer are also changed - Both google and yahoo
    >have disappeared.
    >
    >
    >Also I am told I am and by a virusiworm_attck_v122.. I am advised to 'click
    >here' I am connected to 'Spy Trooper' ...and the rest you know from above.
    >
    >Any suggestions as to what to do?


    I agree with the other poster, addaware & spybot are your best bet &
    thier clean programs, be careful with some of the other spy remove
    software out there, for a while some of them were actually installing
    spyware on your box, they may still be?
    >
     
    traveler 66, Dec 9, 2005
    #8
  9. From: "Winged" <>


    | David,
    |
    | Does BHO demon show anything different than SPYBOT in advanced mode
    | under the tools menu "BHOs"? What additional capability BHO demon
    | provides that Spybot can't do. Not questioning methods, good advice,
    | but I am curious what BHO demon provides.
    |
    | Winged

    Ad-aware SE and and SpyBot S&D work by signatures. BHODemon just shows all Browser Helper
    Objects found on the PC. You can disable or remove those that are unidentified or unknown.

    Unfortunately, the author had a devasting fire and is not updating the software at this
    time.

    --
    Dave
    http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
    http://www.ik-cs.com/got-a-virus.htm
     
    David H. Lipman, Dec 9, 2005
    #9
  10. stephen cass

    shplink Guest

    shplink, Dec 9, 2005
    #10
  11. stephen cass

    nemo_outis Guest

    "David H. Lipman" <DLipman~nospam~@Verizon.Net> wrote in
    news:4Zgmf.6$qF6.3@trnddc01:

    > From: "Winged" <>
    >
    >
    >| David,
    >|
    >| Does BHO demon show anything different than SPYBOT in advanced mode
    >| under the tools menu "BHOs"? What additional capability BHO demon
    >| provides that Spybot can't do. Not questioning methods, good advice,
    >| but I am curious what BHO demon provides.
    >|
    >| Winged
    >
    > Ad-aware SE and and SpyBot S&D work by signatures. BHODemon just
    > shows all Browser Helper Objects found on the PC. You can disable or
    > remove those that are unidentified or unknown.
    >
    > Unfortunately, the author had a devasting fire and is not updating the
    > software at this time.
    >




    Then you may wish to use "Hijack This" from Meijin, It makes little
    attempt to prevent false positives, and it doesn't remove anything but only
    reports, so you must know what you are doing - but it is thorough!

    http://www.spywareinfo.com/~merijn/downloads.html

    Regards,
     
    nemo_outis, Dec 10, 2005
    #11
  12. From: "nemo_outis" <>


    | Then you may wish to use "Hijack This" from Meijin, It makes little
    | attempt to prevent false positives, and it doesn't remove anything but only
    | reports, so you must know what you are doing - but it is thorough!
    |
    | http://www.spywareinfo.com/~merijn/downloads.html
    |
    | Regards,

    HJT this does much, much more. BHODemon only does Browser Helper Objects.
    Use of HJT can be intimidating for the newbie and if the user checks the wrong items for
    reomval the user can have disasterous effects.

    I like HJT but I'll tell 'ya... I am tired of newbies posting HJT logs all over the place.

    --
    Dave
    http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
    http://www.ik-cs.com/got-a-virus.htm
     
    David H. Lipman, Dec 10, 2005
    #12
  13. stephen cass

    nemo_outis Guest

    "David H. Lipman" <DLipman~nospam~@Verizon.Net> wrote in
    news:S8smf.1461$Ea6.537@trnddc08:

    > From: "nemo_outis" <>
    >
    >
    >| Then you may wish to use "Hijack This" from Meijin, It makes little
    >| attempt to prevent false positives, and it doesn't remove anything
    >| but only reports, so you must know what you are doing - but it is
    >| thorough!
    >|
    >| http://www.spywareinfo.com/~merijn/downloads.html
    >|
    >| Regards,
    >
    > HJT this does much, much more. BHODemon only does Browser Helper
    > Objects. Use of HJT can be intimidating for the newbie and if the user
    > checks the wrong items for reomval the user can have disasterous
    > effects.
    >
    > I like HJT but I'll tell 'ya... I am tired of newbies posting HJT
    > logs all over the place.
    >




    Yep, it's a powerful tool, and, just like a chainsaw, you can cut your leg
    off if you don't know what you're doing. But, I think it's worthwhile for
    even a newbie to invest the time to master it. Besides, the discipline
    acquired will pay off when he tries to learn Ethereal :)

    Regards,
     
    nemo_outis, Dec 10, 2005
    #13
  14. From: "nemo_outis" <>


    | Yep, it's a powerful tool, and, just like a chainsaw, you can cut your leg
    | off if you don't know what you're doing. But, I think it's worthwhile for
    | even a newbie to invest the time to master it. Besides, the discipline
    | acquired will pay off when he tries to learn Ethereal :)
    |
    | Regards,
    |

    I think the investement of time would be better served in learning and practicing Safe Hex
    so the user isn't infected in the first place.

    --
    Dave
    http://www.claymania.com/removal-trojan-adware.html
    http://www.ik-cs.com/got-a-virus.htm
     
    David H. Lipman, Dec 10, 2005
    #14
  15. stephen cass

    nemo_outis Guest

    "David H. Lipman" <DLipman~nospam~@Verizon.Net> wrote in
    news:K1Cmf.3351$hB6.2617@trnddc05:

    > From: "nemo_outis" <>
    >
    >
    >| Yep, it's a powerful tool, and, just like a chainsaw, you can cut
    >| your leg off if you don't know what you're doing. But, I think it's
    >| worthwhile for even a newbie to invest the time to master it.
    >| Besides, the discipline acquired will pay off when he tries to learn
    >| Ethereal :)
    >|
    >| Regards,
    >|
    >
    > I think the investement of time would be better served in learning and
    > practicing Safe Hex so the user isn't infected in the first place.
    >



    Well, we're rapidly converging on the observation that computers, which
    supposedly save time in accomplishing tasks, are instead a black hole for
    time and energy. One spends a great deal of one's time fiddling with this
    parameter or that, with utilities, with configuring and reconfiguring
    software, with updates to the OS, drivers, and apps, defragging, virus and
    trojan checking, eliminating spyware, tuning firewall rules, hunting down
    strange and obscure interactions, and on and on. Not to mention assembling
    the kit, comparing this virus checker to that, researching bugs and
    security threats, and posting to newsgroups like this. It's surprising any
    work gets done!

    So, yes, I suppose it would be very nice indeed if one could skip all or
    most of this. For instance, as you say, it would be lovely if prevention
    were enough. However, while I agree that prevention should be the
    mainstay, it is, in the current state of affairs, not enough. No, in
    addition to preventative measures, we are almost always compelled to resort
    to mitigative measures to deal with the shit that inevitably gets through
    ourdefenses.

    And so, unless one has mountains of money to spend on third parties to
    maintain a system, one must learn how to do these things oneself. And, as
    Aristotle pointed out, there is no royal road to learning. And so I
    counselled the poster to learn how to use the heavy-duty tools and not
    merely gutted ones.

    Regards,
     
    nemo_outis, Dec 10, 2005
    #15
  16. stephen cass

    Moe Trin Guest

    On 10 Dec 2005, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.computer.security, in article
    <Xns972860E15C30Babcxyzcom@204.153.244.170>, nemo_outis wrote:

    >"David H. Lipman" <DLipman~nospam~@Verizon.Net> wrote


    >> I think the investement of time would be better served in learning and
    >> practicing Safe Hex so the user isn't infected in the first place.


    Agreed

    >Well, we're rapidly converging on the observation that computers, which
    >supposedly save time in accomplishing tasks, are instead a black hole for
    >time and energy.


    Congratulations. You've just figured out that they lied to you
    when they told you even an untrained monkey on crack can use a
    computer. Yes, there's a lot to learn

    Up-thread, you compare an application to a chainsaw. Thing is, most
    people do learn not to hold the thing by the end with the chain, and
    not to many people use a chainsaw to drive nails, mix paint, or clean
    the dishes. Yet the same people do insist on using one application
    as a new reader, email tool, web browser, word processor, database tool,
    spreadsheet reader, and every thing else, and can't see why that one
    tool doesn't do everything perfectly.

    >One spends a great deal of one's time fiddling with this parameter or that,
    >with utilities, with configuring and reconfiguring software,


    The "average user" ??? Since when? Most are struggling with the concept
    of single verses double click - and you expect them to be twisting knobs?

    >with updates to the OS, drivers, and apps,


    the price of progress

    >defragging, virus and trojan checking, eliminating spyware, tuning
    >firewall rules, hunting down strange and obscure interactions, and on
    >and on.


    Why are they installing the virus/trojan/spyware in the first place?
    Could it be because they don't know how to operate a push-button
    telephone, much less a computer? Could it be that the only tool they
    "know" how to use is set to do all these things for them, so they
    won't have to learn? Or do they believe that the "mal-ware fairy" installs
    all this crap while they aren't looking? It's interesting that the third
    party tools are able to reduce this risk, and are still usable by a garden
    slug that has been snorting mushroom fungi all day.

    >Not to mention assembling the kit, comparing this virus checker to that,
    >researching bugs and security threats, and posting to newsgroups like
    >this. It's surprising any work gets done!


    Most users (and virtually all home users) shouldn't be doing this, as
    it really is beyond their skill set. Leave this to the "professionals"
    at CompUSA (or where ever the user buys this crap).

    >So, yes, I suppose it would be very nice indeed if one could skip all or
    >most of this. For instance, as you say, it would be lovely if prevention
    >were enough. However, while I agree that prevention should be the
    >mainstay, it is, in the current state of affairs, not enough.


    Ignoring magazines (which are only there to sell the latest crap to the
    sheep - remember, you are the product the magazine is selling to the
    advertisers), how many "technical" books do you have on computers?
    Most users don't have any, because they don't feel a need to know anything.
    After all, you just pick up the chain saw, and yank this cord....

    >No, in addition to preventative measures, we are almost always compelled
    >to resort to mitigative measures to deal with the shit that inevitably
    >gets through ourdefenses.


    What defenses?

    >And so, unless one has mountains of money to spend on third parties to
    >maintain a system, one must learn how to do these things oneself.


    No one expects to have to maintain their own car - but the various states
    and insurance companies have managed to require that drivers have some
    training and pass tests before being turned loose onto the roads? Aren't
    you glad the national authorities that license pilots have substantially
    more stringent training and testing requirements?

    -------------------
    > Perhaps a licensing process to qualify to purchase a computer...?


    I seriously wonder, at times. It's either that or redefine "computer"
    to be something worthwhile investing time configuring and taking pride
    in the running thereof, rather than some tarted-up Etch-A-Sketch used
    for propagating your shopping-lists via the latest email virus.
    -------------------

    >And, as Aristotle pointed out, there is no royal road to learning. And
    >so I counselled the poster to learn how to use the heavy-duty tools and
    >not merely gutted ones.


    Tell that to the computer industry. "No, No, No - any sheep can operate
    one of our computers" - you see the results.

    Old guy
     
    Moe Trin, Dec 11, 2005
    #16
  17. David H. Lipman, Dec 11, 2005
    #17
  18. stephen cass

    nemo_outis Guest

    (Moe Trin) wrote in
    news::

    >...snip...
    >
    >>And so, unless one has mountains of money to spend on third parties to
    >>maintain a system, one must learn how to do these things oneself.

    >
    > No one expects to have to maintain their own car - but the various
    > states and insurance companies have managed to require that drivers
    > have some training and pass tests before being turned loose onto the
    > roads? Aren't you glad the national authorities that license pilots
    > have substantially more stringent training and testing requirements?



    No one expects to maintain his car *today!* For, say, the first 30 or
    more years after the automobile was available to the public maintaining
    one's car was a necessary element of ownership (for all but the very
    rich) - in fact, tinkering was half the appeal. The test for an
    operator's licence required the ability to make "running repairs" - a
    chauffer's licence required a considerably higher level of familiarity
    and skill. (My late father's chauffer licence, granted in the late 1920s
    in Montreal, involved extensive tests on mechanical aspects, not mere
    operation).

    Computers for the masses have only been around a little over 20 years -
    it is not all that surprising that they too require significant skill
    beyond mere operation if one does not wish to be a plaything of the
    vicissitudes of fortune.



    > -------------------
    > > Perhaps a licensing process to qualify to purchase a computer...?

    >
    > I seriously wonder, at times. It's either that or redefine
    > "computer" to be something worthwhile investing time configuring and
    > taking pride in the running thereof, rather than some tarted-up
    > Etch-A-Sketch used for propagating your shopping-lists via the
    > latest email virus.
    > -------------------
    >
    >>And, as Aristotle pointed out, there is no royal road to learning.
    >>And so I counselled the poster to learn how to use the heavy-duty
    >>tools and not merely gutted ones.

    >
    > Tell that to the computer industry. "No, No, No - any sheep can
    > operate one of our computers" - you see the results.



    The gullibility of the public may explain but does not excuse the
    charlatanry of the industry. However, be that as it may, if one does not
    class oneself as one of the sheeple who are their prey it is necessary to
    learn how to do at least "running repairs" and perhaps even acquire the
    greater skills analogous to those of a chauffer in the early auto days.
    Such was my advice to the poster and I stand by it.

    Regards,
     
    nemo_outis, Dec 11, 2005
    #18
  19. stephen cass

    Jim Watt Guest

    On 11 Dec 2005 23:19:14 GMT, "nemo_outis" <> wrote:

    >No one expects to maintain his car *today!* For, say, the first 30 or
    >more years after the automobile was available to the public maintaining
    >one's car was a necessary element of ownership (for all but the very
    >rich) - in fact, tinkering was half the appeal. The test for an
    >operator's licence required the ability to make "running repairs" - a
    >chauffer's licence required a considerably higher level of familiarity
    >and skill. (My late father's chauffer licence, granted in the late 1920s
    >in Montreal, involved extensive tests on mechanical aspects, not mere
    >operation).
    >
    >Computers for the masses have only been around a little over 20 years -
    >it is not all that surprising that they too require significant skill
    >beyond mere operation if one does not wish to be a plaything of the
    >vicissitudes of fortune.


    Unfortunately the analogy falls down because although those employed
    in the motor trade are known for their complete honesty and lack of
    deceit - computer cowboys are worse and cost more.

    Lets be honest, if you have a clue its sufficiently shitty
    straightening out business computers, home ones and their dumb
    worthless owners who want everything for free really suck.

    So tools from MS and doing it yourself are a good idea for Mr Average.

    --
    Jim Watt
    http://www.gibnet.com
     
    Jim Watt, Dec 12, 2005
    #19
  20. "nemo_outis" <> wrote in message
    news:Xns9729A6092C540abcxyzcom@204.153.244.170...
    > (Moe Trin) wrote in
    > news::
    >
    > >...snip...
    > >
    > >>And so, unless one has mountains of money to spend on third parties to
    > >>maintain a system, one must learn how to do these things oneself.

    > >
    > > No one expects to have to maintain their own car - but the various
    > > states and insurance companies have managed to require that drivers
    > > have some training and pass tests before being turned loose onto the
    > > roads? Aren't you glad the national authorities that license pilots
    > > have substantially more stringent training and testing requirements?

    >
    >
    > No one expects to maintain his car *today!* For, say, the first 30 or
    > more years after the automobile was available to the public maintaining
    > one's car was a necessary element of ownership (for all but the very
    > rich) - in fact, tinkering was half the appeal. The test for an
    > operator's licence required the ability to make "running repairs" - a
    > chauffer's licence required a considerably higher level of familiarity
    > and skill. (My late father's chauffer licence, granted in the late 1920s
    > in Montreal, involved extensive tests on mechanical aspects, not mere
    > operation).


    As a digression on cars.. people have been tinkering with cars for a lot
    more that 30 years (even if we limit the definition of "car" to something
    with a four-stroke Otto cycle petrol engine, that still gives a century
    until fuel injection systems were routinely fitted to typical family cars,
    at least in Europe).

    > Computers for the masses have only been around a little over 20 years -
    > it is not all that surprising that they too require significant skill
    > beyond mere operation if one does not wish to be a plaything of the
    > vicissitudes of fortune.


    <Pedant>
    Actually, the vast majority of computers are transparently simple to use.
    It's just the general-purpose machines with complex user interfaces that get
    to people ;o)
    </Pedant>

    Thought that might have been where you were leading with your car analogy..?

    --

    Hairy One Kenobi

    Disclaimer: the opinions expressed in this opinion do not necessarily
    reflect the opinions of the highly-opinionated person expressing the opinion
    in the first place. So there!
     
    Hairy One Kenobi, Dec 12, 2005
    #20
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