Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of a P&Swith the disadvantages of a D-SLR

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by SMS, Nov 5, 2008.

  1. SMS

    SMS Guest

    Early testing of the Micro 4:3 Lumix G1 confirms the fears that everyone
    has had. They're stuck with the contrast detection auto-focus system, so
    shutter/focus lag is much slower than that of a digital SLR. Yet it's
    still relatively large, and it weighs more than the lightest 4:3 digital
    SLR.

    Some 4:3 lenses can be used on the G1, via an adapter, but of course
    that defeats much of the reason for going to Micro 4:3 (manual focus
    must be use on some of the lenses, while auto-focus works on others).

    I see Micro 4:3 as being the disc or APS film of the 21st century. It's
    essentially a P&S camera with interchangeable lenses. If you can live
    with the drawbacks of a P&S, save money and get a Canon G10. If you want
    the advantages of a D-SLR, buy a D-SLR rather than this kludge.
     
    SMS, Nov 5, 2008
    #1
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  2. SMS

    Roy G Guest

    Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of a P&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR

    "SMS" <> wrote in message
    news:RhhQk.4088$...
    > Early testing of the Micro 4:3 Lumix G1 confirms the fears that everyone
    > has had. They're stuck with the contrast detection auto-focus system, so
    > shutter/focus lag is much slower than that of a digital SLR. Yet it's
    > still relatively large, and it weighs more than the lightest 4:3 digital
    > SLR.
    >
    > Some 4:3 lenses can be used on the G1, via an adapter, but of course that
    > defeats much of the reason for going to Micro 4:3 (manual focus must be
    > use on some of the lenses, while auto-focus works on others).
    >
    > I see Micro 4:3 as being the disc or APS film of the 21st century. It's
    > essentially a P&S camera with interchangeable lenses. If you can live with
    > the drawbacks of a P&S, save money and get a Canon G10. If you want the
    > advantages of a D-SLR, buy a D-SLR rather than this kludge.



    Are you just trying to provoke what'is'name.

    Roy G
     
    Roy G, Nov 5, 2008
    #2
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  3. SMS

    SMS Guest

    Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of aP&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR

    Roy G wrote:

    <snip>

    > Are you just trying to provoke what'is'name.


    LOL, you mean "he who has many names?" No, I figured out how to filter
    based on message ID, so now I filter all messages ending with "@4ax.com."

    There was recently a thread about someone looking for something a little
    smaller than their D-SLR, and they were considering a G10 but they
    weren't willing to give up all the advantages of the D-SLR. Micro 4:3
    seemed to hold some promise, and everyone thought that it was still a
    ways away, but then Panasonic released the G1.

    Micro 4:3 has turned out to be simply adding interchangeable lenses to a
    P&S. Why would anyone buy Micro 4:3 rather than a long range ZLR? The
    Micro 4:3 companies must assume that the reason D-SLR sales are
    skyrocketing is because people want interchangeable lenses, but this is
    not the major reason. D-SLR sales are rising because of other major
    advantages, as outlined in the earlier thread, "Thirteen Reasons to
    choose a Digital SLR over a Point and Shoot."

    One advantage of Micro 4:3 over a ZLR is that you can have a smaller
    package when using a wide angle versus a telephoto lens. It also has a
    larger sensor, so presumably it won't suffer from the noise problems of
    P&S cameras as much, though it's still a much smaller sensor than D-SLRs
    from Canon, Nikon, Pentax, or Sony.

    I can't imagine many people buying into such a crippled system as Micro
    4:3. One of the major reasons to buy a digital SLR is to get rid of the
    painful shutter lag caused by the slow contrast detection based
    auto-focus, but at least the G1 retains contrast detection. I guess if
    you would otherwise be using those funky lens adapters on a P&S in order
    to increase the telephoto range or increase the wide angle, then Micro
    4:3 would at least increase the quality, but anyone that cares about
    image quality has already migrated to a digital SLR. Micro 4:3 is like
    improving on a square wheel by making it triangular to eliminate one bump.

    Ricoh used to offer phase-detection in a P&S so it's possible, but
    expensive to do so.

    Steve


    Gerald Ford's Words from 1974 Come to Mind Today...

    "My fellow Americans, our long national nightmare is over."
     
    SMS, Nov 5, 2008
    #3
  4. SMS

    bmoag Guest

    Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of a P&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR

    It's the first product of a new paradigm.
    The original Nikon Coolpix, now a paperweight on my desktop, was technically
    a piece of cow excrement.
    Should Nikon have abandoned digital image capture because their first
    product stunk?
     
    bmoag, Nov 5, 2008
    #4
  5. SMS

    J. Clarke Guest

    Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of a P&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR

    bmoag wrote:
    > It's the first product of a new paradigm.
    > The original Nikon Coolpix, now a paperweight on my desktop, was
    > technically a piece of cow excrement.
    > Should Nikon have abandoned digital image capture because their
    > first
    > product stunk?


    What's "new" about the "paradigm"? It's just a half-sized RD-1 or M8
    right down to using Leica glass. All that's missing is the Visoflex,
    which I'm sure is coming.

    --
    --
    --John
    to email, dial "usenet" and validate
    (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
     
    J. Clarke, Nov 5, 2008
    #5
  6. SMS

    nospam Guest

    Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of a P&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR

    In article <RhhQk.4088$>, SMS
    <> wrote:

    > Early testing of the Micro 4:3 Lumix G1 confirms the fears that everyone
    > has had. They're stuck with the contrast detection auto-focus system, so
    > shutter/focus lag is much slower than that of a digital SLR.


    <http://www.dpreview.com/previews/panasonicG1/page10.asp>

    The good news is that - even in the prototypes we've tried -
    Panasonic's engineers have kept true to their word; the focus is not
    only astonishingly fast for a contrast detect system; it's easily as
    fast as any conventional SLR in this class.

    <http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/panasonic/dmc_g1-review/index.shtml>

    Before I first used the G1, I had big concerns about focusing
    performance. After all, contrast detect autofocus on traditional SLRs
    is, well, awful. Panasonic has hit one out of the park with the G1 --
    this camera focuses as quickly in live view mode as regular D-SLRs do
    with their optical viewfinders

    > Yet it's
    > still relatively large, and it weighs more than the lightest 4:3 digital
    > SLR.


    panasonic has stated that they deliberately made as large as it is for
    ergonomic reasons. also, this is just the first micro 4/3rds camera.
    there will be others.

    > Some 4:3 lenses can be used on the G1, via an adapter, but of course
    > that defeats much of the reason for going to Micro 4:3 (manual focus
    > must be use on some of the lenses, while auto-focus works on others).


    most people will get micro 4/3rds lenses, but those who have existing
    4/3rds lenses or want a particular focal length not yet offered in m43
    can still use them if they want. hopefully there will be adapters for
    nikon, canon, etc.

    > I see Micro 4:3 as being the disc or APS film of the 21st century. It's
    > essentially a P&S camera with interchangeable lenses. If you can live
    > with the drawbacks of a P&S, save money and get a Canon G10. If you want
    > the advantages of a D-SLR, buy a D-SLR rather than this kludge.


    although the g1 is an interesting camera, the real appeal of micro
    4/3rds are compact cameras with larger sensors.
     
    nospam, Nov 5, 2008
    #6
  7. SMS

    J. Clarke Guest

    Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of a P&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR

    nospam wrote:
    > In article <RhhQk.4088$>, SMS
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> Early testing of the Micro 4:3 Lumix G1 confirms the fears that
    >> everyone has had. They're stuck with the contrast detection
    >> auto-focus system, so shutter/focus lag is much slower than that of
    >> a digital SLR.

    >
    > <http://www.dpreview.com/previews/panasonicG1/page10.asp>
    >
    > The good news is that - even in the prototypes we've tried -
    > Panasonic's engineers have kept true to their word; the focus is
    > not
    > only astonishingly fast for a contrast detect system; it's easily
    > as
    > fast as any conventional SLR in this class.
    >
    > <http://www.dcresource.com/reviews/panasonic/dmc_g1-review/index.shtml>
    >
    > Before I first used the G1, I had big concerns about focusing
    > performance. After all, contrast detect autofocus on traditional
    > SLRs is, well, awful. Panasonic has hit one out of the park with
    > the G1 -- this camera focuses as quickly in live view mode as
    > regular D-SLRs do with their optical viewfinders
    >
    >> Yet it's
    >> still relatively large, and it weighs more than the lightest 4:3
    >> digital SLR.

    >
    > panasonic has stated that they deliberately made as large as it is
    > for
    > ergonomic reasons. also, this is just the first micro 4/3rds
    > camera.
    > there will be others.
    >
    >> Some 4:3 lenses can be used on the G1, via an adapter, but of
    >> course
    >> that defeats much of the reason for going to Micro 4:3 (manual
    >> focus
    >> must be use on some of the lenses, while auto-focus works on
    >> others).

    >
    > most people will get micro 4/3rds lenses, but those who have
    > existing
    > 4/3rds lenses or want a particular focal length not yet offered in
    > m43
    > can still use them if they want. hopefully there will be adapters
    > for
    > nikon, canon, etc.
    >
    >> I see Micro 4:3 as being the disc or APS film of the 21st century.
    >> It's essentially a P&S camera with interchangeable lenses. If you
    >> can live with the drawbacks of a P&S, save money and get a Canon
    >> G10. If you want the advantages of a D-SLR, buy a D-SLR rather than
    >> this kludge.

    >
    > although the g1 is an interesting camera, the real appeal of micro
    > 4/3rds are compact cameras with larger sensors.


    Which is what the G1 is.

    --
    --
    --John
    to email, dial "usenet" and validate
    (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
     
    J. Clarke, Nov 5, 2008
    #7
  8. SMS

    nospam Guest

    Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of a P&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR

    In article <>, J. Clarke
    <> wrote:

    > > although the g1 is an interesting camera, the real appeal of micro
    > > 4/3rds are compact cameras with larger sensors.

    >
    > Which is what the G1 is.


    no, the g1 is a dslr. i'm referring to something like a canon g9 but
    with a larger sensor.
     
    nospam, Nov 5, 2008
    #8
  9. SMS

    Charles Guest

    Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of a P&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR

    In article <UtjQk.5283$>, SMS
    <> wrote:

    > LOL, you mean "he who has many names?" No, I figured out how to filter
    > based on message ID, so now I filter all messages ending with "@4ax.com."


    Are you aware that message ID's ending in "4ax.com" means that the user
    is posting with the Forte Agent newsreader? That is a popular
    newsreader so if you filter out messages on that you are filtering out
    a broad swath of users that have nothing to do with your target. You
    are filtering all users of Forte Agent.

    --
    Charles
     
    Charles, Nov 6, 2008
    #9
  10. SMS

    dj_nme Guest

    Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of aP&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR

    nospam wrote:
    > In article <>, J. Clarke
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>> although the g1 is an interesting camera, the real appeal of micro
    >>> 4/3rds are compact cameras with larger sensors.

    >> Which is what the G1 is.

    >
    > no, the g1 is a dslr. i'm referring to something like a canon g9 but
    > with a larger sensor.


    No, the Panasonic DMC-G1 is not an SLR camera of any sort (digital or not).
    The G1 has not got an optical TTL(1) viewfinder and is missing a reflex
    system(2) which are the defining features of a SLR camera, digital or not.
    Interchangeable lenses does not an SLR camera make, otherwise you would
    have to also describe the Epson RD-1 and the Leica M8 as DSLR cameras
    too, which these are demonstrably not.

    The best way of describing the Panasonic DMC-G1 is as an EVIL(3) or
    DIL(4) camera, simply because it uses an EVF(5) and has interchangeable
    lenses.

    (1) TTL = Through The Lens, IE: the "taking" or objective lens which
    forms the image on the sensor or film inside the camera.
    (2) flipping mirror, fixed pellicle mirror, beamsplitter, ETC
    (3) EVIL = Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens
    (4) DIL = Digital Interchangeable Lens
    (5) EVF = Electronic ViewFinder
     
    dj_nme, Nov 6, 2008
    #10
  11. SMS

    nospam Guest

    Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of a P&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR

    In article
    <49123bf2$0$22599$>, dj_nme
    <> wrote:

    > >>> although the g1 is an interesting camera, the real appeal of micro
    > >>> 4/3rds are compact cameras with larger sensors.
    > >> Which is what the G1 is.

    > >
    > > no, the g1 is a dslr. i'm referring to something like a canon g9 but
    > > with a larger sensor.

    >
    > No, the Panasonic DMC-G1 is not an SLR camera of any sort (digital or not).
    > The G1 has not got an optical TTL(1) viewfinder and is missing a reflex
    > system(2) which are the defining features of a SLR camera, digital or not.
    > Interchangeable lenses does not an SLR camera make, otherwise you would
    > have to also describe the Epson RD-1 and the Leica M8 as DSLR cameras
    > too, which these are demonstrably not.


    true, but it's a whole lot closer to a dslr than a compact digicam.
     
    nospam, Nov 6, 2008
    #11
  12. SMS

    J. Clarke Guest

    Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of a P&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR

    nospam wrote:
    > In article
    > <49123bf2$0$22599$>,
    > dj_nme
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>>>> although the g1 is an interesting camera, the real appeal of
    >>>>> micro
    >>>>> 4/3rds are compact cameras with larger sensors.
    >>>> Which is what the G1 is.
    >>>
    >>> no, the g1 is a dslr. i'm referring to something like a canon g9
    >>> but with a larger sensor.

    >>
    >> No, the Panasonic DMC-G1 is not an SLR camera of any sort (digital
    >> or not). The G1 has not got an optical TTL(1) viewfinder and is
    >> missing a reflex system(2) which are the defining features of a SLR
    >> camera, digital or not. Interchangeable lenses does not an SLR
    >> camera make, otherwise you would have to also describe the Epson
    >> RD-1 and the Leica M8 as DSLR cameras
    >> too, which these are demonstrably not.

    >
    > true, but it's a whole lot closer to a dslr than a compact digicam.


    Why, because it has interchangeable lenses?

    --
    --
    --John
    to email, dial "usenet" and validate
    (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
     
    J. Clarke, Nov 6, 2008
    #12
  13. Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of a P&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR

    On Wed, 05 Nov 2008 16:53:55 -0800, nospam <> wrote:

    >In article
    ><49123bf2$0$22599$>, dj_nme
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >> >>> although the g1 is an interesting camera, the real appeal of micro
    >> >>> 4/3rds are compact cameras with larger sensors.
    >> >> Which is what the G1 is.
    >> >
    >> > no, the g1 is a dslr. i'm referring to something like a canon g9 but
    >> > with a larger sensor.

    >>
    >> No, the Panasonic DMC-G1 is not an SLR camera of any sort (digital or not).
    >> The G1 has not got an optical TTL(1) viewfinder and is missing a reflex
    >> system(2) which are the defining features of a SLR camera, digital or not.
    >> Interchangeable lenses does not an SLR camera make, otherwise you would
    >> have to also describe the Epson RD-1 and the Leica M8 as DSLR cameras
    >> too, which these are demonstrably not.

    >
    >true, but it's a whole lot closer to a dslr than a compact digicam.


    And isn't that a shame. It's still being drastically crippled by last-century's
    SLOW, inaccurate, image distorting, image shaking, short-life-span, easy to
    damage, costly to repair, obnoxiously loud, focal-plane shutter that exists in
    all d-slrs.

    Pity.

    Just think of the photography improvements and cost, size, and weight savings if
    they would just give up on perpetuating that ridiculously archaic mechanical
    concept.
     
    GarrisonSmith, Nov 6, 2008
    #13
  14. Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of a P&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR?

    dj_nme wrote:
    []
    > (1) TTL = Through The Lens, IE: the "taking" or objective lens which
    > forms the image on the sensor or film inside the camera.
    > (2) flipping mirror, fixed pellicle mirror, beamsplitter, ETC
    > (3) EVIL = Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens
    > (4) DIL = Digital Interchangeable Lens
    > (5) EVF = Electronic ViewFinder


    I'm surprised that DEVIL has been coined!

    DEVIL = Digital Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Nov 6, 2008
    #14
  15. Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of a P&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR?

    J. Clarke wrote:
    > nospam wrote:

    []
    >> true, but it's a whole lot closer to a dslr than a compact digicam.

    >
    > Why, because it has interchangeable lenses?


    And a much larger sensor.

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Nov 6, 2008
    #15
  16. SMS

    Mark Thomas Guest

    Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of aP&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR

    SMS wrote:
    > Early testing of the Micro 4:3 Lumix G1 confirms the fears...
    > so shutter/focus lag is much slower than that of a digital SLR.


    Links and actual figures for this "early testing"?
     
    Mark Thomas, Nov 6, 2008
    #16
  17. SMS

    J. Clarke Guest

    Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of a P&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR?

    David J Taylor wrote:
    > J. Clarke wrote:
    >> nospam wrote:

    > []
    >>> true, but it's a whole lot closer to a dslr than a compact
    >>> digicam.

    >>
    >> Why, because it has interchangeable lenses?

    >
    > And a much larger sensor.


    Much larger than in a Sony DSC-R1? Much larger than in a Sigma DP-1?

    --
    --
    --John
    to email, dial "usenet" and validate
    (was jclarke at eye bee em dot net)
     
    J. Clarke, Nov 6, 2008
    #17
  18. Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of a P&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR?

    J. Clarke wrote:
    > David J Taylor wrote:
    >> J. Clarke wrote:
    >>> nospam wrote:

    >> []
    >>>> true, but it's a whole lot closer to a dslr than a compact
    >>>> digicam.
    >>>
    >>> Why, because it has interchangeable lenses?

    >>
    >> And a much larger sensor.

    >
    > Much larger than in a Sony DSC-R1? Much larger than in a Sigma DP-1?


    Much larger than the "P&S" mentioned in the topic subject.

    You raise an interesting sideline with those other two cameras - they
    didn't seem to be all that successful as large sensor compact cameras.
    The Sony was huge and heavy with its add-on lenses - and the DP-1 rather
    specialised, with a dubious image quality reputation (deserved or not).
    Will the G1 with true interchangeable lenses fare any better?

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Nov 6, 2008
    #18
  19. SMS

    dj_nme Guest

    Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of aP&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR?

    David J Taylor wrote:
    > J. Clarke wrote:
    >> David J Taylor wrote:
    >>> J. Clarke wrote:
    >>>> nospam wrote:
    >>> []
    >>>>> true, but it's a whole lot closer to a dslr than a compact
    >>>>> digicam.
    >>>>
    >>>> Why, because it has interchangeable lenses?
    >>>
    >>> And a much larger sensor.

    >>
    >> Much larger than in a Sony DSC-R1? Much larger than in a Sigma DP-1?

    >
    > Much larger than the "P&S" mentioned in the topic subject.
    >
    > You raise an interesting sideline with those other two cameras - they
    > didn't seem to be all that successful as large sensor compact cameras.
    > The Sony was huge and heavy with its add-on lenses - and the DP-1 rather
    > specialised, with a dubious image quality reputation (deserved or not).


    The lack of interchangeable lens for the Sony DSC-R1 and Sigma DP2
    pretty much puts them in a seemingly dead-end.
    Nothing else is really needed by the owner, conversion lenses to get
    wider or longer can be bought more cheaply (at least cheaper than
    Sony's) elsewhere, cases and straps and filters similarly.

    Also, both of these cameras are in a bit of a no-man's land, not quite
    as capable/adaptable as a DSLR camera and not as compact as a
    small-sensor compact digicam.
    The Sigma DP1 and DP2 aren't very big, but the lack of a zoom lens in a
    fixed-lens compact seems problematic at best, IMHO.

    > Will the G1 with true interchangeable lenses fare any better?


    Consider that the only similar camera (small camera with large sensor
    and an interchangeable lens) currently available is the Leica M8.2.
    Unless the DMC-G1 is hideously over-priced, it should do okay at least.
    I am personally more inclined to prefer the styling of the Olympus
    mock-up of a Mu4/3 camera which they bandied about at FotoKina, it seems
    more like something which could maybe fit in a pocket with a pancake
    lens of some sort mounted.
     
    dj_nme, Nov 6, 2008
    #19
  20. SMS

    dj_nme Guest

    Re: Panasonic Lumix G1 Kludge Combines all the disadvantages of aP&S with the disadvantages of a D-SLR?

    David J Taylor wrote:
    > dj_nme wrote:
    > []
    >> (1) TTL = Through The Lens, IE: the "taking" or objective lens which
    >> forms the image on the sensor or film inside the camera.
    >> (2) flipping mirror, fixed pellicle mirror, beamsplitter, ETC
    >> (3) EVIL = Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens
    >> (4) DIL = Digital Interchangeable Lens
    >> (5) EVF = Electronic ViewFinder

    >
    > I'm surprised that DEVIL has been coined!
    >
    > DEVIL = Digital Electronic Viewfinder Interchangeable Lens


    I personally believe that DIL is the silliest version, one could easily
    quip that "Only a dill would want a DIL camera".
    That's something I'd never do. ;-)
     
    dj_nme, Nov 6, 2008
    #20
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