P&S vs DSLR - Does this argument make sense?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by aniramca@gmail.com, Jul 26, 2007.

  1. Guest

    I want to buy a DSLR because it is the only type of digital camera
    that has larger size sensor, not because I am looking for more
    flexibility of using (and spent more money on) different types and
    ranges of lenses. As long as it has a reasonable zoom lens, I am
    happy.
    Comments?
     
    , Jul 26, 2007
    #1
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  2. Scott W Guest

    wrote:
    > I want to buy a DSLR because it is the only type of digital camera
    > that has larger size sensor, not because I am looking for more
    > flexibility of using (and spent more money on) different types and
    > ranges of lenses. As long as it has a reasonable zoom lens, I am
    > happy.
    > Comments?


    A lot depends on the zoom range you believe you will need. If you want
    anything close to wide angle and also close to telephoto you will most
    likely need at least two lenses to cover the whole range. Some people
    don't seem to care about the telephoto end and just leave on a lens that
    has a zoom range on the order of 17- 85mm

    But if you are going to get a DSLR a couple of nice prime lenses are
    also nice to have.

    Scott
     
    Scott W, Jul 26, 2007
    #2
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  3. wrote:
    > I want to buy a DSLR because it is the only type of digital camera
    > that has larger size sensor, not because I am looking for more
    > flexibility of using (and spent more money on) different types and
    > ranges of lenses. As long as it has a reasonable zoom lens, I am
    > happy.


    Sounds like you should consider something like a Canon 400D, or other
    entry level DSLR, with a super zoom lens such as a Sigma 18-200mm OS or
    a Tamron 18-250mm. The Sigma gives you optical lens stabilization to
    match many P&S cameras. Another choice would be a Nikon DSLR with their
    18-200mm VR lens. This type of DSLR/lens combination, IMO, beats any
    P&S camera available in a variety of aspects.
     
    Michael Johnson, Jul 26, 2007
    #3
  4. On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 19:05:32 -0700, wrote:

    >I want to buy a DSLR because it is the only type of digital camera
    >that has larger size sensor, not because I am looking for more
    >flexibility of using (and spent more money on) different types and
    >ranges of lenses. As long as it has a reasonable zoom lens, I am
    >happy.
    >Comments?



    Unfortunately, yes, that's the way it is at the moment.

    I went through the same gyrations shopping for my most
    recent P&S. I was ready to spend serious cash, but
    there really weren't any options. The few I found were
    nearly as heavy (or heavier) than an SLR. (Eg.,
    Lumix DLC-L1K @ $1499.)


    rafe b
    www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    Raphael Bustin, Jul 26, 2007
    #4
  5. wrote:
    > I want to buy a DSLR because it is the only type of digital camera
    > that has larger size sensor, not because I am looking for more
    > flexibility of using (and spent more money on) different types and
    > ranges of lenses. As long as it has a reasonable zoom lens, I am
    > happy.
    > Comments?


    You don't /have/ to go DSLR:

    http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscr1/

    and perhaps one of two rangefinder cameras.

    But the Sony may end up as big, heavy and expensive as more versatile DSLR
    with a kit lens. Might work better in a dusty enviroment, though.

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Jul 26, 2007
    #5
  6. Trev Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I want to buy a DSLR because it is the only type of digital camera
    > that has larger size sensor, not because I am looking for more
    > flexibility of using (and spent more money on) different types and
    > ranges of lenses. As long as it has a reasonable zoom lens, I am
    > happy.
    > Comments?
    >

    Yes It can have a bigger sensor. But a High end lens attached can produce
    some cracking A3 prints. So its only of benefit if you can see the
    difference in the finished results
     
    Trev, Jul 26, 2007
    #6
  7. Akiralx Guest

    "Raphael Bustin" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 19:05:32 -0700, wrote:
    >
    >>I want to buy a DSLR because it is the only type of digital camera
    >>that has larger size sensor, not because I am looking for more
    >>flexibility of using (and spent more money on) different types and
    >>ranges of lenses. As long as it has a reasonable zoom lens, I am
    >>happy.
    >>Comments?

    >
    >
    > Unfortunately, yes, that's the way it is at the moment.
    >
    > I went through the same gyrations shopping for my most
    > recent P&S. I was ready to spend serious cash, but
    > there really weren't any options. The few I found were
    > nearly as heavy (or heavier) than an SLR. (Eg.,
    > Lumix DLC-L1K @ $1499.)
    >


    The L1 is a DSLR. The Sony R1 may be a good choice, a bit old now though.
     
    Akiralx, Jul 26, 2007
    #7
  8. Pete D Guest

    "David J Taylor" <-this-part.nor-this-bit.co.uk>
    wrote in message news:ZOXpi.4389$...
    > wrote:
    >> I want to buy a DSLR because it is the only type of digital camera
    >> that has larger size sensor, not because I am looking for more
    >> flexibility of using (and spent more money on) different types and
    >> ranges of lenses. As long as it has a reasonable zoom lens, I am
    >> happy.
    >> Comments?

    >
    > You don't /have/ to go DSLR:
    >
    > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscr1/
    >
    > and perhaps one of two rangefinder cameras.
    >
    > But the Sony may end up as big, heavy and expensive as more versatile DSLR
    > with a kit lens. Might work better in a dusty enviroment, though.
    >
    > David


    Not necessarily better, any lens going in and out has to move air somewhere,
    if your zoomy P&S manages to get some dust into the sensor area it is
    basicly impossible to get out, with a D-SLR it is easy.
     
    Pete D, Jul 26, 2007
    #8
  9. Akiralx <> observed
    >
    >"Raphael Bustin" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Wed, 25 Jul 2007 19:05:32 -0700, wrote:
    >>
    >>>I want to buy a DSLR because it is the only type of digital camera
    >>>that has larger size sensor, not because I am looking for more
    >>>flexibility of using (and spent more money on) different types and
    >>>ranges of lenses. As long as it has a reasonable zoom lens, I am
    >>>happy.
    >>>Comments?

    >>
    >> Unfortunately, yes, that's the way it is at the moment.
    >>
    >> I went through the same gyrations shopping for my most
    >> recent P&S. I was ready to spend serious cash, but
    >> there really weren't any options. The few I found were
    >> nearly as heavy (or heavier) than an SLR. (Eg.,
    >> Lumix DLC-L1K @ $1499.)

    >
    >The L1 is a DSLR. The Sony R1 may be a good choice, a bit old now though.


    I was shopping for a *silent* multipurpose camera earlier this year and
    looked at the Sony R1. Really interesting camera - at the original price
    much too expensive, but it was available at around the £400 price when I
    looked. (It's now back up in the £500+ range so the price I saw may be a
    mistake). But the lens (especially 24mm eqiv) and sensor size made a
    lot of sense, but the max aperture of f4.8 at 120mm worked against it
    for my needs.

    I eventually decided on the Panasonic FZ50 at £299, because I needed a
    longer lens for nature and candid photography and use RAW to rescue the
    image!

    But as a long term M3 user, I really hate the sound an SLR makes - which
    is the quietest SLR?

    Mike

    [The reply-to address is valid for 30 days from this posting]
    --
    Michael J Davis
    <><
    Some newsgroup contributors appear to have confused
    the meaning of "discussion" with "digression".
    <><
     
    Michael J Davis, Jul 26, 2007
    #9
  10. On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 07:11:53 GMT, "David J Taylor"
    <-this-part.nor-this-bit.co.uk> wrote:

    > wrote:
    >> I want to buy a DSLR because it is the only type of digital camera
    >> that has larger size sensor, not because I am looking for more
    >> flexibility of using (and spent more money on) different types and
    >> ranges of lenses. As long as it has a reasonable zoom lens, I am
    >> happy.
    >> Comments?

    >
    >You don't /have/ to go DSLR:
    >
    > http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscr1/
    >
    >and perhaps one of two rangefinder cameras.
    >
    >But the Sony may end up as big, heavy and expensive as more versatile DSLR
    >with a kit lens. Might work better in a dusty enviroment, though.
    >
    >David



    Pretty much. The Sony that's pictured in the link isn't
    exactly sized for a shirt or jacket pocket.

    It's not an unusual form factor nowadays, but it's not
    exactly "compact."

    I still don't see why a 15x23 mm sensor "requires" a
    large, heavy camera body. Back in the day, there
    were slim, lightweight "half-frame" 35 mm cameras.

    You're talking about a "normal" lens of 28 mm, which
    isn't that much of a challenge.


    rafe b
    www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    Raphael Bustin, Jul 26, 2007
    #10
  11. Raphael Bustin wrote:
    > On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 07:11:53 GMT, "David J Taylor"

    []
    >> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscr1/

    []
    > Pretty much. The Sony that's pictured in the link isn't
    > exactly sized for a shirt or jacket pocket.
    >
    > It's not an unusual form factor nowadays, but it's not
    > exactly "compact."
    >
    > I still don't see why a 15x23 mm sensor "requires" a
    > large, heavy camera body. Back in the day, there
    > were slim, lightweight "half-frame" 35 mm cameras.
    >
    > You're talking about a "normal" lens of 28 mm, which
    > isn't that much of a challenge.
    >
    >
    > rafe b



    Rafe,

    "People" expect a zoom lens with auto-focus these days! Batteries and
    electronics may take up more space than a film canister. IIRC, Sigma
    offer a non-zoom camera:

    http://www.dpreview.com/news/0703/07030807sigmadp1.asp

    but I don't know if you can actually buy it, yet. And I wouldn't call it
    compact, either!

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Jul 26, 2007
    #11
  12. nospam Guest

    In article <g31qi.4613$>, David J
    Taylor <-this-part.nor-this-bit.co.uk>
    wrote:

    > "People" expect a zoom lens with auto-focus these days! Batteries and
    > electronics may take up more space than a film canister. IIRC, Sigma
    > offer a non-zoom camera:
    >
    > http://www.dpreview.com/news/0703/07030807sigmadp1.asp


    actually, it has digital zoom, which if you believe the hype from the
    sigma fans, is as good as optical zoom because of its amazing sensor.

    not that it matters because...

    > but I don't know if you can actually buy it, yet. And I wouldn't call it
    > compact, either!


    ....you can't buy it at all - the camera is stillborn. b&h lists it as
    discontinued and that's only via a direct link. search for it and
    *nobody* lists it anymore.

    <http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=WishList.jsp&A=detail
    s&Q=&sku=472377&is=REG>
     
    nospam, Jul 26, 2007
    #12
  13. In rec.photo.digital wrote:
    > I want to buy a DSLR because it is the only type of digital camera
    > that has larger size sensor, not because I am looking for more
    > flexibility of using (and spent more money on) different types and
    > ranges of lenses. As long as it has a reasonable zoom lens, I am
    > happy.


    Why do you want a bigger sensor? (playing Devil's advocate here)

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse

    We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
    machinations of the wicked.
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Jul 26, 2007
    #13
  14. Guest

    On Jul 26, 11:34 am, "Thomas T. Veldhouse" <> wrote:
    > In rec.photo.digital wrote:
    > > I want to buy a DSLR because it is the only type of digital camera
    > > that has larger size sensor, not because I am looking for more
    > > flexibility of using (and spent more money on) different types and
    > > ranges of lenses. As long as it has a reasonable zoom lens, I am
    > > happy.

    >
    > Why do you want a bigger sensor? (playing Devil's advocate here)
    >
    > --
    > Thomas T. Veldhouse
    >
    > We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
    > machinations of the wicked.


    It is a good question! Then, perhaps the same question may be asked
    to those who bought medium format cameras, instead of using the
    regular 35mm.

    Perhaps in the digital age, you may have a point there. as an analog -
    124MB SD card and 4GB SD card both have the same physical size, so we
    do not need to make it bigger to fit in more data?. Does a larger
    sensor means more space to store more pixels, and hence creating
    better definition of an image? Perhaps we can hear from the technical
    readers here.
     
    , Jul 26, 2007
    #14
  15. Trev Guest

    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Jul 26, 11:34 am, "Thomas T. Veldhouse" <> wrote:
    >> In rec.photo.digital wrote:
    >> > I want to buy a DSLR because it is the only type of digital camera
    >> > that has larger size sensor, not because I am looking for more
    >> > flexibility of using (and spent more money on) different types and
    >> > ranges of lenses. As long as it has a reasonable zoom lens, I am
    >> > happy.

    >>
    >> Why do you want a bigger sensor? (playing Devil's advocate here)
    >>
    >> --
    >> Thomas T. Veldhouse
    >>
    >> We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from
    >> the
    >> machinations of the wicked.

    >
    > It is a good question! Then, perhaps the same question may be asked
    > to those who bought medium format cameras, instead of using the
    > regular 35mm.
    >
    > Perhaps in the digital age, you may have a point there. as an analog -
    > 124MB SD card and 4GB SD card both have the same physical size, so we
    > do not need to make it bigger to fit in more data?. Does a larger
    > sensor means more space to store more pixels, and hence creating
    > better definition of an image? Perhaps we can hear from the technical
    > readers here.
    >

    A larger sensor means Bigger Pixels or it could mean more smaller Pixels The
    OP could get a Hasslblad or Mamiya 6 x 7 with a digital back or Sinar p.
    What is not clear to the general user is that the physical size of the
    sensor has a lot to do with the quality and not just the MP count. Of course
    the dont brag about how tiny it is just how many pixels in the marketing
    blurb.
     
    Trev, Jul 26, 2007
    #15
  16. Prometheus Guest

    In article <g31qi.4613$>, David J
    Taylor <-this-part.nor-this-bit.co.uk> writes
    >Raphael Bustin wrote:
    >> On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 07:11:53 GMT, "David J Taylor"

    >[]
    >>> http://www.dpreview.com/reviews/sonydscr1/

    >[]
    >> Pretty much. The Sony that's pictured in the link isn't
    >> exactly sized for a shirt or jacket pocket.
    >>
    >> It's not an unusual form factor nowadays, but it's not
    >> exactly "compact."
    >>
    >> I still don't see why a 15x23 mm sensor "requires" a
    >> large, heavy camera body. Back in the day, there
    >> were slim, lightweight "half-frame" 35 mm cameras.
    >>
    >> You're talking about a "normal" lens of 28 mm, which
    >> isn't that much of a challenge.
    >>
    >>
    >> rafe b

    >
    >
    >Rafe,
    >
    >"People" expect a zoom lens with auto-focus these days! Batteries and
    >electronics may take up more space than a film canister. IIRC, Sigma
    >offer a non-zoom camera:
    >
    > http://www.dpreview.com/news/0703/07030807sigmadp1.asp
    >
    >but I don't know if you can actually buy it, yet. And I wouldn't call it
    >compact, either!


    It lacks an optical viewfinder, the optional clip-on viewfinder prevents
    using an external flash. I also suspect that with purchasers wanting
    more and more MP there will be little enthusiasm for 5MP fixed focal
    length camera; a lack of enthusiasm that could make the price required
    to recoup the development cost prohibitive. Perhaps this is why it seems
    to be nothing more than a concept product.

    --
    Ian G8ILZ
    There are always two people in every picture: the photographer and the viewer.
    ~Ansel Adams
     
    Prometheus, Jul 26, 2007
    #16
  17. Clive Guest

    wrote:
    > On Jul 26, 11:34 am, "Thomas T. Veldhouse" <> wrote:
    >
    >> In rec.photo.digital wrote:
    >>
    >>> I want to buy a DSLR because it is the only type of digital camera
    >>> that has larger size sensor, not because I am looking for more
    >>> flexibility of using (and spent more money on) different types and
    >>> ranges of lenses. As long as it has a reasonable zoom lens, I am
    >>> happy.
    >>>

    >> Why do you want a bigger sensor? (playing Devil's advocate here)
    >>
    >> --
    >> Thomas T. Veldhouse
    >>
    >> We have more to fear from the bungling of the incompetent than from the
    >> machinations of the wicked.
    >>

    >
    > It is a good question! Then, perhaps the same question may be asked
    > to those who bought medium format cameras, instead of using the
    > regular 35mm.
    >
    > Perhaps in the digital age, you may have a point there. as an analog -
    > 124MB SD card and 4GB SD card both have the same physical size, so we
    > do not need to make it bigger to fit in more data?. Does a larger
    > sensor means more space to store more pixels, and hence creating
    > better definition of an image? Perhaps we can hear from the technical
    > readers here.
    >
    >

    I have a Canon S3 IS and a Pentax K100D - both 6mp cameras. Some time
    ago I did some comparison shots (of the same subject). Very little to
    choose at the same exposure when I printed A4, but when I printed the
    same item at A3 - the K100D was visibly better.

    Same number of pixels, but bigger on the K100D - sensor size does make a
    difference.

    Clive
     
    Clive, Jul 26, 2007
    #17
  18. DHB Guest

    On Thu, 26 Jul 2007 20:12:04 GMT, Clive <> wrote:

    >I have a Canon S3 IS and a Pentax K100D - both 6mp cameras. Some time
    >ago I did some comparison shots (of the same subject). Very little to
    >choose at the same exposure when I printed A4, but when I printed the
    >same item at A3 - the K100D was visibly better.
    >
    >Same number of pixels, but bigger on the K100D - sensor size does make a
    >difference.
    >
    >Clive


    Clive,
    The age old question "Does size matter?" In terms of
    photographic sensors, it's not so much the physical size as it is "how
    many photos can it record per unit of time!"

    Some sensors with the same physical size have larger micro
    lenses made possible by a more effective shape, layout or circuit
    trace design or even a more efficient filter over them.

    So, does size matter? Yes & no. It's also important to take
    into consideration, things like "read noise" where in most newer
    sensors has decreased, helping to make reasonable results possible
    from very small sensors.

    Just my 2 cents but I think the "average consumer" is willing
    to tolerate a fairly high amount of noise or noise reduction artifacts
    if it provides them with the following:

    <1> Proper focus.
    <2> Good color reproduction.
    <3> Pocket size (for most).
    <4> Results that look good in 5x7" & a rare 8x10" print.
    <5> A large LCD display to frame & view (show others) pictures on.
    <6> Reasonable price, (affordable).
    <7> A reasonable zoom range of 3-4X or (more for some).
    <8> More MP is usually believed to be better!

    In spite of it's faults, I do like my Fuji F11 for it's low
    light performance thanks "mainly" to it's larger than average CCD size
    of (1/1.7" 6.3MP) for a pocket size P&S.

    Respectfully, DHB


    "To announce that there must be no criticism of the President,
    or that we are to stand by the President, right or wrong,
    is not only unpatriotic and servile, but is morally treasonable
    to the American public."--Theodore Roosevelt, May 7, 1918
     
    DHB, Jul 27, 2007
    #18
  19. Noons Guest

    On Jul 27, 3:18 am, wrote:


    > Perhaps in the digital age, you may have a point there. as an analog -
    > 124MB SD card and 4GB SD card both have the same physical size, so we
    > do not need to make it bigger to fit in more data?. Does a larger
    > sensor means more space to store more pixels, and hence creating
    > better definition of an image? Perhaps we can hear from the technical
    > readers here.



    all else being equal - and that is an important caveat - a larger
    sensor will provide larger light receptors - also called sensels.
    These in turn can receive more photons, which translates
    into better sensitivity and less noise in the resulting image.

    That is why compact digital cameras with small sensors
    and therefore smaller sensels absolutely suck in image quality
    at anything above 400ISO, while dslrs with their larger sensors
    (larger sensels) can produce quality images all the way up to
    1600ISO.

    Recall that while digital miniaturization has resulted
    in smaller electronic devices, a given colour's photons
    and wavelength remain at exactly the same size and
    that will not change.

    While it is theoretically possible to produce sensors with
    pixels smaller than the light's wavelength, it will serve
    no purpose whatsoever as the sensors will be unable to
    capture any!
     
    Noons, Jul 27, 2007
    #19
  20. wrote:
    > On Jul 26, 11:34 am, "Thomas T. Veldhouse" <> wrote:
    >> Why do you want a bigger sensor? (playing Devil's advocate here)


    > It is a good question! Then, perhaps the same question may be asked
    > to those who bought medium format cameras, instead of using the
    > regular 35mm.


    Some articles covering this issue:

    Digital Cameras: Does Pixel Size Matter?
    Factors in Choosing a Digital Camera
    http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter

    Digital Cameras: Does Pixel Size Matter?
    Part 2: Example Images using Different Pixel Sizes
    http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/does.pixel.size.matter2

    http://www.clarkvision.com/imagedetail/digital.sensor.performance.summary

    Roger
     
    Roger N. Clark (change username to rnclark), Jul 27, 2007
    #20
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