Out of the frying pan...

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Mar 21, 2009.

  1. After over two and a half years running Gentoo on my main workstation, I've
    decided to give Debian a try.

    There's never a dull moment with Gentoo. Everything's built from source on-
    demand, but its dependency management seems to have a few holes in it
    (whether by accident or design, I'm not sure). For example if package A
    depends on package B, and you upgrade to a newer version of B, it will need
    to rebuild A against the new B, but it doesn't figure this out automatically,
    you have to do a separate step. Thus, every time you upgrade something,
    you've almost certainly broken something else, though you may not discover
    it immediately.

    Anyway, about a month ago I decided to install KDE 4.2, which had finally
    made it into the official repositories. It took--I kid you not--most of a
    weekend to compile it all. I hit one or two roadblocks along the way. In one
    case, a newer package was failing to build against an older version of
    another package that should have been upgraded first, but wasn't (missing
    dependency?). So I manually upgraded the other package, then resumed the
    main KDE install, and it chugged along.

    At another point, the C compiler got stuck, chewing over 90% of my CPU,
    seemingly without doing anything at all. I killed it after about 20 minutes,
    did a hunt around, and discovered there was a newer version of GCC
    available. So I upgraded that, then resumed the KDE build.

    Is it a good idea to switch compiler versions in the middle of building
    something that large and complex? Come to think of it....

    Anyway, the whole thing finally built. And for the most part, it worked,
    giving me loads of lovely 3D and other fun effects with my NVidia card. Just
    one or two minor niggles: for instance, every time I opened a message
    composition window in Thunderbird, the clock display in my taskbar would
    start flashing. And while it was flashing, clicking on it to bring up the
    calendar display would show a corrupted window. Other Thunderbird windows
    would be fine--only the one that let you create a message had this effect.

    And if I left it in that state, and switched to the desktop where I keep my
    Konsole terminal sessions, I'd get weird highlighting corruption happening
    there.

    Anyway, about a week ago, I saw that an update to KDE 4.2.1 was available in
    the Gentoo repositories. So last night I finally got around to doing the
    update. Hit one dependency issue like before, which I was able to work
    around as before. Went to bed.

    Woke up this morning, and whaddaya know--it had finished! Instead of
    consuming the whole weekend, it had just taken one night.

    Checked the Thunderbird flashing-clock problem--still there. Sigh. What was
    worse, Konsole was misbehaving even worse than before, with random holes
    appearing in the window backgrounds, even without Thunderbird.

    I had said to myself, during the throes of the initial KDE 4.2 upgrade, that
    if I couldn't get this to work, I was going to give Debian a try. So this
    time I decided--what the hell, let's do it. I had purposely left a 15GB
    partition spare when I set up the hard drive, specifically so I could try a
    new OS in future without having to wipe the existing installation. So I went
    ahead and put on Debian 5.0.

    This was my fourth Debian install. Installing Gentoo is like assembling a
    kitset car: you follow the instructions, and you see it taking shape before
    your eyes. Very hands-on. Debian is more like the conventional read the
    question, answer it, go on to the next screen, let it do its stuff kind of
    thing. Ho-hum.

    Then I discovered that KDE 4.2 is not in the current "stable" Debian
    release, or even in "testing" or "unstable": it is in fact classified as
    "experimental", so the package system will (deliberately) not install it
    without some additional encouragement.

    Anyway, did all that. Logged in, and there's some of the usual KDE 4.2 stuff,
    looking fine. Instead of "Firefox" and "Thunderbird", they're called
    "Iceweasel" and "Icedove" (clash of trademark policies with Mozilla). But
    that's no biggie. Start up Iceweasel, and it picks up my previous Firefox
    bookmarks and browsing history without missing a beat. Start Icedove--hmm,
    where have my Thunderbird e-mail accounts gone? That's OK, I'll sort it out
    later. Open a message-composition window, watch the clock ...

    It doesn't flash! How's Konsole behaving? Looks OK so far.

    So I have my KDE 4.2 back again, and if anything, it looks better than
    before.

    Just one thing: Debian "stable" may be fine for servers, but it's a sure
    recipe for dull and boring on the desktop. Not my idea of fun. I thought I'd
    try "testing" instead, where hopefully new goodies will be coming in all the
    time, the way they do with Gentoo. So I went into my /etc/apt/sources.list,
    and changed all instances of "lenny" to "sid".

    Then I discovered that "testing" is in fact currently called "squeeze", that
    "sid" is really "unstable", the next higher grade of chaos beyond "testing",
    where anything is liable to break at any time!

    Oh shit. Oh well...
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Mar 21, 2009
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Craig Sutton Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:gq24f6$esm$...
    > After over two and a half years running Gentoo on my main workstation,
    > I've
    > decided to give Debian a try.
    >


    >
    > Then I discovered that "testing" is in fact currently called "squeeze",
    > that
    > "sid" is really "unstable", the next higher grade of chaos beyond
    > "testing",
    > where anything is liable to break at any time!
    >
    > Oh shit. Oh well...
    >


    Have you considered switching to Windows XP?
     
    Craig Sutton, Mar 21, 2009
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. On Sat, 21 Mar 2009 20:45:59 +1300, Craig Sutton <>
    wrote in <news:gq25t0$fn8$>:

    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    > news:gq24f6$esm$...
    >> After over two and a half years running Gentoo on my main workstation,
    >> I've
    >> decided to give Debian a try.
    >>

    >
    >>
    >> Then I discovered that "testing" is in fact currently called "squeeze",
    >> that
    >> "sid" is really "unstable", the next higher grade of chaos beyond
    >> "testing",
    >> where anything is liable to break at any time!
    >>
    >> Oh shit. Oh well...
    >>

    >
    > Have you considered switching to Windows XP?


    [Dives behind sofa, covers ears]

    --
    - Nicolaas
     
    Nicolaas Hawkins, Mar 21, 2009
    #3
  4. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    oneofus Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > After over two and a half years running Gentoo on my main workstation, I've
    > decided to give Debian a try.
    >
    > There's never a dull moment with Gentoo. Everything's built from source on-
    > demand, but its dependency management seems to have a few holes in it
    > (whether by accident or design, I'm not sure). For example if package A
    > depends on package B, and you upgrade to a newer version of B, it will need
    > to rebuild A against the new B, but it doesn't figure this out automatically,
    > you have to do a separate step. Thus, every time you upgrade something,
    > you've almost certainly broken something else, though you may not discover
    > it immediately.
    >
    > Anyway, about a month ago I decided to install KDE 4.2, which had finally
    > made it into the official repositories. It took--I kid you not--most of a
    > weekend to compile it all. I hit one or two roadblocks along the way. In one
    > case, a newer package was failing to build against an older version of
    > another package that should have been upgraded first, but wasn't (missing
    > dependency?). So I manually upgraded the other package, then resumed the
    > main KDE install, and it chugged along.
    >
    > At another point, the C compiler got stuck, chewing over 90% of my CPU,
    > seemingly without doing anything at all. I killed it after about 20 minutes,
    > did a hunt around, and discovered there was a newer version of GCC
    > available. So I upgraded that, then resumed the KDE build.
    >
    > Is it a good idea to switch compiler versions in the middle of building
    > something that large and complex? Come to think of it....
    >
    > Anyway, the whole thing finally built. And for the most part, it worked,
    > giving me loads of lovely 3D and other fun effects with my NVidia card. Just
    > one or two minor niggles: for instance, every time I opened a message
    > composition window in Thunderbird, the clock display in my taskbar would
    > start flashing. And while it was flashing, clicking on it to bring up the
    > calendar display would show a corrupted window. Other Thunderbird windows
    > would be fine--only the one that let you create a message had this effect.
    >
    > And if I left it in that state, and switched to the desktop where I keep my
    > Konsole terminal sessions, I'd get weird highlighting corruption happening
    > there.
    >
    > Anyway, about a week ago, I saw that an update to KDE 4.2.1 was available in
    > the Gentoo repositories. So last night I finally got around to doing the
    > update. Hit one dependency issue like before, which I was able to work
    > around as before. Went to bed.
    >
    > Woke up this morning, and whaddaya know--it had finished! Instead of
    > consuming the whole weekend, it had just taken one night.
    >
    > Checked the Thunderbird flashing-clock problem--still there. Sigh. What was
    > worse, Konsole was misbehaving even worse than before, with random holes
    > appearing in the window backgrounds, even without Thunderbird.
    >
    > I had said to myself, during the throes of the initial KDE 4.2 upgrade, that
    > if I couldn't get this to work, I was going to give Debian a try. So this
    > time I decided--what the hell, let's do it. I had purposely left a 15GB
    > partition spare when I set up the hard drive, specifically so I could try a
    > new OS in future without having to wipe the existing installation. So I went
    > ahead and put on Debian 5.0.
    >
    > This was my fourth Debian install. Installing Gentoo is like assembling a
    > kitset car: you follow the instructions, and you see it taking shape before
    > your eyes. Very hands-on. Debian is more like the conventional read the
    > question, answer it, go on to the next screen, let it do its stuff kind of
    > thing. Ho-hum.
    >
    > Then I discovered that KDE 4.2 is not in the current "stable" Debian
    > release, or even in "testing" or "unstable": it is in fact classified as
    > "experimental", so the package system will (deliberately) not install it
    > without some additional encouragement.
    >
    > Anyway, did all that. Logged in, and there's some of the usual KDE 4.2 stuff,
    > looking fine. Instead of "Firefox" and "Thunderbird", they're called
    > "Iceweasel" and "Icedove" (clash of trademark policies with Mozilla). But
    > that's no biggie. Start up Iceweasel, and it picks up my previous Firefox
    > bookmarks and browsing history without missing a beat. Start Icedove--hmm,
    > where have my Thunderbird e-mail accounts gone? That's OK, I'll sort it out
    > later. Open a message-composition window, watch the clock ...
    >
    > It doesn't flash! How's Konsole behaving? Looks OK so far.
    >
    > So I have my KDE 4.2 back again, and if anything, it looks better than
    > before.
    >
    > Just one thing: Debian "stable" may be fine for servers, but it's a sure
    > recipe for dull and boring on the desktop. Not my idea of fun. I thought I'd
    > try "testing" instead, where hopefully new goodies will be coming in all the
    > time, the way they do with Gentoo. So I went into my /etc/apt/sources.list,
    > and changed all instances of "lenny" to "sid".
    >
    > Then I discovered that "testing" is in fact currently called "squeeze", that
    > "sid" is really "unstable", the next higher grade of chaos beyond "testing",
    > where anything is liable to break at any time!
    >
    > Oh shit. Oh well...
    >


    There is a procedure that you can use with APT in your sources.list
    called APT pinning.


    http://www.besy.co.uk/debian/howto_...u_can_install_specific_packages_from_unstable

    http://forum.kde.org/how-install-kde-on-debian-lenny-testing-t-30597.html

    And it is possible to downgrade back to testing using the pinning mechanism.

    I've found that running unstable is quite stable in practice, but the
    upgrade traffic is quite substantial each time you run apt.
    Testing with some packages from unstable results in much less traffic
    for an identical result.
     
    oneofus, Mar 21, 2009
    #4
  5. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Enkidu Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > After over two and a half years running Gentoo on my main
    > workstation, I've decided to give Debian a try.
    >
    > There's never a dull moment with Gentoo. Everything's built from
    > source on- demand, but its dependency management seems to have a few
    > holes in it (whether by accident or design, I'm not sure). For
    > example if package A depends on package B, and you upgrade to a newer
    > version of B, it will need to rebuild A against the new B, but it
    > doesn't figure this out automatically, you have to do a separate
    > step. Thus, every time you upgrade something, you've almost certainly
    > broken something else, though you may not discover it immediately.
    >
    > Anyway, about a month ago I decided to install KDE 4.2, which had
    > finally made it into the official repositories. It took--I kid you
    > not--most of a weekend to compile it all. I hit one or two roadblocks
    > along the way. In one case, a newer package was failing to build
    > against an older version of another package that should have been
    > upgraded first, but wasn't (missing dependency?). So I manually
    > upgraded the other package, then resumed the main KDE install, and it
    > chugged along.
    >
    > At another point, the C compiler got stuck, chewing over 90% of my
    > CPU, seemingly without doing anything at all. I killed it after about
    > 20 minutes, did a hunt around, and discovered there was a newer
    > version of GCC available. So I upgraded that, then resumed the KDE
    > build.
    >
    > Is it a good idea to switch compiler versions in the middle of
    > building something that large and complex? Come to think of it....
    >
    > Anyway, the whole thing finally built. And for the most part, it
    > worked, giving me loads of lovely 3D and other fun effects with my
    > NVidia card. Just one or two minor niggles: for instance, every time
    > I opened a message composition window in Thunderbird, the clock
    > display in my taskbar would start flashing. And while it was
    > flashing, clicking on it to bring up the calendar display would show
    > a corrupted window. Other Thunderbird windows would be fine--only the
    > one that let you create a message had this effect.
    >
    > And if I left it in that state, and switched to the desktop where I
    > keep my Konsole terminal sessions, I'd get weird highlighting
    > corruption happening there.
    >
    > Anyway, about a week ago, I saw that an update to KDE 4.2.1 was
    > available in the Gentoo repositories. So last night I finally got
    > around to doing the update. Hit one dependency issue like before,
    > which I was able to work around as before. Went to bed.
    >
    > Woke up this morning, and whaddaya know--it had finished! Instead of
    > consuming the whole weekend, it had just taken one night.
    >
    > Checked the Thunderbird flashing-clock problem--still there. Sigh.
    > What was worse, Konsole was misbehaving even worse than before, with
    > random holes appearing in the window backgrounds, even without
    > Thunderbird.
    >
    > I had said to myself, during the throes of the initial KDE 4.2
    > upgrade, that if I couldn't get this to work, I was going to give
    > Debian a try. So this time I decided--what the hell, let's do it. I
    > had purposely left a 15GB partition spare when I set up the hard
    > drive, specifically so I could try a new OS in future without having
    > to wipe the existing installation. So I went ahead and put on Debian
    > 5.0.
    >
    > This was my fourth Debian install. Installing Gentoo is like
    > assembling a kitset car: you follow the instructions, and you see it
    > taking shape before your eyes. Very hands-on. Debian is more like the
    > conventional read the question, answer it, go on to the next screen,
    > let it do its stuff kind of thing. Ho-hum.
    >
    > Then I discovered that KDE 4.2 is not in the current "stable" Debian
    > release, or even in "testing" or "unstable": it is in fact
    > classified as "experimental", so the package system will
    > (deliberately) not install it without some additional encouragement.
    >
    > Anyway, did all that. Logged in, and there's some of the usual KDE
    > 4.2 stuff, looking fine. Instead of "Firefox" and "Thunderbird",
    > they're called "Iceweasel" and "Icedove" (clash of trademark policies
    > with Mozilla). But that's no biggie. Start up Iceweasel, and it picks
    > up my previous Firefox bookmarks and browsing history without missing
    > a beat. Start Icedove--hmm, where have my Thunderbird e-mail accounts
    > gone? That's OK, I'll sort it out later. Open a message-composition
    > window, watch the clock ...
    >
    > It doesn't flash! How's Konsole behaving? Looks OK so far.
    >
    > So I have my KDE 4.2 back again, and if anything, it looks better
    > than before.
    >
    > Just one thing: Debian "stable" may be fine for servers, but it's a
    > sure recipe for dull and boring on the desktop. Not my idea of fun. I
    > thought I'd try "testing" instead, where hopefully new goodies will
    > be coming in all the time, the way they do with Gentoo. So I went
    > into my /etc/apt/sources.list, and changed all instances of "lenny"
    > to "sid".
    >
    > Then I discovered that "testing" is in fact currently called
    > "squeeze", that "sid" is really "unstable", the next higher grade of
    > chaos beyond "testing", where anything is liable to break at any
    > time!
    >
    > Oh shit. Oh well...
    >

    sid is always 'unstable' though I've been running testing with some
    unstable packages for years. 'squeeze' or 'testing' should both work as
    will 'sid' and 'unstable'.

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    The Internet is interesting in that although the nicknames may change,
    the same old personalities show through.
     
    Enkidu, Mar 21, 2009
    #5
  6. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Enkidu Guest

    Craig Sutton wrote:
    >
    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    > message news:gq24f6$esm$...
    >> After over two and a half years running Gentoo on my main
    >> workstation, I've decided to give Debian a try.
    >>

    >
    >>
    >> Then I discovered that "testing" is in fact currently called
    >> "squeeze", that "sid" is really "unstable", the next higher grade
    >> of chaos beyond "testing", where anything is liable to break at any
    >> time!
    >>
    >> Oh shit. Oh well...
    >>

    >
    > Have you considered switching to Windows XP?
    >

    He's still got to work his way thorough Ubuntu first.

    Cheers,

    Cliff

    --

    The Internet is interesting in that although the nicknames may change,
    the same old personalities show through.
     
    Enkidu, Mar 21, 2009
    #6
  7. By the way, people, when following up a long posting, learn to edit, OK?
    There's no need to quote the whole thing, everybody's quite capable of
    reading the original posting for themselves.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Mar 21, 2009
    #7
  8. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    impossible Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:gq3s2q$fbn$...

    >>"Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    >>news:gq24f6$esm$...


    >> After over two and a half years running Gentoo on my main workstation,
    >> I've
    >> decided to give Debian a try.
    >>
    >> There's never a dull moment with Gentoo. Everything's built from source
    >> on-
    >> demand, but its dependency management seems to have a few holes in it
    >> (whether by accident or design, I'm not sure). For example if package A
    >> depends on package B, and you upgrade to a newer version of B, it will
    >> need
    >> to rebuild A against the new B, but it doesn't figure this out
    >> automatically,
    >> you have to do a separate step. Thus, every time you upgrade something,
    >> you've almost certainly broken something else, though you may not
    >> discover
    >> it immediately.
    >>
    >> Anyway, about a month ago I decided to install KDE 4.2, which had finally
    >> made it into the official repositories. It took--I kid you not--most of a
    >> weekend to compile it all. I hit one or two roadblocks along the way. In
    >> one
    >> case, a newer package was failing to build against an older version of
    >> another package that should have been upgraded first, but wasn't (missing
    >> dependency?). So I manually upgraded the other package, then resumed the
    >> main KDE install, and it chugged along.
    >>
    >> At another point, the C compiler got stuck, chewing over 90% of my CPU,
    >> seemingly without doing anything at all. I killed it after about 20
    >> minutes,
    >> did a hunt around, and discovered there was a newer version of GCC
    >> available. So I upgraded that, then resumed the KDE build.
    >>
    >> Is it a good idea to switch compiler versions in the middle of building
    >> something that large and complex? Come to think of it....
    >>
    >> Anyway, the whole thing finally built. And for the most part, it worked,
    >> giving me loads of lovely 3D and other fun effects with my NVidia card.
    >> Just
    >> one or two minor niggles: for instance, every time I opened a message
    >> composition window in Thunderbird, the clock display in my taskbar would
    >> start flashing. And while it was flashing, clicking on it to bring up the
    >> calendar display would show a corrupted window. Other Thunderbird windows
    >> would be fine--only the one that let you create a message had this
    >> effect.
    >>
    >> And if I left it in that state, and switched to the desktop where I keep
    >> my
    >> Konsole terminal sessions, I'd get weird highlighting corruption
    >> happening
    >> there.
    >>
    >> Anyway, about a week ago, I saw that an update to KDE 4.2.1 was available
    >> in
    >> the Gentoo repositories. So last night I finally got around to doing the
    >> update. Hit one dependency issue like before, which I was able to work
    >> around as before. Went to bed.
    >>
    >> Woke up this morning, and whaddaya know--it had finished! Instead of
    >> consuming the whole weekend, it had just taken one night.
    >>
    >> Checked the Thunderbird flashing-clock problem--still there. Sigh. What
    >> was
    >> worse, Konsole was misbehaving even worse than before, with random holes
    >> appearing in the window backgrounds, even without Thunderbird.
    >>
    >> I had said to myself, during the throes of the initial KDE 4.2 upgrade,
    >> that
    >> if I couldn't get this to work, I was going to give Debian a try. So this
    >> time I decided--what the hell, let's do it. I had purposely left a 15GB
    >> partition spare when I set up the hard drive, specifically so I could try
    >> a
    >> new OS in future without having to wipe the existing installation. So I
    >> went
    >> ahead and put on Debian 5.0.
    >>
    >> This was my fourth Debian install. Installing Gentoo is like assembling a
    >> kitset car: you follow the instructions, and you see it taking shape
    >> before
    >> your eyes. Very hands-on. Debian is more like the conventional read the
    >> question, answer it, go on to the next screen, let it do its stuff kind
    >> of
    >> thing. Ho-hum.
    >>
    >> Then I discovered that KDE 4.2 is not in the current "stable" Debian
    >> release, or even in "testing" or "unstable": it is in fact classified as
    >> "experimental", so the package system will (deliberately) not install it
    >> without some additional encouragement.
    >>
    >> Anyway, did all that. Logged in, and there's some of the usual KDE 4.2
    >> stuff,
    >> looking fine. Instead of "Firefox" and "Thunderbird", they're called
    >> "Iceweasel" and "Icedove" (clash of trademark policies with Mozilla). But
    >> that's no biggie. Start up Iceweasel, and it picks up my previous Firefox
    >> bookmarks and browsing history without missing a beat. Start
    >> Icedove--hmm,
    >> where have my Thunderbird e-mail accounts gone? That's OK, I'll sort it
    >> out
    >> later. Open a message-composition window, watch the clock ...
    >>
    >> It doesn't flash! How's Konsole behaving? Looks OK so far.
    >>
    >> So I have my KDE 4.2 back again, and if anything, it looks better than
    >> before.
    >>
    >> Just one thing: Debian "stable" may be fine for servers, but it's a sure
    >> recipe for dull and boring on the desktop. Not my idea of fun. I thought
    >> I'd
    >> try "testing" instead, where hopefully new goodies will be coming in all
    >> the
    >> time, the way they do with Gentoo. So I went into my
    >> /etc/apt/sources.list,
    >> and changed all instances of "lenny" to "sid".
    >>
    >> Then I discovered that "testing" is in fact currently called "squeeze",
    >> that
    >> "sid" is really "unstable", the next higher grade of chaos beyond
    >> "testing",
    >> where anything is liable to break at any time!
    >>
    >> Oh shit. Oh well...
    >>


    > OK?


    Ok, what?
     
    impossible, Mar 21, 2009
    #8
  9. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    oneofus Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > By the way, people, when following up a long posting, learn to edit, OK?
    > There's no need to quote the whole thing, everybody's quite capable of
    > reading the original posting for themselves.
    >

    Don't post quite such an epic then, no-one really cares that much.
     
    oneofus, Mar 22, 2009
    #9
  10. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    AD. Guest

    On Mar 21, 8:20 pm, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <l...@geek-
    central.gen.new_zealand> wrote:
    > Then I discovered that "testing" is in fact currently called "squeeze", that
    > "sid" is really "unstable", the next higher grade of chaos beyond "testing",
    > where anything is liable to break at any time!


    Well you did use experimental for KDE and have used Gentoo - Sid
    shouldn't bother you that much. Unstable refers to the rate of package
    version change more than anything else.

    Back when I used Debian Sid as a desktop (from memory around the time
    woody and sarge were stable), I knew far less than I do now and it
    went through some big binary compatibility changes eg gcc 2.95 to 3.x
    and a few libc, KDE and Firebird (browser) transitions. Any major
    breakage was rare and usually fixed on the next update.

    Testing will still get occasional package breakages. While they will
    happen less often, they will also take longer to fix because of the
    delay between unstable and testing (it was 10 days with no new major
    bugs reported). Although don't quote me on that - the whole process
    might be a bit different these days.

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Mar 22, 2009
    #10
  11. In message <ac44aa81-6da0-41e3-8cd5-
    >, AD. wrote:

    > Well you did use experimental for KDE and have used Gentoo - Sid
    > shouldn't bother you that much. Unstable refers to the rate of package
    > version change more than anything else.


    OK, thanks for that.

    Currently I'm trying to build FFmpeg. There seems to be no package for lame,
    so I'm building that from source, too. But it would like GTK. But when I try
    to install the -dev package for that, I get:

    libgtk2.0-dev: Depends: libgtk2.0-0 (= 2.14.7-4+b1) but 2.16.0-1 is to
    be installed

    I assume this is a temporary breakage--I may look at it again tomorrow...
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Mar 22, 2009
    #11
  12. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Gib Bogle Guest

    You've really asked for it now.
     
    Gib Bogle, Mar 22, 2009
    #12
  13. In message <gq52ac$5m9$>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    > But when I try to install the -dev package for that, I get:
    >
    > libgtk2.0-dev: Depends: libgtk2.0-0 (= 2.14.7-4+b1) but 2.16.0-1 is to
    > be installed
    >
    > I assume this is a temporary breakage--I may look at it again tomorrow...


    It's OK, I figured out that 1) I could get the right packages from
    "experimental", and 2) LAME wants GTK1.2, which is available from stable
    anyway <http://packages.debian.org/lenny/libgtk1.2-dev>.

    Don't you just love Debian's package search. :)
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Mar 22, 2009
    #13
  14. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    impossible Guest

    Re: Talking to himself alert -- Larry D'Loser

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:gq6fbf$le$...
    > In message <gq52ac$5m9$>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> But when I try to install the -dev package for that, I get:
    >>
    >> libgtk2.0-dev: Depends: libgtk2.0-0 (= 2.14.7-4+b1) but 2.16.0-1 is
    >> to
    >> be installed
    >>
    >> I assume this is a temporary breakage--I may look at it again tomorrow...

    >
    > It's OK, I figured out that 1) I could get the right packages from
    > "experimental", and 2) LAME wants GTK1.2, which is available from stable
    > anyway <http://packages.debian.org/lenny/libgtk1.2-dev>.
    >
    > Don't you just love Debian's package search. :)
    >


    "Oh, Larry, don't you just love it?

    "Yes, Larry, I do."

    "And my, you're so smart for pointing that out, Larry".

    "I know, Larrry, I know -- we're just incredible, aren't we?"
     
    impossible, Mar 23, 2009
    #14
  15. In message <gq630i$p5e$>, Gib Bogle wrote:

    >In message <gq24f6$esm$>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> Then I discovered that "testing" is in fact currently called "squeeze",
    >> that "sid" is really "unstable", the next higher grade of chaos beyond
    >> "testing", where anything is liable to break at any time!
    >>
    >> Oh shit. Oh well...

    >
    > You've really asked for it now.


    What, you mean I've given the pro-Microsoft trolls an excuse to attack?

    Hasn't really happened, has it? I think they've realized that there isn't
    really a long-term future in being a Microsoft booster any more. :)
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Mar 23, 2009
    #15
  16. On Mon, 23 Mar 2009 20:47:52 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    <_zealand> wrote in
    <news:gq7eqg$j4m$>:

    > In message <gq630i$p5e$>, Gib Bogle wrote:
    >
    >>In message <gq24f6$esm$>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>
    >>> Then I discovered that "testing" is in fact currently called "squeeze",
    >>> that "sid" is really "unstable", the next higher grade of chaos beyond
    >>> "testing", where anything is liable to break at any time!
    >>>
    >>> Oh shit. Oh well...

    >>
    >> You've really asked for it now.

    >
    > What, you mean I've given the pro-Microsoft trolls an excuse to attack?
    >
    > Hasn't really happened, has it? I think they've realized that there isn't
    > really a long-term future in being a Microsoft booster any more. :)


    Many "Microsoft boosters" as you call them do not have the time to waste on
    a religious fervour that drives them to proselytise their chosen operating
    system at every possible opportunity - and at none. They have better things
    to do - like use their operating system instead of having to fight with it.

    --
    - Nicolaas
     
    Nicolaas Hawkins, Mar 23, 2009
    #16
  17. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Alan Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    message news:gq7eqg$j4m$...
    > In message <gq630i$p5e$>, Gib Bogle wrote:
    >
    >>In message <gq24f6$esm$>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    >>wrote:
    >>
    >>> Then I discovered that "testing" is in fact currently called
    >>> "squeeze",
    >>> that "sid" is really "unstable", the next higher grade of chaos
    >>> beyond
    >>> "testing", where anything is liable to break at any time!
    >>>
    >>> Oh shit. Oh well...

    >>
    >> You've really asked for it now.

    >
    > What, you mean I've given the pro-Microsoft trolls an excuse to
    > attack?
    >
    > Hasn't really happened, has it? I think they've realized that there
    > isn't
    > really a long-term future in being a Microsoft booster any more. :)
    >


    More likely, they don't feel the need to do so.

    One of the most embarrassing things I find with OSS is the childish
    trolling that OSS advocates undertake (and, I would note, the Apple
    community is afflicted with the same complex).

    It is hard enough to get people to consider OSS without people
    confirming what they think they already know about the OSS community.

    Note the (generally) more mature response that the Windows community
    has to your problems. If they can't help, they don't post, rather
    than gloating.

    I am a real believer in the right tool for the job, and that is not
    necessarily OSS.

    Alan.

    --

    The views expressed are my own, not those of my employer or others.
    My unmunged email is: (valid for 30 days
    min). The following is a probably unique, meaningless string you can
    use to find my posts in search engines: ewygchvboocno43vb674b6nq46tvb
     
    Alan, Mar 23, 2009
    #17
  18. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    oneofus Guest

    Alan wrote:
    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    > message news:gq7eqg$j4m$...
    >> In message <gq630i$p5e$>, Gib Bogle wrote:
    >>
    >>> In message <gq24f6$esm$>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Then I discovered that "testing" is in fact currently called "squeeze",
    >>>> that "sid" is really "unstable", the next higher grade of chaos beyond
    >>>> "testing", where anything is liable to break at any time!
    >>>>
    >>>> Oh shit. Oh well...
    >>>
    >>> You've really asked for it now.

    >>
    >> What, you mean I've given the pro-Microsoft trolls an excuse to attack?
    >>
    >> Hasn't really happened, has it? I think they've realized that there isn't
    >> really a long-term future in being a Microsoft booster any more. :)
    >>

    >
    > More likely, they don't feel the need to do so.
    >
    > One of the most embarrassing things I find with OSS is the childish
    > trolling that OSS advocates undertake (and, I would note, the Apple
    > community is afflicted with the same complex).
    >
    > It is hard enough to get people to consider OSS without people
    > confirming what they think they already know about the OSS community.
    >
    > Note the (generally) more mature response that the Windows community has
    > to your problems. If they can't help, they don't post, rather than
    > gloating.
    >
    > I am a real believer in the right tool for the job, and that is not
    > necessarily OSS.
    >
    > Alan.
    >


    So you think a Windows troll like this guy is OK ?
    http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/20/ballmer-says-tide-has-turned-on-apple-paying-500-more-to-get/

    Or is he just an embarrassment ;-)
     
    oneofus, Mar 23, 2009
    #18
  19. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Alan Guest

    "oneofus" <> wrote in message
    news:gq7mp0$t1n$...
    > Alan wrote:
    >> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    >> message news:gq7eqg$j4m$...
    >>> In message <gq630i$p5e$>, Gib Bogle wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> In message <gq24f6$esm$>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro
    >>>> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Then I discovered that "testing" is in fact currently called
    >>>>> "squeeze",
    >>>>> that "sid" is really "unstable", the next higher grade of chaos
    >>>>> beyond
    >>>>> "testing", where anything is liable to break at any time!
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Oh shit. Oh well...
    >>>>
    >>>> You've really asked for it now.
    >>>
    >>> What, you mean I've given the pro-Microsoft trolls an excuse to
    >>> attack?
    >>>
    >>> Hasn't really happened, has it? I think they've realized that
    >>> there isn't
    >>> really a long-term future in being a Microsoft booster any more.
    >>> :)
    >>>

    >>
    >> More likely, they don't feel the need to do so.
    >>
    >> One of the most embarrassing things I find with OSS is the childish
    >> trolling that OSS advocates undertake (and, I would note, the Apple
    >> community is afflicted with the same complex).
    >>
    >> It is hard enough to get people to consider OSS without people
    >> confirming what they think they already know about the OSS
    >> community.
    >>
    >> Note the (generally) more mature response that the Windows
    >> community has to your problems. If they can't help, they don't
    >> post, rather than gloating.
    >>
    >> I am a real believer in the right tool for the job, and that is not
    >> necessarily OSS.
    >>
    >> Alan.
    >>

    >
    > So you think a Windows troll like this guy is OK ?
    > http://www.engadget.com/2009/03/20/ballmer-says-tide-has-turned-on-apple-paying-500-more-to-get/
    >
    > Or is he just an embarrassment ;-)
    >


    I don't know that you could call Ballmer a 'troll' for making that
    statement. However, someone who posted it in a newsgroup and makes
    some twee comment having a pop at Linux (say) would be.


    We want to encourage people to move from the dominant platform
    (Windows) to something that provides freedom (OSS).

    If you are in favour of OSS, then you should be trying to persuade
    misguided zealots who damage the cause they are trying to support to
    be more open-minded. It is all about choice, and that does include
    choosing to go with a proprietary option.

    The cause is further damaged by the responses. As soon as anyone has
    engaged a zealot in a debate that they realise they are losing (as
    anyone will eventually who blindly supports one answer), they will
    immediately resort to personal attacks, or find some excuse for
    claiming that the other party is resorting to personal attacks, and
    disengage from the discussion. If you follow many 'OS war' threads,
    you will find that the zealots on both sides effectively surrender
    their position in this manner more often than not and probably don't
    even realise that they have conceded.


    The reality is that each situation has its own specific requirements.
    The lowest TCO for one business might be SBS 2008, for another is
    might be a Debian Server. Irrational attacks on one or the other just
    makes the attacker look like a fool, and by association does (a
    little) damage to whatever side they are taking.


    Alan.

    --

    The views expressed are my own, not those of my employer or others.
    My unmunged email is: (valid for 30 days
    min). The following is a probably unique, meaningless string you can
    use to find my posts in search engines: ewygchvboocno43vb674b6nq46tvb
     
    Alan, Mar 23, 2009
    #19
  20. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    AD. Guest

    On Mar 23, 9:56 pm, "Alan" <> wrote:
    > Note the (generally) more mature response that the Windows community
    > has to your problems.  If they can't help, they don't post, rather
    > than gloating.


    I dunno, the number of immature gloaters from each community seems
    pretty even to me.

    --
    Cheers
    Anton
     
    AD., Mar 23, 2009
    #20
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