Other people's wireless

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Nov 22, 2007.

  1. Here's the scenario: you discover that your neighbours are running unsecured
    wireless networks. Is it moral to bring the issue to their attention by
    securing their networks for them <http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=883>?

    I don't know what the law is in NZ, but it seems to me that the airspace
    inside my house is my property. If somebody is transmitting radio waves
    into that airspace, surely any use I make of those waves is their fault?
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Nov 22, 2007
    #1
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  2. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Allistar Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    > Here's the scenario: you discover that your neighbours are running
    > unsecured wireless networks. Is it moral to bring the issue to their
    > attention by securing their networks for them
    > <http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=883>?
    >
    > I don't know what the law is in NZ, but it seems to me that the airspace
    > inside my house is my property. If somebody is transmitting radio waves
    > into that airspace, surely any use I make of those waves is their fault?


    Yes. But how will you use their wireless connection without transmitting
    waves onto their property in the process?

    [Hopefully this post doesn't appear twice, apologies if it does]
    --
    A.
    Allistar, Nov 22, 2007
    #2
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  3. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Robert Cooze Guest

    Allistar wrote:
    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> Here's the scenario: you discover that your neighbours are running
    >> unsecured wireless networks. Is it moral to bring the issue to their
    >> attention by securing their networks for them
    >> <http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=883>?
    >>
    >> I don't know what the law is in NZ, but it seems to me that the airspace
    >> inside my house is my property. If somebody is transmitting radio waves
    >> into that airspace, surely any use I make of those waves is their fault?

    >
    > Yes. But how will you use their wireless connection without transmitting
    > waves onto their property in the process?
    >
    > [Hopefully this post doesn't appear twice, apologies if it does]


    I think the way NZ law has been written is you cant tell em as that
    means you have had to hacked there system :)

    --
    http://cooze.co.nz home of the RecyclerMan aka Robert Cooze

    / __/ / / / / /__ / / ___/ / __/ / / / |/ / /__ /
    / / / /_/ / / /_/ / _-' / __/ / / / /_/ / / /| / _-'
    ___\ ____/ ____/ /___/ /____/ /_/ ___\ ____/ /_/ /_/ |_/ /___/
    Robert Cooze, Nov 22, 2007
    #3
  4. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    whoisthis Guest

    In article <fi3dlo$amt$>,
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:

    > Here's the scenario: you discover that your neighbours are running unsecured
    > wireless networks. Is it moral to bring the issue to their attention by
    > securing their networks for them <http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=883>?
    >
    > I don't know what the law is in NZ, but it seems to me that the airspace
    > inside my house is my property. If somebody is transmitting radio waves
    > into that airspace, surely any use I make of those waves is their fault?


    why is it people always try to use flimsy bullshit to justify their
    actions.
    whoisthis, Nov 22, 2007
    #4
  5. In article <>, Allistar did
    write:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> I don't know what the law is in NZ, but it seems to me that the airspace
    >> inside my house is my property. If somebody is transmitting radio waves
    >> into that airspace, surely any use I make of those waves is their fault?

    >
    > Yes. But how will you use their wireless connection without transmitting
    > waves onto their property in the process?


    Good point. :)
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Nov 22, 2007
    #5
  6. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Gordon Guest

    On 2007-11-22, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    > Here's the scenario: you discover that your neighbours are running unsecured
    > wireless networks. Is it moral to bring the issue to their attention by
    > securing their networks for them <http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=883>?
    >
    > I don't know what the law is in NZ, but it seems to me that the airspace
    > inside my house is my property. If somebody is transmitting radio waves
    > into that airspace, surely any use I make of those waves is their fault?


    As other posters have hinted, you may receive only, but you may not act upon
    it. ( And yet we have advertising on TV.)

    If you are concerned then just walk over and say, Have you thought about
    securing your wireless network?
    Gordon, Nov 23, 2007
    #6
  7. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    eyes Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > Here's the scenario: you discover that your neighbours are running unsecured
    > wireless networks. Is it moral to bring the issue to their attention by
    > securing their networks for them <http://blogs.zdnet.com/Ou/?p=883>?


    Depends what you mean by unsecured really... I purposefully run a
    wireless network with no encryption and DHCP turned on. However, it is
    not unsecured! It is all firewalled off and running on its own IP range
    (gotta love DD-WRT), so I have no worries with my own network.

    Why do you ask? Because I want my neighbours to be able to connect if
    they need it!

    Granted, few people do this, and most likely an AP SSID of
    "DLINK_WIRELESS" on channel 6 is unlikely to have been planned or
    thought out in any way...
    eyes, Nov 23, 2007
    #7
  8. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Richard Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > In article <>, Allistar did
    > write:
    >
    >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>
    >>> I don't know what the law is in NZ, but it seems to me that the airspace
    >>> inside my house is my property. If somebody is transmitting radio waves
    >>> into that airspace, surely any use I make of those waves is their fault?

    >> Yes. But how will you use their wireless connection without transmitting
    >> waves onto their property in the process?

    >
    > Good point. :)


    They are soliciting those replys by having a network that responds to a
    request being sent for "ANY" network and having that network setup in a
    manner that allows for anyone to connect to it.

    If they wanted it to not be used, then they would not have it
    "broadcasting ssid" and they would have some access controls on it.
    Richard, Nov 24, 2007
    #8
  9. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    whoisthis Guest

    In article <47478ee8$>, Richard <>
    wrote:

    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > > In article <>, Allistar did
    > > write:
    > >
    > >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > >>
    > >>> I don't know what the law is in NZ, but it seems to me that the airspace
    > >>> inside my house is my property. If somebody is transmitting radio waves
    > >>> into that airspace, surely any use I make of those waves is their fault?
    > >> Yes. But how will you use their wireless connection without transmitting
    > >> waves onto their property in the process?

    > >
    > > Good point. :)

    >
    > They are soliciting those replys by having a network that responds to a
    > request being sent for "ANY" network and having that network setup in a
    > manner that allows for anyone to connect to it.
    >
    > If they wanted it to not be used, then they would not have it
    > "broadcasting ssid" and they would have some access controls on it.


    Yeah, just like people who don't lock their doors and windows are
    inviting burlars.
    whoisthis, Nov 24, 2007
    #9
  10. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Richard Guest

    whoisthis wrote:

    >> If they wanted it to not be used, then they would not have it
    >> "broadcasting ssid" and they would have some access controls on it.

    >
    > Yeah, just like people who don't lock their doors and windows are
    > inviting burlars.


    No, not at all, people dont often invite people into their house to take
    stuff, but allowing other people to use your internet connection is very
    common.
    Richard, Nov 24, 2007
    #10
  11. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    whoisthis Guest

    In article <>, Richard <>
    wrote:

    > whoisthis wrote:
    >
    > >> If they wanted it to not be used, then they would not have it
    > >> "broadcasting ssid" and they would have some access controls on it.

    > >
    > > Yeah, just like people who don't lock their doors and windows are
    > > inviting burlars.

    >
    > No, not at all, people dont often invite people into their house to take
    > stuff, but allowing other people to use your internet connection is very
    > common.


    why is an open wireless network any more of an invitation than an open
    window ?
    whoisthis, Nov 24, 2007
    #11
  12. In article <47478ee8$>, Richard did write:

    > If they wanted it to not be used, then they would not have it
    > "broadcasting ssid" and they would have some access controls on it.


    I don't think it's unreasonable to broadcast the SSID. Access controls,
    yes--those should be in place.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Nov 24, 2007
    #12
  13. In article <>, whoisthis did
    write:

    > why is an open wireless network any more of an invitation than an open
    > window ?


    Did you mean "why is an open wireless network any _less_ of an invitation
    than an open window?"?
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Nov 24, 2007
    #13
  14. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    sam Guest

    whoisthis wrote:
    > In article <>, Richard <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> whoisthis wrote:
    >>
    >>>> If they wanted it to not be used, then they would not have it
    >>>> "broadcasting ssid" and they would have some access controls on it.
    >>> Yeah, just like people who don't lock their doors and windows are
    >>> inviting burlars.

    >> No, not at all, people dont often invite people into their house to take
    >> stuff, but allowing other people to use your internet connection is very
    >> common.

    >
    > why is an open wireless network any more of an invitation than an open
    > window ?


    Cafenet is an open wireless network, you just get a captive portal that
    allows you free content, or you can go to their payments page and buy
    some time or data and log in. I have connected to cafenet before and
    opened itunes and found I can play other peoples iTunes shares, I can
    only assume that that is their intention.
    There are plenty of people experimenting with mesh networks too, and it
    is not possible to know what the intention of someone with an open
    access point is, they may intend to share their connection.
    sam, Nov 24, 2007
    #14
  15. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    sam Guest

    whoisthis wrote:
    > In article <47478ee8$>, Richard <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>> In article <>, Allistar did
    >>> write:
    >>>
    >>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> I don't know what the law is in NZ, but it seems to me that the airspace
    >>>>> inside my house is my property. If somebody is transmitting radio waves
    >>>>> into that airspace, surely any use I make of those waves is their fault?
    >>>> Yes. But how will you use their wireless connection without transmitting
    >>>> waves onto their property in the process?
    >>> Good point. :)

    >> They are soliciting those replys by having a network that responds to a
    >> request being sent for "ANY" network and having that network setup in a
    >> manner that allows for anyone to connect to it.
    >>
    >> If they wanted it to not be used, then they would not have it
    >> "broadcasting ssid" and they would have some access controls on it.

    >
    > Yeah, just like people who don't lock their doors and windows are
    > inviting burlars.



    Or it could be lie like putting a skip in front of your house with a
    Free Firewood sign on it.
    sam, Nov 24, 2007
    #15
  16. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    whoisthis Guest

    In article <>, sam <> wrote:

    > whoisthis wrote:
    > > In article <47478ee8$>, Richard <>
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > >> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > >>> In article <>, Allistar did
    > >>> write:
    > >>>
    > >>>> Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    > >>>>
    > >>>>> I don't know what the law is in NZ, but it seems to me that the airspace
    > >>>>> inside my house is my property. If somebody is transmitting radio waves
    > >>>>> into that airspace, surely any use I make of those waves is their fault?
    > >>>> Yes. But how will you use their wireless connection without transmitting
    > >>>> waves onto their property in the process?
    > >>> Good point. :)
    > >> They are soliciting those replys by having a network that responds to a
    > >> request being sent for "ANY" network and having that network setup in a
    > >> manner that allows for anyone to connect to it.
    > >>
    > >> If they wanted it to not be used, then they would not have it
    > >> "broadcasting ssid" and they would have some access controls on it.

    > >
    > > Yeah, just like people who don't lock their doors and windows are
    > > inviting burlars.

    >
    >
    > Or it could be lie like putting a skip in front of your house with a
    > Free Firewood sign on it.


    Not at all. You are assuming that everyone who has wireless knows how to
    secure it, that is patently untrue.
    We can I think safely assume MORE people know how to close a window, so
    therefore an open window is more likely to be an invitation.
    whoisthis, Nov 24, 2007
    #16
  17. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    whoisthis Guest

    In article <4747e849$>, sam <> wrote:

    > whoisthis wrote:
    > > In article <>, Richard <>
    > > wrote:
    > >
    > >> whoisthis wrote:
    > >>
    > >>>> If they wanted it to not be used, then they would not have it
    > >>>> "broadcasting ssid" and they would have some access controls on it.
    > >>> Yeah, just like people who don't lock their doors and windows are
    > >>> inviting burlars.
    > >> No, not at all, people dont often invite people into their house to take
    > >> stuff, but allowing other people to use your internet connection is very
    > >> common.

    > >
    > > why is an open wireless network any more of an invitation than an open
    > > window ?

    >
    > Cafenet is an open wireless network, you just get a captive portal that
    > allows you free content, or you can go to their payments page and buy
    > some time or data and log in. I have connected to cafenet before and
    > opened itunes and found I can play other peoples iTunes shares, I can
    > only assume that that is their intention.


    Commercial enterprise is different from an unwitting home owner.

    > There are plenty of people experimenting with mesh networks too, and it
    > is not possible to know what the intention of someone with an open
    > access point is, they may intend to share their connection.


    The one should ask, failure to do so would indicate that you suspect it
    is NOT open and asking may make them close it.
    whoisthis, Nov 24, 2007
    #17
  18. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Richard Guest

    whoisthis wrote:

    >> No, not at all, people dont often invite people into their house to take
    >> stuff, but allowing other people to use your internet connection is very
    >> common.

    >
    > why is an open wireless network any more of an invitation than an open
    > window ?


    Because it is the norm that places provide networks that allow people to
    connect to and use.
    Richard, Nov 24, 2007
    #18
  19. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Richard Guest

    whoisthis wrote:

    >> Or it could be lie like putting a skip in front of your house with a
    >> Free Firewood sign on it.

    >
    > Not at all. You are assuming that everyone who has wireless knows how to
    > secure it, that is patently untrue.
    > We can I think safely assume MORE people know how to close a window, so
    > therefore an open window is more likely to be an invitation.


    When you buy a house, it is expected that you will close the door when
    you leave, when you buy a car, you are given the means to secure it, and
    so on and so on. The tools are in place to do so, they just need to be
    turned on.

    The only way to signal to people that the network is not a free open one
    is to secure it in some way. even with wep being the well broken whore
    of security, the mere presence of it makes your intention to keep others
    off the network clear.

    A lot of the blame lies on hardware vendors and ISPs for supplying
    equipment in a default insecure state, but it is still the users
    responsibility to know what they are doing with it, and if not, to hire
    some one that does.
    Richard, Nov 24, 2007
    #19
  20. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    impossible Guest

    "Richard" <> wrote in message
    news:47480a94$...
    > whoisthis wrote:
    >
    >>> No, not at all, people dont often invite people into their house to take
    >>> stuff, but allowing other people to use your internet connection is very
    >>> common.

    >>
    >> why is an open wireless network any more of an invitation than an open
    >> window ?

    >
    > Because it is the norm that places provide networks that allow people to
    > connect to and use.


    It's also the norm that homes provide windows that allow people to
    view/enter , but it's generally accepted that only perverts/thieves do so
    without asking the homeowner's permission. If you get caught at either
    endeavor, don't say you weren't warned.
    impossible, Nov 24, 2007
    #20
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