OT: HISTORIANS - I need proof the german people were guilty of the holocaust

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by Arawak, Oct 16, 2003.

  1. Arawak

    Arawak Guest

    Let me preface this message by saying I love travelling to Germany and
    have many german acquaintances.
    I have a friend who graduated from ASU and who also represents the
    U.S. on our olympic team. He is married to a colleague of mine and on
    a recent cruise, I was shocked to hear him claim that he had studied
    WWII extensively and knew as a fact that most germans were unaware of
    the holocaust and innocent of the crimes they were accused of,
    When I tried to argue the point, I realized I had no definitive
    reference to provide him as proof and immediately changed the subject
    to preserve our friendship as he was getting red in the face and quite
    argumentative. Although my grandmother was on one of the 1st ships
    which was turned away from N.Y. (since the U.S. was not yet in the
    war), ending up in Jamaica, I supressed my anger during this
    conversation but I have to admit it hurt me to the bone to discover
    that a friend of mine had opinions so different from mine about a
    subject which is very important to me.
    Anyway, I am trying to find neutral (non-semetic) references on the
    internet which might enlighten him.
    Any suggestions would be appreciated.

    TIA,
    Arawak
    Arawak, Oct 16, 2003
    #1
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  2. Arawak

    Harrison Guest

    Don't let the mistakes of the past undermine the hope for the future.

    On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 04:39:17 GMT, Arawak <> wrote:

    >Let me preface this message by saying I love travelling to Germany and
    >have many german acquaintances.
    >I have a friend who graduated from ASU and who also represents the
    >U.S. on our olympic team. He is married to a colleague of mine and on
    >a recent cruise, I was shocked to hear him claim that he had studied
    >WWII extensively and knew as a fact that most germans were unaware of
    >the holocaust and innocent of the crimes they were accused of,
    >When I tried to argue the point, I realized I had no definitive
    >reference to provide him as proof and immediately changed the subject
    >to preserve our friendship as he was getting red in the face and quite
    >argumentative. Although my grandmother was on one of the 1st ships
    >which was turned away from N.Y. (since the U.S. was not yet in the
    >war), ending up in Jamaica, I supressed my anger during this
    >conversation but I have to admit it hurt me to the bone to discover
    >that a friend of mine had opinions so different from mine about a
    >subject which is very important to me.
    >Anyway, I am trying to find neutral (non-semetic) references on the
    >internet which might enlighten him.
    >Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    >
    >TIA,
    >Arawak
    Harrison, Oct 16, 2003
    #2
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  3. Arawak

    Patrick Guest

    Re: HISTORIANS - I need proof the german people were guilty of the holocaust

    Thiere is plenty as to the matter with Google search "Germans ignorant of
    Holocaust"
    One that I had a look at was; http://www.remember.org/imagine/henchman.html

    Anyway, the Germans were eventually given 'a jolly good hideing' (Dresden
    etc.), thus they must have wondered what they could have done to have
    deserved said 'Terror Bombing'.

    Arawak wrote:
    > Let me preface this message by saying I love travelling to Germany and
    > have many german acquaintances.
    > I have a friend who graduated from ASU and who also represents the
    > U.S. on our olympic team. He is married to a colleague of mine and on
    > a recent cruise, I was shocked to hear him claim that he had studied
    > WWII extensively and knew as a fact that most germans were unaware of
    > the holocaust and innocent of the crimes they were accused of,
    > When I tried to argue the point, I realized I had no definitive
    > reference to provide him as proof and immediately changed the subject
    > to preserve our friendship as he was getting red in the face and quite
    > argumentative. Although my grandmother was on one of the 1st ships
    > which was turned away from N.Y. (since the U.S. was not yet in the
    > war), ending up in Jamaica, I supressed my anger during this
    > conversation but I have to admit it hurt me to the bone to discover
    > that a friend of mine had opinions so different from mine about a
    > subject which is very important to me.
    > Anyway, I am trying to find neutral (non-semetic) references on the
    > internet which might enlighten him.
    > Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    >
    > TIA,
    > Arawak
    Patrick, Oct 16, 2003
    #3
  4. Re: HISTORIANS - I need proof the german people were guilty of the holocaust

    X-No-Archive: Yes

    In news:,
    Arawak <> typed
    || Let me preface this message by saying I love travelling to Germany
    || and have many german acquaintances.
    || I have a friend who graduated from ASU and who also represents the
    || U.S. on our olympic team. He is married to a colleague of mine and on
    || a recent cruise, I was shocked to hear him claim that he had studied
    || WWII extensively and knew as a fact that most germans were unaware of
    || the holocaust and innocent of the crimes they were accused of,

    What crimes? Who said the Germans committed the holocaust?

    I thought it was the Nazis who committed the holocaust???

    I mean, it's like saying that the wehrmacht were nazis when, in fact, they
    were simply soldiers fighting for their country. Sure, some were nazis, but
    they were more often than not transferred to elite regiments where they
    could kill unarmed civilians and children.

    Certainly there were a lot of civilians who were nazis, but equally there
    were many who were diametrically opposed, but said nothing for fear of
    retribution.

    || When I tried to argue the point, I realized I had no definitive
    || reference to provide him as proof and immediately changed the subject
    || to preserve our friendship as he was getting red in the face and
    || quite argumentative. Although my grandmother was on one of the 1st
    || ships which was turned away from N.Y. (since the U.S. was not yet in
    || the war), ending up in Jamaica, I supressed my anger during this
    || conversation but I have to admit it hurt me to the bone to discover
    || that a friend of mine had opinions so different from mine about a
    || subject which is very important to me.
    || Anyway, I am trying to find neutral (non-semetic) references on the
    || internet which might enlighten him.
    || Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    ||
    || TIA,
    || Arawak
    Robert de Brus, Oct 16, 2003
    #4
  5. Re: OT: HISTORIANS - I need proof the german people were guilty ofthe holocaust

    Harrison wrote:
    > Don't let the mistakes of the past undermine the hope for the future.
    >
    > On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 04:39:17 GMT, Arawak <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Let me preface this message by saying I love travelling to Germany and
    >>have many german acquaintances..........


    >>Anyway, I am trying to find neutral (non-semetic) references on the
    >>internet which might enlighten him.
    >>Any suggestions would be appreciated.


    I would suggest a simple search on the Library Of Congress or US Army
    web sites would give you what you need....

    Failing that, PLEASE visit a Sr center and speak to someone about it....
    before they're no longer with us.

    --
    --

    BuffNET Technical Support Supervisor
    (BEHOLD! The power of the BOFH!)
    BuffNET Tech Support - MichaelJ, Oct 16, 2003
    #5
  6. Arawak

    MrG Guest

    Re: HISTORIANS - I need proof the german people were guilty of the holocaust

    Turn on the History channel, Discovery, or UK History at any time. They are
    awash with documentaries giving first hand accounts of events, many of them
    by German soldiers and civilians. It's a lesson for the world how
    governments can mislead their people with propaganda and promises of
    reclaiming what was lost.

    We owe it to all the people who died in the war and as a result of crimes
    commited by all parties, on all sides, not to forget. It is easy to
    question and doubt from a position of ignorance, but you do so at the
    expense of your future, and the memory of those who died.

    In the Information Age, there really is no excuse for ignorance.


    "Arawak" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Let me preface this message by saying I love travelling to Germany and
    > have many german acquaintances.
    > I have a friend who graduated from ASU and who also represents the
    > U.S. on our olympic team. He is married to a colleague of mine and on
    > a recent cruise, I was shocked to hear him claim that he had studied
    > WWII extensively and knew as a fact that most germans were unaware of
    > the holocaust and innocent of the crimes they were accused of,
    > When I tried to argue the point, I realized I had no definitive
    > reference to provide him as proof and immediately changed the subject
    > to preserve our friendship as he was getting red in the face and quite
    > argumentative. Although my grandmother was on one of the 1st ships
    > which was turned away from N.Y. (since the U.S. was not yet in the
    > war), ending up in Jamaica, I supressed my anger during this
    > conversation but I have to admit it hurt me to the bone to discover
    > that a friend of mine had opinions so different from mine about a
    > subject which is very important to me.
    > Anyway, I am trying to find neutral (non-semetic) references on the
    > internet which might enlighten him.
    > Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    >
    > TIA,
    > Arawak
    MrG, Oct 17, 2003
    #6
  7. Arawak

    Arawak Guest

    Re: HISTORIANS - I need proof the german people were guilty of the holocaust

    My mistake, I thought the Nazis were Germans except for their Austrian
    leader.
    So if we as a people witness genocide within our own borders and
    although, diametrically opposed, do nothing but look the other way due
    to fear of retribution then we must be considered innocent in
    hindsight? That must be a christian charity I missed.
    Anyway, I was not looking to argue semantics, just getting references
    which a few others were kind enough to provide.
    I value your opinion and realize there will always be different
    interpretation of history.

    On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:48:34 +1000, "Robert de Brus" <de_brus@h o t m
    a i l.com> wrote:

    >X-No-Archive: Yes
    >
    >In news:,
    >Arawak <> typed
    >|| Let me preface this message by saying I love travelling to Germany
    >|| and have many german acquaintances.
    >|| I have a friend who graduated from ASU and who also represents the
    >|| U.S. on our olympic team. He is married to a colleague of mine and on
    >|| a recent cruise, I was shocked to hear him claim that he had studied
    >|| WWII extensively and knew as a fact that most germans were unaware of
    >|| the holocaust and innocent of the crimes they were accused of,
    >
    >What crimes? Who said the Germans committed the holocaust?
    >
    >I thought it was the Nazis who committed the holocaust???
    >
    >I mean, it's like saying that the wehrmacht were nazis when, in fact, they
    >were simply soldiers fighting for their country. Sure, some were nazis, but
    >they were more often than not transferred to elite regiments where they
    >could kill unarmed civilians and children.
    >
    >Certainly there were a lot of civilians who were nazis, but equally there
    >were many who were diametrically opposed, but said nothing for fear of
    >retribution.
    >
    >|| When I tried to argue the point, I realized I had no definitive
    >|| reference to provide him as proof and immediately changed the subject
    >|| to preserve our friendship as he was getting red in the face and
    >|| quite argumentative. Although my grandmother was on one of the 1st
    >|| ships which was turned away from N.Y. (since the U.S. was not yet in
    >|| the war), ending up in Jamaica, I supressed my anger during this
    >|| conversation but I have to admit it hurt me to the bone to discover
    >|| that a friend of mine had opinions so different from mine about a
    >|| subject which is very important to me.
    >|| Anyway, I am trying to find neutral (non-semetic) references on the
    >|| internet which might enlighten him.
    >|| Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    >||
    >|| TIA,
    >|| Arawak
    >
    >
    Arawak, Oct 17, 2003
    #7
  8. Arawak

    Scribner Guest

    Re: HISTORIANS - I need proof the german people were guilty of the holocaust

    I seem to remember that Hitler was democratically elected by the
    German people. He was an Austrian citizen, but through a loophole
    (minor political appointment) he obtained German citizenship. Then he
    was elected (first politician to fly) and then he took over
    (liberated) the Ostreich (Austria). It has been put forth that the
    large numbers of Austrians in the SS was due to their feelings of
    inferiority to the Germans. Anyway, when Hitler came to power, all of
    the military forces, each individual soldier and sailor, swore an oath
    of personal allegiance to Adolf Hitler (2 Aug. 1934). The oath ran:
    ""I swear by almighty God this sacred oath: I will render
    unconditional obedience
    to the Fuehrer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler,
    Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht, and, as a brave soldier,
    I will be ready at any time to stake my life for this oath." The
    Hitler Jung also had to swear a similar oath on an annual basis. The
    military oath was subsequently taken by each soldier or sailor as they
    entered military service. So, if Hitler was a Nazi (I think that his
    membership number was #5), and the military and youth swore an oath of
    unconditional obedience to him, then they should probably be
    considered Nazis, also. Then there are the common people who
    popularly elected him. They can't claim ignorance because his
    blueprint, "Mein Kamph" came out before he was elected Chancellor.
    Between the military and the voters (not to mention the loyal Party
    members, and the SA) that should be a pretty fair chunk of the
    population. That chunk gets even better if you eliminate (no pun
    intended) from the population everyone who was put into a
    concentration camp or simply executed. As for the part of ignorance,
    every "good" German family had a Bible and "Mein Kamph" (unless you
    were part of the SS or SD, then there was supposed to be no Bible).
    They were also supposed to have read "Mein Kamph." If they couldn't
    figure out the ramifications of "Liebestraum" then they were idiots.


    On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:22:19 GMT, Arawak <> wrote:

    >My mistake, I thought the Nazis were Germans except for their Austrian
    >leader.
    >So if we as a people witness genocide within our own borders and
    >although, diametrically opposed, do nothing but look the other way due
    >to fear of retribution then we must be considered innocent in
    >hindsight? That must be a christian charity I missed.
    >Anyway, I was not looking to argue semantics, just getting references
    >which a few others were kind enough to provide.
    >I value your opinion and realize there will always be different
    >interpretation of history.
    >
    >On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:48:34 +1000, "Robert de Brus" <de_brus@h o t m
    >a i l.com> wrote:
    >
    >>X-No-Archive: Yes
    >>
    >>In news:,
    >>Arawak <> typed
    >>|| Let me preface this message by saying I love travelling to Germany
    >>|| and have many german acquaintances.
    >>|| I have a friend who graduated from ASU and who also represents the
    >>|| U.S. on our olympic team. He is married to a colleague of mine and on
    >>|| a recent cruise, I was shocked to hear him claim that he had studied
    >>|| WWII extensively and knew as a fact that most germans were unaware of
    >>|| the holocaust and innocent of the crimes they were accused of,
    >>
    >>What crimes? Who said the Germans committed the holocaust?


    Well, let's see. The crematoriums were designed and patented by the
    Germans. The soldiers who guarded the death camps were from either
    Germany or Austria (which was absorbed into Germany before the war).
    The gold, and other material, gleaned from the victims of the
    Holocaust ended up in German bank vaults. Oh, and the surviving
    eyewitness death camp survivors who said that the Germans did.



    >>
    >>I thought it was the Nazis who committed the holocaust???
    >>
    >>I mean, it's like saying that the wehrmacht were nazis when, in fact, they
    >>were simply soldiers fighting for their country. Sure, some were nazis, but
    >>they were more often than not transferred to elite regiments where they
    >>could kill unarmed civilians and children.


    True, more blatant atrocities were probably carried out by the SS, but
    if you consider the fact that WW II began by the German military being
    attacked by dead Germans dressed in Polish uniforms (Operation Canned
    Goods), then the war itself was an unprovoked act of aggression
    carried out by the regular forces. Which is a greater atrocity,
    killing the civilian population of a town (SS) or attacking defending
    soldiers armed with lances and mounted on horseback with tanks
    (Wehrmacht). Oh, I forgot the Air Force's little tactic of forcing
    civilians onto the roads so that the defending military couldn't send
    forward needed military units. The Reich military were not fighting
    for The Fatherland. They were fighting for Adolf Hitler PERSONALLY.
    >>
    >>Certainly there were a lot of civilians who were nazis, but equally there
    >>were many who were diametrically opposed, but said nothing for fear of
    >>retribution.


    I find it doubtful if the number of free Germans who were against
    Hitler's policies on June 1, 1940 (when Hitler was winning - it is
    easy to be against him when he is losing) was greater than the total
    German population killed or incarcerated by the Nazis from 1936 to
    1945. Remember, they were "knifed in the back" and lost WW I. Then
    they had the Treaty of Versailles, the loss of the Ruhr Valley, and
    the Depression to deal with. They were the ultimate underdogs, in
    their eyes. So to finally be able to stick it to those who had been
    sticking it to them felt damn good. They had jobs, military success,
    and a chance at an Empire. What was there not to love?
    >>
    >>|| When I tried to argue the point, I realized I had no definitive
    >>|| reference to provide him as proof and immediately changed the subject
    >>|| to preserve our friendship as he was getting red in the face and
    >>|| quite argumentative. Although my grandmother was on one of the 1st
    >>|| ships which was turned away from N.Y. (since the U.S. was not yet in
    >>|| the war), ending up in Jamaica, I supressed my anger during this
    >>|| conversation but I have to admit it hurt me to the bone to discover
    >>|| that a friend of mine had opinions so different from mine about a
    >>|| subject which is very important to me.
    >>|| Anyway, I am trying to find neutral (non-semetic) references on the
    >>|| internet which might enlighten him.
    >>|| Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    >>||
    >>|| TIA,
    >>|| Arawak
    >>
    >>
    Scribner, Oct 17, 2003
    #8
  9. Re: HISTORIANS - I need proof the german people were guilty of the holocaust

    X-No-Archive: Yes

    In news:,
    Arawak <> typed
    || My mistake, I thought the Nazis were Germans except for their
    || Austrian leader.

    Are you serious?

    With that ridiculous logic, all Germans are guilty because some Germans were
    Nazis?

    So a distant relative of yours kills someone, you should be executed for it.

    Sounds great to me

    what are you having for you last meal, BOZO?

    || So if we as a people witness genocide within our own borders and
    || although, diametrically opposed, do nothing but look the other way
    || due
    || to fear of retribution then we must be considered innocent in
    || hindsight? That must be a christian charity I missed.

    Nothing to do with Christianity

    You've never been in such a situation so how can you possibly know what
    these people might or might not have felt or thought?

    What a fucking st00pid thing to say.

    || Anyway, I was not looking to argue semantics, just getting references

    sure, sure

    || which a few others were kind enough to provide.
    || I value your opinion and realize there will always be different
    || interpretation of history.
    ||
    || On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:48:34 +1000, "Robert de Brus" <de_brus@h o t m
    || a i l.com> wrote:
    ||
    ||| X-No-Archive: Yes
    |||
    ||| In news:,
    ||| Arawak <> typed
    ||||| Let me preface this message by saying I love travelling to Germany
    ||||| and have many german acquaintances.
    ||||| I have a friend who graduated from ASU and who also represents the
    ||||| U.S. on our olympic team. He is married to a colleague of mine
    ||||| and on
    ||||| a recent cruise, I was shocked to hear him claim that he had
    ||||| studied WWII extensively and knew as a fact that most germans
    ||||| were unaware of the holocaust and innocent of the crimes they
    ||||| were accused of,
    |||
    ||| What crimes? Who said the Germans committed the holocaust?
    |||
    ||| I thought it was the Nazis who committed the holocaust???
    |||
    ||| I mean, it's like saying that the wehrmacht were nazis when, in
    ||| fact, they were simply soldiers fighting for their country. Sure,
    ||| some were nazis, but they were more often than not transferred to
    ||| elite regiments where they could kill unarmed civilians and
    ||| children.
    |||
    ||| Certainly there were a lot of civilians who were nazis, but equally
    ||| there were many who were diametrically opposed, but said nothing
    ||| for fear of retribution.
    |||
    ||||| When I tried to argue the point, I realized I had no definitive
    ||||| reference to provide him as proof and immediately changed the
    ||||| subject to preserve our friendship as he was getting red in the
    ||||| face and
    ||||| quite argumentative. Although my grandmother was on one of the 1st
    ||||| ships which was turned away from N.Y. (since the U.S. was not yet
    ||||| in the war), ending up in Jamaica, I supressed my anger during
    ||||| this conversation but I have to admit it hurt me to the bone to
    ||||| discover that a friend of mine had opinions so different from
    ||||| mine about a subject which is very important to me.
    ||||| Anyway, I am trying to find neutral (non-semetic) references on
    ||||| the internet which might enlighten him.
    ||||| Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    |||||
    ||||| TIA,
    ||||| Arawak
    Robert de Brus, Oct 17, 2003
    #9
  10. Re: HISTORIANS - I need proof the german people were guilty of the holocaust

    X-No-Archive: Yes

    In news:,
    Scribner <walter3ca@no_spam_yahoo.com> typed
    || I seem to remember that Hitler was democratically elected by the
    || German people. He was an Austrian citizen, but through a loophole

    So have been many idiots

    || (minor political appointment) he obtained German citizenship. Then
    || he
    || was elected (first politician to fly) and then he took over
    || (liberated) the Ostreich (Austria). It has been put forth that the
    || large numbers of Austrians in the SS was due to their feelings of
    || inferiority to the Germans. Anyway, when Hitler came to power, all
    || of
    || the military forces, each individual soldier and sailor, swore an
    || oath
    || of personal allegiance to Adolf Hitler (2 Aug. 1934). The oath ran:
    || ""I swear by almighty God this sacred oath: I will render
    || unconditional obedience
    || to the Fuehrer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler,
    || Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht, and, as a brave soldier,
    || I will be ready at any time to stake my life for this oath." The

    No soldier has ever lied. No German has ever lied under oath. Nobody has
    ever taken an oath for the sake of a job or because they were drafded
    (forced to).

    || Hitler Jung also had to swear a similar oath on an annual basis. The
    || military oath was subsequently taken by each soldier or sailor as

    Kids, many pre pubescent, who knew what it was all about, none of who were
    brainwashed with propaganda.

    || they entered military service. So, if Hitler was a Nazi (I think
    || that his membership number was #5), and the military and youth swore
    || an oath of unconditional obedience to him, then they should probably
    || be
    || considered Nazis, also. Then there are the common people who

    What a absolutely st00pid conclusion

    || popularly elected him. They can't claim ignorance because his

    He was elected by the German people because they knew he was going to murder
    6,000,000 jewish men, women, and children.

    || blueprint, "Mein Kamph" came out before he was elected Chancellor.
    || Between the military and the voters (not to mention the loyal Party
    || members, and the SA) that should be a pretty fair chunk of the
    || population. That chunk gets even better if you eliminate (no pun
    || intended) from the population everyone who was put into a
    || concentration camp or simply executed. As for the part of ignorance,
    || every "good" German family had a Bible and "Mein Kamph" (unless you

    To prove they were good Germans in case the Nazis came a knockin'

    || were part of the SS or SD, then there was supposed to be no Bible).

    Why? Even the SS oath mentions God, even though they were not supposed to
    believe.

    || They were also supposed to have read "Mein Kamph." If they couldn't
    || figure out the ramifications of "Liebestraum" then they were idiots.
    ||
    ||
    || On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:22:19 GMT, Arawak <> wrote:
    ||
    ||| My mistake, I thought the Nazis were Germans except for their
    ||| Austrian leader.
    ||| So if we as a people witness genocide within our own borders and
    ||| although, diametrically opposed, do nothing but look the other way
    ||| due
    ||| to fear of retribution then we must be considered innocent in
    ||| hindsight? That must be a christian charity I missed.
    ||| Anyway, I was not looking to argue semantics, just getting
    ||| references
    ||| which a few others were kind enough to provide.
    ||| I value your opinion and realize there will always be different
    ||| interpretation of history.
    |||
    ||| On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:48:34 +1000, "Robert de Brus" <de_brus@h o t
    ||| m
    ||| a i l.com> wrote:
    |||
    |||| X-No-Archive: Yes
    ||||
    |||| In news:,
    |||| Arawak <> typed
    |||||| Let me preface this message by saying I love travelling to
    |||||| Germany
    |||||| and have many german acquaintances.
    |||||| I have a friend who graduated from ASU and who also represents
    |||||| the
    |||||| U.S. on our olympic team. He is married to a colleague of mine
    |||||| and on
    |||||| a recent cruise, I was shocked to hear him claim that he had
    |||||| studied WWII extensively and knew as a fact that most germans
    |||||| were unaware of the holocaust and innocent of the crimes they
    |||||| were accused of,
    ||||
    |||| What crimes? Who said the Germans committed the holocaust?
    ||
    || Well, let's see. The crematoriums were designed and patented by the
    || Germans. The soldiers who guarded the death camps were from either

    By *all* Germans, or just a few?

    || Germany or Austria (which was absorbed into Germany before the war).

    Ummm, not entirely true. In fact many guards in camps outside of Germany
    were captured locals.

    || The gold, and other material, gleaned from the victims of the
    || Holocaust ended up in German bank vaults. Oh, and the surviving

    Ummm, Swiss actually

    || eyewitness death camp survivors who said that the Germans did.

    Again, would that be *all* Germans, or just the ones these people knew
    about?


    Where are you from, I'd like to accuse you of an attrocity by association.
    Numbskull!

    ||
    ||
    ||
    ||||
    |||| I thought it was the Nazis who committed the holocaust???
    ||||
    |||| I mean, it's like saying that the wehrmacht were nazis when, in
    |||| fact, they were simply soldiers fighting for their country. Sure,
    |||| some were nazis, but they were more often than not transferred to
    |||| elite regiments where they could kill unarmed civilians and
    |||| children.
    ||
    || True, more blatant atrocities were probably carried out by the SS,
    || but
    || if you consider the fact that WW II began by the German military
    || being attacked by dead Germans dressed in Polish uniforms (Operation
    || Canned Goods), then the war itself was an unprovoked act of
    || aggression
    || carried out by the regular forces. Which is a greater atrocity,
    || killing the civilian population of a town (SS) or attacking defending
    || soldiers armed with lances and mounted on horseback with tanks
    || (Wehrmacht). Oh, I forgot the Air Force's little tactic of forcing
    || civilians onto the roads so that the defending military couldn't send
    || forward needed military units. The Reich military were not fighting
    || for The Fatherland. They were fighting for Adolf Hitler PERSONALLY.
    ||||
    |||| Certainly there were a lot of civilians who were nazis, but
    |||| equally there were many who were diametrically opposed, but said
    |||| nothing for fear of retribution.
    ||
    || I find it doubtful if the number of free Germans who were against
    || Hitler's policies on June 1, 1940 (when Hitler was winning - it is
    || easy to be against him when he is losing) was greater than the total
    || German population killed or incarcerated by the Nazis from 1936 to
    || 1945. Remember, they were "knifed in the back" and lost WW I. Then
    || they had the Treaty of Versailles, the loss of the Ruhr Valley, and
    || the Depression to deal with. They were the ultimate underdogs, in
    || their eyes. So to finally be able to stick it to those who had been
    || sticking it to them felt damn good. They had jobs, military success,
    || and a chance at an Empire. What was there not to love?
    ||||
    |||||| When I tried to argue the point, I realized I had no definitive
    |||||| reference to provide him as proof and immediately changed the
    |||||| subject to preserve our friendship as he was getting red in the
    |||||| face and
    |||||| quite argumentative. Although my grandmother was on one of the
    |||||| 1st ships which was turned away from N.Y. (since the U.S. was
    |||||| not yet in the war), ending up in Jamaica, I supressed my anger
    |||||| during this conversation but I have to admit it hurt me to the
    |||||| bone to discover that a friend of mine had opinions so different
    |||||| from mine about a subject which is very important to me.
    |||||| Anyway, I am trying to find neutral (non-semetic) references on
    |||||| the internet which might enlighten him.
    |||||| Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    ||||||
    |||||| TIA,
    |||||| Arawak
    Robert de Brus, Oct 17, 2003
    #10
  11. Arawak

    Scribner Guest

    Re: HISTORIANS - I need proof the german people were guilty of the holocaust

    On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 21:21:17 +1000, "Robert de Brus" <de_brus@h o t m
    a i l.com> wrote:

    >X-No-Archive: Yes
    >
    >In news:,
    >Scribner <walter3ca@no_spam_yahoo.com> typed
    >|| I seem to remember that Hitler was democratically elected by the
    >|| German people. He was an Austrian citizen, but through a loophole
    >
    >So have been many idiots
    >
    >|| (minor political appointment) he obtained German citizenship. Then
    >|| he
    >|| was elected (first politician to fly) and then he took over
    >|| (liberated) the Ostreich (Austria). It has been put forth that the
    >|| large numbers of Austrians in the SS was due to their feelings of
    >|| inferiority to the Germans. Anyway, when Hitler came to power, all
    >|| of
    >|| the military forces, each individual soldier and sailor, swore an
    >|| oath
    >|| of personal allegiance to Adolf Hitler (2 Aug. 1934). The oath ran:
    >|| ""I swear by almighty God this sacred oath: I will render
    >|| unconditional obedience
    >|| to the Fuehrer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler,
    >|| Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht, and, as a brave soldier,
    >|| I will be ready at any time to stake my life for this oath." The
    >
    >No soldier has ever lied. No German has ever lied under oath. Nobody has
    >ever taken an oath for the sake of a job or because they were drafded
    >(forced to).


    Didn't Canaris lie and break his oath to Hitler on numerous occasions?
    Oh, right. He was a sailor.
    >
    >|| Hitler Jung also had to swear a similar oath on an annual basis. The
    >|| military oath was subsequently taken by each soldier or sailor as
    >
    >Kids, many pre pubescent, who knew what it was all about, none of who were
    >brainwashed with propaganda.


    Really. Based upon what evidence?
    >
    >|| they entered military service. So, if Hitler was a Nazi (I think
    >|| that his membership number was #5), and the military and youth swore
    >|| an oath of unconditional obedience to him, then they should probably
    >|| be
    >|| considered Nazis, also. Then there are the common people who
    >
    >What a absolutely st00pid conclusion
    >
    >|| popularly elected him. They can't claim ignorance because his
    >
    >He was elected by the German people because they knew he was going to murder
    >6,000,000 jewish men, women, and children.


    They did? Then why was "The Final Solution" kept such a secret?
    Funny. The Germans knew, and the Jews didn't. Silly Jews.

    >
    >|| blueprint, "Mein Kamph" came out before he was elected Chancellor.
    >|| Between the military and the voters (not to mention the loyal Party
    >|| members, and the SA) that should be a pretty fair chunk of the
    >|| population. That chunk gets even better if you eliminate (no pun
    >|| intended) from the population everyone who was put into a
    >|| concentration camp or simply executed. As for the part of ignorance,
    >|| every "good" German family had a Bible and "Mein Kamph" (unless you
    >
    >To prove they were good Germans in case the Nazis came a knockin'


    Like a book will dissuade the Gestapo.
    >
    >|| were part of the SS or SD, then there was supposed to be no Bible).
    >
    >Why? Even the SS oath mentions God, even though they were not supposed to
    >believe.


    Ask Himmler.
    >
    >|| They were also supposed to have read "Mein Kamph." If they couldn't
    >|| figure out the ramifications of "Liebestraum" then they were idiots.
    >||
    >||
    >|| On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:22:19 GMT, Arawak <> wrote:
    >||
    >||| My mistake, I thought the Nazis were Germans except for their
    >||| Austrian leader.
    >||| So if we as a people witness genocide within our own borders and
    >||| although, diametrically opposed, do nothing but look the other way
    >||| due
    >||| to fear of retribution then we must be considered innocent in
    >||| hindsight? That must be a christian charity I missed.
    >||| Anyway, I was not looking to argue semantics, just getting
    >||| references
    >||| which a few others were kind enough to provide.
    >||| I value your opinion and realize there will always be different
    >||| interpretation of history.
    >|||
    >||| On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:48:34 +1000, "Robert de Brus" <de_brus@h o t
    >||| m
    >||| a i l.com> wrote:
    >|||
    >|||| X-No-Archive: Yes
    >||||
    >|||| In news:,
    >|||| Arawak <> typed
    >|||||| Let me preface this message by saying I love travelling to
    >|||||| Germany
    >|||||| and have many german acquaintances.
    >|||||| I have a friend who graduated from ASU and who also represents
    >|||||| the
    >|||||| U.S. on our olympic team. He is married to a colleague of mine
    >|||||| and on
    >|||||| a recent cruise, I was shocked to hear him claim that he had
    >|||||| studied WWII extensively and knew as a fact that most germans
    >|||||| were unaware of the holocaust and innocent of the crimes they
    >|||||| were accused of,
    >||||
    >|||| What crimes? Who said the Germans committed the holocaust?
    >||
    >|| Well, let's see. The crematoriums were designed and patented by the
    >|| Germans. The soldiers who guarded the death camps were from either
    >
    >By *all* Germans, or just a few?


    The people are responsible for what was done in their name.
    >
    >|| Germany or Austria (which was absorbed into Germany before the war).
    >
    >Ummm, not entirely true. In fact many guards in camps outside of Germany
    >were captured locals.


    I didn't say every guard. I was just establishing a connection.
    >
    >|| The gold, and other material, gleaned from the victims of the
    >|| Holocaust ended up in German bank vaults. Oh, and the surviving
    >
    >Ummm, Swiss actually


    That happened only near the end of the war and the accounts were
    private. In the beginning, the vaults were German.

    >
    >|| eyewitness death camp survivors who said that the Germans did.
    >
    >Again, would that be *all* Germans, or just the ones these people knew
    >about?
    >

    Once again, it was a crime committed by the state. The state
    represents the people. Who were punished for World War I? The
    people, through the state, by the Treaty of Versailles. Just as it
    was established at Nurnberg that following orders is not a defense, a
    citizen cannot obviate his or her collective guilt by establishing no
    direct personal knowledge or participation. Hitler was elected by the
    people. He acted in their name. Had he succeeded, they would have
    reaped the bounty. His failure was their failure.

    >
    >Where are you from, I'd like to accuse you of an attrocity by association.
    >Numbskull!
    >
    >||
    >||
    >||
    >||||
    >|||| I thought it was the Nazis who committed the holocaust???
    >||||
    >|||| I mean, it's like saying that the wehrmacht were nazis when, in
    >|||| fact, they were simply soldiers fighting for their country. Sure,
    >|||| some were nazis, but they were more often than not transferred to
    >|||| elite regiments where they could kill unarmed civilians and
    >|||| children.
    >||
    >|| True, more blatant atrocities were probably carried out by the SS,
    >|| but
    >|| if you consider the fact that WW II began by the German military
    >|| being attacked by dead Germans dressed in Polish uniforms (Operation
    >|| Canned Goods), then the war itself was an unprovoked act of
    >|| aggression
    >|| carried out by the regular forces. Which is a greater atrocity,
    >|| killing the civilian population of a town (SS) or attacking defending
    >|| soldiers armed with lances and mounted on horseback with tanks
    >|| (Wehrmacht). Oh, I forgot the Air Force's little tactic of forcing
    >|| civilians onto the roads so that the defending military couldn't send
    >|| forward needed military units. The Reich military were not fighting
    >|| for The Fatherland. They were fighting for Adolf Hitler PERSONALLY.
    >||||
    >|||| Certainly there were a lot of civilians who were nazis, but
    >|||| equally there were many who were diametrically opposed, but said
    >|||| nothing for fear of retribution.
    >||
    >|| I find it doubtful if the number of free Germans who were against
    >|| Hitler's policies on June 1, 1940 (when Hitler was winning - it is
    >|| easy to be against him when he is losing) was greater than the total
    >|| German population killed or incarcerated by the Nazis from 1936 to
    >|| 1945. Remember, they were "knifed in the back" and lost WW I. Then
    >|| they had the Treaty of Versailles, the loss of the Ruhr Valley, and
    >|| the Depression to deal with. They were the ultimate underdogs, in
    >|| their eyes. So to finally be able to stick it to those who had been
    >|| sticking it to them felt damn good. They had jobs, military success,
    >|| and a chance at an Empire. What was there not to love?
    >||||
    >|||||| When I tried to argue the point, I realized I had no definitive
    >|||||| reference to provide him as proof and immediately changed the
    >|||||| subject to preserve our friendship as he was getting red in the
    >|||||| face and
    >|||||| quite argumentative. Although my grandmother was on one of the
    >|||||| 1st ships which was turned away from N.Y. (since the U.S. was
    >|||||| not yet in the war), ending up in Jamaica, I supressed my anger
    >|||||| during this conversation but I have to admit it hurt me to the
    >|||||| bone to discover that a friend of mine had opinions so different
    >|||||| from mine about a subject which is very important to me.
    >|||||| Anyway, I am trying to find neutral (non-semetic) references on
    >|||||| the internet which might enlighten him.
    >|||||| Any suggestions would be appreciated.
    >||||||
    >|||||| TIA,
    >|||||| Arawak
    >
    >
    Scribner, Oct 17, 2003
    #11
  12. Re: HISTORIANS - I need proof the german people were guilty of the holocaust

    X-No-Archive: Yes

    In news:,
    Scribner <walter3ca@no_spam_yahoo.com> typed
    || On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 21:21:17 +1000, "Robert de Brus" <de_brus@h o t m
    || a i l.com> wrote:
    ||
    ||| X-No-Archive: Yes
    |||
    ||| In news:,
    ||| Scribner <walter3ca@no_spam_yahoo.com> typed
    ||||| I seem to remember that Hitler was democratically elected by the
    ||||| German people. He was an Austrian citizen, but through a loophole
    |||
    ||| So have been many idiots
    |||
    ||||| (minor political appointment) he obtained German citizenship.
    ||||| Then
    ||||| he
    ||||| was elected (first politician to fly) and then he took over
    ||||| (liberated) the Ostreich (Austria). It has been put forth that
    ||||| the large numbers of Austrians in the SS was due to their
    ||||| feelings of inferiority to the Germans. Anyway, when Hitler came
    ||||| to power, all
    ||||| of
    ||||| the military forces, each individual soldier and sailor, swore an
    ||||| oath
    ||||| of personal allegiance to Adolf Hitler (2 Aug. 1934). The oath
    ||||| ran: ""I swear by almighty God this sacred oath: I will render
    ||||| unconditional obedience
    ||||| to the Fuehrer of the German Reich and people, Adolf Hitler,
    ||||| Supreme Commander of the Wehrmacht, and, as a brave soldier,
    ||||| I will be ready at any time to stake my life for this oath." The
    |||
    ||| No soldier has ever lied. No German has ever lied under oath.
    ||| Nobody has ever taken an oath for the sake of a job or because they
    ||| were drafded (forced to).
    ||
    || Didn't Canaris lie and break his oath to Hitler on numerous
    || occasions?
    || Oh, right. He was a sailor.

    Are you serious??

    Are you actually reading the post or just making it up as you go?

    Do I have to *S P E L L* it out for you?

    My comment was sarcasm, and you have just gone against what you said, and
    backed up my own sentiments.

    |||
    ||||| Hitler Jung also had to swear a similar oath on an annual basis.
    ||||| The military oath was subsequently taken by each soldier or
    ||||| sailor as
    |||
    ||| Kids, many pre pubescent, who knew what it was all about, none of
    ||| who were brainwashed with propaganda.
    ||
    || Really. Based upon what evidence?

    No evidence needed, it's a *sarcastic* remark.

    Once again you've opposed what you said and agreed with *me*

    |||
    ||||| they entered military service. So, if Hitler was a Nazi (I think
    ||||| that his membership number was #5), and the military and youth
    ||||| swore
    ||||| an oath of unconditional obedience to him, then they should
    ||||| probably
    ||||| be
    ||||| considered Nazis, also. Then there are the common people who
    |||
    ||| What a absolutely st00pid conclusion
    |||
    ||||| popularly elected him. They can't claim ignorance because his
    |||
    ||| He was elected by the German people because they knew he was going
    ||| to murder 6,000,000 jewish men, women, and children.
    ||
    || They did? Then why was "The Final Solution" kept such a secret?
    || Funny. The Germans knew, and the Jews didn't. Silly Jews.

    As above.

    You really need to start reading between the lines, *and* remembering what
    *you* have previously said.

    ||
    |||
    ||||| blueprint, "Mein Kamph" came out before he was elected Chancellor.
    ||||| Between the military and the voters (not to mention the loyal
    ||||| Party members, and the SA) that should be a pretty fair chunk of
    ||||| the population. That chunk gets even better if you eliminate
    ||||| (no pun intended) from the population everyone who was put into a
    ||||| concentration camp or simply executed. As for the part of
    ||||| ignorance, every "good" German family had a Bible and "Mein
    ||||| Kamph" (unless you
    |||
    ||| To prove they were good Germans in case the Nazis came a knockin'
    ||
    || Like a book will dissuade the Gestapo.

    oh deah...

    |||
    ||||| were part of the SS or SD, then there was supposed to be no
    ||||| Bible).
    |||
    ||| Why? Even the SS oath mentions God, even though they were not
    ||| supposed to believe.
    ||
    || Ask Himmler.

    Ask Himler what?

    |||
    ||||| They were also supposed to have read "Mein Kamph." If they
    ||||| couldn't figure out the ramifications of "Liebestraum" then they
    ||||| were idiots.
    |||||
    |||||
    ||||| On Fri, 17 Oct 2003 05:22:19 GMT, Arawak <>
    ||||| wrote:
    |||||
    |||||| My mistake, I thought the Nazis were Germans except for their
    |||||| Austrian leader.
    |||||| So if we as a people witness genocide within our own borders and
    |||||| although, diametrically opposed, do nothing but look the other
    |||||| way
    |||||| due
    |||||| to fear of retribution then we must be considered innocent in
    |||||| hindsight? That must be a christian charity I missed.
    |||||| Anyway, I was not looking to argue semantics, just getting
    |||||| references
    |||||| which a few others were kind enough to provide.
    |||||| I value your opinion and realize there will always be different
    |||||| interpretation of history.
    ||||||
    |||||| On Thu, 16 Oct 2003 20:48:34 +1000, "Robert de Brus" <de_brus@h
    |||||| o t
    |||||| m
    |||||| a i l.com> wrote:
    ||||||
    ||||||| X-No-Archive: Yes
    |||||||
    ||||||| In news:,
    ||||||| Arawak <> typed
    ||||||||| Let me preface this message by saying I love travelling to
    ||||||||| Germany
    ||||||||| and have many german acquaintances.
    ||||||||| I have a friend who graduated from ASU and who also represents
    ||||||||| the
    ||||||||| U.S. on our olympic team. He is married to a colleague of mine
    ||||||||| and on
    ||||||||| a recent cruise, I was shocked to hear him claim that he had
    ||||||||| studied WWII extensively and knew as a fact that most germans
    ||||||||| were unaware of the holocaust and innocent of the crimes they
    ||||||||| were accused of,
    |||||||
    ||||||| What crimes? Who said the Germans committed the holocaust?
    |||||
    ||||| Well, let's see. The crematoriums were designed and patented by
    ||||| the Germans. The soldiers who guarded the death camps were from
    ||||| either
    |||
    ||| By *all* Germans, or just a few?
    ||
    || The people are responsible for what was done in their name.

    So *all* Muslims are responsible for 9/11 and Bali, and nemerous other
    barbaric acts?

    Remember that these things were done in the name of Allah, whoever the ****
    he is when he's at home.

    |||
    ||||| Germany or Austria (which was absorbed into Germany before the
    ||||| war).
    |||
    ||| Ummm, not entirely true. In fact many guards in camps outside of
    ||| Germany were captured locals.
    ||
    || I didn't say every guard. I was just establishing a connection.

    Yes you did!

    "The soldiers who guarded the death camps were from either Germany or
    Austria (which was absorbed into Germany before the war)."

    |||
    ||||| The gold, and other material, gleaned from the victims of the
    ||||| Holocaust ended up in German bank vaults. Oh, and the surviving
    |||
    ||| Ummm, Swiss actually
    ||
    || That happened only near the end of the war and the accounts were
    || private. In the beginning, the vaults were German.

    Near the end of the war wasn't during the war?

    Whatever.

    ||
    |||
    ||||| eyewitness death camp survivors who said that the Germans did.
    |||
    ||| Again, would that be *all* Germans, or just the ones these people
    ||| knew about?
    |||
    || Once again, it was a crime committed by the state. The state

    No, it was committed by fanatics

    || represents the people. Who were punished for World War I? The
    || people, through the state, by the Treaty of Versailles. Just as it
    || was established at Nurnberg that following orders is not a defense, a
    || citizen cannot obviate his or her collective guilt by establishing no
    || direct personal knowledge or participation. Hitler was elected by
    || the people. He acted in their name. Had he succeeded, they would
    || have
    || reaped the bounty. His failure was their failure.

    So why weren't the German people on trial at Nurnberg? Why weren't the
    German people executed?

    Was anyone found to be not guilty? Remember that by your logic that would be
    *impossible*

    ||
    |||
    ||| Where are you from, I'd like to accuse you of an attrocity by
    ||| association. Numbskull!

    You forgot to answer my above question.

    I'd like to know where you're from so I can call you a murderer and accuse
    you of obcene atrocities simply because someone from your place of origin
    was guilty of such crimes, which make you guilty as well.
    Robert de Brus, Oct 18, 2003
    #12
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