OT: GRRRR! Bloody Telecom.

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by ~misfit~, Apr 7, 2006.

  1. ~misfit~

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Just got my bill. It had $7.50 late payment fee for last month. Yet I made
    sure the bill was paid by the end of the month. A quick check of their own
    website showed that my payment was processed by them on 31st and in fact my
    account was in credit on the billing day (1st of the month).

    I rang them and, after a lot of button pushing and a wait, "George" answered
    and checked, only at my insistance, and agreed to remove the late payment
    fee. I asked him how it can happen, he said "Its the folks in accounting". I
    said I was asking as I worried in case it was happening to others and they
    weren't noticing. He said, "No, they notice, we get quite a few
    phone-calls". He didn't seem to see the irony of it. That (IMO) for eveyone
    that noticed there were probably 2 that didn't.

    I didn't get an apology and the guy was quite curt, pissed me off. I told
    him that, if they were going to charge a late payment fee, they should give
    an early payment discount. As I was in credit at the end of the billing
    cycle then surely, by their own standards, they should give me a $7.50 early
    payment discount. Of course it was never going to fly but, man, I was
    annoyed. No apology, nothing. Almost resentment in fact that I had the cheek
    to question them.

    I'm going to ring them back and cancel the $2.53 a month wire maintenance
    contract. **** 'em.
    --
    ~Shaun~
     
    ~misfit~, Apr 7, 2006
    #1
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  2. ~misfit~

    Alan Guest

    Re: GRRRR! Bloody Telecom.

    "~misfit~" <> wrote in message
    news:4435e822$...
    > Just got my bill. It had $7.50 late payment fee for last month. Yet
    > I made sure the bill was paid by the end of the month. A quick check
    > of their own website showed that my payment was processed by them on
    > 31st and in fact my account was in credit on the billing day (1st of
    > the month).
    >
    > I rang them and, after a lot of button pushing and a wait, "George"
    > answered and checked, only at my insistance, and agreed to remove
    > the late payment fee. I asked him how it can happen, he said "Its
    > the folks in accounting". I said I was asking as I worried in case
    > it was happening to others and they weren't noticing. He said, "No,
    > they notice, we get quite a few phone-calls". He didn't seem to see
    > the irony of it. That (IMO) for eveyone that noticed there were
    > probably 2 that didn't.
    >
    > I didn't get an apology and the guy was quite curt, pissed me off. I
    > told him that, if they were going to charge a late payment fee, they
    > should give an early payment discount. As I was in credit at the end
    > of the billing cycle then surely, by their own standards, they
    > should give me a $7.50 early payment discount. Of course it was
    > never going to fly but, man, I was annoyed. No apology, nothing.
    > Almost resentment in fact that I had the cheek to question them.
    >
    > I'm going to ring them back and cancel the $2.53 a month wire
    > maintenance contract. **** 'em.
    > --
    > ~Shaun~
    >


    Sounds like a Fair Go story to me - how many of you out there mght
    have been affected like this?

    --

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    Alan, Apr 7, 2006
    #2
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  3. ~misfit~

    Vista Guest

    Re: GRRRR! Bloody Telecom.

    "~misfit~" <> wrote in message
    news:4435e822$...
    > Just got my bill. It had $7.50 late payment fee for last month. Yet I made
    > sure the bill was paid by the end of the month. A quick check of their own
    > website showed that my payment was processed by them on 31st and in fact
    > my account was in credit on the billing day (1st of the month).
    >
    > I rang them and, after a lot of button pushing and a wait, "George"
    > answered and checked, only at my insistance, and agreed to remove the late
    > payment fee. I asked him how it can happen, he said "Its the folks in
    > accounting". I said I was asking as I worried in case it was happening to
    > others and they weren't noticing. He said, "No, they notice, we get quite
    > a few phone-calls". He didn't seem to see the irony of it. That (IMO) for
    > eveyone that noticed there were probably 2 that didn't.
    >
    > I didn't get an apology and the guy was quite curt, pissed me off. I told
    > him that, if they were going to charge a late payment fee, they should
    > give an early payment discount. As I was in credit at the end of the
    > billing cycle then surely, by their own standards, they should give me a
    > $7.50 early payment discount. Of course it was never going to fly but,
    > man, I was annoyed. No apology, nothing. Almost resentment in fact that I
    > had the cheek to question them.
    >
    > I'm going to ring them back and cancel the $2.53 a month wire maintenance
    > contract. **** 'em.
    > --
    > ~Shaun~
    >


    You should have asked them to give you a credit for your time being wasted,
    especially if they admitted it was a common accounting problem. If it was a
    genuine accounting mistake ok, but if they are being flippant about it, it
    is pretty poor performance. A pity there is no competition.
     
    Vista, Apr 7, 2006
    #3
  4. ~misfit~

    Gordon Guest

    On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:18:57 +1200, ~misfit~ wrote:

    > Just got my bill. It had $7.50 late payment fee for last month. Yet I made
    > sure the bill was paid by the end of the month. A quick check of their own
    > website showed that my payment was processed by them on 31st and in fact my
    > account was in credit on the billing day (1st of the month).
    >

    [snip story of Telecom acting like a monolopy]

    Ah looks like Telecom have not improved their accounting practices. One of
    the reasons I decided that they were better out of my wallet.

    > I'm going to ring them back and cancel the $2.53 a month wire maintenance
    > contract. **** 'em.


    You first ;-)

    Personally I think this is a rip off, a bit like extended warranties. The
    company pushes it so, who do you think it is good for?
     
    Gordon, Apr 7, 2006
    #4
  5. ~misfit~

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Gordon wrote:
    > On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:18:57 +1200, ~misfit~ wrote:
    >
    >> Just got my bill. It had $7.50 late payment fee for last month. Yet
    >> I made sure the bill was paid by the end of the month. A quick check
    >> of their own website showed that my payment was processed by them on
    >> 31st and in fact my account was in credit on the billing day (1st of
    >> the month).
    >>

    > [snip story of Telecom acting like a monolopy]
    >
    > Ah looks like Telecom have not improved their accounting practices.
    > One of the reasons I decided that they were better out of my wallet.
    >
    >> I'm going to ring them back and cancel the $2.53 a month wire
    >> maintenance contract. **** 'em.

    >
    > You first ;-)
    >
    > Personally I think this is a rip off, a bit like extended warranties.
    > The company pushes it so, who do you think it is good for?


    More than push it. They include it unasked. The only way to *not* pay it is
    to specifically request they stop billing you for it. Not a lot of people
    know that you can even do that.

    I don't even know the advantage of it (if there is one) anyway. When I had
    trouble and a telecom tech came around I was warned that if there was a
    fault found with my wiring I'd get charged a minimum of <guess as I can't
    remember> $65. So what does this wire maintenance contract do anyway? Sweet
    FA from the sounds of it. And I've been paying it for about 25 years. Eeek!
    That's ~$760 for nothing. I must ask for a refund.
    --
    ~Shaun~
     
    ~misfit~, Apr 7, 2006
    #5
  6. ~misfit~

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Re: GRRRR! Bloody Telecom.

    ~misfit~ wrote:

    > I'm going to ring them back and cancel the $2.53 a month wire
    > maintenance contract. **** 'em.


    Rang back and cancelled it, spoke to a nice woman by the name of Riley. I
    explained why I was cancelling it and she apologised on behalf of Telecom
    for the other guy's rudeness. I asked her to log a customer complaint about
    his demeanour. She said she would. The guy was an arrogant prick. I guess he
    has Telecom shares and was upset that I'd noticed one of their rip-off
    schemes.
    --
    ~Shaun~
     
    ~misfit~, Apr 7, 2006
    #6
  7. ~misfit~

    Vista Guest

    "~misfit~" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Gordon wrote:
    >> On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 16:18:57 +1200, ~misfit~ wrote:
    >>
    >>> Just got my bill. It had $7.50 late payment fee for last month. Yet
    >>> I made sure the bill was paid by the end of the month. A quick check
    >>> of their own website showed that my payment was processed by them on
    >>> 31st and in fact my account was in credit on the billing day (1st of
    >>> the month).
    >>>

    >> [snip story of Telecom acting like a monolopy]
    >>
    >> Ah looks like Telecom have not improved their accounting practices.
    >> One of the reasons I decided that they were better out of my wallet.
    >>
    >>> I'm going to ring them back and cancel the $2.53 a month wire
    >>> maintenance contract. **** 'em.

    >>
    >> You first ;-)
    >>
    >> Personally I think this is a rip off, a bit like extended warranties.
    >> The company pushes it so, who do you think it is good for?

    >
    > More than push it. They include it unasked. The only way to *not* pay it
    > is to specifically request they stop billing you for it. Not a lot of
    > people know that you can even do that.
    >
    > I don't even know the advantage of it (if there is one) anyway. When I had
    > trouble and a telecom tech came around I was warned that if there was a
    > fault found with my wiring I'd get charged a minimum of <guess as I can't
    > remember> $65. So what does this wire maintenance contract do anyway?
    > Sweet FA from the sounds of it. And I've been paying it for about 25
    > years. Eeek! That's ~$760 for nothing. I must ask for a refund.
    > --
    > ~Shaun~
    >



    It would definately cover the cost of fixing the fault. The tech was wrong
    to say that you would be charged. They tried this on me too, until I asked
    with hte wiring fee was supposed to cover. I guess unlike Telecom, they
    assume that people don't have the wiring fee. Sounds like Telecom are
    winning both ways. Could be one for Fair go, although they have covered it
    before.
     
    Vista, Apr 7, 2006
    #7
  8. ~misfit~

    Vista Guest

    Re: GRRRR! Bloody Telecom.

    "~misfit~" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > ~misfit~ wrote:
    >
    >> I'm going to ring them back and cancel the $2.53 a month wire
    >> maintenance contract. **** 'em.

    >
    > Rang back and cancelled it, spoke to a nice woman by the name of Riley. I
    > explained why I was cancelling it and she apologised on behalf of Telecom
    > for the other guy's rudeness. I asked her to log a customer complaint
    > about his demeanour. She said she would. The guy was an arrogant prick. I
    > guess he has Telecom shares and was upset that I'd noticed one of their
    > rip-off schemes.
    > --
    > ~Shaun~
    >


    Shares have increased a lot over the last few weeks. They were as low as
    5.25 a few weeks ago but now at 5.8#.
     
    Vista, Apr 7, 2006
    #8
  9. ~misfit~

    Gavin Tunney Guest

    On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:18:57 +1200, "~misfit~"
    <> wrote:

    >Just got my bill. It had $7.50 late payment fee for last month. Yet I made
    >sure the bill was paid by the end of the month. A quick check of their own
    >website showed that my payment was processed by them on 31st and in fact my
    >account was in credit on the billing day (1st of the month).
    >
    >I rang them and, after a lot of button pushing and a wait, "George" answered
    >and checked, only at my insistance, and agreed to remove the late payment
    >fee. I asked him how it can happen, he said "Its the folks in accounting". I
    >said I was asking as I worried in case it was happening to others and they
    >weren't noticing. He said, "No, they notice, we get quite a few
    >phone-calls". He didn't seem to see the irony of it. That (IMO) for eveyone
    >that noticed there were probably 2 that didn't.
    >
    >I didn't get an apology and the guy was quite curt, pissed me off. I told
    >him that, if they were going to charge a late payment fee, they should give
    >an early payment discount. As I was in credit at the end of the billing
    >cycle then surely, by their own standards, they should give me a $7.50 early
    >payment discount. Of course it was never going to fly but, man, I was
    >annoyed. No apology, nothing. Almost resentment in fact that I had the cheek
    >to question them.
    >
    >I'm going to ring them back and cancel the $2.53 a month wire maintenance
    >contract. **** 'em.


    Is it $7.50 now... was $6 last time I got hit. I was getting whacked
    twice at one stage, had separate ph & mobile bills. You could try
    taking them to the Small Claims Court...if you can be bothered. By law
    Telecom can only charge a 'reasonable' fee that bears some
    relationship with their cost of financing. $7.50 isn't big bucks but
    it probably is an unreasonable sum in that regard.

    It may be illegal anyway, being an arbitrary number it would likely
    constitute a fine or penalty rather than a financial charge. Was an
    article on Fairgo a while back where Wilson Parking were giving people
    parking tickets if their pay & display voucher had expired. According
    to the Consumer guy they interviewed it's illegal for private parties
    to fine people & Wilsons couldn't enforce their 'tickets'. Would be
    interesting to see a legal test of Telecoms late payment penalty....
    feel like being a hero? ;-)

    GT
     
    Gavin Tunney, Apr 7, 2006
    #9
  10. ~misfit~

    colinco Guest

    In article ~misfit~ says...
    > And I've been paying it for about 25 years. Eeek!
    > That's ~$760 for nothing. I must ask for a refund.
    >
    >

    Get over yourself. The maintenance fee only got separated out of the
    rental when the wiring was deeded to the householder. That would have
    been after Telecom was created.
     
    colinco, Apr 7, 2006
    #10
  11. ~misfit~

    Richard Guest

    Vista wrote:

    > It would definately cover the cost of fixing the fault. The tech was wrong
    > to say that you would be charged. They tried this on me too, until I asked
    > with hte wiring fee was supposed to cover. I guess unlike Telecom, they
    > assume that people don't have the wiring fee. Sounds like Telecom are
    > winning both ways. Could be one for Fair go, although they have covered it
    > before.


    And, if your line gets disconnected and then reconnected then you get the damn
    thing stuck back on again, without asking for it.
     
    Richard, Apr 7, 2006
    #11
  12. ~misfit~

    Ross Guest

    On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 19:29:14 +1200, "~misfit~"
    <> wrote:

    >>> I'm going to ring them back and cancel the $2.53 a month wire
    >>> maintenance contract. **** 'em.

    >>
    >> You first ;-)
    >>
    >> Personally I think this is a rip off, a bit like extended warranties.
    >> The company pushes it so, who do you think it is good for?

    >
    >More than push it. They include it unasked. The only way to *not* pay it is
    >to specifically request they stop billing you for it. Not a lot of people
    >know that you can even do that.
    >
    >I don't even know the advantage of it (if there is one) anyway. When I had
    >trouble and a telecom tech came around I was warned that if there was a
    >fault found with my wiring I'd get charged a minimum of <guess as I can't
    >remember> $65. So what does this wire maintenance contract do anyway? Sweet
    >FA from the sounds of it. And I've been paying it for about 25 years. Eeek!
    >That's ~$760 for nothing. I must ask for a refund.


    Heh! Cancelled my wiring contract 15 yrs ago.
     
    Ross, Apr 7, 2006
    #12
  13. Re: GRRRR! Bloody Telecom.

    On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 20:01:13 +1200, someone purporting to be Vista didst
    scrawl:

    >
    > "~misfit~" <> wrote in message
    > news:...

    *SNIP*
    > Shares have increased a lot over the last few weeks. They were as low as
    > 5.25 a few weeks ago but now at 5.8#.


    The market seems to have a lot of (misplaced, IMO) confidence in the
    security of Telecon's future. Their EPS yesterday was 187!

    --
    Matthew Poole
    "Don't use force. Get a bigger hammer."
     
    Matthew Poole, Apr 7, 2006
    #13
  14. Vista wrote:
    >
    > It would definately cover the cost of fixing the fault. The tech was wrong
    > to say that you would be charged. They tried this on me too, until I asked
    > with hte wiring fee was supposed to cover. I guess unlike Telecom, they
    > assume that people don't have the wiring fee. Sounds like Telecom are
    > winning both ways. Could be one for Fair go, although they have covered it
    > before.


    Once I was having a battle at work trying to get a distance student
    online as her phone line had a huge noise problem. I told her to call
    Telecom. She called back to say that Telecom said that because she has a
    computer, they won't look at the line for free (because the computer
    could be causing the problem). I said to unplug the computer from the
    phone socket, tell them the computer's unplugged and to listen on the
    phone and they'll hear then noise themselves. She called back to say
    they still won't look at the line because she has a computer *in the
    house*, but they did agree that phone line sounded noisy and they had
    sympathy. I said to lie and say you don't have a computer, and to put it
    in the closet if they come around. I don't think she ever did get online.

    It's second hand information, I don't know if she was relaying what they
    said correctly to me, but the whole deal made me laugh *hard* despite
    feeling sorry for this poor beneficiary trying to better herself. She
    wasn't prevented from doing her course, she just had to put her files on
    a floppy disk and post them in an envelope (which isn't nearly the same
    experience a student with email enjoys).
     
    I'm A Trampoline, Apr 7, 2006
    #14
  15. ~misfit~

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Gavin Tunney wrote:
    > On Fri, 7 Apr 2006 16:18:57 +1200, "~misfit~"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> Just got my bill. It had $7.50 late payment fee for last month. Yet
    >> I made sure the bill was paid by the end of the month. A quick check
    >> of their own website showed that my payment was processed by them on
    >> 31st and in fact my account was in credit on the billing day (1st of
    >> the month).
    >>
    >> I rang them and, after a lot of button pushing and a wait, "George"
    >> answered and checked, only at my insistance, and agreed to remove
    >> the late payment fee. I asked him how it can happen, he said "Its
    >> the folks in accounting". I said I was asking as I worried in case
    >> it was happening to others and they weren't noticing. He said, "No,
    >> they notice, we get quite a few phone-calls". He didn't seem to see
    >> the irony of it. That (IMO) for eveyone that noticed there were
    >> probably 2 that didn't.
    >>
    >> I didn't get an apology and the guy was quite curt, pissed me off. I
    >> told him that, if they were going to charge a late payment fee, they
    >> should give an early payment discount. As I was in credit at the end
    >> of the billing cycle then surely, by their own standards, they
    >> should give me a $7.50 early payment discount. Of course it was
    >> never going to fly but, man, I was annoyed. No apology, nothing.
    >> Almost resentment in fact that I had the cheek to question them.
    >>
    >> I'm going to ring them back and cancel the $2.53 a month wire
    >> maintenance contract. **** 'em.

    >
    > Is it $7.50 now... was $6 last time I got hit. I was getting whacked
    > twice at one stage, had separate ph & mobile bills. You could try
    > taking them to the Small Claims Court...if you can be bothered. By law
    > Telecom can only charge a 'reasonable' fee that bears some
    > relationship with their cost of financing. $7.50 isn't big bucks but
    > it probably is an unreasonable sum in that regard.
    >
    > It may be illegal anyway, being an arbitrary number it would likely
    > constitute a fine or penalty rather than a financial charge. Was an
    > article on Fairgo a while back where Wilson Parking were giving people
    > parking tickets if their pay & display voucher had expired. According
    > to the Consumer guy they interviewed it's illegal for private parties
    > to fine people & Wilsons couldn't enforce their 'tickets'. Would be
    > interesting to see a legal test of Telecoms late payment penalty....
    > feel like being a hero? ;-)


    Heh! I'd love to have a go at them. However, I fear legal advice would be
    needed and I have no money for that. :-(

    I couldn't get over how they had my payment showing on "Your Telecom" page
    and yet still charged me the fee, showing on Your Telecom. I mean, WTF??? It
    stinks of robbery to me. The info was all there on the web page, obviously
    incorrect.

    I've spoken to two Telecom people now, both of whom have assured me that the
    bill has been amended. Yet, when I log on to Your telecom, it still shows
    the incorrect amount owing. (Just checked again)

    I'll give them until Monday, then ring back. The problem is, they don't
    scare easy and the first guy I talked to acted like he didn't give a ****,
    was pissed off that I'd bothered him about $7.50. Thay act like they're
    doing you a favour just listening to you. (Most of them anyway, that chick
    Riley was cool, must be new).

    Cheers,
    --
    ~Shaun~
     
    ~misfit~, Apr 7, 2006
    #15
  16. ~misfit~

    ~misfit~ Guest

    colinco wrote:
    > In article ~misfit~ says...
    >> And I've been paying it for about 25 years. Eeek!
    >> That's ~$760 for nothing. I must ask for a refund.
    >>
    >>

    > Get over yourself. The maintenance fee only got separated out of the
    > rental when the wiring was deeded to the householder. That would have
    > been after Telecom was created.


    Do you have a problem with me? That's not the first time you've spoken to me
    like that. If you've got a problem come out and say it so I know how to
    treat you, don't **** about sniping from the fucking bushes.

    The first time I saw you talk to me like that I figured it was a mistake as
    you've always seemed ok. Good in fact. However....

    "Get over yourself"? Who the **** do you think you are? I live in Pukekohe,
    28 Frank Hewitt Street. Come around and say that to my face. Make it
    afternoon so my back isn't quite so sore if you can. If you can't, (or don't
    fancy taking me on at my "best", invalid that I am) no problem, I'll take
    the extra pain.

    Otherwise pull your fucking head in. Anyone can get all dominant on usenet,
    try that shit with me on my doorstep, or in the street, or give it a rest.

    Your call.
    --
    ~Shaun~
     
    ~misfit~, Apr 7, 2006
    #16
  17. ~misfit~

    Stu Fleming Guest

    ~misfit~ wrote:

    > I'll give them until Monday, then ring back. The problem is, they don't
    > scare easy and the first guy I talked to acted like he didn't give a ****,
    > was pissed off that I'd bothered him about $7.50. Thay act like they're
    > doing you a favour just listening to you. (Most of them anyway, that chick
    > Riley was cool, must be new).


    James on the Complex DNS Support help desk today gets kudos for telling
    me the serial numbers of a DNS record in the live and cached servers and
    knowing the difference between them.
     
    Stu Fleming, Apr 7, 2006
    #17
  18. ~misfit~

    colinco Guest

    In article ~misfit~ says...
    > colinco wrote:
    > > In article ~misfit~ says...
    > >> And I've been paying it for about 25 years. Eeek!
    > >> That's ~$760 for nothing. I must ask for a refund.
    > >>
    > >>

    > > Get over yourself. The maintenance fee only got separated out of the
    > > rental when the wiring was deeded to the householder. That would have
    > > been after Telecom was created.

    >
    > Do you have a problem with me? That's not the first time you've spoken to me
    > like that. If you've got a problem come out and say it so I know how to
    > treat you, don't **** about sniping from the fucking bushes.
    >

    No problem with you at all, only the exageration.
     
    colinco, Apr 7, 2006
    #18
  19. ~misfit~

    ~misfit~ Guest

    colinco wrote:
    > In article ~misfit~ says...
    >> colinco wrote:
    >>> In article ~misfit~ says...
    >>>> And I've been paying it for about 25 years. Eeek!
    >>>> That's ~$760 for nothing. I must ask for a refund.
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>> Get over yourself. The maintenance fee only got separated out of the
    >>> rental when the wiring was deeded to the householder. That would
    >>> have been after Telecom was created.

    >>
    >> Do you have a problem with me? That's not the first time you've
    >> spoken to me like that. If you've got a problem come out and say it
    >> so I know how to treat you, don't **** about sniping from the
    >> fucking bushes.
    >>

    > No problem with you at all, only the exageration.


    It wasn't intended to be an exaggeration. I didn't realise that I had only
    been paying it for 15 years instead of 25. I didn't even know you could opt
    out of it (as, I dare say most others don't) until about 5 years ago. I
    learnt about it from reading it on usenet. I indeed did opt out of it, than
    had my phone disconnected and had to pay $27 billion (That's a deliberate
    exaggeration) to get it re-"connected". They stuck it back on then.

    If you indeed have no problem with me then I respectfully suggest that you
    choose your "opening lines" more carefully. "Get over yourself" Is bloody
    rude. It implies that someone is (wrongly) self-important and egotistical,
    and, where I come from, is a serious insult. Fighting talk.

    Pax.
    --
    ~Shaun~
     
    ~misfit~, Apr 8, 2006
    #19
  20. Re: GRRRR! Bloody Telecom.

    In article <>, Matthew Poole <> wrote:
    >On Fri, 07 Apr 2006 20:01:13 +1200, someone purporting to be Vista didst
    >scrawl:


    >> "~misfit~" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...

    >*SNIP*
    >> Shares have increased a lot over the last few weeks. They were as low as
    >> 5.25 a few weeks ago but now at 5.8#.

    >
    >The market seems to have a lot of (misplaced, IMO) confidence in the
    >security of Telecon's future. Their EPS yesterday was 187!


    There has been some suggestion that the government won't regulate them
    because t/c shares are about 25 % of the share index and a sharp index fall
    is bad for business.

    I hope this is not so ... and hasten to add that I have never owned any t/c
    shares ... I keep hoping they'll be smacked down. Still waiting :)



    Bruce

    ----------------------------------------
    I believe you find life such a problem because you think there are the good
    people and the bad people. You're wrong, of course. There are, always and
    only, the bad people, but some of them are on opposite sides.

    Lord Vetinari in Guards ! Guards ! - Terry Pratchett

    Caution ===== followups may have been changed to relevant groups
    (if there were any)
     
    Bruce Sinclair, Apr 10, 2006
    #20
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