OT-GroundPepper

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by mark_digital©, Nov 6, 2006.

  1. I installed 6 freshly charged AAA batteries (niMH) in a new pepper mill. I
    was told it's a good idea to use them instead of use-once type batteries
    because they can provide better torque for an extended time. I simply wanted
    to avoid paying more for batteries than the peppercorns, and I didn't want
    leakage.
    The mill was a little on the expensive side but at least it doesn't leave
    pepper all over when it's put down. I picked it up at Bed Bath and Beyond.
    I'm thinking about getting another one to grind sea salt. So, am I doing the
    right thing by using rechargables?
    mark_
     
    mark_digital©, Nov 6, 2006
    #1
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  2. mark_digital©

    AustinMN Guest

    mark_digital© wrote:
    > I installed 6 freshly charged AAA batteries (niMH) in a new pepper mill. I
    > was told it's a good idea to use them instead of use-once type batteries
    > because they can provide better torque for an extended time. I simply wanted
    > to avoid paying more for batteries than the peppercorns, and I didn't want
    > leakage.
    > The mill was a little on the expensive side but at least it doesn't leave
    > pepper all over when it's put down. I picked it up at Bed Bath and Beyond.
    > I'm thinking about getting another one to grind sea salt. So, am I doing the
    > right thing by using rechargables?
    > mark_


    Only if you don't have the strength (or it is physically difficult or
    painful) to crank a non-battery powered grinder. Personally, I don't
    want NiMH (or any other batteries) risking leaking into my food.

    Austin
     
    AustinMN, Nov 6, 2006
    #2
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  3. mark_digital©

    Greg Guarino Guest

    On Mon, 6 Nov 2006 11:48:08 -0500, "mark_digital©"
    <> wrote:

    >I installed 6 freshly charged AAA batteries (niMH) in a new pepper mill. I
    >was told it's a good idea to use them instead of use-once type batteries
    >because they can provide better torque for an extended time. I simply wanted
    >to avoid paying more for batteries than the peppercorns, and I didn't want
    >leakage.
    >The mill was a little on the expensive side but at least it doesn't leave
    >pepper all over when it's put down. I picked it up at Bed Bath and Beyond.
    >I'm thinking about getting another one to grind sea salt. So, am I doing the
    >right thing by using rechargables?
    >mark_
    >

    I like pepper. A lot. I use an unreasonable amount of it on my food.
    My pepper grinder runs on a renewable energy source as well, which is
    derived mostly from starchy foods and stored in excess adipose tissue.
    No batteries needed.

    Greg Guarino
     
    Greg Guarino, Nov 6, 2006
    #3
  4. mark_digital©

    ASAAR Guest

    On Mon, 6 Nov 2006 11:48:08 -0500, mark_digital© wrote:

    > I installed 6 freshly charged AAA batteries (niMH) in a new pepper mill. I
    > was told it's a good idea to use them instead of use-once type batteries
    > because they can provide better torque for an extended time. I simply wanted
    > to avoid paying more for batteries than the peppercorns, and I didn't want
    > leakage.
    > The mill was a little on the expensive side but at least it doesn't leave
    > pepper all over when it's put down. I picked it up at Bed Bath and Beyond.
    > I'm thinking about getting another one to grind sea salt. So, am I doing the
    > right thing by using rechargables?


    Almost certainly NOT! All of the motor driven devices I've used
    continue operating reasonably even at fairly low voltages. If you
    can get 6 well used alkaline batteries that average about 0.8 volts
    each under load (total == 4.8 volts) you'll probably find that the
    pepper mill will continue to grind. Depending on the motor's design
    and gearing, you might not even notice much of a motor slowdown.
    Six NiMH batteries would initially provide 7.2 volts, and by the
    time the first battery goes flat the rest of the batteries would
    still be providing a bit less than 6.0 volts, enough to keep the
    motor spinning rapidly and to quickly permanently damage that first
    flat battery due to reverse charging it. Also, unless you're a very
    busy cook or chef, the batteries would probably need to be recharged
    every month or so to protect them from the reverse charge damage
    mentioned above. Even if not used, NiMH batteries have a fairly
    high self-discharge rate which is responsible for this. Both
    alkaline batteries and the new Sanyo Eneloop NiMH cells have such a
    low self discharge rate that it would cause no problem. Alkalines
    would need to be replaced only when the grinder's motor slows
    noticeably, and depending on how often you use the grinder it might
    be once every 6 months, year or two years (or more). Eneloops
    similarly might only need to be recharged every year or two, but
    they'd still present the same risk of reverse-charge cell damage.
    It would just take longer for them to get to the risky point than if
    standard, high self-discharge rate NiMH cells were used.
     
    ASAAR, Nov 6, 2006
    #4
  5. mark_digital©

    frederick Guest

    Greg Guarino wrote:
    > On Mon, 6 Nov 2006 11:48:08 -0500, "mark_digital©"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> I installed 6 freshly charged AAA batteries (niMH) in a new pepper mill. I
    >> was told it's a good idea to use them instead of use-once type batteries
    >> because they can provide better torque for an extended time. I simply wanted
    >> to avoid paying more for batteries than the peppercorns, and I didn't want
    >> leakage.
    >> The mill was a little on the expensive side but at least it doesn't leave
    >> pepper all over when it's put down. I picked it up at Bed Bath and Beyond.
    >> I'm thinking about getting another one to grind sea salt. So, am I doing the
    >> right thing by using rechargables?
    >> mark_
    >>

    > I like pepper. A lot. I use an unreasonable amount of it on my food.
    > My pepper grinder runs on a renewable energy source as well, which is
    > derived mostly from starchy foods and stored in excess adipose tissue.
    > No batteries needed.
    >
    > Greg Guarino


    Same here - it's a spice used at the table. There's something nice
    about using a good pepper grinder at the table. For salt, I prefer sea
    salt - either pre-ground in a pestle and mortar, or preferably the
    expensive flaky sea salt (Maldon), put in a small bowl on the table, and
    taken out in small pinches.
    I expect that the OP is American.
     
    frederick, Nov 6, 2006
    #5
  6. mark_digital©

    Jim Townsend Guest

    mark_digital© wrote:

    > The mill was a little on the expensive side but at least it doesn't leave
    > pepper all over when it's put down. I picked it up at Bed Bath and Beyond.
    > I'm thinking about getting another one to grind sea salt. So, am I doing the
    > right thing by using rechargables?


    I use rechargeables in ALL my electronic gadgets, (Except for a couple of
    IR remote controls for the TV etc which use AAA cells). I even use them
    in my little desktop battery powered pencil sharpener.
     
    Jim Townsend, Nov 6, 2006
    #6
  7. mark_digital©

    ASAAR Guest

    On Mon, 06 Nov 2006 14:32:16 -0600, Jim Townsend wrote:

    >> The mill was a little on the expensive side but at least it doesn't leave
    >> pepper all over when it's put down. I picked it up at Bed Bath and Beyond.
    >> I'm thinking about getting another one to grind sea salt. So, am I doing the
    >> right thing by using rechargables?

    >
    > I use rechargeables in ALL my electronic gadgets, (Except for a couple of
    > IR remote controls for the TV etc which use AAA cells). I even use them
    > in my little desktop battery powered pencil sharpener.


    Digital devices such as remotes are very unlikely to damage
    rechargeable batteries, at least the ones that use only two cells.
    I use alkalines in my remotes because the batteries usually last
    longer than two years, and having to recharge NiCd or NiMH batteries
    every couple of months wouldn't be as convenient as not having to
    worry about that when using alkalines. Is that why you also don't
    use rechargeables in them?

    Motor powered devices, on the other hand are much more likely to
    cause battery damage. The more batteries used, the greater the
    risk. If your pencil sharpener uses only two NiMH cells, it's
    probably unlikely to damage either of them. If it uses 4, it can
    easily damage at least one cell if you don't recharge the batteries
    frequently enough. I have a radio with a built-in cassette recorder
    that quickly ruined one of 4 NiCD D cells that it used when I
    wasn't around while it was recording. By examining the tape
    afterward I discovered that when the battery voltage dropped to the
    point that the radio powered off, the mechanical recording mechanism
    kept going for about another 15 minutes, at which point it reached
    the end of the tape and stopped. At some point during those 15
    minutes one of the D cells died. Permanently.

    The pepper mill uses 6 cells, further increasing the likelihood of
    battery damage. It's possible that the pepper mill was designed to
    minimize the risk of damage, such as if it uses batteries in some
    parallel configuration instead of the usual series circuit. But
    then it would have been much better (and simpler) if it had used 3
    AA cells instead of 6 AAAs.
     
    ASAAR, Nov 6, 2006
    #7
  8. "Jim Townsend" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > mark_digital© wrote:
    >
    >> The mill was a little on the expensive side but at least it doesn't leave
    >> pepper all over when it's put down. I picked it up at Bed Bath and
    >> Beyond.
    >> I'm thinking about getting another one to grind sea salt. So, am I doing
    >> the
    >> right thing by using rechargables?

    >
    > I use rechargeables in ALL my electronic gadgets, (Except for a couple of
    > IR remote controls for the TV etc which use AAA cells). I even use them
    > in my little desktop battery powered pencil sharpener.


    And the self-discharge time is OK?

    My experience with rechargeable alkalines is that they use themselves up in
    a month or so. For example, I just replaced two AA cells in my home
    thermostat ... no way in heck that I'd consider rechargeables in that
    application. Flashlights are another issue. Most folks use them
    infrequently, but would really like them to work when they need them
    (rechargeable alkalines suck in this case).

    I feel that regular alkalines are far better in many situations. To each
    his own.
     
    Charles Schuler, Nov 6, 2006
    #8
  9. mark_digital©

    Greg Guarino Guest

    On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 09:16:46 +1300, frederick <> wrote:

    >Greg Guarino wrote:
    >> On Mon, 6 Nov 2006 11:48:08 -0500, "mark_digital©"
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> I installed 6 freshly charged AAA batteries (niMH) in a new pepper mill. I
    >>> was told it's a good idea to use them instead of use-once type batteries


    >> I like pepper. A lot. I use an unreasonable amount of it on my food.
    >> My pepper grinder runs on a renewable energy source as well, which is
    >> derived mostly from starchy foods and stored in excess adipose tissue.
    >> No batteries needed.
    >>
    >> Greg Guarino

    >
    >Same here - it's a spice used at the table. There's something nice
    >about using a good pepper grinder at the table. For salt, I prefer sea
    >salt - either pre-ground in a pestle and mortar, or preferably the
    >expensive flaky sea salt (Maldon), put in a small bowl on the table, and
    >taken out in small pinches.
    >I expect that the OP is American.


    So am I.

    Greg Guarino
     
    Greg Guarino, Nov 6, 2006
    #9
  10. mark_digital©

    frederick Guest

    Greg Guarino wrote:
    > On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 09:16:46 +1300, frederick <> wrote:
    >
    >> Greg Guarino wrote:
    >>> On Mon, 6 Nov 2006 11:48:08 -0500, "mark_digital©"
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> I installed 6 freshly charged AAA batteries (niMH) in a new pepper mill. I
    >>>> was told it's a good idea to use them instead of use-once type batteries

    >
    >>> I like pepper. A lot. I use an unreasonable amount of it on my food.
    >>> My pepper grinder runs on a renewable energy source as well, which is
    >>> derived mostly from starchy foods and stored in excess adipose tissue.
    >>> No batteries needed.
    >>>
    >>> Greg Guarino

    >> Same here - it's a spice used at the table. There's something nice
    >> about using a good pepper grinder at the table. For salt, I prefer sea
    >> salt - either pre-ground in a pestle and mortar, or preferably the
    >> expensive flaky sea salt (Maldon), put in a small bowl on the table, and
    >> taken out in small pinches.
    >> I expect that the OP is American.

    >
    > So am I.
    >
    > Greg Guarino


    Perhaps being American doesn't mean that that you see electric pepper
    and salt grinders as useful, but seeing them as useful might mean that
    you're American?
     
    frederick, Nov 6, 2006
    #10
  11. mark_digital© wrote:

    > I installed 6 freshly charged AAA batteries (niMH) in a new pepper
    > mill. I was told it's a good idea to use them instead of use-once
    > type batteries because they can provide better torque for an extended
    > time. I simply wanted to avoid paying more for batteries than the
    > peppercorns, and I didn't want leakage.
    > The mill was a little on the expensive side but at least it doesn't
    > leave pepper all over when it's put down. I picked it up at Bed Bath
    > and Beyond. I'm thinking about getting another one to grind sea salt.
    > So, am I doing the right thing by using rechargables?


    For Christ's sake! Did I read right? Are you saying you use an electric
    grinder to grind peppercorns? This is by far the dumbest and most
    irresponsible thing one can do next to using an electric coffee mill to
    grind coffee. The intense heat from the friction destroys any flavors and
    aroma you had in the peppercorns. Always hand grind your peppercorns or buy
    that garbage McCormick sells.







    Rita
     
    =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rita_=C4_Berkowitz?=, Nov 6, 2006
    #11
  12. frederick wrote:
    > Greg Guarino wrote:
    >> On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 09:16:46 +1300, frederick <> wrote:
    >>
    >>> Greg Guarino wrote:
    >>>> On Mon, 6 Nov 2006 11:48:08 -0500, "mark_digital©"
    >>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> I installed 6 freshly charged AAA batteries (niMH) in a new pepper
    >>>>> mill. I was told it's a good idea to use them instead of use-once
    >>>>> type batteries

    >>
    >>>> I like pepper. A lot. I use an unreasonable amount of it on my food.
    >>>> My pepper grinder runs on a renewable energy source as well, which is
    >>>> derived mostly from starchy foods and stored in excess adipose tissue.
    >>>> No batteries needed.
    >>>> Greg Guarino
    >>> Same here - it's a spice used at the table. There's something nice
    >>> about using a good pepper grinder at the table. For salt, I prefer
    >>> sea salt - either pre-ground in a pestle and mortar, or preferably
    >>> the expensive flaky sea salt (Maldon), put in a small bowl on the
    >>> table, and taken out in small pinches.
    >>> I expect that the OP is American.

    >>
    >> So am I.
    >> Greg Guarino

    >
    > Perhaps being American doesn't mean that that you see electric pepper
    > and salt grinders as useful, but seeing them as useful might mean that
    > you're American?


    Well, fine, I wouldn't disagree, and you'll not know whether I'm a Yank,
    a Brit, 'Strain, other English speaking, or completely Continental. I
    look Caucasian.

    But pointing out such little things can be offensive.

    Shirley, you don't mean to be offensive, do you?

    -
    john mcwilliams
     
    John McWilliams, Nov 6, 2006
    #12
  13. Rita Ä Berkowitz wrote:
    > mark_digital© wrote:
    >
    >> I installed 6 freshly charged AAA batteries (niMH) in a new pepper
    >> mill. I was told it's a good idea to use them instead of use-once
    >> type batteries because they can provide better torque for an extended
    >> time. I simply wanted to avoid paying more for batteries than the
    >> peppercorns, and I didn't want leakage.
    >> The mill was a little on the expensive side but at least it doesn't
    >> leave pepper all over when it's put down. I picked it up at Bed Bath
    >> and Beyond. I'm thinking about getting another one to grind sea salt.
    >> So, am I doing the right thing by using rechargables?

    >
    > For Christ's sake! Did I read right? Are you saying you use an electric
    > grinder to grind peppercorns? This is by far the dumbest and most
    > irresponsible thing one can do next to using an electric coffee mill to
    > grind coffee.


    The right type of coffee mill has no deleterious effect on the resultant
    grounds, and is much more pleasant than hand grinding.

    More is lost in improper brewing than by poor grinding, by a factor of
    6.8 x.

    --
    john mcwilliams
























    way too low.
     
    John McWilliams, Nov 6, 2006
    #13
  14. mark_digital©

    BR549 Guest

    "Rita Ä Berkowitz" <ritaberk2O04 @aol.com> wrote in message
    news:...
    > mark_digital© wrote:
    >
    >> I installed 6 freshly charged AAA batteries (niMH) in a new pepper
    >> mill. I was told it's a good idea to use them instead of use-once
    >> type batteries because they can provide better torque for an extended
    >> time. I simply wanted to avoid paying more for batteries than the
    >> peppercorns, and I didn't want leakage.
    >> The mill was a little on the expensive side but at least it doesn't
    >> leave pepper all over when it's put down. I picked it up at Bed Bath
    >> and Beyond. I'm thinking about getting another one to grind sea salt.
    >> So, am I doing the right thing by using rechargables?

    >
    > For Christ's sake! Did I read right? Are you saying you use an electric
    > grinder to grind peppercorns? This is by far the dumbest and most
    > irresponsible thing one can do next to using an electric coffee mill to
    > grind coffee. The intense heat from the friction destroys any flavors and
    > aroma you had in the peppercorns. Always hand grind your peppercorns or
    > buy
    > that garbage McCormick sells.


    Give me a break, "Intense heat" from a battery operated pepper mill, I think
    not. If you engaged the pepper mill for 30 seconds (enough ground pepper
    for several weeks) I doubt if the grinding mechanism would even get warm.
     
    BR549, Nov 6, 2006
    #14
  15. mark_digital©

    Jim Townsend Guest

    Charles Schuler wrote:

    >
    > "Jim Townsend" <> wrote in message
    >
    >>
    >> I use rechargeables in ALL my electronic gadgets, (Except for a couple of
    >> IR remote controls for the TV etc which use AAA cells). I even use them
    >> in my little desktop battery powered pencil sharpener.

    >
    > And the self-discharge time is OK?


    Yes.. I use them in my wireless mouse. It has no shutoff switch and
    the red LED is flashing all the time. I get a month easily out of a
    charge with my NiMH batteries.

    > Flashlights are another issue. Most folks use them
    > infrequently, but would really like them to work when they need them
    > (rechargeable alkalines suck in this case).


    I do have a three 'D' cell flashlight that I use non rechargeable alkalines
    in. But I also have two AA cell flash lights and I use NiMH batteries in
    them. They've never been flat when I've wanted to use them.
     
    Jim Townsend, Nov 6, 2006
    #15
  16. mark_digital©

    George Kerby Guest

    On 11/6/06 4:16 PM, in article , "Rita Ä
    Berkowitz" <ritaberk2O04 @aol.com> wrote:

    > mark_digital© wrote:
    >
    >> I installed 6 freshly charged AAA batteries (niMH) in a new pepper
    >> mill. I was told it's a good idea to use them instead of use-once
    >> type batteries because they can provide better torque for an extended
    >> time. I simply wanted to avoid paying more for batteries than the
    >> peppercorns, and I didn't want leakage.
    >> The mill was a little on the expensive side but at least it doesn't
    >> leave pepper all over when it's put down. I picked it up at Bed Bath
    >> and Beyond. I'm thinking about getting another one to grind sea salt.
    >> So, am I doing the right thing by using rechargables?

    >
    > For Christ's sake! Did I read right? Are you saying you use an electric
    > grinder to grind peppercorns? This is by far the dumbest and most
    > irresponsible thing one can do next to using an electric coffee mill to
    > grind coffee. The intense heat from the friction destroys any flavors and
    > aroma you had in the peppercorns. Always hand grind your peppercorns or buy
    > that garbage McCormick sells.
    >
    >

    Charming Rita the Culture Maid,

    Perhaps the O.P. Just *might* have an impairment, such as maybe - I donno -
    maybe arthritis, preventing him/her <<(you can relate), from performing the
    task without the help of an electric device. But I'm so sure that you took
    this in consideration before posting your gracious suggestion, and will
    immediately follow your very civil instructions.

    Urbanely yours,

    ­GK


    ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
    http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
    ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via Encryption =----
     
    George Kerby, Nov 6, 2006
    #16
  17. mark_digital©

    frederick Guest

    John McWilliams wrote:
    > frederick wrote:
    >> Greg Guarino wrote:
    >>> On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 09:16:46 +1300, frederick <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> Greg Guarino wrote:
    >>>>> On Mon, 6 Nov 2006 11:48:08 -0500, "mark_digital©"
    >>>>> <> wrote:
    >>>>>
    >>>>>> I installed 6 freshly charged AAA batteries (niMH) in a new pepper
    >>>>>> mill. I was told it's a good idea to use them instead of use-once
    >>>>>> type batteries
    >>>
    >>>>> I like pepper. A lot. I use an unreasonable amount of it on my food.
    >>>>> My pepper grinder runs on a renewable energy source as well, which is
    >>>>> derived mostly from starchy foods and stored in excess adipose tissue.
    >>>>> No batteries needed.
    >>>>> Greg Guarino
    >>>> Same here - it's a spice used at the table. There's something nice
    >>>> about using a good pepper grinder at the table. For salt, I prefer
    >>>> sea salt - either pre-ground in a pestle and mortar, or preferably
    >>>> the expensive flaky sea salt (Maldon), put in a small bowl on the
    >>>> table, and taken out in small pinches.
    >>>> I expect that the OP is American.
    >>>
    >>> So am I.
    >>> Greg Guarino

    >>
    >> Perhaps being American doesn't mean that that you see electric pepper
    >> and salt grinders as useful, but seeing them as useful might mean that
    >> you're American?

    >
    > Well, fine, I wouldn't disagree, and you'll not know whether I'm a Yank,
    > a Brit, 'Strain, other English speaking, or completely Continental. I
    > look Caucasian.
    >
    > But pointing out such little things can be offensive.
    >
    > Shirley, you don't mean to be offensive, do you?
    >


    Of course not, I'd never do that!

    If offense could be taken from what I have said above, then that is
    *entirely* in the mind of the reader.
    Because of course I have not stated that there is anything *inferior*
    about using an electric pepper grinder, an electric carving knife,
    scooping up peas or beans with a fork, or eating chappatis with your
    left hand.
     
    frederick, Nov 6, 2006
    #17
  18. BR549 wrote:

    >> For Christ's sake! Did I read right? Are you saying you use an
    >> electric grinder to grind peppercorns? This is by far the dumbest
    >> and most irresponsible thing one can do next to using an electric
    >> coffee mill to grind coffee. The intense heat from the friction
    >> destroys any flavors and aroma you had in the peppercorns. Always
    >> hand grind your peppercorns or buy
    >> that garbage McCormick sells.

    >
    > Give me a break, "Intense heat" from a battery operated pepper mill,
    > I think not. If you engaged the pepper mill for 30 seconds (enough
    > ground pepper for several weeks) I doubt if the grinding mechanism
    > would even get warm.


    Absolutely destructive on a molecular level! Just because you can't feel the
    heat doesn't mean that damage hasn't been done. Then again, if you have
    ground enough pepper for several weeks you probably wouldn't be able to
    taste the difference between pepper and gypsum. Pepper should only be hand
    ground on an as needed basis for maximum flavor and aroma.






    Rita
     
    =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rita_=C4_Berkowitz?=, Nov 7, 2006
    #18
  19. John McWilliams wrote:

    >> For Christ's sake! Did I read right? Are you saying you use an
    >> electric grinder to grind peppercorns? This is by far the dumbest
    >> and most irresponsible thing one can do next to using an electric
    >> coffee mill to grind coffee.

    >
    > The right type of coffee mill has no deleterious effect on the
    > resultant grounds, and is much more pleasant than hand grinding.


    The right type of mill is key to success. I've seen some that I wouldn't
    grind KNO3 in.

    > More is lost in improper brewing than by poor grinding, by a factor of
    > 6.8 x.


    If you mean not using a perfect 200* water temp and using improper filters I
    can agree with you. The main culprit is the wrong filter. The best filter
    is made from 500-mesh double-Dutch weave stainless steel, custom made of
    course. Solid particulates will kill a pot of coffee.






    Rita
     
    =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rita_=C4_Berkowitz?=, Nov 7, 2006
    #19
  20. mark_digital©

    ASAAR Guest

    On Tue, 07 Nov 2006 11:15:35 +1300, frederick wrote:

    > Perhaps being American doesn't mean that that you see electric pepper
    > and salt grinders as useful, but seeing them as useful might mean that
    > you're American?


    It more likely means that one is addicted to buying gadgets,
    especially from catalogs, or has old, arthritic wrists and fingers.
    Whether Americans rank high on the list is unknown by me, but it's
    probably lower than it would have been a decade or two ago, due to
    most American's reduced (and still declining) disposable income.
     
    ASAAR, Nov 7, 2006
    #20
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