OT: Fair use online

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Robert Feinman, Mar 16, 2005.

  1. I've discovered that several of my online images are being used
    by bloggers as banners or backgrounds on their sites.
    Is some cases the site is a private one so I can't actually see
    or contact the person. In a few other cases I've written to the
    person and asked them to stop.

    It seems to me that, at a minimum, a person should at least ask
    permission before incorporating a copyright image into their
    own page.
    It would seem that the concept of "fair use" is getting muddled.
    I realize the music and video issues are what usually get all
    the attention, but what do others think about this issue?

    --
    Robert D Feinman
    Landscapes, Cityscapes and Panoramic Photographs
    http://robertdfeinman.com
    mail:
     
    Robert Feinman, Mar 16, 2005
    #1
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  2. Robert Feinman

    Tim S. Guest

    Re: Fair use online

    "Robert Feinman" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I've discovered that several of my online images are being used
    > by bloggers as banners or backgrounds on their sites.
    > Is some cases the site is a private one so I can't actually see
    > or contact the person. In a few other cases I've written to the
    > person and asked them to stop.
    >
    > It seems to me that, at a minimum, a person should at least ask
    > permission before incorporating a copyright image into their
    > own page.
    > It would seem that the concept of "fair use" is getting muddled.
    > I realize the music and video issues are what usually get all
    > the attention, but what do others think about this issue?
    >
    > --
    > Robert D Feinman
    > Landscapes, Cityscapes and Panoramic Photographs
    > http://robertdfeinman.com
    > mail:


    Perhaps if you watermark them with a copyrights statement they wont get used
    online?

    Tim
     
    Tim S., Mar 16, 2005
    #2
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  3. Robert Feinman wrote:

    > I've discovered that several of my online images are being used
    > by bloggers as banners or backgrounds on their sites.
    > Is some cases the site is a private one so I can't actually see
    > or contact the person. In a few other cases I've written to the
    > person and asked them to stop.
    >
    > It seems to me that, at a minimum, a person should at least ask
    > permission before incorporating a copyright image into their
    > own page.
    > It would seem that the concept of "fair use" is getting muddled.
    > I realize the music and video issues are what usually get all
    > the attention, but what do others think about this issue?
    >

    I don't think this is OT at all. In fact, it is a frequent thread in
    this group. I agree that courtesy demands at least a request for
    permission. But the copyright for photos is pretty encompassing, and
    fair use limited.

    There seems to be a culture today that is sort of, "so sue me." People
    figure so many people are stealing copyrighted material that the
    majority won't get caught. And suits have to be based on actual
    damages, and if the actual damages are small, it is indeed not worth the
    cost of suing.

    I hate to think that is what our culture is evolving towards. Theft is
    okay if you don't get caught. I'm old enough to be able to rant about
    the good old days, and I have seen respect for property rights decline
    continuously throughout my life.
     
    Don Stauffer in Minneapolis, Mar 16, 2005
    #3
  4. Robert Feinman

    Owamanga Guest

    Re: Fair use online

    On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 07:59:01 -0700, "Tim S." <> wrote:

    >
    >"Robert Feinman" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> I've discovered that several of my online images are being used
    >> by bloggers as banners or backgrounds on their sites.
    >> Is some cases the site is a private one so I can't actually see
    >> or contact the person. In a few other cases I've written to the
    >> person and asked them to stop.
    >>
    >> It seems to me that, at a minimum, a person should at least ask
    >> permission before incorporating a copyright image into their
    >> own page.
    >> It would seem that the concept of "fair use" is getting muddled.
    >> I realize the music and video issues are what usually get all
    >> the attention, but what do others think about this issue?
    >>
    >> --
    >> Robert D Feinman
    >> Landscapes, Cityscapes and Panoramic Photographs
    >> http://robertdfeinman.com
    >> mail:

    >
    >Perhaps if you watermark them with a copyrights statement they wont get used
    >online?


    Why screw up an otherwise good image for 99% of the viewers who aren't
    going to steal it just to make it less attractive to the 1% who might?

    Watermarking sucks.

    I know it's a hard pill to swallow, but from an emotional standpoint,
    unless you were damaged, let it slide. Take it as a compliment. From a
    legal standpoint, (at least in the US) you need to pursue each
    infraction with cease and desists otherwise your images could
    effectively become public domain.

    --
    Owamanga!
    http://www.pbase.com/owamanga
     
    Owamanga, Mar 16, 2005
    #4
  5. Robert Feinman

    [BnH] Guest

    Re: Fair use online

    Wow .. with the images you created .. no wonder they like to snatch it :)

    Anyway consult some forums .. or read around on the net .. there is a way to
    protect your image ,
    so those clowns who tried to steal your image can only get a pixel of dummy
    image.
    I myself is looking at this topic too as I am building my online gallery now
    ....

    A sample of it can be found in www.forumkamera.com or you can try saving my
    images located at b18.forumkamera.com .

    =bob=


    "Robert Feinman" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I've discovered that several of my online images are being used
    > by bloggers as banners or backgrounds on their sites.
    > Is some cases the site is a private one so I can't actually see
    > or contact the person. In a few other cases I've written to the
    > person and asked them to stop.
    >
    > It seems to me that, at a minimum, a person should at least ask
    > permission before incorporating a copyright image into their
    > own page.
    > It would seem that the concept of "fair use" is getting muddled.
    > I realize the music and video issues are what usually get all
    > the attention, but what do others think about this issue?
    >
    > --
    > Robert D Feinman
    > Landscapes, Cityscapes and Panoramic Photographs
    > http://robertdfeinman.com
    > mail:
     
    [BnH], Mar 16, 2005
    #5
  6. Robert Feinman

    Rick Guest

    Robert Feinman wrote:
    > I've discovered that several of my online images are being used
    > by bloggers as banners or backgrounds on their sites.
    > Is some cases the site is a private one so I can't actually see
    > or contact the person. In a few other cases I've written to the
    > person and asked them to stop.


    The only option to prevent people from stealing your images is not to post
    them on the web, don't post high resolution images that you are not
    prepared to loose control over.

    You could try contacting the ISP/host if the individual cannot be contacted,
    a well worded letter can be enough to get the offending site pulled.

    --

    Rick

    Digital Printing
    www.intelligence-direct.com - 01270 215550
     
    Rick, Mar 16, 2005
    #6
  7. Robert Feinman

    Graham Guest

    Re: Fair use online

    On Thu, 17 Mar 2005 03:01:16 +1100, [BnH],
    <news:4238584b$0$3689$>
    wrote this:

    > A sample of it can be found in www.forumkamera.com or you can try saving my
    > images located at b18.forumkamera.com .


    It wont prevent a screen capture which is perfectly good enough for
    most web applications, banner ads etc.
     
    Graham, Mar 16, 2005
    #7
  8. Robert Feinman

    Joe Makowiec Guest

    On 16 Mar 2005 in rec.photo.digital, Robert Feinman wrote:

    > I've discovered that several of my online images are being used
    > by bloggers as banners or backgrounds on their sites.
    > Is some cases the site is a private one so I can't actually see
    > or contact the person. In a few other cases I've written to the
    > person and asked them to stop.


    Do you mean that they're hotlinking from your server? If so, and
    you're referring to your http://robertdfeinman.com server, since it's
    an Apache server, you can use .htaccess to block others from hotlinking
    your images:

    http://www.google.com/search?q=htaccess block image link

    If you're truly steamed about it, you can use the same technique to
    replace the hotlinked image with something like, say, an image which
    says "This person is a bandwidth thief and copyright violator".

    > It seems to me that, at a minimum, a person should at least ask
    > permission before incorporating a copyright image into their
    > own page.
    > It would seem that the concept of "fair use" is getting muddled.
    > I realize the music and video issues are what usually get all
    > the attention, but what do others think about this issue?


    I'm a web developer; in the web dev newsgroups I hang out in, the
    consensus about protecting images seems to be that you only have a few
    options:
    - Watermark the image
    - Post such a low-res image that it won't be overly useful
    - Don't worry about it
    - Don't post the image

    There are a few techniques which will slow image thiefs down, but none
    of them are truly effective against any but the truly clueless, and
    most of them have some downside. For example, no-right-click scripts
    are ridiculously easy to defeat, and assuming that they were effective,
    they block useful functionality, like Forward and Back.

    --
    Joe Makowiec
    http://makowiec.org/
    Email: http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe
     
    Joe Makowiec, Mar 16, 2005
    #8
  9. Robert Feinman

    Big Bill Guest

    On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:12:51 -0500, Robert Feinman
    <> wrote:

    >I've discovered that several of my online images are being used
    >by bloggers as banners or backgrounds on their sites.
    >Is some cases the site is a private one so I can't actually see
    >or contact the person. In a few other cases I've written to the
    >person and asked them to stop.
    >
    >It seems to me that, at a minimum, a person should at least ask
    >permission before incorporating a copyright image into their
    >own page.
    >It would seem that the concept of "fair use" is getting muddled.
    >I realize the music and video issues are what usually get all
    >the attention, but what do others think about this issue?


    If I were you, I'd realize that if the pics are indeed used under fair
    use, I'd just ask for some sort of credit for the pics, and otherwise
    let it go.
    There's no use getting upset over something that doesn't hurt you AND
    you can't do anything about.
    --
    Bill Funk
    Change "g" to "a"
     
    Big Bill, Mar 16, 2005
    #9
  10. Robert Feinman

    Douglas Guest

    Re: Fair use online

    Put a value on your images. Decide then if the likelyhood someone will use
    them (keep in mind the resolution prevents 'real' theft) is worth the risk
    of uploading them and then decide if your on-line sales are worth the risk.

    I used to run an extensive on-line library of postcards for clients to make
    bulk purchases. I discovered one day that one of my clients had downloaded
    every image on my site and was offering her clients my postcard pictures
    with here text on them, substantially cheaper than were on my rack in her
    office.

    For me, it was a heads up look at how vulnerable photographers are on the
    Internet. I do all my business now via a catalogue. I have toyed with the
    idea of using distorted images for another on-line catalogue but at this
    point, the printed catalogue is far more effective than the web site ever
    was. Your images are not as vulnerable as mine were. Why not just accept
    that whatever you put on the 'net is fair game and formulate your marketing
    around that presumption?

    Douglas
    ----------------------------
    "Robert Feinman" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I've discovered that several of my online images are being used
    > by bloggers as banners or backgrounds on their sites.
    > Is some cases the site is a private one so I can't actually see
    > or contact the person. In a few other cases I've written to the
    > person and asked them to stop.
    >
    > It seems to me that, at a minimum, a person should at least ask
    > permission before incorporating a copyright image into their
    > own page.
    > It would seem that the concept of "fair use" is getting muddled.
    > I realize the music and video issues are what usually get all
    > the attention, but what do others think about this issue?
    >
    > --
    > Robert D Feinman
    > Landscapes, Cityscapes and Panoramic Photographs
    > http://robertdfeinman.com
    > mail:
     
    Douglas, Mar 16, 2005
    #10
  11. Robert Feinman

    Bruce Lewis Guest

    Re: Fair use online

    Owamanga <owamanga(not-this-bit)@hotmail.com> writes:

    > I know it's a hard pill to swallow, but from an emotional standpoint,
    > unless you were damaged, let it slide. Take it as a compliment. From a
    > legal standpoint, (at least in the US) you need to pursue each
    > infraction with cease and desists otherwise your images could
    > effectively become public domain.


    Regarding public domain: you're thinking of trademarks. Not pursuing
    copyright infringement just means it's hard to prove willful
    infringement. You don't lose the copyright.

    Regarding taking it as a compliment: I think somebody is a good
    photographer, but I won't tell you who it is. Is that a compliment? If
    they link to the photographer's images, ethically I think everyone will
    agree that credit is due. Legally, they're obligated to get permission.
    The OP puts a mailto: link right on his front page; there's no excuse
    for them not to have contacted him.
     
    Bruce Lewis, Mar 16, 2005
    #11
  12. Robert Feinman

    Owamanga Guest

    Re: Fair use online

    On 16 Mar 2005 14:29:50 -0500, Bruce Lewis <> wrote:

    >Owamanga <owamanga(not-this-bit)@hotmail.com> writes:
    >
    >> I know it's a hard pill to swallow, but from an emotional standpoint,
    >> unless you were damaged, let it slide. Take it as a compliment. From a
    >> legal standpoint, (at least in the US) you need to pursue each
    >> infraction with cease and desists otherwise your images could
    >> effectively become public domain.

    >
    >Regarding public domain: you're thinking of trademarks. Not pursuing
    >copyright infringement just means it's hard to prove willful
    >infringement. You don't lose the copyright.


    Okay.

    >Regarding taking it as a compliment: I think somebody is a good
    >photographer, but I won't tell you who it is. Is that a compliment?


    If you told them, yes its a compliment. Even if you imply it, by
    theft, it's a complement.

    If you told me, it's a positive reference or review.

    If the photographer gives me your comments in writing, it's a
    testimonial.

    > If
    >they link to the photographer's images, ethically I think everyone will
    >agree that credit is due.


    Correct from my standpoint, credit is due.

    >Legally, they're obligated to get permission.


    Yes.

    >The OP puts a mailto: link right on his front page; there's no excuse
    >for them not to have contacted him.


    Agreed, it's illegal, immoral and bad manners.

    --
    Owamanga!
    http://www.pbase.com/owamanga
     
    Owamanga, Mar 16, 2005
    #12
  13. Robert Feinman

    Iain Laskey Guest

    In article <>,
    (Robert Feinman) wrote:

    > *From:* Robert Feinman <>
    > *Date:* Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:12:51 -0500
    >
    > I've discovered that several of my online images are being used
    > by bloggers as banners or backgrounds on their sites.

    How did you spot this?

    Iain
     
    Iain Laskey, Mar 16, 2005
    #13
  14. Robert Feinman

    bob Guest

    Joe Makowiec wrote:

    > Do you mean that they're hotlinking from your server? If so, and
    > you're referring to your http://robertdfeinman.com server, since it's
    > an Apache server, you can use .htaccess to block others from hotlinking
    > your images:


    If that's the case, it would be a lot more fun to rewrite one's pages to
    use different urls, and then replace the image they are making use of
    with something insulting.

    Bob
     
    bob, Mar 16, 2005
    #14
  15. Robert Feinman

    Joe Makowiec Guest

    On 16 Mar 2005 in rec.photo.digital, bob wrote:

    > Joe Makowiec wrote:
    >
    >> Do you mean that they're hotlinking from your server? If so, and
    >> you're referring to your http://robertdfeinman.com server, since
    >> it's an Apache server, you can use .htaccess to block others from
    >> hotlinking your images:

    >
    > If that's the case, it would be a lot more fun to rewrite one's
    > pages to use different urls, and then replace the image they are
    > making use of with something insulting.


    But that has three major disadvantages:
    - Your site, which may or may not already be well-placed in search
    engines, all of a sudden has a new structure
    - They're still stealing your bandwidth, if not your images
    - As soon as they catch on, the leech can find the original image and
    change links to continue to use it

    --
    Joe Makowiec
    http://makowiec.org/
    Email: http://makowiec.org/contact/?Joe
     
    Joe Makowiec, Mar 16, 2005
    #15
  16. Robert Feinman

    PTRAVEL Guest

    "Big Bill" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:12:51 -0500, Robert Feinman
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>I've discovered that several of my online images are being used
    >>by bloggers as banners or backgrounds on their sites.
    >>Is some cases the site is a private one so I can't actually see
    >>or contact the person. In a few other cases I've written to the
    >>person and asked them to stop.
    >>
    >>It seems to me that, at a minimum, a person should at least ask
    >>permission before incorporating a copyright image into their
    >>own page.
    >>It would seem that the concept of "fair use" is getting muddled.
    >>I realize the music and video issues are what usually get all
    >>the attention, but what do others think about this issue?

    >
    > If I were you, I'd realize that if the pics are indeed used under fair
    > use, I'd just ask for some sort of credit for the pics, and otherwise
    > let it go.


    The use described by the OP almost certainly does not come within fair use.


    > There's no use getting upset over something that doesn't hurt you AND
    > you can't do anything about.
    > --
    > Bill Funk
    > Change "g" to "a"
     
    PTRAVEL, Mar 17, 2005
    #16
  17. Robert Feinman

    Big Bill Guest

    On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:36:37 -0800, "PTRAVEL"
    <> wrote:

    >
    >"Big Bill" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:12:51 -0500, Robert Feinman
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>I've discovered that several of my online images are being used
    >>>by bloggers as banners or backgrounds on their sites.
    >>>Is some cases the site is a private one so I can't actually see
    >>>or contact the person. In a few other cases I've written to the
    >>>person and asked them to stop.
    >>>
    >>>It seems to me that, at a minimum, a person should at least ask
    >>>permission before incorporating a copyright image into their
    >>>own page.
    >>>It would seem that the concept of "fair use" is getting muddled.
    >>>I realize the music and video issues are what usually get all
    >>>the attention, but what do others think about this issue?

    >>
    >> If I were you, I'd realize that if the pics are indeed used under fair
    >> use, I'd just ask for some sort of credit for the pics, and otherwise
    >> let it go.

    >
    >The use described by the OP almost certainly does not come within fair use.


    I'm under the impression that, if there's no commercial use (are
    blogers charging now), it's fair use. Or as close as to make no never
    mind.
    No?

    --
    Bill Funk
    Change "g" to "a"
     
    Big Bill, Mar 17, 2005
    #17
  18. Robert Feinman

    Frank ess Guest

    Big Bill wrote:
    > On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 17:36:37 -0800, "PTRAVEL"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >> "Big Bill" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>> On Wed, 16 Mar 2005 09:12:51 -0500, Robert Feinman
    >>> <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> I've discovered that several of my online images are being used
    >>>> by bloggers as banners or backgrounds on their sites.
    >>>> Is some cases the site is a private one so I can't actually see
    >>>> or contact the person. In a few other cases I've written to the
    >>>> person and asked them to stop.
    >>>>
    >>>> It seems to me that, at a minimum, a person should at least ask
    >>>> permission before incorporating a copyright image into their
    >>>> own page.
    >>>> It would seem that the concept of "fair use" is getting muddled.
    >>>> I realize the music and video issues are what usually get all
    >>>> the attention, but what do others think about this issue?
    >>>
    >>> If I were you, I'd realize that if the pics are indeed used under
    >>> fair use, I'd just ask for some sort of credit for the pics, and
    >>> otherwise let it go.

    >>
    >> The use described by the OP almost certainly does not come within
    >> fair use.

    >
    > I'm under the impression that, if there's no commercial use (are
    > blogers charging now), it's fair use. Or as close as to make no never
    > mind.
    > No?


    "No" is correct.

    Visit Editorial Photographers, an excellent resource for experienced
    opinion.
    http://www.editorialphoto.com/


    --
    Frank ess
     
    Frank ess, Mar 17, 2005
    #18
  19. Robert Feinman

    Ryan Robbins Guest

    Re: Fair use online

    "Owamanga" <owamanga(not-this-bit)@hotmail.com> wrote in message
    news:...
    > From a
    > legal standpoint, (at least in the US) you need to pursue each
    > infraction with cease and desists otherwise your images could
    > effectively become public domain.


    This is false.
     
    Ryan Robbins, Mar 17, 2005
    #19
  20. Robert Feinman

    Ryan Robbins Guest

    "Big Bill" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I'm under the impression that, if there's no commercial use (are
    > blogers charging now), it's fair use.


    Absolutely false. This is the No. 1 myth about copyright law.
     
    Ryan Robbins, Mar 17, 2005
    #20
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