OT: cable Internet and Phone

Discussion in 'UK VOIP' started by Databug, Jul 9, 2006.

  1. Databug

    Databug Guest

    Wifey is looking into cable for cheaper phone costs. We hardly ever make
    calls our calls bill for a quarter is less than £5 the rest is just line
    rental. Cable seem to be cheaper line rental. Anyone have any experience
    with cable? does it work out cheaper? Also for broadband Blueyonder seem
    to be good. Is their service truly unlimited? Again any opinions on
    either welcome.
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    Databug, Jul 9, 2006
    #1
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  2. Databug

    Databug Guest

    Databug wrote:
    > Wifey is looking into cable for cheaper phone costs. We hardly ever make
    > calls our calls bill for a quarter is less than £5 the rest is just line
    > rental. Cable seem to be cheaper line rental. Anyone have any experience
    > with cable? does it work out cheaper? Also for broadband Blueyonder seem
    > to be good. Is their service truly unlimited? Again any opinions on
    > either welcome.


    whoops sorry wrong newsgroup but comments still welcome :))

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    Databug, Jul 9, 2006
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  3. Databug

    Jono Guest

    After serious thinking Databug wrote :
    > Wifey is looking into cable for cheaper phone costs. We hardly ever make
    > calls our calls bill for a quarter is less than £5 the rest is just line
    > rental. Cable seem to be cheaper line rental. Anyone have any experience with
    > cable? does it work out cheaper? Also for broadband Blueyonder seem to be
    > good. Is their service truly unlimited? Again any opinions on either welcome.


    Not off topic at all.

    If you can do without a physical landline, you could use Blueyonder BB
    (yes it's unlimited), and a purely VoIP solution for your "fixed line"
    - no need to pay any line rental as you do not need one.

    You can even port your BT number to certain VSPs.

    TW are not known particularly well for competitive phone packages (if
    at all) - the minimum call set up fee of 6p puts me off.

    Plenty of VSPs about (not in any order):

    www.gradwell.com
    www.sipgate.co.uk
    www.voip.co.uk
    www.voipfone.co.uk
    www.orbtalk.com
    www.sipdiscount.com
    www.internetcalls.com
     
    Jono, Jul 9, 2006
    #3
  4. Databug

    Graham. Guest

    Re: cable Internet and Phone

    "Databug" <> wrote in message
    news:dTcsg.99945$...
    > Wifey is looking into cable for cheaper phone costs. We hardly ever make
    > calls our calls bill for a quarter is less than £5 the rest is just line
    > rental. Cable seem to be cheaper line rental. Anyone have any experience
    > with cable? does it work out cheaper? Also for broadband Blueyonder seem
    > to be good. Is their service truly unlimited? Again any opinions on either
    > welcome.


    For some unknown reason NTL missed out my street when they cabled the
    district. If I could, I would change to their cable modem only sevice.
    The BT line that carries my ADSL is only used for incomming calls now. All
    my outgoing calls go via ADSL, and, as my company pay for my Broadband, (but
    not my phone line-rental), it would make a big difference.


    --
    Graham.

    %Profound_observation%
     
    Graham., Jul 9, 2006
    #4
  5. Databug

    stephen Guest

    Re: cable Internet and Phone

    "Databug" <> wrote in message
    news:dTcsg.99945$...
    > Wifey is looking into cable for cheaper phone costs. We hardly ever make
    > calls our calls bill for a quarter is less than £5 the rest is just line
    > rental. Cable seem to be cheaper line rental. Anyone have any experience
    > with cable? does it work out cheaper? Also for broadband Blueyonder seem
    > to be good. Is their service truly unlimited? Again any opinions on
    > either welcome.


    i am in an NTL area - we take phone / internet / digital TV.

    depending on which package you end up on the phone line has no rental (or
    more accurately it gets bundled elsewhere). At present i pay £25 for 4M
    internet, £28 for a TV package, £0 for phone, and get £9 or so "bundle
    discount". there are a couple of extra charges for voicemail etc.

    So you could keep a conventional line for incoming calls and send all
    outgoing over the internet....

    i suspect you can do better than this as a new signer - but it has been
    reasonably reliable, and simple. i have been using parts of the service
    since the Nynex days.

    however - some BT phone services are not there - no CPS divert codes /
    options for example (which i could otherwise use for work calls)

    > --
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    Regards

    - replace xyz with ntl
     
    stephen, Jul 9, 2006
    #5
  6. Databug

    Databug Guest

    Jono wrote:
    > After serious thinking Databug wrote :
    >> Wifey is looking into cable for cheaper phone costs. We hardly ever
    >> make calls our calls bill for a quarter is less than £5 the rest is
    >> just line rental. Cable seem to be cheaper line rental. Anyone have
    >> any experience with cable? does it work out cheaper? Also for
    >> broadband Blueyonder seem to be good. Is their service truly
    >> unlimited? Again any opinions on either welcome.

    >
    > Not off topic at all.
    >
    > If you can do without a physical landline, you could use Blueyonder BB
    > (yes it's unlimited), and a purely VoIP solution for your "fixed line" -
    > no need to pay any line rental as you do not need one.


    Do you not need some sort of physical landline/cable for the internet?

    > You can even port your BT number to certain VSPs.
    >
    > TW are not known particularly well for competitive phone packages (if at
    > all) - the minimum call set up fee of 6p puts me off.
    >
    > Plenty of VSPs about (not in any order):
    >
    > www.gradwell.com
    > www.sipgate.co.uk
    > www.voip.co.uk
    > www.voipfone.co.uk
    > www.orbtalk.com
    > www.sipdiscount.com
    > www.internetcalls.com


    cheers for that list. Actually the reason for asking this is because of
    looking into voip. Nearly all of our phone bill is for the line and we
    need that for internet so we thought maybe we should look at some
    alternatives. VOIP is great for calls (so far been using skype and VOIP
    stunt).

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    Databug, Jul 10, 2006
    #6
  7. Databug

    Databug Guest

    Re: cable Internet and Phone

    stephen wrote:
    > "Databug" <> wrote in message
    > news:dTcsg.99945$...
    >> Wifey is looking into cable for cheaper phone costs. We hardly ever make
    >> calls our calls bill for a quarter is less than £5 the rest is just line
    >> rental. Cable seem to be cheaper line rental. Anyone have any experience
    >> with cable? does it work out cheaper? Also for broadband Blueyonder seem
    >> to be good. Is their service truly unlimited? Again any opinions on
    >> either welcome.

    >
    > i am in an NTL area - we take phone / internet / digital TV.


    I know Blueyonder are pretty good for Internet out of the cable
    providers but I had heard some negative things about NTL. The biggest
    thing with ISPs that I hate is when they advertise unlimited services
    that are limited or throttled in some way or start the wholesale
    throwing off of users that they say are abusing the service and then
    don't state exactly what abusing the service is.

    > depending on which package you end up on the phone line has no rental (or
    > more accurately it gets bundled elsewhere). At present i pay £25 for 4M
    > internet, £28 for a TV package, £0 for phone, and get £9 or so "bundle
    > discount". there are a couple of extra charges for voicemail etc.


    We don't have a TV and have no desire of getting one so Bundle options
    may be out. I'm also not interested in fast internet I have 1mb and that
    is fast enough for me atm so long as it's unlimited. Our phone charges
    with BT are £30 per quarter and on top we pay about £5 for the actual
    phone use.

    > So you could keep a conventional line for incoming calls and send all
    > outgoing over the internet....


    That's kind of what I had in mind.
    For the few times we use the phone a software based option for now would
    suffice. If we use it a lot we can always look into a hardphone thing.
    IKWIM

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    Databug, Jul 10, 2006
    #7
  8. Databug

    Jono Guest

    "Databug" <> wrote in message
    news:Tcnsg.155811$...

    >
    > Do you not need some sort of physical landline/cable for the internet?


    You don't need a /telephone/ line with cable broadband - clearly, they need
    to supply a "wire & modem" for the internet, but you don't need the
    additional expense of phone line.

    AFAIUI, NTL's 10Mb product is now unlimited.

    >
    > Actually the reason for asking this is because of looking into voip.
    > Nearly all of our phone bill is for the line and we need that for internet
    > so we thought maybe we should look at some alternatives.


    If you're on cable......no phone line required.
     
    Jono, Jul 10, 2006
    #8
  9. Databug

    Databug Guest

    Jono wrote:
    > "Databug" <> wrote in message
    > news:Tcnsg.155811$...
    >
    >> Do you not need some sort of physical landline/cable for the internet?

    >
    > You don't need a /telephone/ line with cable broadband - clearly, they need
    > to supply a "wire & modem" for the internet, but you don't need the
    > additional expense of phone line.
    >
    > AFAIUI, NTL's 10Mb product is now unlimited.
    >
    >> Actually the reason for asking this is because of looking into voip.
    >> Nearly all of our phone bill is for the line and we need that for internet
    >> so we thought maybe we should look at some alternatives.

    >
    > If you're on cable......no phone line required.


    OK I see what you are saying. What confused me was when you said "no
    need to pay any line rental as you do not need one." From what I have
    been able to gather from the NTL and Telewest Webpage is there is a line
    rental charge. Obviously you pay that to the cable provider instead of
    BT. So you are "free" from BT.
    But also from what I've been able to gather is the line rental is not
    much different to BT's line rental. BT is £10 per month payable
    quarterly and Cable seems to be £11 per month. The only difference there
    is Cable have free UK calls over the weekend. So in that regard it
    probably works out marginally cheaper depending on how much you use the
    phone over the weekend.
    With cable savings seem to be on package deals. We have no TV so have no
    need of any of the TV services.The BB seems to be a bit cheaper than the
    competition and certainly cheaper than what I'm paying atm £23 per month
    to Pipex. So there do seem to be some savings across the board though
    not necessarily on the phone costs.
    Please correct me if I'm wrong.


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    Databug, Jul 10, 2006
    #9
  10. Thus spaketh Databug:
    > Jono wrote:
    >> "Databug" <> wrote in message
    >> news:Tcnsg.155811$...
    >>
    >>> Do you not need some sort of physical landline/cable for the
    >>> internet?

    >>
    >> You don't need a /telephone/ line with cable broadband - clearly,
    >> they need to supply a "wire & modem" for the internet, but you don't
    >> need the additional expense of phone line.
    >>
    >> AFAIUI, NTL's 10Mb product is now unlimited.
    >>
    >>> Actually the reason for asking this is because of looking into voip.
    >>> Nearly all of our phone bill is for the line and we need that for
    >>> internet so we thought maybe we should look at some alternatives.

    >>
    >> If you're on cable......no phone line required.

    >
    > OK I see what you are saying. What confused me was when you said "no
    > need to pay any line rental as you do not need one." From what I have
    > been able to gather from the NTL and Telewest Webpage is there is a
    > line rental charge. Obviously you pay that to the cable provider
    > instead of BT. So you are "free" from BT.
    > But also from what I've been able to gather is the line rental is not
    > much different to BT's line rental. BT is £10 per month payable
    > quarterly and Cable seems to be £11 per month. The only difference
    > there is Cable have free UK calls over the weekend. So in that regard
    > it probably works out marginally cheaper depending on how much you
    > use the phone over the weekend.
    > With cable savings seem to be on package deals. We have no TV so have
    > no need of any of the TV services.The BB seems to be a bit cheaper
    > than the competition and certainly cheaper than what I'm paying atm
    > £23 per month to Pipex. So there do seem to be some savings across
    > the board though not necessarily on the phone costs.
    > Please correct me if I'm wrong.



    You're getting a little confused.

    With ADSL you need a phone line and the broadband over it, therefore
    £11/month for BT landline and whatever per month for broadband.

    With Telewest (who I'm with) you don't need a Telephone line, therefore
    NO £11/month, you just pay for broadband which doesn't come down a
    Telephone line.

    Both BT and cable is £11/month for phoneline, but you DON'T need any
    phoneline with Telewest possibly the same with NTL but you DO with BT,
    therefore you can dump the phoneline altogether.

    Example:

    BT:

    Telephone Line: £11/month
    BT Total Broadband: £17.99/month
    Total: £28.99/month

    Telewest:
    NO Telephone Line: £0.00
    TW Broadband: £17.99/month.

    Total: £17.99/month


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    {{{{{Welcome}}}}}, Jul 10, 2006
    #10
  11. Thus spaketh {{{{{Welcome}}}}}:
    > Thus spaketh Databug:
    >> Jono wrote:
    >>> "Databug" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:Tcnsg.155811$...
    >>>
    >>>> Do you not need some sort of physical landline/cable for the
    >>>> internet?
    >>>
    >>> You don't need a /telephone/ line with cable broadband - clearly,
    >>> they need to supply a "wire & modem" for the internet, but you don't
    >>> need the additional expense of phone line.
    >>>
    >>> AFAIUI, NTL's 10Mb product is now unlimited.
    >>>
    >>>> Actually the reason for asking this is because of looking into
    >>>> voip. Nearly all of our phone bill is for the line and we need
    >>>> that for internet so we thought maybe we should look at some
    >>>> alternatives.
    >>>
    >>> If you're on cable......no phone line required.

    >>
    >> OK I see what you are saying. What confused me was when you said "no
    >> need to pay any line rental as you do not need one." From what I have
    >> been able to gather from the NTL and Telewest Webpage is there is a
    >> line rental charge. Obviously you pay that to the cable provider
    >> instead of BT. So you are "free" from BT.
    >> But also from what I've been able to gather is the line rental is not
    >> much different to BT's line rental. BT is £10 per month payable
    >> quarterly and Cable seems to be £11 per month. The only difference
    >> there is Cable have free UK calls over the weekend. So in that regard
    >> it probably works out marginally cheaper depending on how much you
    >> use the phone over the weekend.
    >> With cable savings seem to be on package deals. We have no TV so have
    >> no need of any of the TV services.The BB seems to be a bit cheaper
    >> than the competition and certainly cheaper than what I'm paying atm
    >> £23 per month to Pipex. So there do seem to be some savings across
    >> the board though not necessarily on the phone costs.
    >> Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    >
    >
    > You're getting a little confused.
    >
    > With ADSL you need a phone line and the broadband over it, therefore
    > £11/month for BT landline and whatever per month for broadband.
    >
    > With Telewest (who I'm with) you don't need a Telephone line,
    > therefore NO £11/month, you just pay for broadband which doesn't come
    > down a Telephone line.
    >
    > Both BT and cable is £11/month for phoneline, but you DON'T need any
    > phoneline with Telewest possibly the same with NTL but you DO with BT,
    > therefore you can dump the phoneline altogether.
    >
    > Example:
    >
    > BT:
    >
    > Telephone Line: £11/month
    > BT Total Broadband: £17.99/month
    > Total: £28.99/month
    >
    > Telewest:
    > NO Telephone Line: £0.00
    > TW Broadband: £17.99/month.
    >
    > Total: £17.99/month



    So as you don't have any Telephone line at all, you are saving £11 per
    month.

    You can then use your internet connection and use VoIP, get either an
    ATA or VoIP router, sign up to Sipgate for example and pay NOTHING per
    month, get free caller display, free call waiting, free voicemail (if
    you want it), free ACR and only pay for any calls you make, so if you
    make no calls, you pay nothing.


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    {{{{{Welcome}}}}}, Jul 10, 2006
    #11
  12. Thus spaketh {{{{{Welcome}}}}}:
    > Thus spaketh {{{{{Welcome}}}}}:
    >> Thus spaketh Databug:
    >>> Jono wrote:
    >>>> "Databug" <> wrote in message
    >>>> news:Tcnsg.155811$...
    >>>>
    >>>>> Do you not need some sort of physical landline/cable for the
    >>>>> internet?
    >>>>
    >>>> You don't need a /telephone/ line with cable broadband - clearly,
    >>>> they need to supply a "wire & modem" for the internet, but you
    >>>> don't need the additional expense of phone line.
    >>>>
    >>>> AFAIUI, NTL's 10Mb product is now unlimited.
    >>>>
    >>>>> Actually the reason for asking this is because of looking into
    >>>>> voip. Nearly all of our phone bill is for the line and we need
    >>>>> that for internet so we thought maybe we should look at some
    >>>>> alternatives.
    >>>>
    >>>> If you're on cable......no phone line required.
    >>>
    >>> OK I see what you are saying. What confused me was when you said "no
    >>> need to pay any line rental as you do not need one." From what I
    >>> have been able to gather from the NTL and Telewest Webpage is there
    >>> is a line rental charge. Obviously you pay that to the cable
    >>> provider instead of BT. So you are "free" from BT.
    >>> But also from what I've been able to gather is the line rental is
    >>> not much different to BT's line rental. BT is £10 per month payable
    >>> quarterly and Cable seems to be £11 per month. The only difference
    >>> there is Cable have free UK calls over the weekend. So in that
    >>> regard it probably works out marginally cheaper depending on how
    >>> much you use the phone over the weekend.
    >>> With cable savings seem to be on package deals. We have no TV so
    >>> have no need of any of the TV services.The BB seems to be a bit
    >>> cheaper than the competition and certainly cheaper than what I'm
    >>> paying atm £23 per month to Pipex. So there do seem to be some
    >>> savings across the board though not necessarily on the phone costs.
    >>> Please correct me if I'm wrong.

    >>
    >>
    >> You're getting a little confused.
    >>
    >> With ADSL you need a phone line and the broadband over it, therefore
    >> £11/month for BT landline and whatever per month for broadband.
    >>
    >> With Telewest (who I'm with) you don't need a Telephone line,
    >> therefore NO £11/month, you just pay for broadband which doesn't come
    >> down a Telephone line.
    >>
    >> Both BT and cable is £11/month for phoneline, but you DON'T need any
    >> phoneline with Telewest possibly the same with NTL but you DO with
    >> BT, therefore you can dump the phoneline altogether.
    >>
    >> Example:
    >>
    >> BT:
    >>
    >> Telephone Line: £11/month
    >> BT Total Broadband: £17.99/month
    >> Total: £28.99/month
    >>
    >> Telewest:
    >> NO Telephone Line: £0.00
    >> TW Broadband: £17.99/month.
    >>
    >> Total: £17.99/month

    >



    For the 1st year broadband is £14.99/month on TW, so you save even more.


    >
    > So as you don't have any Telephone line at all, you are saving £11 per
    > month.
    >
    > You can then use your internet connection and use VoIP, get either an
    > ATA or VoIP router, sign up to Sipgate for example and pay NOTHING per
    > month, get free caller display, free call waiting, free voicemail (if
    > you want it), free ACR and only pay for any calls you make, so if you
    > make no calls, you pay nothing.
     
    {{{{{Welcome}}}}}, Jul 10, 2006
    #12
  13. Databug

    Databug Guest

    {{{{{Welcome}}}}} wrote:

    > Example:
    >
    > BT:
    >
    > Telephone Line: £11/month
    > BT Total Broadband: £17.99/month
    > Total: £28.99/month
    >
    > Telewest:
    > NO Telephone Line: £0.00
    > TW Broadband: £17.99/month.
    >
    > Total: £17.99/month


    Oh right. So you're talking about replacing the phoneline with VOIP all
    together and not bothering with a "normal" phoneservice. Or at least
    that the line is optional rather than necessary as it is with BT. Gotcha
    now.
    Although I think my wife would still like a "normal" phone as she
    doesn't trust all this computery stuff :). But I see the possibilities.

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    Databug, Jul 10, 2006
    #13
  14. Thus spaketh Databug:
    > {{{{{Welcome}}}}} wrote:
    >
    >> Example:
    >>
    >> BT:
    >>
    >> Telephone Line: £11/month
    >> BT Total Broadband: £17.99/month
    >> Total: £28.99/month
    >>
    >> Telewest:
    >> NO Telephone Line: £0.00
    >> TW Broadband: £17.99/month.
    >>
    >> Total: £17.99/month

    >
    > Oh right. So you're talking about replacing the phoneline with VOIP
    > all together and not bothering with a "normal" phoneservice. Or at
    > least that the line is optional rather than necessary as it is with
    > BT. Gotcha now.
    > Although I think my wife would still like a "normal" phone as she
    > doesn't trust all this computery stuff :). But I see the
    > possibilities.


    When you dump the BT landline disconnect the incoming line from the
    master socket, then using an ATA or VoIP router connected to your cable
    broadband service, connect that to your master socket and then use you
    existing phones as you would now, do it tidily and your wife wouldn't
    know the difference.
     
    {{{{{Welcome}}}}}, Jul 10, 2006
    #14
  15. Databug

    Databug Guest

    {{{{{Welcome}}}}} wrote:
    > Thus spaketh Databug:
    >> {{{{{Welcome}}}}} wrote:
    >>
    >>> Example:
    >>>
    >>> BT:
    >>>
    >>> Telephone Line: £11/month
    >>> BT Total Broadband: £17.99/month
    >>> Total: £28.99/month
    >>>
    >>> Telewest:
    >>> NO Telephone Line: £0.00
    >>> TW Broadband: £17.99/month.
    >>>
    >>> Total: £17.99/month

    >>
    >> Oh right. So you're talking about replacing the phoneline with VOIP
    >> all together and not bothering with a "normal" phoneservice. Or at
    >> least that the line is optional rather than necessary as it is with
    >> BT. Gotcha now.
    >> Although I think my wife would still like a "normal" phone as she
    >> doesn't trust all this computery stuff :). But I see the
    >> possibilities.

    >
    > When you dump the BT landline disconnect the incoming line from the
    > master socket, then using an ATA or VoIP router connected to your cable
    > broadband service, connect that to your master socket and then use you
    > existing phones as you would now, do it tidily and your wife wouldn't
    > know the difference.


    Thanks for the enlightening info. It's given us food for thought. Wether
    we do this or not is another matter but at least it's an option that we
    can consider at any time. So in terms of outgoing expenditure I would
    need to invest in a ATA or VOIP router. Then presumably I have to run
    wires from that to all the phone sockets.

    Just a couple of questions. Does internet traffic ie downloading affect
    VOIP?
    Is there any chance that VOIP may be made illegal for taking away
    business from traditional Telcos?
    What's the difference between ATA and VOIP routers?
    Do you have a link explaining simply how to rewire the phone sockets?

    Which of the VOIP companies would you recommend? I've heard of Vonage
    and Sipgate.

    Presumably there is a difference between companies such as Skype that
    offer software VOIP to the likes of Sipgate whose main aim is the
    hardware veriety.

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    Databug, Jul 10, 2006
    #15
  16. Databug

    Ivor Jones Guest

    "Databug" <> wrote in
    message news:_%rsg.102884$

    [snip]


    > Which of the VOIP companies would you recommend? I've
    > heard of Vonage and Sipgate.
    >
    > Presumably there is a difference between companies such
    > as Skype that offer software VOIP to the likes of Sipgate
    > whose main aim is the hardware veriety.


    Skype is a peer-to-peer computer application, you don't use it with ATA's
    and standalone phones. There are USB adaptors available that let you plug
    a phone in I believe but you still need a computer on all the time.

    Personally I wouldn't bother with Vonage as they have a fairly hefty
    monthly charge and the ATA you get is locked to their system. Sipgate has
    in the past had a bit of a reputation for unreliability but they have
    improved considerably in recent months and I now use them almost
    exclusively with very few problems. Their overriding advantage is no
    monthly charges and pay as you go call charges to PSTN numbers. As with
    most VoIP companies calls to other users of the system (and usually other
    VoIP systems with peering agreements) are free, so if you can get most of
    your friends on the system you'll never have to pay to call them again..!

    Ivor
     
    Ivor Jones, Jul 10, 2006
    #16
  17. Databug

    Graham. Guest


    >Sipgate has
    > in the past had a bit of a reputation for unreliability but they have
    > improved considerably in recent months




    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>I-n-c-o-m-i-n-g-!-!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>


    ;-) Graham.

    %Profound_observation%
     
    Graham., Jul 10, 2006
    #17
  18. Databug

    Ivor Jones Guest

    "Graham." <> wrote in message
    news:44b2bec4$
    > > Sipgate has
    > > in the past had a bit of a reputation for unreliability
    > > but they have improved considerably in recent months

    >
    >
    >
    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >
    > > > > > > > > > > > I-n-c-o-m-i-n-g-!-!>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
    > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > >

    >
    > ;-) Graham.
    >
    > %Profound_observation%


    I don't understand what you mean, why the laege number of > symbols..? In
    any case, you snipped the part of my post where I said:

    >I now use them almost exclusively with very few problems


    Ivor
     
    Ivor Jones, Jul 10, 2006
    #18
  19. Databug

    Graham. Guest

    Bloody Hell Ivor, you are hard work sometimes!
    I am trying to be supportive!

    Graham.

    %Profound_observation%
     
    Graham., Jul 10, 2006
    #19
  20. Databug

    Ivor Jones Guest

    "Graham." <> wrote in message
    news:
    > Bloody Hell Ivor, you are hard work sometimes!
    > I am trying to be supportive!
    >
    > Graham.


    Sorry, as you didn't quote what you were replying to, I have no idea what
    you mean..!

    Ivor
     
    Ivor Jones, Jul 10, 2006
    #20
    1. Advertising

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