OT: Bootcamps

Discussion in 'Microsoft Certification' started by Michael D. Alligood, Mar 26, 2007.

  1. I have written an article concerning my thoughts on the subject of I.T.
    bootcamps. It can be found at
    http://certguard.com/forums/topic.asp?TID=584. Please feel free to
    respond on the CertGuard forum.

    Click on the link, read the article, register as a member, write a
    response and JOIN THE FIGHT AGAINST BRAINDUMPS, GUNMEN, AND CHEATERS.
    Remember, it is your certifications; protect them.

    --
    Michael D. Alligood
    MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+,
    Network+, i-Net+, CIW Assoc.,
    CIW Certified Instructor

    http://yetanotherblog.typepad.com/theclassroom
    Michael D. Alligood, Mar 26, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Michael D. Alligood

    Kline Sphere Guest

    >http://certguard.com/forums/topic.asp?TID=584. Please feel free to
    >respond on the CertGuard forum.


    as you posted this here, i'll reply here.

    to me the whole concept of boot camps simply add to worthlessness of
    microsoft (and some other vendors) certs. The aim of a boot camp is
    simply to get you through the exams, NOT to teach you the many, many
    real world tools, techniques, technologies and understandings required
    to fulfill ones job in IT. Whether that be as a systems analyst,
    software engineer, network admin, database admin or a help desk dude,
    these traits come only with experience.

    So given that these boot comes should only be for experienced people
    (as you put), I say what's the point? As experienced people should
    already know much about the exam(s) topics, why would such people (or
    their company) want to pay those sums of money when a few days/weeks
    study and research will do?

    imho, boot camps are just another way of churning out paper cert
    holders with no real world experience. I do pretty much understand
    where you're coming from in your article, especially the paragraph
    about 'experience', but boot camps just add to the problem, nothing
    more.

    btw, I totally distinguish between boot camps and other training
    courses. I would always recommend training courses for learning about
    new products, technologies, methodologies, etc so long as the training
    provider comes recommended. There are still out there, cowboy
    providers who offer cheap, poorly constructed courses; so always do
    research on a provider and remember, cheap does not always mean the
    best value for money.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    Kline Sphere, Mar 26, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Michael D. Alligood

    .rev [MCT] Guest

    A few points of conjecture if I may. One nice thing about experienced
    Network Engineers who are in pursuit of an MCSE may be able to get their
    office to let them go to a boot camp and not several weeks of training. They
    can disconnect from the office and dig themselves in training, and while
    they may know a lot already a boot camp often gives them new information and
    Microsoft perspectives they would not normally use in their day-to-day
    operations.

    With that said a boot camp is not for everyone and with an average passing
    rate (meaning they leave with an MCSE) is only about 30% or so it doesn't
    guarantee you will get yours when you go. I am pro-boot camp for the right
    candidate and do myself teach them from time to time. I don't give out
    answers and I don't "teach the test" either, what I try to do is take you're
    already gained knowledge and enhance it and prepare you for certification
    testing. These boot camps are unbelievably fast paced and can be an
    efficient way to gain certification. With my boot camps I provide the Sales
    Associates with a list of prerequisite questions and I review all of the
    candidates profiles before they take my camps. And if you somehow make it
    into my camp with no "real world" experience you will not make it out
    certified. Hell in some cases even having that knowledge doesn't mean you'll
    make it. I've had a few students that didn't make it all the way through.
    Usually though many of my students that don't pass all 7 exams during the
    camp have only missed one or two and with that they are MCSE in a few weeks
    past when they retake after some more self study and tutoring.

    --
    ..rev
    ..
    "It is the mark of an educated man to be able to entertain a thought without
    accepting it"
    ~Aristotle
    ..
    "Kline Sphere" <.@> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > >http://certguard.com/forums/topic.asp?TID=584. Please feel free to
    >>respond on the CertGuard forum.

    >
    > as you posted this here, i'll reply here.
    >
    > to me the whole concept of boot camps simply add to worthlessness of
    > microsoft (and some other vendors) certs. The aim of a boot camp is
    > simply to get you through the exams, NOT to teach you the many, many
    > real world tools, techniques, technologies and understandings required
    > to fulfill ones job in IT. Whether that be as a systems analyst,
    > software engineer, network admin, database admin or a help desk dude,
    > these traits come only with experience.
    >
    > So given that these boot comes should only be for experienced people
    > (as you put), I say what's the point? As experienced people should
    > already know much about the exam(s) topics, why would such people (or
    > their company) want to pay those sums of money when a few days/weeks
    > study and research will do?
    >
    > imho, boot camps are just another way of churning out paper cert
    > holders with no real world experience. I do pretty much understand
    > where you're coming from in your article, especially the paragraph
    > about 'experience', but boot camps just add to the problem, nothing
    > more.
    >
    > btw, I totally distinguish between boot camps and other training
    > courses. I would always recommend training courses for learning about
    > new products, technologies, methodologies, etc so long as the training
    > provider comes recommended. There are still out there, cowboy
    > providers who offer cheap, poorly constructed courses; so always do
    > research on a provider and remember, cheap does not always mean the
    > best value for money.
    >
    > Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    .rev [MCT], Mar 26, 2007
    #3
  4. Excellent point. Although for those "experienced I.T. professionals",
    there should be the option for accelerated learning available -- whether
    it be CLCs or bootcamps. But the latter falls into the category of
    knowing the technology and learning the new technology associated with a
    new release (e.g. Windows Server 2000 to Windows Server 2003). But I
    will agree that the general concept of bootcamps is to "get their money,
    get them in, and get them out." The concept of accelerated learning is a
    good one. But it is tarnished by many bootcamps by daggling the
    certification carrot.

    --
    Michael D. Alligood
    MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+,
    Network+, i-Net+, CIW Assoc.,
    CIW Certified Instructor

    http://yetanotherblog.typepad.com/theclassroom



    "Kline Sphere" <.@> wrote in message
    news:p:

    > >http://certguard.com/forums/topic.asp?TID=584. Please feel free to
    > >respond on the CertGuard forum.

    >
    > as you posted this here, i'll reply here.
    >
    > to me the whole concept of boot camps simply add to worthlessness of
    > microsoft (and some other vendors) certs. The aim of a boot camp is
    > simply to get you through the exams, NOT to teach you the many, many
    > real world tools, techniques, technologies and understandings required
    > to fulfill ones job in IT. Whether that be as a systems analyst,
    > software engineer, network admin, database admin or a help desk dude,
    > these traits come only with experience.
    >
    > So given that these boot comes should only be for experienced people
    > (as you put), I say what's the point? As experienced people should
    > already know much about the exam(s) topics, why would such people (or
    > their company) want to pay those sums of money when a few days/weeks
    > study and research will do?
    >
    > imho, boot camps are just another way of churning out paper cert
    > holders with no real world experience. I do pretty much understand
    > where you're coming from in your article, especially the paragraph
    > about 'experience', but boot camps just add to the problem, nothing
    > more.
    >
    > btw, I totally distinguish between boot camps and other training
    > courses. I would always recommend training courses for learning about
    > new products, technologies, methodologies, etc so long as the training
    > provider comes recommended. There are still out there, cowboy
    > providers who offer cheap, poorly constructed courses; so always do
    > research on a provider and remember, cheap does not always mean the
    > best value for money.
    >
    > Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    Michael D. Alligood, Mar 26, 2007
    #4
  5. Michael D. Alligood

    Kline Sphere Guest

    >With my boot camps I provide the Sales
    >Associates with a list of prerequisite questions and I review all of the
    >candidates profiles before they take my camps. And if you somehow make it
    >into my camp with no "real world" experience you will not make it out
    >certified.


    fair enough.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    Kline Sphere, Mar 26, 2007
    #5
  6. Michael D. Alligood

    Kline Sphere Guest

    >Excellent point. Although for those "experienced I.T. professionals",
    >there should be the option for accelerated learning available -- whether
    >it be CLCs or bootcamps. But the latter falls into the category of
    >knowing the technology and learning the new technology associated with a
    >new release (e.g. Windows Server 2000 to Windows Server 2003). But I
    >will agree that the general concept of bootcamps is to "get their money,
    >get them in, and get them out." The concept of accelerated learning is a
    >good one. But it is tarnished by many bootcamps by daggling the
    >certification carrot.


    reading the reply by the Rev, made me think about this a bit more. I
    think the Rev made some excellent points, not least: -

    I don't give out answers and I don't "teach the test"
    *and*
    my boot camps I provide the Sales Associates with a list of
    prerequisite questions and I review all of the candidates profiles
    before they take my camps

    It's a shame all boot camps don't adopted this approach. Nevertheless
    I'm still don't see the need for boot camps, experience should give
    what you need, the rest, i.e. aspects not in your day to day job role,
    can be researched. Still, everyone to their own.

    I stress again I'm totally in favor of instructor led training, just
    can't see how you can teach all the topics required to two weeks and
    remember there are many more 'topics' not covered in the exams.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    Kline Sphere, Mar 26, 2007
    #6
  7. Michael D. Alligood

    Consultant Guest

    Re: Bootcamps

    bootcamps have no place in the market for serious professionals

    /that is all

    "Michael D. Alligood" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I have written an article concerning my thoughts on the subject of I.T.
    >bootcamps. It can be found at
    >http://certguard.com/forums/topic.asp?TID=584. Please feel free to respond
    >on the CertGuard forum.
    >
    > Click on the link, read the article, register as a member, write a
    > response and JOIN THE FIGHT AGAINST BRAINDUMPS, GUNMEN, AND CHEATERS.
    > Remember, it is your certifications; protect them.
    >
    > --
    > Michael D. Alligood
    > MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+,
    > Network+, i-Net+, CIW Assoc.,
    > CIW Certified Instructor
    >
    > http://yetanotherblog.typepad.com/theclassroom
    >
    >
    Consultant, Mar 26, 2007
    #7
  8. Re: Bootcamps

    I always admired your frankness! :)

    --
    Michael D. Alligood
    MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+,
    Network+, i-Net+, CIW Assoc.,
    CIW Certified Instructor

    http://yetanotherblog.typepad.com/theclassroom



    "Consultant" <> wrote in message
    news::

    > bootcamps have no place in the market for serious professionals
    >
    > /that is all
    >
    > "Michael D. Alligood" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > >I have written an article concerning my thoughts on the subject of I.T.
    > >bootcamps. It can be found at
    > >http://certguard.com/forums/topic.asp?TID=584. Please feel free to respond
    > >on the CertGuard forum.
    > >
    > > Click on the link, read the article, register as a member, write a
    > > response and JOIN THE FIGHT AGAINST BRAINDUMPS, GUNMEN, AND CHEATERS.
    > > Remember, it is your certifications; protect them.
    > >
    > > --
    > > Michael D. Alligood
    > > MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+,
    > > Network+, i-Net+, CIW Assoc.,
    > > CIW Certified Instructor
    > >
    > > http://yetanotherblog.typepad.com/theclassroom
    > >
    > >
    Michael D. Alligood, Mar 26, 2007
    #8
  9. Michael D. Alligood

    Consultant Guest

    Re: Bootcamps

    i aim to please

    "Michael D. Alligood" <> wrote in message
    news:uFdyJA%...
    >I always admired your frankness! :)
    >
    > --
    > Michael D. Alligood
    > MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+,
    > Network+, i-Net+, CIW Assoc.,
    > CIW Certified Instructor
    >
    > http://yetanotherblog.typepad.com/theclassroom
    >
    >
    >
    > "Consultant" <> wrote in message
    > news::
    >
    >> bootcamps have no place in the market for serious professionals
    >>
    >> /that is all
    >>
    >> "Michael D. Alligood" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >> >I have written an article concerning my thoughts on the subject of I.T.
    >> >bootcamps. It can be found at
    >> >http://certguard.com/forums/topic.asp?TID=584. Please feel free to
    >> >respond
    >> >on the CertGuard forum.
    >> >
    >> > Click on the link, read the article, register as a member, write a
    >> > response and JOIN THE FIGHT AGAINST BRAINDUMPS, GUNMEN, AND CHEATERS.
    >> > Remember, it is your certifications; protect them.
    >> >
    >> > --
    >> > Michael D. Alligood
    >> > MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+,
    >> > Network+, i-Net+, CIW Assoc.,
    >> > CIW Certified Instructor
    >> >
    >> > http://yetanotherblog.typepad.com/theclassroom
    >> >
    >> >

    >
    Consultant, Mar 26, 2007
    #9
  10. Michael D. Alligood

    catwalker63 Guest

    Re: Bootcamps

    Michael D. Alligood piffled away vaguely:

    > I always admired your frankness! :)
    >

    Don't call him Frank. That's not his name. ;)
    --

    Catwalker
    aka Pu$$y Feet
    BS, MCSA, MCSE
    MCNGP #43
    www.mcngp.com
    "Definitely not wearing any underwear."
    catwalker63, Mar 26, 2007
    #10
  11. Michael D. Alligood

    Kline Sphere Guest

    Re: Bootcamps

    >bootcamps have no place in the market for serious professionals
    >
    >/that is all


    now, now, we'll have done of that kinda talk around here. after all
    what would your buddy James Carrion have to say ;-)

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    Kline Sphere, Mar 27, 2007
    #11
  12. Michael D. Alligood

    kpg Guest

    Re: Bootcamps

    catwalker63 <> wrote in
    news::

    > Michael D. Alligood piffled away vaguely:
    >
    >> I always admired your frankness! :)
    >>

    > Don't call him Frank. That's not his name. ;)


    Shirley you jest?
    kpg, Mar 27, 2007
    #12
  13. "Nevertheless I'm still don't see the need for boot camps"
    --

    A potential benefit of a boot camp (although I haven't attended any
    personally) is the same as certification: exposure to a breadth of subject
    matter within an area of technology. Most people (I know this is my
    experience) in their daily jobs become very knowledgeable about certain areas
    of technology they work with a lot, but rarely are knowledgeable about the
    entire range of topics surrounding a technology. Certification forces one to
    have some level of knowledge about all the relevant topics surrounding the
    subject matter and boot camps condense that into a short period of time to
    make it practical for professionals to attend and more likely for candidate
    to remember the material for the tests.

    How well the material is retained after the boot camp/tests is another
    matter and would be interesting to know.

    Jim Anderson, MCSD
    Consultant
    Columbus, Ohio

    ---

    "Kline Sphere" wrote:

    > >Excellent point. Although for those "experienced I.T. professionals",
    > >there should be the option for accelerated learning available -- whether
    > >it be CLCs or bootcamps. But the latter falls into the category of
    > >knowing the technology and learning the new technology associated with a
    > >new release (e.g. Windows Server 2000 to Windows Server 2003). But I
    > >will agree that the general concept of bootcamps is to "get their money,
    > >get them in, and get them out." The concept of accelerated learning is a
    > >good one. But it is tarnished by many bootcamps by daggling the
    > >certification carrot.

    >
    > reading the reply by the Rev, made me think about this a bit more. I
    > think the Rev made some excellent points, not least: -
    >
    > I don't give out answers and I don't "teach the test"
    > *and*
    > my boot camps I provide the Sales Associates with a list of
    > prerequisite questions and I review all of the candidates profiles
    > before they take my camps
    >
    > It's a shame all boot camps don't adopted this approach. Nevertheless
    > I'm still don't see the need for boot camps, experience should give
    > what you need, the rest, i.e. aspects not in your day to day job role,
    > can be researched. Still, everyone to their own.
    >
    > I stress again I'm totally in favor of instructor led training, just
    > can't see how you can teach all the topics required to two weeks and
    > remember there are many more 'topics' not covered in the exams.
    >
    > Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    >
    =?Utf-8?B?SmltIEFuZGVyc29u?=, Mar 28, 2007
    #13
  14. Re: Bootcamps

    And succinctness.
    --
    Jim Anderson, MCSD
    Consultant
    Columbus, Ohio


    "Michael D. Alligood" wrote:

    > I always admired your frankness! :)
    >
    > --
    > Michael D. Alligood
    > MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+,
    > Network+, i-Net+, CIW Assoc.,
    > CIW Certified Instructor
    >
    > http://yetanotherblog.typepad.com/theclassroom
    >
    >
    >
    > "Consultant" <> wrote in message
    > news::
    >
    > > bootcamps have no place in the market for serious professionals
    > >
    > > /that is all
    > >
    > > "Michael D. Alligood" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > > >I have written an article concerning my thoughts on the subject of I.T.
    > > >bootcamps. It can be found at
    > > >http://certguard.com/forums/topic.asp?TID=584. Please feel free to respond
    > > >on the CertGuard forum.
    > > >
    > > > Click on the link, read the article, register as a member, write a
    > > > response and JOIN THE FIGHT AGAINST BRAINDUMPS, GUNMEN, AND CHEATERS.
    > > > Remember, it is your certifications; protect them.
    > > >
    > > > --
    > > > Michael D. Alligood
    > > > MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+,
    > > > Network+, i-Net+, CIW Assoc.,
    > > > CIW Certified Instructor
    > > >
    > > > http://yetanotherblog.typepad.com/theclassroom
    > > >
    > > >

    >
    >
    =?Utf-8?B?SmltIEFuZGVyc29u?=, Mar 28, 2007
    #14
  15. Michael D. Alligood

    Kline Sphere Guest

    >A potential benefit of a boot camp (although I haven't attended any
    >personally) is the same as certification: exposure to a breadth of subject
    >matter within an area of technology.


    at a basic level perhaps. these type of exams do prove the taker as
    the real world experience, imho this is the problem with these type of
    exams.

    > Most people (I know this is my
    >experience) in their daily jobs become very knowledgeable about certain areas
    >of technology they work with a lot, but rarely are knowledgeable about the
    >entire range of topics surrounding a technology. Certification forces one to
    >have some level of knowledge about all the relevant topics surrounding the
    >subject matter and boot camps condense that into a short period of time to
    >make it practical for professionals to attend and more likely for candidate
    >to remember the material for the tests.


    my point is simple. if you're an experienced professional who uses the
    product(s) on a day to day basis, you will already understand many of
    the exam topics. thus, for such people it would easy to research the
    topics which you do not use on a day to day basis, so for such people
    there should be no need for 'boot camps' whose only purpose is to get
    you through the exams. There is far more in the 'real world' than is
    covered in these exams.

    These type of Certification do not force one to
    have some level of knowledge about all the relevant topics, because
    people can and do cheat either through brain dumps/corrupt 'practice'
    test providers or unscrupulous boot camps. the problem here is the
    type of exams, it is easy for people to cheat.

    >How well the material is retained after the boot camp/tests is another
    >matter and would be interesting to know.


    from my own experience, in order to pass these type of exams i've had
    to study many topics which are not part of my day to day job. my
    method of study allowed me to learn far more than was covered in the
    exam topics. without question this has allowed me to perform my
    various roles in a more proficient manner.

    the retention of any information is enhanced if you put that
    information to use throughout your life. if you have truly learnt the
    subject matter and not just 'learnt' how to 'pick the right answer',
    that information will have already been well established in your
    brain. Naturally over time you will forget the more finer grained
    points but not the overall concept. There are still areas which i
    studied at university, that i have never encounter in my working life,
    which i can still remember today - almost thirty years later!

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    Kline Sphere, Mar 28, 2007
    #15
  16. Re: Bootcamps

    And I thought I was reading this for some intelligent information on where I
    might go to get some education on certs! What a waste of time! The whole
    concept of these groups is to inform, educate, provide insight from
    expierenced professionals.

    "Kline Sphere" wrote:

    > >bootcamps have no place in the market for serious professionals
    > >
    > >/that is all

    >
    > now, now, we'll have done of that kinda talk around here. after all
    > what would your buddy James Carrion have to say ;-)
    >
    > Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    >
    =?Utf-8?B?ZnJlZGZhcmt3YXRlcg==?=, May 10, 2007
    #16
  17. Michael D. Alligood

    Consultant Guest

    Re: Bootcamps

    come back soon!

    "fredfarkwater" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > And I thought I was reading this for some intelligent information on where
    > I
    > might go to get some education on certs! What a waste of time! The whole
    > concept of these groups is to inform, educate, provide insight from
    > expierenced professionals.
    >
    > "Kline Sphere" wrote:
    >
    >> >bootcamps have no place in the market for serious professionals
    >> >
    >> >/that is all

    >>
    >> now, now, we'll have done of that kinda talk around here. after all
    >> what would your buddy James Carrion have to say ;-)
    >>
    >> Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    >>
    Consultant, May 10, 2007
    #17
  18. Re: Bootcamps

    "fredfarkwater" <> wrote in
    message news::

    > And I thought I was reading this for some intelligent information on
    > where I
    > might go to get some education on certs! What a waste of time! The
    > whole
    > concept of these groups is to inform, educate, provide insight from
    > expierenced professionals.
    > >


    I do not see your original post? What was your question regarding
    bootcamps?
    --
    Michael D. Alligood, MCSA, MCDST
    The I.T. Classroom - http://www.theitclassroom.com/
    CertGuard - http://www.certguard.com
    Michael D. Alligood [CertGuard], May 10, 2007
    #18
  19. Michael D. Alligood

    catwalker63 Guest

    Re: Bootcamps

    Consultant piffled away vaguely:
    >
    > "fredfarkwater" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> And I thought I was reading this for some intelligent information on where
    >> I might go to get some education on certs! What a waste of time! The whole
    >> concept of these groups is to inform, educate, provide insight from
    >> expierenced professionals.
    >>

    > come back soon!


    Yes, please do. We are having our half-price stuffed shirt sale.
    Everything must go!!
    --

    Catwalker
    MCNGP #43
    www.mcngp.com
    "I have a gun. It's loaded. Shut up."
    catwalker63, May 10, 2007
    #19
  20. Re: Bootcamps

    fredfarkwater wrote:
    > And I thought I was reading this for some intelligent information on where I
    > might go to get some education on certs! What a waste of time! The whole
    > concept of these groups is to inform, educate, provide insight from
    > expierenced professionals.


    I don't know why they named you that either. Sorry...

    --
    Jonathan Roberts
    MCTS: SQL Server 2005, MCP

    Information on MS VHD Images: http://tinyurl.com/y5bozl
    Great MS Blog: http://blogs.msdn.com/trika/default.aspx
    Feedback on 70-431 Exam: http://www.jonathanroberts.eu/?p=6
    Jonathan Roberts, May 11, 2007
    #20
    1. Advertising

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