orcon plans (new ones)

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Zipper, Oct 10, 2006.

  1. Zipper

    Zipper Guest

    So Orcon have given some hint on new plans
    http://www.orcon.net.nz/content/view/225/152/

    Nothing on the costings, basically saying that people on 3.5/512 will go
    fullspeed (like every other ISP).

    I want to know what will happen to the 256/128 "broadband" plans like
    the advanced 40 that a lot of people are on. I am hoping that goes to
    3.5/128 or even better 3.5/512.

    The good news is that Orcon are saying that you will be able to request
    to have interleaving turned off!! thats 30-40 ms less latency!! big deal
    for voip and online gaming!, that will be great.
     
    Zipper, Oct 10, 2006
    #1
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  2. Zipper

    Alan Guest

    "Zipper" <> wrote in message
    news:452afb4d$...
    > So Orcon have given some hint on new plans
    > http://www.orcon.net.nz/content/view/225/152/
    >
    > Nothing on the costings, basically saying that people on 3.5/512
    > will go fullspeed (like every other ISP).
    >
    > I want to know what will happen to the 256/128 "broadband" plans
    > like the advanced 40 that a lot of people are on. I am hoping that
    > goes to 3.5/128 or even better 3.5/512.
    >
    > The good news is that Orcon are saying that you will be able to
    > request to have interleaving turned off!! thats 30-40 ms less
    > latency!! big deal for voip and online gaming!, that will be great.
    >


    What is (the purpose of) interleaving?

    Why do they have it on by default in the first place?

    Thanks,

    Alan.
    --

    The views expressed are my own, and not those of my employer or anyone
    else associated with me.

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    Alan, Oct 10, 2006
    #2
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  3. Alan wrote:
    > What is (the purpose of) interleaving?
    >
    > Why do they have it on by default in the first place?


    It improves the reliability of the connection, apparently.

    I shall be having it switched off, because the unreliable part of ADSL
    isn't the connection, it is usually the ISP. That and I use VoIP, so
    reduced latency is a good thing.

    The Other Guy
     
    The Other Guy, Oct 10, 2006
    #3
  4. Zipper

    Alan Guest

    "The Other Guy" <> wrote in message
    news:egevhp$fbm$...
    > Alan wrote:
    > > What is (the purpose of) interleaving?
    >>
    >> Why do they have it on by default in the first place?

    >
    > It improves the reliability of the connection, apparently.
    >
    > I shall be having it switched off, because the unreliable part of
    > ADSL isn't the connection, it is usually the ISP. That and I use
    > VoIP, so reduced latency is a good thing.
    >
    > The Other Guy
    >


    I guess that the better quality of physical connection you have, the
    less benefit of having interleaving turned on?

    If so, is there any way to test the quality of a line? Is that
    something that a prospective ISP could do?

    Thanks,

    Alan.
    --

    The views expressed are my own, and not those of my employer or anyone
    else associated with me.

    My current valid email address is:



    This is valid as is. It is not munged, or altered at all.

    It will be valid for AT LEAST one month from the date of this post.

    If you are trying to contact me after that time,
    it MAY still be valid, but may also have been
    deactivated due to spam. If so, and you want
    to contact me by email, try searching for a
    more recent post by me to find my current
    email address.

    The following is a (probably!) totally unique
    and meaningless string of characters that you
    can use to find posts by me in a search engine:

    ewygchvboocno43vb674b6nq46tvb
     
    Alan, Oct 10, 2006
    #4
  5. Zipper

    whome Guest

    "The Other Guy" <> wrote in message
    news:egevhp$fbm$...
    > Alan wrote:
    > > What is (the purpose of) interleaving?
    >>
    >> Why do they have it on by default in the first place?

    >
    > It improves the reliability of the connection, apparently.
    >
    > I shall be having it switched off, because the unreliable part of ADSL
    > isn't the connection, it is usually the ISP. That and I use VoIP, so
    > reduced latency is a good thing.
    >
    > The Other Guy


    Now, what will happen if some data is corrupted and interleaving is off?
    Does the tcp error correction protocol recover?
     
    whome, Oct 10, 2006
    #5
  6. Zipper

    Alan Guest

    "whome" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > "The Other Guy" <> wrote in message
    > news:egevhp$fbm$...
    >> Alan wrote:
    >> > What is (the purpose of) interleaving?
    >>>
    >>> Why do they have it on by default in the first place?

    >>
    >> It improves the reliability of the connection, apparently.
    >>
    >> I shall be having it switched off, because the unreliable part of
    >> ADSL isn't the connection, it is usually the ISP. That and I use
    >> VoIP, so reduced latency is a good thing.
    >>
    >> The Other Guy

    >
    > Now, what will happen if some data is corrupted and interleaving is
    > off? Does the tcp error correction protocol recover?
    >


    VOIP wouldn't use TCP would it? I imagine it would use UDP for speed
    / reduced overhead and if something gets lost, then it would just
    ignore and carry on (come out as a pop or whatever in the audio)?

    Or do you mean for TCP connections for non VOIP applications? TCP
    will always perform it error correction functions despite this
    interleaving thing being on or off - I cannot see how it wouldn't, but
    I stand ready to be corrected!

    Alan.
    --

    The views expressed are my own, and not those of my employer or anyone
    else associated with me.

    My current valid email address is:



    This is valid as is. It is not munged, or altered at all.

    It will be valid for AT LEAST one month from the date of this post.

    If you are trying to contact me after that time,
    it MAY still be valid, but may also have been
    deactivated due to spam. If so, and you want
    to contact me by email, try searching for a
    more recent post by me to find my current
    email address.

    The following is a (probably!) totally unique
    and meaningless string of characters that you
    can use to find posts by me in a search engine:

    ewygchvboocno43vb674b6nq46tvb
     
    Alan, Oct 10, 2006
    #6
  7. Zipper

    Zipper Guest

    Alan wrote:
    > "The Other Guy" <> wrote in message
    > news:egevhp$fbm$...
    >> Alan wrote:
    >> > What is (the purpose of) interleaving?
    >>> Why do they have it on by default in the first place?

    >> It improves the reliability of the connection, apparently.
    >>
    >> I shall be having it switched off, because the unreliable part of
    >> ADSL isn't the connection, it is usually the ISP. That and I use
    >> VoIP, so reduced latency is a good thing.
    >>
    >> The Other Guy
    >>

    >
    > I guess that the better quality of physical connection you have, the
    > less benefit of having interleaving turned on?


    Correct.

    In fact in the UK BT have interleaving off by default as they deem it
    only necessary in a very small amount of cases where the line quality is
    very bad. Perhaps their network is healthier than ours but more than
    likely it is off here because Telecom did not want VOIP to function well.

    >
    > If so, is there any way to test the quality of a line? Is that
    > something that a prospective ISP could do?


    I am not sure on that, there is definitely a way of testing it though as
    I have seemn people talking about measureable errors in some forums.

    >
    > Thanks,
    >
    > Alan.
     
    Zipper, Oct 10, 2006
    #7
  8. Zipper

    -=rjh=- Guest

    Zipper wrote:
    > So Orcon have given some hint on new plans
    > http://www.orcon.net.nz/content/view/225/152/
    >
    > Nothing on the costings, basically saying that people on 3.5/512 will go
    > fullspeed (like every other ISP).
    >
    > I want to know what will happen to the 256/128 "broadband" plans like
    > the advanced 40 that a lot of people are on. I am hoping that goes to
    > 3.5/128 or even better 3.5/512.


    I think that's being a little optimistic, but you never know.

    I'd be extremely happy if it went to just 512/256/40 or even 512/512/40
    - at the same or similar price, of course.

    I use internet *a lot* but don't see much need for full speed, prefer to
    have faster speed up instead.
     
    -=rjh=-, Oct 10, 2006
    #8
  9. Zipper

    Zipper Guest

    -=rjh=- wrote:
    > Zipper wrote:
    >> So Orcon have given some hint on new plans
    >> http://www.orcon.net.nz/content/view/225/152/
    >>
    >> Nothing on the costings, basically saying that people on 3.5/512 will
    >> go fullspeed (like every other ISP).
    >>
    >> I want to know what will happen to the 256/128 "broadband" plans like
    >> the advanced 40 that a lot of people are on. I am hoping that goes to
    >> 3.5/128 or even better 3.5/512.

    >
    > I think that's being a little optimistic, but you never know.


    You are probably right.

    >
    > I'd be extremely happy if it went to just 512/256/40 or even 512/512/40
    > - at the same or similar price, of course.


    Is it even possible for an ISP to offer xxx/256?
    I don't think they can. For some reason Telecom don't seem to want to
    let ISP's offer 256 up, its either 128 or fullspeed.. seems a bit strange..


    >
    > I use internet *a lot* but don't see much need for full speed, prefer to
    > have faster speed up instead.


    As would I, but at this stage I would settle for an improvement on the
    40 gig orcon plan which these days is looking pretty ancient in terms of
    speed both down and up.

    We will see.... Fingers crossed..
     
    Zipper, Oct 10, 2006
    #9
  10. Zipper wrote:
    > Is it even possible for an ISP to offer xxx/256?
    > I don't think they can. For some reason Telecom don't seem to want to
    > let ISP's offer 256 up, its either 128 or fullspeed.. seems a bit strange..


    Nope, it is either 128k up or 512k up. No option for full speed
    upstream. ADSL can't go much faster than that upstream.

    The Other Guy
     
    The Other Guy, Oct 10, 2006
    #10
  11. Zipper

    Zipper Guest

    The Other Guy wrote:
    > Zipper wrote:
    >> Is it even possible for an ISP to offer xxx/256?
    >> I don't think they can. For some reason Telecom don't seem to want to
    >> let ISP's offer 256 up, its either 128 or fullspeed.. seems a bit
    >> strange..

    >
    > Nope, it is either 128k up or 512k up. No option for full speed
    > upstream. ADSL can't go much faster than that upstream.
    >
    > The Other Guy


    I meant on the new plans, Telecom are changing any plans with 512
    upstream currently to fullstream up.
     
    Zipper, Oct 10, 2006
    #11
  12. In message <egf3dj$lue$>, Alan wrote:

    > TCP will always perform it error correction functions despite this
    > interleaving thing being on or off - I cannot see how it wouldn't, but
    > I stand ready to be corrected!


    TCP performs error detection, not correction. It sends a NAK instead of an
    ACK response, meaning "I didn't get that, please resend".
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Oct 10, 2006
    #12
  13. Zipper

    Alan Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    message news:egfpvn$v77$...
    > In message <egf3dj$lue$>, Alan wrote:
    >
    >> TCP will always perform it error correction functions despite this
    >> interleaving thing being on or off - I cannot see how it wouldn't,
    >> but
    >> I stand ready to be corrected!

    >
    > TCP performs error detection, not correction. It sends a NAK instead
    > of an
    > ACK response, meaning "I didn't get that, please resend".
    >


    What is the purpose of the NAK if not to get the corrupted / lost
    packet(s) resent in order to facilitate the correction of the data
    stream?

    Isn't detection simply one part of the correction mechanism or am I
    misunderstanding what you are saying?

    Thanks,

    Alan.
    --

    The views expressed are my own, and not those of my employer or anyone
    else associated with me.

    My current valid email address is:



    This is valid as is. It is not munged, or altered at all.

    It will be valid for AT LEAST one month from the date of this post.

    If you are trying to contact me after that time,
    it MAY still be valid, but may also have been
    deactivated due to spam. If so, and you want
    to contact me by email, try searching for a
    more recent post by me to find my current
    email address.

    The following is a (probably!) totally unique
    and meaningless string of characters that you
    can use to find posts by me in a search engine:

    ewygchvboocno43vb674b6nq46tvb
     
    Alan, Oct 10, 2006
    #13
  14. Zipper

    Jerry Guest

    Alan wrote:
    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    > message news:egfpvn$v77$...
    >
    >>In message <egf3dj$lue$>, Alan wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>TCP will always perform it error correction functions despite this
    >>>interleaving thing being on or off - I cannot see how it wouldn't,
    >>>but
    >>>I stand ready to be corrected!

    >>
    >>TCP performs error detection, not correction. It sends a NAK instead
    >>of an
    >>ACK response, meaning "I didn't get that, please resend".
    >>

    >
    >
    > What is the purpose of the NAK if not to get the corrupted / lost
    > packet(s) resent in order to facilitate the correction of the data
    > stream?
    >
    > Isn't detection simply one part of the correction mechanism or am I
    > misunderstanding what you are saying?


    Resending data isn't correcting it, the corrupted data is thrown away.
    With error correction the data along with the checkbits are analysed,
    and the original data is corrected.
     
    Jerry, Oct 10, 2006
    #14
  15. Zipper

    whome Guest

    "Jerry" <> wrote in message
    news:452c1725$...
    > Alan wrote:
    >> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    >> news:egfpvn$v77$...
    >>
    >>>In message <egf3dj$lue$>, Alan wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>TCP will always perform it error correction functions despite this
    >>>>interleaving thing being on or off - I cannot see how it wouldn't, but
    >>>>I stand ready to be corrected!
    >>>
    >>>TCP performs error detection, not correction. It sends a NAK instead of
    >>>an
    >>>ACK response, meaning "I didn't get that, please resend".
    >>>

    >>
    >>
    >> What is the purpose of the NAK if not to get the corrupted / lost
    >> packet(s) resent in order to facilitate the correction of the data
    >> stream?
    >>
    >> Isn't detection simply one part of the correction mechanism or am I
    >> misunderstanding what you are saying?

    >
    > Resending data isn't correcting it, the corrupted data is thrown away.
    > With error correction the data along with the checkbits are analysed, and
    > the original data is corrected.


    So, my question:

    Is there a higher chance that a file downloaded through the internet will be
    corrupt when ADSL interleaving is switched off?

    I was hoping that perhaps some other protocol would mean there is no
    increased chance of corruption. Seems to me that interleaving is
    unnecessary when there are other protocols that perform error detection and
    recovery.
     
    whome, Oct 11, 2006
    #15
  16. Zipper

    ChrisOD Guest

    In article <452c1725$>, Jerry wrote:
    > Alan wrote:
    >> "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    >> message news:egfpvn$v77$...
    >>
    >>>In message <egf3dj$lue$>, Alan wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>TCP will always perform it error correction functions despite this
    >>>>interleaving thing being on or off - I cannot see how it wouldn't,
    >>>>but
    >>>>I stand ready to be corrected!
    >>>
    >>>TCP performs error detection, not correction. It sends a NAK instead
    >>>of an
    >>>ACK response, meaning "I didn't get that, please resend".
    >>>

    >>
    >>
    >> What is the purpose of the NAK if not to get the corrupted / lost
    >> packet(s) resent in order to facilitate the correction of the data
    >> stream?
    >>
    >> Isn't detection simply one part of the correction mechanism or am I
    >> misunderstanding what you are saying?

    >
    > Resending data isn't correcting it, the corrupted data is thrown away.
    > With error correction the data along with the checkbits are analysed,
    > and the original data is corrected.


    I thought that was "Forward Error Correction". TCP's resend of data is a
    type of error correction. A type that in a reasonably high quality link
    is much more bandwidth friendly than FEC. The problem with TCP comes in
    low quality links where a significant fraction of the data is lost,
    causing a large part to be resent and then some of that is lost etc.
     
    ChrisOD, Oct 11, 2006
    #16
  17. In message <>, whome wrote:

    > So, my question:
    >
    > Is there a higher chance that a file downloaded through the internet will
    > be corrupt when ADSL interleaving is switched off?


    Theoretically, I would have to say yes. TCP checksumming is quite
    simple--has to be, otherwise it would be too slow. So if bits can be
    corrupted on the wire, then there is a small chance that a bad packet gets
    through with a valid checksum.

    This is one reason why it's common practice for open-source sites, at least,
    to publish fingerprints of their archive files, that you can verify against
    your downloaded copy to ensure it's an exact copy.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Oct 11, 2006
    #17
  18. Zipper

    Dave Taylor Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote in
    news:eghs1b$o6i$:

    > Theoretically, I would have to say yes. TCP checksumming is quite
    > simple--has to be, otherwise it would be too slow. So if bits can be
    > corrupted on the wire, then there is a small chance that a bad packet
    > gets through with a valid checksum.
    >
    > This is one reason why it's common practice for open-source sites, at
    > least, to publish fingerprints of their archive files, that you can
    > verify against your downloaded copy to ensure it's an exact copy.
    >
    >


    TTL comes into play also. NACK is no good if TTL expired IIRC.
    So I would not rely on TCP to transmit good data. I agree that is why we
    have MD5 and other checksumming.

    --
    Ciao, Dave
     
    Dave Taylor, Oct 11, 2006
    #18
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