"Open source is a software capitalist's supreme tool"

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC), Dec 22, 2007.

  1. http://redmondmag.com/features/article.asp?EditorialsID=2395

    "Open source is a software capitalist's supreme tool," says Matt Asay,
    vice president of business development with Alfresco Software Inc., an
    open source enterprise content management company. "It enables vendors to
    align closely with their customers and prospects while simultaneously
    undermining competitors' efforts to charge license fees for their own
    products. It's one that Google has been using to good effect in toppling
    20th-century software businesses."

    Given the above, who can say there isn't money to be made using OSS?


    --
    Smoking Causes Lung Cancer

    "The IT industry landscape is littered with the dead
    dreams of people who once trusted Microsoft."
    Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC), Dec 22, 2007
    #1
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  2. Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)

    Cadae Guest

    "Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > http://redmondmag.com/features/article.asp?EditorialsID=2395
    >
    > "Open source is a software capitalist's supreme tool," says Matt Asay,
    > vice president of business development with Alfresco Software Inc., an
    > open source enterprise content management company. "It enables vendors to
    > align closely with their customers and prospects while simultaneously
    > undermining competitors' efforts to charge license fees for their own
    > products. It's one that Google has been using to good effect in toppling
    > 20th-century software businesses."
    >
    > Given the above, who can say there isn't money to be made using OSS?
    >


    Me. Open source devalues the effort of writing software, and instead
    provides monetary reward for indirect effort such as training, support and
    deployment. Not a problem if you're a government or large business that can
    cross-fund, but a small programming shop's OSS efforts and monetary reward
    can be easily usurped by a larger support organisation.


    PC
    Cadae, Dec 22, 2007
    #2
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  3. In article <>, Cadae did write:

    > Me. Open source devalues the effort of writing software...


    Oh dear, how sad for you. Boo-Hoo, you poor loser!

    Estimate: 10% of the world's software is now Open Source, and growth in the
    Open Source market is accelerating
    <http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2007/12/21/red_hat_new_ceo/>.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Dec 22, 2007
    #3
  4. Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)

    impossible Guest

    "Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > http://redmondmag.com/features/article.asp?EditorialsID=2395
    >
    > "Open source is a software capitalist's supreme tool," says Matt Asay,
    > vice president of business development with Alfresco Software Inc., an
    > open source enterprise content management company. "It enables vendors to
    > align closely with their customers and prospects while simultaneously
    > undermining competitors' efforts to charge license fees for their own
    > products. It's one that Google has been using to good effect in toppling
    > 20th-century software businesses."
    >
    > Given the above, who can say there isn't money to be made using OSS?
    >
    >


    And where can I download the source code for Google's moneymakers? It's
    search engine? Its online applications? Oh, wait, I can't -- because these
    are proprietary, not open source. So, ok, I get it -- if you don't pay for
    your server software (and punters have capitalized your operation to the
    tune of US$217b), you can afford to hire programmers who will develop the
    proprietary applications you need to make money. Sounds like a plan.
    impossible, Dec 22, 2007
    #4
  5. In article <ry0bj.263138$Fc.198919@attbi_s21>, impossible did write:

    > And where can I download the source code for Google's moneymakers?


    <http://code.google.com/opensource/>
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Dec 22, 2007
    #5
  6. Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)

    impossible Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:fki3o7$st1$...
    > In article <>, Cadae did write:
    >
    >> Me. Open source devalues the effort of writing software...

    >
    > Oh dear, how sad for you. Boo-Hoo, you poor loser!
    >
    > Estimate: 10% of the world's software is now Open Source, and growth in
    > the
    > Open Source market is accelerating
    > <http://www.regdeveloper.co.uk/2007/12/21/red_hat_new_ceo/>.


    Nothing new there -- open source has a well-established base in the server
    market. And the Apache and Samba projects earned how much this year? As I
    understand it, the key developers on these projects went to work for Google,
    which (in case you hadn't noticed) makes its money from proprietary secrets
    like search engine optimization.
    impossible, Dec 22, 2007
    #6
  7. Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)

    impossible Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:fki4uf$st1$...
    > In article <ry0bj.263138$Fc.198919@attbi_s21>, impossible did write:
    >
    >> And where can I download the source code for Google's moneymakers? It's
    >> search engine? Its online applications?

    >
    > <http://code.google.com/opensource/>



    And where can I download the source code for Google's moneymakers? It's
    search engine? Its online applications?
    impossible, Dec 22, 2007
    #7
  8. Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)

    impossible Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:fki4uf$st1$...
    > In article <ry0bj.263138$Fc.198919@attbi_s21>, impossible did write:
    >
    >> And where can I download the source code for Google's moneymakers? It's
    >> search engine? Its online applications?

    >
    > <http://code.google.com/opensource/>



    And where can I download the source code for Google's moneymakers? It's
    search engine? Its online applications?
    impossible, Dec 22, 2007
    #8
  9. On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:46:21 +1300, Cadae wrote:

    >> Given the above, who can say there isn't money to be made using OSS?
    >>
    >>

    > Me. Open source devalues the effort of writing software, and instead
    > provides monetary reward for indirect effort such as training, support
    > and deployment.


    As it should be!


    --
    Smoking Causes Lung Cancer

    "The IT industry landscape is littered with the dead
    dreams of people who once trusted Microsoft."
    Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC), Dec 22, 2007
    #9
  10. In article <yL0bj.263169$Fc.177198@attbi_s21>, impossible did write:

    > "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    > news:fki4uf$st1$...
    >> In article <ry0bj.263138$Fc.198919@attbi_s21>, impossible did write:
    >>
    >>> And where can I download the source code for Google's moneymakers? It's
    >>> search engine? Its online applications?

    >>
    >> <http://code.google.com/opensource/>

    >
    > And where can I download the source code for Google's moneymakers?


    Meaningless question--you DO realize Google doesn't make money from
    software, but from advertising, don't you?
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Dec 22, 2007
    #10
  11. Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)

    impossible Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:fkiane$1f6$...
    "impossible" <> wrote in message
    news:ry0bj.263138$Fc.198919@attbi_s21...
    >> "Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)" <> wrote in
    >> message
    >> news:p...
    >>> http://redmondmag.com/features/article.asp?EditorialsID=2395
    >>>
    >>> "Open source is a software capitalist's supreme tool," says Matt Asay,
    >>> vice president of business development with Alfresco Software Inc., an
    >>> open source enterprise content management company. "It enables vendors
    >>> to
    >>> align closely with their customers and prospects while simultaneously
    >>> undermining competitors' efforts to charge license fees for their own
    >>> products. It's one that Google has been using to good effect in toppling
    >>> 20th-century software businesses."
    >>>
    >>> Given the above, who can say there isn't money to be made using OSS?
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >> And where can I download the source code for Google's moneymakers? It's
    >> search engine? Its online applications? Oh, wait, I can't -- because
    >> these
    >> are proprietary, not open source. So, ok, I get it -- if you don't pay
    >> for
    >> your server software (and punters have capitalized your operation to the
    >> tune of US$217b), you can afford to hire programmers who will develop the
    >> proprietary applications you need to make money. Sounds like a plan.
    >>
    >>


    <<http://code.google.com/opensource/>

    >> And where can I download the source code for Google's moneymakers? It's
    >> search engine? Its online applications?


    > Meaningless question--you DO realize Google doesn't make money from
    > software, but from advertising, don't you?


    You do know that the way Google attracts advertisers is by offering users
    access to its proprietary, as opposed to open source, search engine? And
    that the way Google attempts to attract even more advertising revenue is by
    offering users accesss to its proprietary, as opposed to open source, GMail,
    Google Groups, Google Docs, etc? Right? So how then do you square these
    facts with the OP's claim that open source is Google's "supreme tool"? I
    mean, anyone can download Apache or Samba and use them as their server
    software -- that hardly explains why Google is worth in excess of US$200b
    and you're not. What Google has to sell to advertisers is what it owns --
    its web-based applications built from an exceptional store of intellectual
    property. Oh, and if you doubt that Google takes the concept of
    "intellectual property" seriously, just browse through one of its Google
    Docs licenses -- very Microsoftish.
    impossible, Dec 22, 2007
    #11
  12. Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)

    Cadae Guest

    "Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 16:46:21 +1300, Cadae wrote:
    >
    >>> Given the above, who can say there isn't money to be made using OSS?
    >>>
    >>>

    >> Me. Open source devalues the effort of writing software, and instead
    >> provides monetary reward for indirect effort such as training, support
    >> and deployment.

    >
    > As it should be!
    >


    So programmers shouln't be paid ?

    PC
    Cadae, Dec 22, 2007
    #12
  13. On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 22:31:13 +1300, Cadae wrote:

    >>> Me. Open source devalues the effort of writing software, and instead
    >>> provides monetary reward for indirect effort such as training, support
    >>> and deployment.

    >>
    >> As it should be!
    >>
    >>

    > So programmers shouln't be paid ?


    Why should they not be paid if they're employed?


    --
    Smoking Causes Lung Cancer

    "The IT industry landscape is littered with the dead
    dreams of people who once trusted Microsoft."
    Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC), Dec 22, 2007
    #13
  14. Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)

    Cadae Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in message
    news:fki3o7$st1$...
    > In article <>, Cadae did write:
    >
    >> Me. Open source devalues the effort of writing software...

    >
    > Oh dear, how sad for you. Boo-Hoo, you poor loser!


    By this childish insult, I take it you agree open source devalues the effort
    of writing software ? From a Capitalist perspective (a la the OP) this will,
    in the long run, end in a loss of programming outputs - thus invalidating
    the OP's claim that riches will be found in OSS, as there will be no
    programmers or development teams left who can afford the effort to write the
    software for free - they'll all have migrated to non-Open Source software
    where programming effort is rewarded.

    > Estimate: 10% of the world's software is now Open Source, and growth in
    > the
    > Open Source market is accelerating


    Thank goodness there's real money to be made writing non-Open Source
    software.



    PC
    Cadae, Dec 22, 2007
    #14
  15. Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)

    Cadae Guest

    "Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > On Sat, 22 Dec 2007 22:31:13 +1300, Cadae wrote:
    >
    >>>> Me. Open source devalues the effort of writing software, and instead
    >>>> provides monetary reward for indirect effort such as training, support
    >>>> and deployment.
    >>>
    >>> As it should be!
    >>>
    >>>

    >> So programmers shouln't be paid ?

    >
    > Why should they not be paid if they're employed?
    >


    Most commercial OSS organisation make money from support and training, thus
    software development gets devalued - the value is shifted to support and
    training. A natural result of this is to try to make the production of
    software as cheap as possible, usually by off-shoring of programming to
    cheap (and nasty) development teams overseas, or to goverment funded (i.e.
    taxpayer funded) teams - this puts commercial programmers out of a job.

    The better job programmers do of designing easy to use, easy to maintain and
    bug-free code, the worse the returns to the commercial OSS organisation (in
    well designed and coded programs, there's less demand for support and
    training). OSS encourages bad design and poor reliability because mending
    these problems is how OSS organisations make their money.

    The net result is a decline in standards, pay and employment for
    programmers.

    Much OSS code is developed by government subsidies of one kind or another.
    The output from these unfairly competes with commercial businesses, putting
    productive (i.e. non-taxpayer funded) programmers out of a job.

    Hardly a "capitalist's supreme tool" - more like a "socialists supreme
    tool".


    PC
    Cadae, Dec 22, 2007
    #15
  16. On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 00:52:18 +1300, Cadae wrote:

    > Most commercial OSS organisation make money from support and training,


    Correct - and exactly as it should be.


    > thus software development gets devalued


    Bullshit! Who wants to use crappy, useless, bad software?


    > - the value is shifted to
    > support and training. A natural result of this is to try to make the
    > production of software as cheap as possible, usually by off-shoring of
    > programming to cheap (and nasty) development teams overseas, or to
    > goverment funded (i.e. taxpayer funded) teams - this puts commercial
    > programmers out of a job.


    It looks like your thinking is still stuck in the software-as-a-product-
    to-sell mode.

    Wake up and smell the coffee, mate.


    --
    Smoking Causes Lung Cancer

    "The IT industry landscape is littered with the dead
    dreams of people who once trusted Microsoft."
    Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC), Dec 22, 2007
    #16
  17. Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)

    impossible Guest

    "Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)" <> wrote in message
    news:p...
    > On Sun, 23 Dec 2007 00:52:18 +1300, Cadae wrote:
    >
    >> Most commercial OSS organisation make money from support and training,

    >
    > Correct - and exactly as it should be.
    >
    >
    >> thus software development gets devalued

    >
    > Bullshit! Who wants to use crappy, useless, bad software?
    >
    >
    >> - the value is shifted to
    >> support and training. A natural result of this is to try to make the
    >> production of software as cheap as possible, usually by off-shoring of
    >> programming to cheap (and nasty) development teams overseas, or to
    >> goverment funded (i.e. taxpayer funded) teams - this puts commercial
    >> programmers out of a job.

    >
    > It looks like your thinking is still stuck in the software-as-a-product-
    > to-sell mode.
    >
    > Wake up and smell the coffee, mate.
    >
    >


    Just because you change your nick doesn't mean that your despicable habit of
    selectively editing posts to suit your nonsensical arguments is going to be
    any more appreciated. Censorships stinks, Cup o' Whatever your Name is
    Today. If you can't be bothered to respond thoughtfully to comments as
    written, then maybe you'd prefer a private FaceBook dialog with similarly
    disfuinctional teens.
    impossible, Dec 22, 2007
    #17
  18. Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)

    peter Guest

    Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC) wrote:
    > http://redmondmag.com/features/article.asp?EditorialsID=2395
    > "Open source is a software capitalist's supreme tool," says Matt Asay,
    > vice president of business development with Alfresco Software Inc.


    It's true.

    Capitalism is characterised by a market approach, where the consumer has
    freedom of choice and there are low barriers to new entrants and
    innovation.
    Another approach is the central control model, where there is no consumer
    choice, and little or no opportunity for new entrants and innovation.

    Open source exhibits the market approach, while closed source advocates
    follow the central control approach.

    Check out the story of the cathedral and the bazaar, where the cathedral
    symbolises the central control model of proprietary software, and the
    bazaar symbolises the vigorous, fertile environment of open source.
    http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/

    From a consumer's point of view, there is little difference between the
    central control "we know best" approach of Microsoft and the same approach
    of a communist regime.


    Peter
    peter, Dec 22, 2007
    #18
  19. Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)

    impossible Guest

    "peter" <> wrote in message
    news:1198346968.552363@ftpsrv1...
    > Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC) wrote:
    >> http://redmondmag.com/features/article.asp?EditorialsID=2395
    >> "Open source is a software capitalist's supreme tool," says Matt Asay,
    >> vice president of business development with Alfresco Software Inc.

    >
    > It's true.
    >
    > Capitalism is characterised by a market approach, where the consumer has
    > freedom of choice and there are low barriers to new entrants and
    > innovation.


    No, it isn't. Markets come in all sizes and shapes. Historically,in almost
    any market other than a grocery store, barriers to entry have always been
    very high. Technological innovation is costly, so only those with
    exceptional resources can afford to make that investment. The IT industry
    has tended to buck that trend -- Microsoft and Google came from nowhere to
    challenge the status quo and become giants in their own right. But those
    kind of rags-to-riches stories are still the exception.

    > Another approach is the central control model, where there is no consumer
    > choice, and little or no opportunity for new entrants and innovation.
    >


    Like in the bad old days, you mean, when IBM monopolized the computer
    hardware market?

    > Open source exhibits the market approach, while closed source advocates
    > follow the central control approach.
    >


    Yeah, right. That's why open source developers who haven't been able to
    create desktop products that can compete with Microsoft Office have instead
    tried to get governments to legislate anti-Microsoft document "standards".

    > Check out the story of the cathedral and the bazaar, where the cathedral
    > symbolises the central control model of proprietary software, and the
    > bazaar symbolises the vigorous, fertile environment of open source.
    > http://www.catb.org/~esr/writings/cathedral-bazaar/cathedral-bazaar/
    >


    If only right-wing Libertarian developers would spend a little less time
    writing folk tales and little more time writing good code....

    > From a consumer's point of view, there is little difference between the
    > central control "we know best" approach of Microsoft and the same approach
    > of a communist regime.
    >
    >


    Really?!? Please explain, because where I shop I have an unlimited choice of
    software products -- open source/closed source, freeware/shareware,
    Windows/MacOS. And while I must admit that the closed-source Windows and
    MacOS stuff lgenerally looks a lot more useful to me, that one time I did
    download a free copy of OpenOffice was pretty uneventful -- no MS Central
    Committe members showed up on my door instructing me to delete it, no guns
    were drawn at my workplace to compel me thereafter to open Excel rather
    than.....what's it called?Calc? All very boring. I could've been shopping
    for onions for all anyone seemed to care.
    impossible, Dec 22, 2007
    #19
  20. Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC)

    Fierce Guppy Guest

    peter has brought this to us :
    > Smoking Causes Lung Cancer (SCLC) wrote:
    >> http://redmondmag.com/features/article.asp?EditorialsID=2395
    >> "Open source is a software capitalist's supreme tool," says Matt Asay,
    >> vice president of business development with Alfresco Software Inc.

    >
    > It's true.
    >
    > Capitalism is characterised by a market approach, where the consumer has
    > freedom of choice and there are low barriers to new entrants and
    > innovation.
    > Another approach is the central control model, where there is no consumer
    > choice, and little or no opportunity for new entrants and innovation.
    >
    > Open source exhibits the market approach, while closed source advocates
    > follow the central control approach.


    Put in its proper context the market approach is based on a system of
    the private ownership of capital by individuals or coporations left
    free by government to produce goods and services to sell for personal
    profit. Closed source software is no different to any other product
    sold on the market, and neither is open source code when private
    capital is in the form of services for installing and maintaining open
    source code for personal profit. It's all capitalism.

    --
    email: fierce,guppy@paradise,net,nz
    Fierce Guppy, Dec 22, 2007
    #20
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