Open Document Alliance Formed

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 3, 2006.

  1. http://www.odfalliance.org/news.asp

    IMHO, an excellent development that augers well for the uptake of the ODF!


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    Jono Bacon: "I deal with companies every day that are moving over to Linux, and
    it does all the things that they want."
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 3, 2006
    #1
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  2. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    whoisthis Guest

    In article <>,
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea <> wrote:

    > http://www.odfalliance.org/news.asp
    >
    > IMHO, an excellent development that augers well for the uptake of the ODF!


    Ahh, now that is finally commonsense.
    Who cares about OSS, its the data formats that are important, along with
    network protocols.

    If Microsoft/Apple/Adobe/DataDesk or who ever can produce an application
    that is worth buying because it makes people more productive then more
    power to them, however the data created with these applications is MINE
    and I should be able to use that data anyway I want.

    For example if I were to write a best seller book, Microsoft or who ever
    is not entitled to any part of the commission I may earn. However, if I
    find that there are some limitations/issues with the software then I
    want to be able to edit/open the document in another application of MY
    choice.

    It os the same with protocols, Microsoft prevents competition for many
    of their products by keeping the protocols proprietry. Now if Microsoft
    can produce the the best exchange server then more power to them, but if
    OSS can create something that is better then they should be able to.

    This has worked for POP3/SMTP servers,NNTP servers,FTP servers, it was
    worked for ASCCI text editors and so on. In all these cases there are
    multiple OSS and commercial offerings.

    So, Do I agree that OSS is the best option, NO WAY, not for everything,
    too much of it sucks badly, but do I believe in open data formats, YES.
     
    whoisthis, Mar 3, 2006
    #2
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  3. On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 12:43:56 +1300, whoisthis wrote:

    > Ahh, now that is finally commonsense. Who cares about OSS, its the data
    > formats that are important, along with network protocols.


    Both freedom of code, and openness of formats, protocols & APIs are
    important.


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    Jono Bacon: "I deal with companies every day that are moving over to Linux, and
    it does all the things that they want."
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 4, 2006
    #3
  4. On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 12:43:56 +1300, whoisthis wrote:

    > For example if I were to write a best seller book, Microsoft or who ever
    > is not entitled to any part of the commission I may earn


    Unless you agree to it by clicking <agree> to your shrink-wrapped EULA.


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    Jono Bacon: "I deal with companies every day that are moving over to Linux, and
    it does all the things that they want."
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 4, 2006
    #4
  5. On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 12:43:56 +1300, whoisthis wrote:

    > So, Do I agree that OSS is the best option, NO WAY, not for everything,
    > too much of it sucks badly, but do I believe in open data formats, YES.


    What particular projects do you think "suck badly"? And have they yet been
    declared feature complete and given a 1.0.x version number or are they
    still sitting rather well below 0.9.9?

    Which projects?

    <curious>


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    Jono Bacon: "I deal with companies every day that are moving over to Linux, and
    it does all the things that they want."
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 4, 2006
    #5
  6. On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 12:43:56 +1300, whoisthis wrote:

    > but do I believe in open data formats, YES.


    Indeed. Open formats and protocols are essential if contributors to Free
    and Open Source software projects are to be able to successfully write
    programmes that can interact with encumbered and closed source software.

    If the proprietary software is as good as they claim it is, then surely it
    will prevail over Free and open software.

    Perhaps these businesses are scared that their dirty code will be hung out
    for what it is. ;o)


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    Every major worm other than the original Morris Worm from 1988 has leveraged
    a hole in Microsoft products.
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 4, 2006
    #6
  7. On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 13:40:28 +1300, Have A Nice Cup of Tea <>
    wrote:

    >On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 12:43:56 +1300, whoisthis wrote:
    >
    >> For example if I were to write a best seller book, Microsoft or who ever
    >> is not entitled to any part of the commission I may earn

    >
    >Unless you agree to it by clicking <agree> to your shrink-wrapped EULA.
    >
    >
    >Have A Nice Cup of Tea


    Fortunately for us in NZ, any such agreement that you did not see
    *before* you paid for the product is completely void - our contract
    law says that the contract is made when you pay, and any attempt to
    unilaterally change that contract later can just be ignored. As can
    any attempt to sue you in their selected US court, unless you agreed
    to that jurisdiction before the contract was made.

    Note that IBM gets it right - on their web site if you buy downloaded
    software, it always asks for your country and presents the NZ version
    of their sales contract before you pay. The NZ version has the clause
    to opt out of the Consumer Guarantees Act for business purchases.

    Disclaimer: I am not a lawyer.
     
    Stephen Worthington, Mar 4, 2006
    #7
  8. On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 03:12:23 +0000, Stephen Worthington wrote:

    > Fortunately for us in NZ, any such agreement that you did not see *before*
    > you paid for the product is completely void - our contract law says that
    > the contract is made when you pay, and any attempt to unilaterally change
    > that contract later can just be ignored.


    That is indeed fortunate.


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    Jono Bacon: "I deal with companies every day that are moving over to Linux, and
    it does all the things that they want."
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 4, 2006
    #8
  9. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    whoisthis Guest

    In article <>,
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea <> wrote:

    > On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 12:43:56 +1300, whoisthis wrote:
    >
    > > but do I believe in open data formats, YES.

    >
    > Indeed. Open formats and protocols are essential if contributors to Free
    > and Open Source software projects are to be able to successfully write
    > programmes that can interact with encumbered and closed source software.
    >
    > If the proprietary software is as good as they claim it is, then surely it
    > will prevail over Free and open software.
    >
    > Perhaps these businesses are scared that their dirty code will be hung out
    > for what it is. ;o)


    Nothing to do with dirty code, if it is proprietry you will never see
    any of it.

    A good example of this is of course Photoshop vs GIMP, Photoshop wins
    hands down, the GIMP is a pig to use.
     
    whoisthis, Mar 4, 2006
    #9
  10. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    whoisthis Guest

    In article <>,
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea <> wrote:

    > On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 12:43:56 +1300, whoisthis wrote:
    >
    > > So, Do I agree that OSS is the best option, NO WAY, not for everything,
    > > too much of it sucks badly, but do I believe in open data formats, YES.

    >
    > What particular projects do you think "suck badly"? And have they yet been
    > declared feature complete and given a 1.0.x version number or are they
    > still sitting rather well below 0.9.9?
    >
    > Which projects?
    >


    Well I gave the GIMP a good play and decided Photoshop was so superior
    it was worth every cent I paid for it.
     
    whoisthis, Mar 4, 2006
    #10
  11. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    whoisthis Guest

    In article <>,
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea <> wrote:

    > On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 12:43:56 +1300, whoisthis wrote:
    >
    > > Ahh, now that is finally commonsense. Who cares about OSS, its the data
    > > formats that are important, along with network protocols.

    >
    > Both freedom of code, and openness of formats, protocols & APIs are
    > important.
    >


    Sorry code is entitled to be as proprietry as any other work. Why should
    someone who invents a new sorting algorithm that saves heaps of time not
    be entitled to see financial rewards for it ?

    Another example is the spreadsheet, this was ground breaking as a
    concept, so the designer should be just as entitiled to financial
    rewards as the author of a best seller.
     
    whoisthis, Mar 4, 2006
    #11
  12. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    Thor Guest

    whoisthis wrote:

    > What particular projects do you think "suck badly"? And have they yet
    >> been declared feature complete and given a 1.0.x version number or are
    >> they still sitting rather well below 0.9.9?
    >>
    >> Which projects?
    >>

    >
    > Well I gave the GIMP a good play and decided Photoshop was so superior
    > it was worth every cent I paid for it.



    As much as I wish I didn't have to I agree with you. The photoshop ...
    gimp difference is the big one in this household. Neither my wife nor I are
    big game players so the fact that windows has more is no biggie. However
    I'm into genealogy and Marie is a good digital artist, Gramps works for me
    but the Gimp does not work for her. The tradeoff of course is that she has
    to spend a lot more time and effort on firewalls, antivirus, antiTrojan and
    antispyware than she does, does not quite make the grade. Gimp is very
    functional and basically does all that photoshop does, but it's interface
    sucks. It seems to be a bit of an ego trip for the programmers (ie we know
    best), they seriously need to get some artists/users into the project.
     
    Thor, Mar 4, 2006
    #12
  13. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    Gordon Guest

    On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 12:43:56 +1300, whoisthis wrote:

    > So, Do I agree that OSS is the best option, NO WAY, not for everything,
    > too much of it sucks badly, but do I believe in open data formats, YES.


    Oh dear. How is you foot?
     
    Gordon, Mar 4, 2006
    #13
  14. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    Gordon Guest

    On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 13:50:42 +1300, Have A Nice Cup of Tea wrote:

    > If the proprietary software is as good as they claim it is, then surely it
    > will prevail over Free and open software.


    History shows that this is not always the case.
     
    Gordon, Mar 4, 2006
    #14
  15. On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 20:56:10 +1300, whoisthis wrote:

    > A good example of this is of course Photoshop vs GIMP, Photoshop wins
    > hands down, the GIMP is a pig to use.


    I'd say that the layout of the Gimp's GUI is not what people in the
    industry are used to having. I'd also say that colour management is not
    what it should be. I'd also say that Pantone being missing is also a big
    problem stopping the Gimp's uptake in the industry.

    Generally, I'd say that the Gimp will be relegated to the back seat as
    soon as Adobe releases a native Linux version of it's suite of
    applications then uptake of Linux will speed up considerably. I think
    that's one of the things holding up adoption of Linux by a broader section
    of the community.


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    Buffer-overflow vulnerabilities are simply programming errors; they occur
    when coders fail to deploy proper memory-management techniques.
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 4, 2006
    #15
  16. On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 20:57:19 +1300, whoisthis wrote:

    > Well I gave the GIMP a good play and decided Photoshop was so superior it
    > was worth every cent I paid for it.


    Yes - Photoshop is the best of breed. It is also the most requested
    programme for porting over to Linux.


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    Jono Bacon: "I deal with companies every day that are moving over to Linux,
    and it does all the things that they want."
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 4, 2006
    #16
  17. On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 21:16:59 +1300, Thor wrote:

    > Gimp is very functional and basically does all that photoshop does, but
    > it's interface sucks. It seems to be a bit of an ego trip for the
    > programmers (ie we know best), they seriously need to get some
    > artists/users into the project.


    Agreed, and agreed.

    The key difference between the Gimp and Photoshop is Pantone support.

    Without Pantone support the Gimp will never succeed in penetrating graphic
    design shops.


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    Buffer-overflow vulnerabilities are simply programming errors; they occur
    when coders fail to deploy proper memory-management techniques.
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 4, 2006
    #17
  18. On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 21:00:57 +1300, whoisthis wrote:

    > Sorry code is entitled to be as proprietry as any other work. Why should
    > someone who invents a new sorting algorithm that saves heaps of time not
    > be entitled to see financial rewards for it ?


    Ideas are free. Code, of course, can be and is copyrighted. There is no
    reason why specific implementations of that sorting algorithm cannot be
    copyrighted and sold. But preventing other people from using the same idea
    in a completely new implementation of it... definitely NOT good.


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    Buffer-overflow vulnerabilities are simply programming errors; they occur
    when coders fail to deploy proper memory-management techniques.
     
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, Mar 4, 2006
    #18
  19. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    Fred Dagg Guest

    On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 23:50:05 +1300, Have A Nice Cup of Tea <>
    exclaimed:

    >On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 21:16:59 +1300, Thor wrote:
    >
    >> Gimp is very functional and basically does all that photoshop does, but
    >> it's interface sucks. It seems to be a bit of an ego trip for the
    >> programmers (ie we know best), they seriously need to get some
    >> artists/users into the project.

    >
    >Agreed, and agreed.
    >
    >The key difference between the Gimp and Photoshop is Pantone support.
    >
    >Without Pantone support the Gimp will never succeed in penetrating graphic
    >design shops.
    >

    Sorry, Tea, but there's a heck of a lot more difference than that!!

    Have you used either for any length of time?
     
    Fred Dagg, Mar 4, 2006
    #19
  20. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    Philip Guest

    Have A Nice Cup of Tea wrote:
    > On Sat, 04 Mar 2006 20:57:19 +1300, whoisthis wrote:
    >
    >> Well I gave the GIMP a good play and decided Photoshop was so superior it
    >> was worth every cent I paid for it.

    >
    > Yes - Photoshop is the best of breed. It is also the most requested
    > programme for porting over to Linux.
    >
    >
    > Have A Nice Cup of Tea
    >

    I have Gimp on my Windows machine - but I'd much rather work with Paint
    Shop Pro or Photoshop - they are the business, and one of the reasons to
    keep a Windows machine in this largely Linux establishment.

    Gimp starts badly by insisting that there is no disk in the drive
    (doesn't say which of eleven actual and virtual drives it means).
    It does that twice and then loads, but the interface sucks, there is no
    Pantone support (as mentioned above)and its handling of directories and
    filenames under Windows is so bad that unless you write down in detail
    where it is putting your work, you may never find it again. It seems to
    work better under Ubuntui Linux in that the files are where I expect
    them to be - but I don't understand how that happens.

    The documentation for Gimp suffers from the GNU disease of
    self-congratulation mingled with the assumption that users are already
    at the expert level before they look in the dox.

    There's a similar problem in the otherwise excellent Audacity audio
    editor, which I use in my radio station. File and directory handling is,
    to say the least, obscure and random - sometimes files are written in
    folders that were last looked at in Explorer, but have never been
    accessed in Audacity.

    It should be - perhaps it is - possible to set a default folder for
    writing files. The documentation I have is silent on this. When
    volunteers come in to do their voice tracks, it can take loads of time
    to find out where, on which computer and under what name, Audacity has
    put the work they've produced.

    Microsoft tends to have better documentation writers (and I don't doubt
    they pay them well). That improves the learning curve, as do the huge
    stream of third-party books published for the different programs. That's
    something I'd like to see develop in FOSS and GNU programs. Not so much
    "The Drooling Dummy's guide to Gimp" as "The O'Reilly Guide to Gimp". Or
    Audacity. Or WGet. I haven't so far seen that on Amazon. Maybe the GNU
    Purity Police would complain if someone were to try to sell such a thing.

    Perhaps the worst example of good programming let down by the dox, and
    one I'm currently struggling with, is the fine GNU program WGet, which,
    thanks to advice received on this newsgroup, I have browbeaten into
    downloading my hourly audio news updates and saving them in a folder my
    playout software can actually find.

    That got easier when I discovered that "output document" actually
    allowed me to specify the folder and filename I wanted my file saved under.

    It still doesn't want to let me use wildcards, though.

    Philip
     
    Philip, Mar 5, 2006
    #20
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