One set of Speakers for two pcs?

Discussion in 'Computer Support' started by OrmesbyJohn, Apr 10, 2004.

  1. OrmesbyJohn

    OrmesbyJohn Guest

    I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to link one
    set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    Thanks
     
    OrmesbyJohn, Apr 10, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. OrmesbyJohn

    Palindrome Guest

    OrmesbyJohn wrote:

    > I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to link one
    > set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    > Thanks
    >
    >

    Many options, the cheapest and simplest being:
    Use a plug-plug lead between the "speaker out" on one and the "line
    in" on the other. The "other" then has to be running but can mix the
    sounds from both systems and present them to the speakers.
     
    Palindrome, Apr 10, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. OrmesbyJohn

    OrmesbyJohn Guest

    "Palindrome" <> wrote in message
    news:c58nai$2pg0q0$-berlin.de...
    > OrmesbyJohn wrote:
    >
    > > I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to link

    one
    > > set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    > > Thanks
    > >
    > >

    > Many options, the cheapest and simplest being:
    > Use a plug-plug lead between the "speaker out" on one and the "line
    > in" on the other. The "other" then has to be running but can mix the
    > sounds from both systems and present them to the speakers.

    ------------
    Thanks, but wish to be able to use the speakers with either pc when the
    other is either running or shut down.
     
    OrmesbyJohn, Apr 10, 2004
    #3
  4. On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 14:34:36 +0100, "OrmesbyJohn"
    <> wrote:

    >
    >"Palindrome" <> wrote in message
    >news:c58nai$2pg0q0$-berlin.de...
    >> OrmesbyJohn wrote:
    >>
    >> > I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to link

    >one
    >> > set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    >> > Thanks
    >> >
    >> >

    >> Many options, the cheapest and simplest being:
    >> Use a plug-plug lead between the "speaker out" on one and the "line
    >> in" on the other. The "other" then has to be running but can mix the
    >> sounds from both systems and present them to the speakers.

    >------------
    >Thanks, but wish to be able to use the speakers with either pc when the
    >other is either running or shut down.


    Altec Lansing has some with dual inputs that work just fine with two
    devices.
     
    Gary L. Burnore, Apr 10, 2004
    #4
  5. OrmesbyJohn

    Palindrome Guest

    OrmesbyJohn wrote:

    > "Palindrome" <> wrote in message
    > news:c58nai$2pg0q0$-berlin.de...
    >
    >>OrmesbyJohn wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to link

    >
    > one
    >
    >>>set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    >>>Thanks
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>Many options, the cheapest and simplest being:
    >> Use a plug-plug lead between the "speaker out" on one and the "line
    >>in" on the other. The "other" then has to be running but can mix the
    >>sounds from both systems and present them to the speakers.

    >
    > ------------
    > Thanks, but wish to be able to use the speakers with either pc when the
    > other is either running or shut down.
    >
    > As I said, many options, you really need to provide more info if you

    want a focused reply.
    Two more options:

    You can get switch boxes that will do the job. You will probably have to
    convert the stereo jack plugs to either phono or larger jackplugs. Plan
    on about 15GBP.
    (But if you don't want to have to manually switch, the above won't do)

    You can also get small mixing "desks" for about 20GBP. But they will
    need a mains adaptor (another 5GBP). This will give you a mix of the two
    signals so that you can hear both at the same time.
    (But if you don't want to use something that needs a mains socket, this
    won't do).
     
    Palindrome, Apr 10, 2004
    #5
  6. OrmesbyJohn

    Gimpy Guest

    If your looking for a 2-way switch, this Co. has all different types
    with the right size plugs. Also extra cables available if needed
    http://electronicsusa.com/
    "Palindrome" <> wrote in message
    news:c58tos$2qp2j1$-berlin.de...
    > OrmesbyJohn wrote:
    >
    > > "Palindrome" <> wrote in message
    > > news:c58nai$2pg0q0$-berlin.de...
    > >
    > >>OrmesbyJohn wrote:
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>>I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to

    link
    > >
    > > one
    > >
    > >>>set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    > >>>Thanks
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>
    > >>Many options, the cheapest and simplest being:
    > >> Use a plug-plug lead between the "speaker out" on one and the

    "line
    > >>in" on the other. The "other" then has to be running but can mix the
    > >>sounds from both systems and present them to the speakers.

    > >
    > > ------------
    > > Thanks, but wish to be able to use the speakers with either pc when

    the
    > > other is either running or shut down.
    > >
    > > As I said, many options, you really need to provide more info if you

    > want a focused reply.
    > Two more options:
    >
    > You can get switch boxes that will do the job. You will probably have

    to
    > convert the stereo jack plugs to either phono or larger jackplugs.

    Plan
    > on about 15GBP.
    > (But if you don't want to have to manually switch, the above won't do)
    >
    > You can also get small mixing "desks" for about 20GBP. But they will
    > need a mains adaptor (another 5GBP). This will give you a mix of the

    two
    > signals so that you can hear both at the same time.
    > (But if you don't want to use something that needs a mains socket,

    this
    > won't do).
     
    Gimpy, Apr 10, 2004
    #6
  7. OrmesbyJohn

    OrmesbyJohn Guest

    "Gimpy" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > If your looking for a 2-way switch, this Co. has all different types
    > with the right size plugs. Also extra cables available if needed
    > http://electronicsusa.com/
    > "Palindrome" <> wrote in message
    > news:c58tos$2qp2j1$-berlin.de...
    > > OrmesbyJohn wrote:
    > >
    > > > "Palindrome" <> wrote in message
    > > > news:c58nai$2pg0q0$-berlin.de...
    > > >
    > > >>OrmesbyJohn wrote:
    > > >>
    > > >>
    > > >>>I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to

    > link
    > > >
    > > > one
    > > >
    > > >>>set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    > > >>>Thanks
    > > >>>
    > > >>>
    > > >>
    > > >>Many options, the cheapest and simplest being:
    > > >> Use a plug-plug lead between the "speaker out" on one and the

    > "line
    > > >>in" on the other. The "other" then has to be running but can mix the
    > > >>sounds from both systems and present them to the speakers.
    > > >
    > > > ------------
    > > > Thanks, but wish to be able to use the speakers with either pc when

    > the
    > > > other is either running or shut down.
    > > >
    > > > As I said, many options, you really need to provide more info if you

    > > want a focused reply.
    > > Two more options:
    > >
    > > You can get switch boxes that will do the job. You will probably have

    > to
    > > convert the stereo jack plugs to either phono or larger jackplugs.

    > Plan
    > > on about 15GBP.
    > > (But if you don't want to have to manually switch, the above won't do)
    > >
    > > You can also get small mixing "desks" for about 20GBP. But they will
    > > need a mains adaptor (another 5GBP). This will give you a mix of the

    > two
    > > signals so that you can hear both at the same time.
    > > (But if you don't want to use something that needs a mains socket,

    > this
    > > won't do).

    ------------------------
    TVM for all the advice.
     
    OrmesbyJohn, Apr 10, 2004
    #7
  8. OrmesbyJohn

    Millimeter Guest

    On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:50:59 +0100, "OrmesbyJohn"
    <> wrote:

    >I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to link one
    >set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    >Thanks
    >


    How about a simple Y adapter allowing 2 in ->1 out?
    They are both output jacks on the soundcard so there will be no load
    to contend with.

    Just a thought,
    Millimeter
     
    Millimeter, Apr 10, 2004
    #8
  9. Millimeter wrote:

    > On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:50:59 +0100, "OrmesbyJohn"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to link one
    >>set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    >>Thanks
    >>

    >
    >
    > How about a simple Y adapter allowing 2 in ->1 out?
    > They are both output jacks on the soundcard so there will be no load
    > to contend with.
    >
    > Just a thought,
    > Millimeter


    A good idea but only if you include current limiting resistors
    (~100-1Kohm) in each of the Y arms (both arms so that the two channels
    keep roughly the same signal levels). The outputs from sound cards are
    not open collector and the output devices will be taken out of their
    safe operating area when one card attempt to pull the output high whilst
    the other attempts to pull it low. You can happily parallel two inputs
    but not two outputs, unless they are current sink, open collector type.
     
    =?UTF-8?B?UGFsaW5kcuKYu21l?=, Apr 10, 2004
    #9
  10. OrmesbyJohn

    Toolman Tim Guest

    "Palindrâ~»me" <> wrote in message
    news:c59sg0$2qtnc2$-berlin.de...
    > Millimeter wrote:
    >
    > > On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:50:59 +0100, "OrmesbyJohn"
    > > <> wrote:
    > >
    > >
    > >>I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to link

    one
    > >>set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    > >>Thanks
    > >>

    > >
    > >
    > > How about a simple Y adapter allowing 2 in ->1 out?
    > > They are both output jacks on the soundcard so there will be no load
    > > to contend with.
    > >
    > > Just a thought,
    > > Millimeter

    >
    > A good idea but only if you include current limiting resistors
    > (~100-1Kohm) in each of the Y arms (both arms so that the two channels
    > keep roughly the same signal levels). The outputs from sound cards are
    > not open collector and the output devices will be taken out of their
    > safe operating area when one card attempt to pull the output high whilst
    > the other attempts to pull it low. You can happily parallel two inputs
    > but not two outputs, unless they are current sink, open collector type.
    >


    Do the resistors go in series in the signal wire? Or are they a cross from
    signal to ground? Just wondering...
     
    Toolman Tim, Apr 10, 2004
    #10
  11. Toolman Tim wrote:

    > "Palindrâ~»me" <> wrote in message
    > news:c59sg0$2qtnc2$-berlin.de...
    >
    >>Millimeter wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:50:59 +0100, "OrmesbyJohn"
    >>><> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to link

    >
    > one
    >
    >>>>set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    >>>>Thanks
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>How about a simple Y adapter allowing 2 in ->1 out?
    >>>They are both output jacks on the soundcard so there will be no load
    >>>to contend with.
    >>>
    >>>Just a thought,
    >>>Millimeter

    >>
    >>A good idea but only if you include current limiting resistors
    >>(~100-1Kohm) in each of the Y arms (both arms so that the two channels
    >>keep roughly the same signal levels). The outputs from sound cards are
    >>not open collector and the output devices will be taken out of their
    >>safe operating area when one card attempt to pull the output high whilst
    >>the other attempts to pull it low. You can happily parallel two inputs
    >>but not two outputs, unless they are current sink, open collector type.
    >>

    >
    >
    > Do the resistors go in series in the signal wire? Or are they a cross from
    > signal to ground? Just wondering...
    >
    >

    Series to limit the current. From signal to ground is for impedance
    matching - typically if the preceding and/or following circuits use
    passive filtering (which have component values calculated by including
    the source and sink impedances). If they aren't correct then the filters
    won't work the way intended.
     
    =?UTF-8?B?UGFsaW5kcuKYu21l?=, Apr 10, 2004
    #11
  12. OrmesbyJohn

    Toolman Tim Guest

    "Palindr?me" <> wrote in message
    news:c59tci$2pqk2j$-berlin.de...
    > Toolman Tim wrote:
    >
    > > "Palindrâ~»me" <> wrote in message
    > > news:c59sg0$2qtnc2$-berlin.de...
    > >
    > >>Millimeter wrote:
    > >>
    > >>
    > >>>On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:50:59 +0100, "OrmesbyJohn"
    > >>><> wrote:
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>>I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to

    link
    > >
    > > one
    > >
    > >>>>set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    > >>>>Thanks
    > >>>>
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>>How about a simple Y adapter allowing 2 in ->1 out?
    > >>>They are both output jacks on the soundcard so there will be no load
    > >>>to contend with.
    > >>>
    > >>>Just a thought,
    > >>>Millimeter
    > >>
    > >>A good idea but only if you include current limiting resistors
    > >>(~100-1Kohm) in each of the Y arms (both arms so that the two channels
    > >>keep roughly the same signal levels). The outputs from sound cards are
    > >>not open collector and the output devices will be taken out of their
    > >>safe operating area when one card attempt to pull the output high whilst
    > >>the other attempts to pull it low. You can happily parallel two inputs
    > >>but not two outputs, unless they are current sink, open collector type.
    > >>

    > >
    > >
    > > Do the resistors go in series in the signal wire? Or are they a cross

    from
    > > signal to ground? Just wondering...
    > >
    > >

    > Series to limit the current. From signal to ground is for impedance
    > matching - typically if the preceding and/or following circuits use
    > passive filtering (which have component values calculated by including
    > the source and sink impedances). If they aren't correct then the filters
    > won't work the way intended.


    Thanks for the reminder...I dropped out of electronics repair class way back
    when the VCR was a new (totally unaffordable) concept, and the Z80 was a
    "state of the art" microprocessor <g>

    T.T.
     
    Toolman Tim, Apr 11, 2004
    #12
  13. Greetings...

    On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:50:59 +0100, "OrmesbyJohn" <> wrote:

    >I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to link one
    >set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    >Thanks
    >



    Oh MY GOD!!!!

    Apparently they no longer teach simple problem solving anymore in liberal schools....

    How the hell did you ever find Usenet!???

    Just in case you are NOT a troll - I'll answer your stupid question before I continue to
    flame your incredible stupidity! No - I'll just save time and answer your stupid question
    WHILE continuing to flame your incredible stupidity...


    The back of your sound cards have plug in jacks - probably mini stereo plug jacks don't
    they? Your speakers also have little mini stereo plugs that actually plug into these
    jacks don't they? A normal human being with even minimal brain activity would quickly
    realize that a couple of $.50 Y connectors from radio shack would soon solve his
    problem...
    Of course, if you are the standard moron that owns a computer these days, I would advise
    you to do all this fiddling around while the computer was powered on and playing sounds
    very loudly! Hoping beyond hope that you would be standing in a puddle of salt water
    while doing so, with one hand on the hot water pipe.... (just covering all the bases
    here)
     
    Kanda' Jalen Eirsie, Apr 11, 2004
    #13
  14. OrmesbyJohn

    Toolman Tim Guest

    "Kanda' Jalen Eirsie" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Greetings...
    >
    > On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:50:59 +0100, "OrmesbyJohn"

    <> wrote:
    >
    > >I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to link

    one
    > >set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    > >Thanks
    > >

    >
    >
    > Oh MY GOD!!!!
    >
    > Apparently they no longer teach simple problem solving anymore in

    liberal schools....
    >
    > How the hell did you ever find Usenet!???
    >
    > Just in case you are NOT a troll - I'll answer your stupid question

    before I continue to
    > flame your incredible stupidity! No - I'll just save time and answer your

    stupid question
    > WHILE continuing to flame your incredible stupidity...
    >
    >
    > The back of your sound cards have plug in jacks - probably mini stereo

    plug jacks don't
    > they? Your speakers also have little mini stereo plugs that actually

    plug into these
    > jacks don't they? A normal human being with even minimal brain activity

    would quickly
    > realize that a couple of $.50 Y connectors from radio shack would soon

    solve his
    > problem...
    > Of course, if you are the standard moron that owns a computer these

    days, I would advise
    > you to do all this fiddling around while the computer was powered on and

    playing sounds
    > very loudly! Hoping beyond hope that you would be standing in a puddle of

    salt water
    > while doing so, with one hand on the hot water pipe.... (just covering

    all the bases
    > here)
    >
    >


    And just how is your simple "Y" adapter going to prevent sounds (electrical
    signals) from being pumped into the INPUT of the other sound card?

    play nice or bugger off...
     
    Toolman Tim, Apr 11, 2004
    #14
  15. Kanda' Jalen Eirsie wrote:

    > Greetings...
    >
    > On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:50:59 +0100, "OrmesbyJohn" <> wrote:
    >
    >
    >>I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to link one
    >>set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    >>Thanks
    >>

    >
    >
    >
    > Oh MY GOD!!!!
    >
    > Apparently they no longer teach simple problem solving anymore in liberal schools....
    >
    > How the hell did you ever find Usenet!???
    >
    > Just in case you are NOT a troll - I'll answer your stupid question before I continue to
    > flame your incredible stupidity! No - I'll just save time and answer your stupid question
    > WHILE continuing to flame your incredible stupidity...
    >
    >
    > The back of your sound cards have plug in jacks - probably mini stereo plug jacks don't
    > they? Your speakers also have little mini stereo plugs that actually plug into these
    > jacks don't they? A normal human being with even minimal brain activity would quickly
    > realize that a couple of $.50 Y connectors from radio shack would soon solve his
    > problem...
    > Of course, if you are the standard moron that owns a computer these days, I would advise
    > you to do all this fiddling around while the computer was powered on and playing sounds
    > very loudly! Hoping beyond hope that you would be standing in a puddle of salt water
    > while doing so, with one hand on the hot water pipe.... (just covering all the bases
    > here)
    >
    >

    Oh what an absolutely great idea. Now it is such a good idea that I hope
    that you try it yourself on your own sound cards. Even better, go out
    and buy two very expensive new sound cards and try it with them.

    After you have done that, perhaps you would also like to buy two ac
    generators, nice expensive ones if you please, and use your nice Y cable
    idea on that. Get them both running nicely and then plug a Y cable in.
    Please take out lots of life assurance too, as your next of kin deserves
    a break.

    In short, you can use a Y cable to connect the INPUTS of two sound
    cards. You can even use a Y cable to connect the INPUTS of two speakers
    to one sound card. But if you use a Y cable to connect the outputs of
    two sound cards to one set of speakers, both of the sound card will try
    very hard to fry the other - until one or both succeeds.

    It works OK with DC outputs of the same voltage. But the problem of
    connecting AC outputs (like generators and sound cards) in parallel is
    that, sooner or later, one is trying to drive the output positive whilst
    the other is trying to drive it negative. Do try this with two nice big
    truck batteries - firstly connect like terminals together, then
    reverse the leads.
     
    =?UTF-8?B?UGFsaW5kcuKYu21l?=, Apr 11, 2004
    #15
  16. OrmesbyJohn

    Millimeter Guest

    On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 15:07:01 -0700, "Toolman Tim"
    <> wrote:

    >
    >"Kanda' Jalen Eirsie" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> Greetings...
    >>
    >> On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:50:59 +0100, "OrmesbyJohn"

    ><> wrote:
    >>
    >> >I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to link

    >one
    >> >set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    >> >Thanks
    >> >

    >>
    >>
    >> Oh MY GOD!!!!
    >>
    >> Apparently they no longer teach simple problem solving anymore in

    >liberal schools....
    >>
    >> How the hell did you ever find Usenet!???
    >>
    >> Just in case you are NOT a troll - I'll answer your stupid question

    >before I continue to
    >> flame your incredible stupidity! No - I'll just save time and answer your

    >stupid question
    >> WHILE continuing to flame your incredible stupidity...
    >>
    >>
    >> The back of your sound cards have plug in jacks - probably mini stereo

    >plug jacks don't
    >> they? Your speakers also have little mini stereo plugs that actually

    >plug into these
    >> jacks don't they? A normal human being with even minimal brain activity

    >would quickly
    >> realize that a couple of $.50 Y connectors from radio shack would soon

    >solve his
    >> problem...
    >> Of course, if you are the standard moron that owns a computer these

    >days, I would advise
    >> you to do all this fiddling around while the computer was powered on and

    >playing sounds
    >> very loudly! Hoping beyond hope that you would be standing in a puddle of

    >salt water
    >> while doing so, with one hand on the hot water pipe.... (just covering

    >all the bases
    >> here)
    >>
    >>

    >
    >And just how is your simple "Y" adapter going to prevent sounds (electrical
    >signals) from being pumped into the INPUT of the other sound card?


    Not that I am siding with this poster, but my first reply did mention
    using a simple Y connector. My point was that the speakers connect to
    the "output" and not the input.



    >
    >play nice or bugger off...
    >
    >
     
    Millimeter, Apr 12, 2004
    #16
  17. OrmesbyJohn

    Millimeter Guest

    On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 23:28:06 +0100, Palindr?me <>
    wrote:

    >Kanda' Jalen Eirsie wrote:
    >
    >> Greetings...
    >>
    >> On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:50:59 +0100, "OrmesbyJohn" <> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to link one
    >>>set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    >>>Thanks
    >>>

    >>
    >>
    >>
    >> Oh MY GOD!!!!
    >>
    >> Apparently they no longer teach simple problem solving anymore in liberal schools....
    >>
    >> How the hell did you ever find Usenet!???
    >>
    >> Just in case you are NOT a troll - I'll answer your stupid question before I continue to
    >> flame your incredible stupidity! No - I'll just save time and answer your stupid question
    >> WHILE continuing to flame your incredible stupidity...
    >>
    >>
    >> The back of your sound cards have plug in jacks - probably mini stereo plug jacks don't
    >> they? Your speakers also have little mini stereo plugs that actually plug into these
    >> jacks don't they? A normal human being with even minimal brain activity would quickly
    >> realize that a couple of $.50 Y connectors from radio shack would soon solve his
    >> problem...
    >> Of course, if you are the standard moron that owns a computer these days, I would advise
    >> you to do all this fiddling around while the computer was powered on and playing sounds
    >> very loudly! Hoping beyond hope that you would be standing in a puddle of salt water
    >> while doing so, with one hand on the hot water pipe.... (just covering all the bases
    >> here)
    >>
    >>

    >Oh what an absolutely great idea. Now it is such a good idea that I hope
    >that you try it yourself on your own sound cards. Even better, go out
    >and buy two very expensive new sound cards and try it with them.
    >
    >After you have done that, perhaps you would also like to buy two ac
    >generators, nice expensive ones if you please, and use your nice Y cable
    >idea on that. Get them both running nicely and then plug a Y cable in.
    >Please take out lots of life assurance too, as your next of kin deserves
    >a break.
    >
    >In short, you can use a Y cable to connect the INPUTS of two sound
    >cards. You can even use a Y cable to connect the INPUTS of two speakers
    >to one sound card. But if you use a Y cable to connect the outputs of
    >two sound cards to one set of speakers, both of the sound card will try
    >very hard to fry the other - until one or both succeeds.


    Again I am not siding with the person you replied to here either, but
    my original post mentioned using a simple Y connector.

    I find a flaw in your allowing to Merge 2 sources into a single input
    of the soundcard. There is a potential of overdriving the input
    amplifier should both sources fire at the same time.

    However, the speakers as output devices can tolerate the output of
    multiple devices. You state that the 2 sound cards will try to fry
    each other but the outputs should be gated to reject the signal coming
    in from the other source, and the path of least resistance would be
    the speakers.

    >
    >It works OK with DC outputs of the same voltage. But the problem of
    >connecting AC outputs (like generators and sound cards) in parallel is
    >that, sooner or later, one is trying to drive the output positive whilst
    >the other is trying to drive it negative. Do try this with two nice big
    > truck batteries - firstly connect like terminals together, then
    >reverse the leads.
    >


    The opamps in the sound card, (or any analog device that I am aware of
    anyway) work on DC current whereas the generators you mention would
    work on AC current, and at a much larger push.

    As far as connecting speakers in series or parallel, series is the
    prefered choice, but this concerns connecting 2 speakers to a single
    source and not dual source to a single speaker.

    If we connect 2 - 8ohm speakers in series, then we create a resistance
    of nearly 16 ohms, which is harmless but will substantially reduce the
    output volume. If we connect them in paralell however, then we create
    a resistance of nearly 4 ohms, which would not suppress the output
    sufficiently and could actually suck the guts out of the opamp.

    This explains the reason for adding a resistor from 1 lead of a
    speaker to ground to split the load on the speaker which is really a
    resistor anyway, whereas a capacitor is typically added in parallel to
    the 2 leads, but more for sound shaping rather than load management.

    Millimeter
     
    Millimeter, Apr 12, 2004
    #17
  18. OrmesbyJohn

    DennisC Guest

    On 4/11/2004 11:33:47 PM, Millimeter wrote:
    >On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 23:28:06 +0100, Palindr?me <>
    >wrote:
    >
    >>Kanda' Jalen Eirsie wrote:
    >>
    >>> Greetings...
    >>>
    >>> On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:50:59 +0100, "OrmesbyJohn" <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to link one
    >>>>set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    >>>>Thanks
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Oh MY GOD!!!!
    >>>
    >>> Apparently they no longer teach simple problem solving anymore in liberal schools....
    >>>
    >>> How the hell did you ever find Usenet!???
    >>>
    >>> Just in case you are NOT a troll - I'll answer your stupid question before I continue to
    >>> flame your incredible stupidity! No - I'll just save time and answer your stupid question
    >>> WHILE continuing to flame your incredible stupidity...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> The back of your sound cards have plug in jacks - probably mini stereo plug jacks don't
    >>> they? Your speakers also have little mini stereo plugs that actually plug into these
    >>> jacks don't they? A normal human being with even minimal brain activity would quickly
    >>> realize that a couple of $.50 Y connectors from radio shack would soon solve his
    >>> problem...
    >>> Of course, if you are the standard moron that owns a computer these days, I would advise
    >>> you to do all this fiddling around while the computer was powered on and playing sounds
    >>> very loudly! Hoping beyond hope that you would be standing in a puddle of salt water
    >>> while doing so, with one hand on the hot water pipe.... (just covering all the bases
    >>> here)
    >>>
    >>>

    >>Oh what an absolutely great idea. Now it is such a good idea that I hope
    >>that you try it yourself on your own sound cards. Even better, go out
    >>and buy two very expensive new sound cards and try it with them.
    >>
    >>After you have done that, perhaps you would also like to buy two ac
    >>generators, nice expensive ones if you please, and use your nice Y cable
    >>idea on that. Get them both running nicely and then plug a Y cable in.
    >>Please take out lots of life assurance too, as your next of kin deserves
    >>a break.
    >>
    >>In short, you can use a Y cable to connect the INPUTS of two sound
    >>cards. You can even use a Y cable to connect the INPUTS of two speakers
    >>to one sound card. But if you use a Y cable to connect the outputs of
    >>two sound cards to one set of speakers, both of the sound card will try
    >>very hard to fry the other - until one or both succeeds.

    >
    >Again I am not siding with the person you replied to here either, but
    >my original post mentioned using a simple Y connector.
    >
    >I find a flaw in your allowing to Merge 2 sources into a single input
    >of the soundcard. There is a potential of overdriving the input
    >amplifier should both sources fire at the same time.
    >
    >However, the speakers as output devices can tolerate the output of
    >multiple devices. You state that the 2 sound cards will try to fry
    >each other but the outputs should be gated to reject the signal coming
    >in from the other source, and the path of least resistance would be
    >the speakers.
    >
    >>
    >>It works OK with DC outputs of the same voltage. But the problem of
    >>connecting AC outputs (like generators and sound cards) in parallel is
    >>that, sooner or later, one is trying to drive the output positive whilst
    >>the other is trying to drive it negative. Do try this with two nice big
    >> truck batteries - firstly connect like terminals together, then
    >>reverse the leads.
    >>

    >
    >The opamps in the sound card, (or any analog device that I am aware of
    >anyway) work on DC current whereas the generators you mention would
    >work on AC current, and at a much larger push.
    >
    >As far as connecting speakers in series or parallel, series is the
    >prefered choice, but this concerns connecting 2 speakers to a single
    >source and not dual source to a single speaker.
    >
    >If we connect 2 - 8ohm speakers in series, then we create a resistance
    >of nearly 16 ohms, which is harmless but will substantially reduce the
    >output volume. If we connect them in paralell however, then we create
    >a resistance of nearly 4 ohms, which would not suppress the output
    >sufficiently and could actually suck the guts out of the opamp.
    >
    >This explains the reason for adding a resistor from 1 lead of a
    >speaker to ground to split the load on the speaker which is really a
    >resistor anyway, whereas a capacitor is typically added in parallel to
    >the 2 leads, but more for sound shaping rather than load management.
    >
    >Millimeter
    >


    Wow...Well Said......Outstanding reply........I taught electronics
    for 10 years and could not have said it better......You are an "ace"!!!!

    --
    Best Regards,
    DennisC
     
    DennisC, Apr 12, 2004
    #18
  19. Millimeter wrote:
    > On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 23:28:06 +0100, Palindr?me <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >>Kanda' Jalen Eirsie wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Greetings...
    >>>
    >>>On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:50:59 +0100, "OrmesbyJohn" <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to link one
    >>>>set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    >>>>Thanks
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Oh MY GOD!!!!
    >>>
    >>> Apparently they no longer teach simple problem solving anymore in liberal schools....
    >>>
    >>> How the hell did you ever find Usenet!???
    >>>
    >>> Just in case you are NOT a troll - I'll answer your stupid question before I continue to
    >>>flame your incredible stupidity! No - I'll just save time and answer your stupid question
    >>>WHILE continuing to flame your incredible stupidity...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> The back of your sound cards have plug in jacks - probably mini stereo plug jacks don't
    >>>they? Your speakers also have little mini stereo plugs that actually plug into these
    >>>jacks don't they? A normal human being with even minimal brain activity would quickly
    >>>realize that a couple of $.50 Y connectors from radio shack would soon solve his
    >>>problem...
    >>> Of course, if you are the standard moron that owns a computer these days, I would advise
    >>>you to do all this fiddling around while the computer was powered on and playing sounds
    >>>very loudly! Hoping beyond hope that you would be standing in a puddle of salt water
    >>>while doing so, with one hand on the hot water pipe.... (just covering all the bases
    >>>here)
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>Oh what an absolutely great idea. Now it is such a good idea that I hope
    >>that you try it yourself on your own sound cards. Even better, go out
    >>and buy two very expensive new sound cards and try it with them.
    >>
    >>After you have done that, perhaps you would also like to buy two ac
    >>generators, nice expensive ones if you please, and use your nice Y cable
    >>idea on that. Get them both running nicely and then plug a Y cable in.
    >>Please take out lots of life assurance too, as your next of kin deserves
    >>a break.
    >>
    >>In short, you can use a Y cable to connect the INPUTS of two sound
    >>cards. You can even use a Y cable to connect the INPUTS of two speakers
    >>to one sound card. But if you use a Y cable to connect the outputs of
    >>two sound cards to one set of speakers, both of the sound card will try
    >>very hard to fry the other - until one or both succeeds.

    >
    >
    > Again I am not siding with the person you replied to here either, but
    > my original post mentioned using a simple Y connector.
    >
    > I find a flaw in your allowing to Merge 2 sources into a single input
    > of the soundcard. There is a potential of overdriving the input
    > amplifier should both sources fire at the same time.


    No flaw. The input to a sound card won't be overdriven because it is
    high impedance and the signals are being applied in parallel, not
    series. The only thing that may be overdriven is the OUTPUTS of the two
    systems providing the signals. They must be high impedance too.

    >
    > However, the speakers as output devices can tolerate the output of
    > multiple devices. You state that the 2 sound cards will try to fry
    > each other but the outputs should be gated to reject the signal coming
    > in from the other source, and the path of least resistance would be
    > the speakers.

    Not true. "Speakers" aren't just speakers. They are combined amplifiers
    with speakers. The amplifiers have high impedance INPUTS - much higher
    than the low impedance outputs of the sound cards. If you connext a
    sound card direct to unpowered speakers, the sound output would be
    minimal. (Inevitably there are exceptions, a very small number of sound
    cards do include power amplifiers with enough output to drive unpowered
    speakers).
    >
    >
    >>It works OK with DC outputs of the same voltage. But the problem of
    >>connecting AC outputs (like generators and sound cards) in parallel is
    >>that, sooner or later, one is trying to drive the output positive whilst
    >>the other is trying to drive it negative. Do try this with two nice big
    >> truck batteries - firstly connect like terminals together, then
    >>reverse the leads.
    >>

    >
    >
    > The opamps in the sound card, (or any analog device that I am aware of
    > anyway) work on DC current whereas the generators you mention would
    > work on AC current, and at a much larger push.


    Nope, amplifiers in sound cards work on ac signals (in a range of
    frequencies from 20Hz to 20kHz, typically). They are there to amplify
    audio signals. Of course they take power from the dc power rails. The
    amplifiers used may be opamps, but they are preceded by filters which
    will stop them having a dc SIGNAL input. You can use opamps in control
    circuitry where they do have DC inputs, say as voltage regulators, but
    an audio amplifier specifically excludes DC inputs. Otherwise the output
    would be biased towards one supply rail or the other and thus an imposed
    ac signal (the audio signal we are interested in) would be clipped
    prematurely as it rose in that direction.
    >
    > As far as connecting speakers in series or parallel, series is the
    > prefered choice, but this concerns connecting 2 speakers to a single
    > source and not dual source to a single speaker.


    This is true for unpowered speakers. Sound cards are seldom connected
    directly to unpowered speakers, but to the INPUTS of power amplifiers -
    oftern built into the speaker cases and powered by an external mains lead.
    >
    > If we connect 2 - 8ohm speakers in series, then we create a resistance
    > of nearly 16 ohms, which is harmless but will substantially reduce the
    > output volume. If we connect them in paralell however, then we create
    > a resistance of nearly 4 ohms, which would not suppress the output
    > sufficiently and could actually suck the guts out of the opamp.


    True but irrelevant as we are not considering the low impedance speakers
    but the high impedance inputs to the amplifiers contained within powered
    speakers.

    >
    > This explains the reason for adding a resistor from 1 lead of a
    > speaker to ground to split the load on the speaker which is really a
    > resistor anyway, whereas a capacitor is typically added in parallel to
    > the 2 leads, but more for sound shaping rather than load management.


    Yep. Iy you parallel two unpowered speakers, you halve the impedance
    presented to the amplifier. So if they are 8 ohm speakers, when
    paralleled the combination presents an impedance of 4 ohms. So you can
    add a 4 ohm resistor in series to bring the load back up to 8 ohms
    again. But the OP wasn't asking about paralleling speakers, he was
    asking about paralleling sound card outputs.

    Putting a capacitor directly across a speaker, i.e. right across the
    output of an amplifier, is not a good idea. At high enough signal
    frequencies the capacitor will act as a short circuit and overload the
    amplifier. The usual way a capacitor is used across a speaker is in
    series with a tweeter, as part of the cross over network distributing
    the correct range of frequencies to the relevant output devices.

    The output impedance of an amplifier is typically very low. If you
    connect two outputs together in parallel it IS like paralleling the
    output of two mains generators - which also have very low output
    impedances. Worse in some respects in that, at least the mains
    generators are producing the same nominal voltage and frequency. It is
    possible to parallel single frequency, single voltage generators -
    otherwise the National Grid wouldn't work. However, the outputs from two
    amplifiers are at a whole range of frequencies and signal levels and
    directly paralleling them will be catastrophic. Each would try to pull
    the output to its level and massive currents would flow in the process.

    You must never use a Y cable to directly connect the outputs of two
    amplifiers together to a single load, unless they have been designed to
    do so or unless you have added resistors in series with the outputs to
    limit the resulting currents.
     
    =?UTF-8?B?UGFsaW5kcuKYu21l?=, Apr 12, 2004
    #19
  20. OrmesbyJohn

    Millimeter Guest

    On Mon, 12 Apr 2004 12:02:11 +0100, Palindr?me <>
    wrote:

    >Millimeter wrote:
    >> On Sun, 11 Apr 2004 23:28:06 +0100, Palindr?me <>
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Kanda' Jalen Eirsie wrote:
    >>>
    >>>
    >>>>Greetings...
    >>>>
    >>>>On Sat, 10 Apr 2004 12:50:59 +0100, "OrmesbyJohn" <> wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>>I'm sure its a simple piece of kit but what do I need to be able to link one
    >>>>>set of speakers with two adjacent pc soundcards?
    >>>>>Thanks
    >>>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Oh MY GOD!!!!
    >>>>
    >>>> Apparently they no longer teach simple problem solving anymore in liberal schools....
    >>>>
    >>>> How the hell did you ever find Usenet!???
    >>>>
    >>>> Just in case you are NOT a troll - I'll answer your stupid question before I continue to
    >>>>flame your incredible stupidity! No - I'll just save time and answer your stupid question
    >>>>WHILE continuing to flame your incredible stupidity...
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> The back of your sound cards have plug in jacks - probably mini stereo plug jacks don't
    >>>>they? Your speakers also have little mini stereo plugs that actually plug into these
    >>>>jacks don't they? A normal human being with even minimal brain activity would quickly
    >>>>realize that a couple of $.50 Y connectors from radio shack would soon solve his
    >>>>problem...
    >>>> Of course, if you are the standard moron that owns a computer these days, I would advise
    >>>>you to do all this fiddling around while the computer was powered on and playing sounds
    >>>>very loudly! Hoping beyond hope that you would be standing in a puddle of salt water
    >>>>while doing so, with one hand on the hot water pipe.... (just covering all the bases
    >>>>here)
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>
    >>>Oh what an absolutely great idea. Now it is such a good idea that I hope
    >>>that you try it yourself on your own sound cards. Even better, go out
    >>>and buy two very expensive new sound cards and try it with them.
    >>>
    >>>After you have done that, perhaps you would also like to buy two ac
    >>>generators, nice expensive ones if you please, and use your nice Y cable
    >>>idea on that. Get them both running nicely and then plug a Y cable in.
    >>>Please take out lots of life assurance too, as your next of kin deserves
    >>>a break.
    >>>
    >>>In short, you can use a Y cable to connect the INPUTS of two sound
    >>>cards. You can even use a Y cable to connect the INPUTS of two speakers
    >>>to one sound card. But if you use a Y cable to connect the outputs of
    >>>two sound cards to one set of speakers, both of the sound card will try
    >>>very hard to fry the other - until one or both succeeds.

    >>
    >>
    >> Again I am not siding with the person you replied to here either, but
    >> my original post mentioned using a simple Y connector.
    >>
    >> I find a flaw in your allowing to Merge 2 sources into a single input
    >> of the soundcard. There is a potential of overdriving the input
    >> amplifier should both sources fire at the same time.

    >
    >No flaw. The input to a sound card won't be overdriven because it is
    >high impedance and the signals are being applied in parallel, not
    >series. The only thing that may be overdriven is the OUTPUTS of the two
    >systems providing the signals. They must be high impedance too.
    >
    >>
    >> However, the speakers as output devices can tolerate the output of
    >> multiple devices. You state that the 2 sound cards will try to fry
    >> each other but the outputs should be gated to reject the signal coming
    >> in from the other source, and the path of least resistance would be
    >> the speakers.

    >Not true. "Speakers" aren't just speakers. They are combined amplifiers
    >with speakers. The amplifiers have high impedance INPUTS - much higher
    >than the low impedance outputs of the sound cards. If you connext a
    >sound card direct to unpowered speakers, the sound output would be
    >minimal. (Inevitably there are exceptions, a very small number of sound
    >cards do include power amplifiers with enough output to drive unpowered
    >speakers).
    >>
    >>
    >>>It works OK with DC outputs of the same voltage. But the problem of
    >>>connecting AC outputs (like generators and sound cards) in parallel is
    >>>that, sooner or later, one is trying to drive the output positive whilst
    >>>the other is trying to drive it negative. Do try this with two nice big
    >>> truck batteries - firstly connect like terminals together, then
    >>>reverse the leads.
    >>>


    No offence intended but lets sort out some misconceptions here.

    1. We are talking about the output ports from the soundcard, not the
    inputs to the sound card.

    2. If you push AC power through an opamp, it will cook before a full
    cycle has completed. They are gated to accept signals in a single
    direction not both.


    >>
    >>
    >> The opamps in the sound card, (or any analog device that I am aware of
    >> anyway) work on DC current whereas the generators you mention would
    >> work on AC current, and at a much larger push.

    >


    >Nope, amplifiers in sound cards work on ac signals (in a range of
    >frequencies from 20Hz to 20kHz, typically). They are there to amplify


    You seem to be muddling several points into a single explanation here.
    1. The sound amplification on a sound card happens within an IC which
    is powered by DC current, and works on DC signals.

    The input and output pins for both the power circuit and the
    amplification circuit are labled (at least in the IC schematic) as
    being either positive or negative. If you reverse them, you cook the
    chip. If you use AC, then you would cook the chip during the first
    cycle.

    2. Hz/KHz do not refer to current but rather the waveform of the tone.
    The range you mention would envelope the sounds we are capable of
    hearing, from lowest to highest in pitch.

    >audio signals. Of course they take power from the dc power rails. The
    >amplifiers used may be opamps, but they are preceded by filters which
    >will stop them having a dc SIGNAL input. You can use opamps in control
    >circuitry where they do have DC inputs, say as voltage regulators, but
    >an audio amplifier specifically excludes DC inputs. Otherwise the output
    >would be biased towards one supply rail or the other and thus an imposed
    > ac signal (the audio signal we are interested in) would be clipped
    >prematurely as it rose in that direction.


    Nope. The power rails may provide the power to the opamp, but the
    signal path is a seperate circuit all together. Both the power and
    the signal path use DC. The filter you are speaking about filters off
    DC-offsets and not DC altogether.

    What this means is that if the average signal strength is 2 vdc, there
    may be some fluctuations toward 3 vdc and 1vdc. The farther the
    deviation, the higher the rate of sound degradation. By filtering off
    the DC-offset, there can be some measure of control over sound
    degradation.

    http://spsc.inw.tugraz.at/klaus/ofdm01.pdf

    may offer some insight into this.

    Comparing an AC circuit to DC:

    In AC we have 2 wires for single phase applications. 1 is at or near
    ground potential, and the other alternates. Assuming a voltage level
    of 5 volts, the first half of the cycle the hot wire is starting at -5
    volts and rising toward +5 volts. The second half of the cycle it
    falls from +5 to -5.

    In DC we have 2 wires also. 1 is at or near ground potential, the
    other only rises to +5 then falls to 0, there is no inverse cycle
    towards -5. As you know that in computers, bits are determined to be
    set if the voltage is hi, and not set if low. So anything below 0 is
    counted as not set, where anything above the threshold (i.e. +1 to +3
    volts) is counted as hi or set.

    A simple tes would be to hook your volt meter to the 2 pins on an
    unpowered microphone. When you speak into the microphone you will
    notice the meter reacting as I suggested fo DC circuits above, and not
    for AC. A powered microphone simply amplifies the signal to above
    line level but we are only talking millivolts here, not hundreds of
    volts.
    >>
    >> As far as connecting speakers in series or parallel, series is the
    >> prefered choice, but this concerns connecting 2 speakers to a single
    >> source and not dual source to a single speaker.


    What's the difference here? 1 source or 10, the speaker still has a
    resistor that bleeds of excess current to ground to prevent
    overloading.

    >
    >This is true for unpowered speakers. Sound cards are seldom connected
    >directly to unpowered speakers, but to the INPUTS of power amplifiers -
    >oftern built into the speaker cases and powered by an external mains lead.


    Uhhm, I think you are confusing speakers and speaker boxes here.
    A powered speaker is nothing more than a speaker with an amplifier
    added in to increase volume. Powered speakers allow you to use
    line-level outputs from the soundcard rather than normal outputs so
    you can use your own amplification and tone shaping circuitry.

    >>
    >> If we connect 2 - 8ohm speakers in series, then we create a resistance
    >> of nearly 16 ohms, which is harmless but will substantially reduce the
    >> output volume. If we connect them in paralell however, then we create
    >> a resistance of nearly 4 ohms, which would not suppress the output
    >> sufficiently and could actually suck the guts out of the opamp.

    >
    >True but irrelevant as we are not considering the low impedance speakers
    >but the high impedance inputs to the amplifiers contained within powered
    >speakers.
    >


    IMHO, we were trying to discover if the output of one soundcard could
    enter through the output of a second soundcard, by virtue of the fact
    that they both output to a common device, being the single speaker.

    >>
    >> This explains the reason for adding a resistor from 1 lead of a
    >> speaker to ground to split the load on the speaker which is really a
    >> resistor anyway, whereas a capacitor is typically added in parallel to
    >> the 2 leads, but more for sound shaping rather than load management.

    >
    >Yep. Iy you parallel two unpowered speakers, you halve the impedance
    >presented to the amplifier. So if they are 8 ohm speakers, when
    >paralleled the combination presents an impedance of 4 ohms. So you can
    >add a 4 ohm resistor in series to bring the load back up to 8 ohms
    >again. But the OP wasn't asking about paralleling speakers, he was
    >asking about paralleling sound card outputs.


    Actually you would have to add 8ohm resistor but that's twiddling
    bits. :) The speakers would still be at 8 ohms whether you had 1, 2,
    or 10 sources at 2-3 vdc.

    >
    >Putting a capacitor directly across a speaker, i.e. right across the
    >output of an amplifier, is not a good idea. At high enough signal
    >frequencies the capacitor will act as a short circuit and overload the
    >amplifier. The usual way a capacitor is used across a speaker is in
    >series with a tweeter, as part of the cross over network distributing
    >the correct range of frequencies to the relevant output devices.


    Nearly right, but compare this to a guitar amplifier/speaker
    combination where there is no tweeter or woofer. The effect of the
    capacitor would be to bleed the high signals to ground, rather than a
    tweeter. Using a resistor in combination with the capacitor allows
    you to better isolate which frequencies will not be excluded.

    >
    >The output impedance of an amplifier is typically very low. If you
    >connect two outputs together in parallel it IS like paralleling the
    >output of two mains generators - which also have very low output
    >impedances. Worse in some respects in that, at least the mains
    >generators are producing the same nominal voltage and frequency. It is
    >possible to parallel single frequency, single voltage generators -
    >otherwise the National Grid wouldn't work. However, the outputs from two
    >amplifiers are at a whole range of frequencies and signal levels and
    >directly paralleling them will be catastrophic. Each would try to pull
    >the output to its level and massive currents would flow in the process.


    Again, if you are working in AC current then the cycles would have to
    occur at the same timing and resolution to avoid collision, ie if one
    source is in the hi side of the cycle while the second source is in
    the low side.
    Sound cards work with DC signals which couldn't collide because there
    is no low side to the cycle.

    >
    >You must never use a Y cable to directly connect the outputs of two
    >amplifiers together to a single load, unless they have been designed to
    >do so or unless you have added resistors in series with the outputs to
    >limit the resulting currents.
     
    Millimeter, Apr 13, 2004
    #20
    1. Advertising

Want to reply to this thread or ask your own question?

It takes just 2 minutes to sign up (and it's free!). Just click the sign up button to choose a username and then you can ask your own questions on the forum.
Similar Threads
  1. jeff
    Replies:
    4
    Views:
    3,896
    Rick Merrill
    Apr 13, 2004
  2. Andy

    Car PCs, mini PCs run Linux and windowsXP

    Andy, Jan 27, 2006, in forum: Computer Information
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    447
  3. Andy
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    587
  4. P Watt
    Replies:
    16
    Views:
    7,624
    The Other Guy
    Dec 28, 2006
  5. Giuen
    Replies:
    0
    Views:
    1,010
    Giuen
    Sep 12, 2008
Loading...

Share This Page