ODIN OCE12C887A (RTC)

Discussion in 'Computer Information' started by KHL, May 14, 2009.

  1. KHL

    KHL Guest

    Old machine, clean, 13 years old, "NO VIDEO signal", ran flawlessly for 13
    years.
    "ERROR BEEPS at post ", Beep Beep,(pause) Beep Boop !
    Can not find this audio code anywhere,
    Found statements like, "too many different machine,each may have different
    codes."

    AWARD bios, INTEVA machine 1996, swapped video cards, memory swaps.
    Pwr Sup chk, no success.

    Could the ODIN CMOS chip, if the internal BATTERY were dead,
    prevent the machine from booting?
    (FYI and Dallas Semi says, battery life 5~10 years,)
    Any info would be appreciated.

    Thanks Ken.................

    PS. Old machines that still do a job are hard to give up.
     
    KHL, May 14, 2009
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. KHL

    Baron Guest

    KHL wrote:

    > Old machine, clean, 13 years old, "NO VIDEO signal", ran flawlessly
    > for 13 years.
    > "ERROR BEEPS at post ", Beep Beep,(pause) Beep Boop !
    > Can not find this audio code anywhere,
    > Found statements like, "too many different machine,each may have
    > different codes."
    >
    > AWARD bios, INTEVA machine 1996, swapped video cards, memory swaps.
    > Pwr Sup chk, no success.
    >
    > Could the ODIN CMOS chip, if the internal BATTERY were dead,
    > prevent the machine from booting?
    > (FYI and Dallas Semi says, battery life 5~10 years,)
    > Any info would be appreciated.
    >
    > Thanks Ken.................
    >
    > PS. Old machines that still do a job are hard to give up.


    If I recall, Phoenix Bios, battery failure. Can't find my BIOS book to
    confirm it. On some machines you can plug in an external battery.
    Often 4 AA cells or 6volt Lithium battery. Assuming you can still find
    one.

    --
    Best Regards:
    Baron.
     
    Baron, May 14, 2009
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. KHL

    Paul Guest

    Baron wrote:
    > KHL wrote:
    >
    >> Old machine, clean, 13 years old, "NO VIDEO signal", ran flawlessly
    >> for 13 years.
    >> "ERROR BEEPS at post ", Beep Beep,(pause) Beep Boop !
    >> Can not find this audio code anywhere,
    >> Found statements like, "too many different machine,each may have
    >> different codes."
    >>
    >> AWARD bios, INTEVA machine 1996, swapped video cards, memory swaps.
    >> Pwr Sup chk, no success.
    >>
    >> Could the ODIN CMOS chip, if the internal BATTERY were dead,
    >> prevent the machine from booting?
    >> (FYI and Dallas Semi says, battery life 5~10 years,)
    >> Any info would be appreciated.
    >>
    >> Thanks Ken.................
    >>
    >> PS. Old machines that still do a job are hard to give up.

    >
    > If I recall, Phoenix Bios, battery failure. Can't find my BIOS book to
    > confirm it. On some machines you can plug in an external battery.
    > Often 4 AA cells or 6volt Lithium battery. Assuming you can still find
    > one.
    >


    You can use an archived copy of the bioscentral.com site, to look
    for beep codes. Don't use the current site - the browser marked
    it as a known "attack" site, so the current site is not safe.
    The archive should be OK.

    http://web.archive.org/web/20060314035442/www.bioscentral.com/beepcodes/awardbeep.htm

    ( Warning -- http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/bioscentral.com )

    *******

    This isn't a real data sheet, but is as close as I could get.

    http://web.archive.org/web/19980610044002/http://www.dalsemi.com/DocControl/PDFs/12887a.pdf

    http://www.qxsz.com/images/time/12c887.gif

    (Dallas is now a part of Maxim.)
    http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/503

    http://www.epower2go.biz/index1.html

    http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/81/3

    Someone even makes a board, to write stuff into the RTC.
    Presumably, for those cases, where the RTC cannot be erased,
    or the BIOS won't program it. This thing is old enough, it is
    still an ISA board.

    http://www.costronic.com/Ev656.htm

    Good luck,
    Paul
     
    Paul, May 14, 2009
    #3
  4. KHL

    KHL Guest

    Paul, Baron
    Thanks for the info, the last Link I think is the ticket (hoping) ..
    That is a great site, http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/81/3
    My next trick is the surgery.

    I'm still wondering, if the battery is dead, will it boot, as in
    give me something to the monitor..?
    The appnote from the Maxim link does not say this specifically.

    Thanks Again Ken

    Paul <> wrote in message
    news:gui479$shr$...
    > Baron wrote:
    > > KHL wrote:
    > >
    > >> Old machine, clean, 13 years old, "NO VIDEO signal", ran flawlessly
    > >> for 13 years.
    > >> "ERROR BEEPS at post ", Beep Beep,(pause) Beep Boop !
    > >> Can not find this audio code anywhere,
    > >> Found statements like, "too many different machine,each may have
    > >> different codes."
    > >>
    > >> AWARD bios, INTEVA machine 1996, swapped video cards, memory swaps.
    > >> Pwr Sup chk, no success.
    > >>
    > >> Could the ODIN CMOS chip, if the internal BATTERY were dead,
    > >> prevent the machine from booting?
    > >> (FYI and Dallas Semi says, battery life 5~10 years,)
    > >> Any info would be appreciated.
    > >>
    > >> Thanks Ken.................
    > >>
    > >> PS. Old machines that still do a job are hard to give up.

    > >
    > > If I recall, Phoenix Bios, battery failure. Can't find my BIOS book to
    > > confirm it. On some machines you can plug in an external battery.
    > > Often 4 AA cells or 6volt Lithium battery. Assuming you can still find
    > > one.
    > >

    >
    > You can use an archived copy of the bioscentral.com site, to look
    > for beep codes. Don't use the current site - the browser marked
    > it as a known "attack" site, so the current site is not safe.
    > The archive should be OK.
    >
    >

    http://web.archive.org/web/20060314035442/www.bioscentral.com/beepcodes/awar
    dbeep.htm
    >
    > ( Warning -- http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/bioscentral.com )
    >
    > *******
    >
    > This isn't a real data sheet, but is as close as I could get.
    >
    >

    http://web.archive.org/web/19980610044002/http://www.dalsemi.com/DocControl/
    PDFs/12887a.pdf
    >
    > http://www.qxsz.com/images/time/12c887.gif
    >
    > (Dallas is now a part of Maxim.)
    > http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/503
    >
    > http://www.epower2go.biz/index1.html
    >
    > http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/81/3
    >
    > Someone even makes a board, to write stuff into the RTC.
    > Presumably, for those cases, where the RTC cannot be erased,
    > or the BIOS won't program it. This thing is old enough, it is
    > still an ISA board.
    >
    > http://www.costronic.com/Ev656.htm
    >
    > Good luck,
    > Paul
     
    KHL, May 15, 2009
    #4
  5. KHL

    Baron Guest

    KHL wrote:

    > Paul, Baron
    > Thanks for the info, the last Link I think is the ticket (hoping) ..
    > That is a great site, http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/81/3
    > My next trick is the surgery.
    >
    > I'm still wondering, if the battery is dead, will it boot, as in
    > give me something to the monitor..?
    > The appnote from the Maxim link does not say this specifically.
    >
    > Thanks Again Ken


    If you have a multimeter you can measure the battery voltage across the
    pins indicated in that link. FWIW I have recovered several Dallas
    clock chips by using an external battery. You need a steady hand, a
    good soldering iron and an inch or two of fine (3amp fuse wire). A hot
    melt glue gun is very handy for sticking and insulating the new
    battery.

    But before you go to all that trouble, do check that there is not a
    battery header that you can just plug onto.

    > Paul <> wrote in message
    > news:gui479$shr$...
    >> Baron wrote:
    >> > KHL wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> Old machine, clean, 13 years old, "NO VIDEO signal", ran
    >> >> flawlessly for 13 years.
    >> >> "ERROR BEEPS at post ", Beep Beep,(pause) Beep Boop !
    >> >> Can not find this audio code anywhere,
    >> >> Found statements like, "too many different machine,each may have
    >> >> different codes."
    >> >>
    >> >> AWARD bios, INTEVA machine 1996, swapped video cards, memory
    >> >> swaps. Pwr Sup chk, no success.
    >> >>
    >> >> Could the ODIN CMOS chip, if the internal BATTERY were dead,
    >> >> prevent the machine from booting?
    >> >> (FYI and Dallas Semi says, battery life 5~10 years,)
    >> >> Any info would be appreciated.
    >> >>
    >> >> Thanks Ken.................
    >> >>
    >> >> PS. Old machines that still do a job are hard to give up.
    >> >
    >> > If I recall, Phoenix Bios, battery failure. Can't find my BIOS
    >> > book to
    >> > confirm it. On some machines you can plug in an external battery.
    >> > Often 4 AA cells or 6volt Lithium battery. Assuming you can still
    >> > find one.
    >> >

    >>
    >> You can use an archived copy of the bioscentral.com site, to look
    >> for beep codes. Don't use the current site - the browser marked
    >> it as a known "attack" site, so the current site is not safe.
    >> The archive should be OK.
    >>
    >>

    >

    http://web.archive.org/web/20060314035442/www.bioscentral.com/beepcodes/awar
    > dbeep.htm
    >>
    >> ( Warning -- http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/bioscentral.com )
    >>
    >> *******
    >>
    >> This isn't a real data sheet, but is as close as I could get.
    >>
    >>

    >

    http://web.archive.org/web/19980610044002/http://www.dalsemi.com/DocControl/
    > PDFs/12887a.pdf
    >>
    >> http://www.qxsz.com/images/time/12c887.gif
    >>
    >> (Dallas is now a part of Maxim.)
    >> http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/503
    >>
    >> http://www.epower2go.biz/index1.html
    >>
    >> http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/81/3
    >>
    >> Someone even makes a board, to write stuff into the RTC.
    >> Presumably, for those cases, where the RTC cannot be erased,
    >> or the BIOS won't program it. This thing is old enough, it is
    >> still an ISA board.
    >>
    >> http://www.costronic.com/Ev656.htm
    >>
    >> Good luck,
    >> Paul


    --
    Best Regards:
    Baron.
     
    Baron, May 15, 2009
    #5
  6. "KHL" <> wrote in message
    news:4a0d82b6$0$2693$...
    > Paul, Baron
    > Thanks for the info, the last Link I think is the ticket (hoping) ..
    > That is a great site, http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/81/3
    > My next trick is the surgery.
    >
    > I'm still wondering, if the battery is dead, will it boot, as in
    > give me something to the monitor..?
    > The appnote from the Maxim link does not say this specifically.
    >
    > Thanks Again Ken
    >
    > Paul <> wrote in message
    > news:gui479$shr$...
    >> Baron wrote:
    >> > KHL wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> Old machine, clean, 13 years old, "NO VIDEO signal", ran flawlessly
    >> >> for 13 years.
    >> >> "ERROR BEEPS at post ", Beep Beep,(pause) Beep Boop !
    >> >> Can not find this audio code anywhere,
    >> >> Found statements like, "too many different machine,each may have
    >> >> different codes."
    >> >>
    >> >> AWARD bios, INTEVA machine 1996, swapped video cards, memory swaps.
    >> >> Pwr Sup chk, no success.
    >> >>
    >> >> Could the ODIN CMOS chip, if the internal BATTERY were dead,
    >> >> prevent the machine from booting?
    >> >> (FYI and Dallas Semi says, battery life 5~10 years,)
    >> >> Any info would be appreciated.
    >> >>
    >> >> Thanks Ken.................
    >> >>
    >> >> PS. Old machines that still do a job are hard to give up.
    >> >
    >> > If I recall, Phoenix Bios, battery failure. Can't find my BIOS book to
    >> > confirm it. On some machines you can plug in an external battery.
    >> > Often 4 AA cells or 6volt Lithium battery. Assuming you can still find
    >> > one.
    >> >

    >>
    >> You can use an archived copy of the bioscentral.com site, to look
    >> for beep codes. Don't use the current site - the browser marked
    >> it as a known "attack" site, so the current site is not safe.
    >> The archive should be OK.
    >>
    >>

    > http://web.archive.org/web/20060314035442/www.bioscentral.com/beepcodes/awar
    > dbeep.htm
    >>
    >> ( Warning -- http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/bioscentral.com )
    >>
    >> *******
    >>
    >> This isn't a real data sheet, but is as close as I could get.
    >>
    >>

    > http://web.archive.org/web/19980610044002/http://www.dalsemi.com/DocControl/
    > PDFs/12887a.pdf
    >>
    >> http://www.qxsz.com/images/time/12c887.gif
    >>
    >> (Dallas is now a part of Maxim.)
    >> http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/503
    >>
    >> http://www.epower2go.biz/index1.html
    >>
    >> http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/81/3
    >>
    >> Someone even makes a board, to write stuff into the RTC.
    >> Presumably, for those cases, where the RTC cannot be erased,
    >> or the BIOS won't program it. This thing is old enough, it is
    >> still an ISA board.
    >>
    >> http://www.costronic.com/Ev656.htm
    >>
    >> Good luck,
    >> Paul

    >



    Maybe a stupid question on my part or a blaring overlook of something, but
    can't you just replace the battery? A lot of problems with my older systems
    were solved with a couple bucks and a trip to Wally World.

    What am I missing here?

    Woof
     
    James D. Andrews, May 15, 2009
    #6
  7. KHL

    Paul Guest

    James D. Andrews wrote:
    > "KHL" <> wrote in message
    > news:4a0d82b6$0$2693$...
    >> Paul, Baron
    >> Thanks for the info, the last Link I think is the ticket (hoping) ..
    >> That is a great site, http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/81/3
    >> My next trick is the surgery.
    >>
    >> I'm still wondering, if the battery is dead, will it boot, as in
    >> give me something to the monitor..?
    >> The appnote from the Maxim link does not say this specifically.
    >>
    >> Thanks Again Ken
    >>
    >> Paul <> wrote in message
    >> news:gui479$shr$...
    >>> Baron wrote:
    >>>> KHL wrote:
    >>>>
    >>>>> Old machine, clean, 13 years old, "NO VIDEO signal", ran flawlessly
    >>>>> for 13 years.
    >>>>> "ERROR BEEPS at post ", Beep Beep,(pause) Beep Boop !
    >>>>> Can not find this audio code anywhere,
    >>>>> Found statements like, "too many different machine,each may have
    >>>>> different codes."
    >>>>>
    >>>>> AWARD bios, INTEVA machine 1996, swapped video cards, memory swaps.
    >>>>> Pwr Sup chk, no success.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Could the ODIN CMOS chip, if the internal BATTERY were dead,
    >>>>> prevent the machine from booting?
    >>>>> (FYI and Dallas Semi says, battery life 5~10 years,)
    >>>>> Any info would be appreciated.
    >>>>>
    >>>>> Thanks Ken.................
    >>>>>
    >>>>> PS. Old machines that still do a job are hard to give up.
    >>>> If I recall, Phoenix Bios, battery failure. Can't find my BIOS book to
    >>>> confirm it. On some machines you can plug in an external battery.
    >>>> Often 4 AA cells or 6volt Lithium battery. Assuming you can still find
    >>>> one.
    >>>>
    >>> You can use an archived copy of the bioscentral.com site, to look
    >>> for beep codes. Don't use the current site - the browser marked
    >>> it as a known "attack" site, so the current site is not safe.
    >>> The archive should be OK.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> http://web.archive.org/web/20060314035442/www.bioscentral.com/beepcodes/awar
    >> dbeep.htm
    >>> ( Warning -- http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/bioscentral.com )
    >>>
    >>> *******
    >>>
    >>> This isn't a real data sheet, but is as close as I could get.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> http://web.archive.org/web/19980610044002/http://www.dalsemi.com/DocControl/
    >> PDFs/12887a.pdf
    >>> http://www.qxsz.com/images/time/12c887.gif
    >>>
    >>> (Dallas is now a part of Maxim.)
    >>> http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/503
    >>>
    >>> http://www.epower2go.biz/index1.html
    >>>
    >>> http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/81/3
    >>>
    >>> Someone even makes a board, to write stuff into the RTC.
    >>> Presumably, for those cases, where the RTC cannot be erased,
    >>> or the BIOS won't program it. This thing is old enough, it is
    >>> still an ISA board.
    >>>
    >>> http://www.costronic.com/Ev656.htm
    >>>
    >>> Good luck,
    >>> Paul

    >
    >
    > Maybe a stupid question on my part or a blaring overlook of something, but
    > can't you just replace the battery? A lot of problems with my older systems
    > were solved with a couple bucks and a trip to Wally World.
    >
    > What am I missing here?
    >
    > Woof
    >


    The Dallas chips, have the battery hidden inside the plastic.
    Which is a stupid move, but does make manufacturing easier.
    (The component is probably safe to wash with flux remover.)

    I've seen one person, Dremel the plastic off one of those
    chips, and fit batteries to it, but the result was just
    a mess. It helps if you know the internal layout, so you
    don't Dremel the wrong thing (like cut a conductor).

    The batteries are what makes this component, taller than normal.
    The IC is in the bottom half, the batteries above. There might
    even be a 32KHz quartz crystal in there as well.

    http://sales.jack.ch/images/DSC00605_Dallas_DS12887_RTC.JPG

    What I don't understand, is if +5V is available on the board,
    the Dallas chip has a +5V input as well as the battery internally.
    You'd think, via diode ORing, that the motherboard power supply
    would power the Dallas, even if the BIOS settings and time
    were corrupted. So as far as I can see, the BIOS should still
    start. The issue would be, whether the BIOS has the modern
    startup logic in it, to compute the checksum of the CMOS
    RAM locations (114 bytes?), and overwrite them to default values
    if the checksum indicates corruption.

    The difference on a modern motherboard, where it stops booting
    when the battery is dead, is on the modern motherboard, the
    CMOS battery actually powers a small portion of the Southbridge
    "well". Everything in the well is supposed to be isolated
    with transmission gates, so there shouldn't be phantom current
    flow and the like. And yet, there are persistent reports, that
    on some motherboards, a flat battery prevents booting. And that
    suggests that other portions of the Southbridge, or perhaps
    some power management logic, is being compromised by the flat
    battery.

    In the case of the Dallas, it is a separate subsystem, and has a
    byte wide parallel bus connected to some other component on the
    motherboard. It doesn't get its fingers into any power management
    logic. Depending on whether the outputs are failsafe or not,
    I suppose it could clamp the bus it's on, to ground. But I don't even
    know the name of the bus a thing like that sits on, in an older
    PC architecture. (Would they put that on the ISA bus ?)

    Paul
     
    Paul, May 15, 2009
    #7
  8. KHL

    KHL Guest

    Paul <> wrote in message
    news:gukgev$tt5$...
    > James D. Andrews wrote:
    > > "KHL" <> wrote in message
    > > news:4a0d82b6$0$2693$...
    > >> Paul, Baron
    > >> Thanks for the info, the last Link I think is the ticket (hoping) ..
    > >> That is a great site, http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/81/3
    > >> My next trick is the surgery.
    > >>
    > >> I'm still wondering, if the battery is dead, will it boot, as in
    > >> give me something to the monitor..?
    > >> The appnote from the Maxim link does not say this specifically.
    > >>
    > >> Thanks Again Ken
    > >>
    > >> Paul <> wrote in message
    > >> news:gui479$shr$...
    > >>> Baron wrote:
    > >>>> KHL wrote:
    > >>>>
    > >>>>> Old machine, clean, 13 years old, "NO VIDEO signal", ran flawlessly
    > >>>>> for 13 years.
    > >>>>> "ERROR BEEPS at post ", Beep Beep,(pause) Beep Boop !
    > >>>>> Can not find this audio code anywhere,
    > >>>>> Found statements like, "too many different machine,each may have
    > >>>>> different codes."
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> AWARD bios, INTEVA machine 1996, swapped video cards, memory swaps.
    > >>>>> Pwr Sup chk, no success.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> Could the ODIN CMOS chip, if the internal BATTERY were dead,
    > >>>>> prevent the machine from booting?
    > >>>>> (FYI and Dallas Semi says, battery life 5~10 years,)
    > >>>>> Any info would be appreciated.
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> Thanks Ken.................
    > >>>>>
    > >>>>> PS. Old machines that still do a job are hard to give up.
    > >>>> If I recall, Phoenix Bios, battery failure. Can't find my BIOS book

    to
    > >>>> confirm it. On some machines you can plug in an external battery.
    > >>>> Often 4 AA cells or 6volt Lithium battery. Assuming you can still

    find
    > >>>> one.
    > >>>>
    > >>> You can use an archived copy of the bioscentral.com site, to look
    > >>> for beep codes. Don't use the current site - the browser marked
    > >>> it as a known "attack" site, so the current site is not safe.
    > >>> The archive should be OK.
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>

    http://web.archive.org/web/20060314035442/www.bioscentral.com/beepcodes/awar
    > >> dbeep.htm
    > >>> ( Warning -- http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/bioscentral.com )
    > >>>
    > >>> *******
    > >>>
    > >>> This isn't a real data sheet, but is as close as I could get.
    > >>>
    > >>>
    > >>

    http://web.archive.org/web/19980610044002/http://www.dalsemi.com/DocControl/
    > >> PDFs/12887a.pdf
    > >>> http://www.qxsz.com/images/time/12c887.gif
    > >>>
    > >>> (Dallas is now a part of Maxim.)
    > >>> http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/503
    > >>>
    > >>> http://www.epower2go.biz/index1.html
    > >>>
    > >>> http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/81/3
    > >>>
    > >>> Someone even makes a board, to write stuff into the RTC.
    > >>> Presumably, for those cases, where the RTC cannot be erased,
    > >>> or the BIOS won't program it. This thing is old enough, it is
    > >>> still an ISA board.
    > >>>
    > >>> http://www.costronic.com/Ev656.htm
    > >>>
    > >>> Good luck,
    > >>> Paul

    > >
    > >
    > > Maybe a stupid question on my part or a blaring overlook of something,

    but
    > > can't you just replace the battery? A lot of problems with my older

    systems
    > > were solved with a couple bucks and a trip to Wally World.
    > >
    > > What am I missing here?
    > >
    > > Woof
    > >

    >
    > The Dallas chips, have the battery hidden inside the plastic.
    > Which is a stupid move, but does make manufacturing easier.
    > (The component is probably safe to wash with flux remover.)
    >
    > I've seen one person, Dremel the plastic off one of those
    > chips, and fit batteries to it, but the result was just
    > a mess. It helps if you know the internal layout, so you
    > don't Dremel the wrong thing (like cut a conductor).
    >
    > The batteries are what makes this component, taller than normal.
    > The IC is in the bottom half, the batteries above. There might
    > even be a 32KHz quartz crystal in there as well.
    >
    > http://sales.jack.ch/images/DSC00605_Dallas_DS12887_RTC.JPG
    >
    > What I don't understand, is if +5V is available on the board,
    > the Dallas chip has a +5V input as well as the battery internally.
    > You'd think, via diode ORing, that the motherboard power supply
    > would power the Dallas, even if the BIOS settings and time
    > were corrupted. So as far as I can see, the BIOS should still
    > start. The issue would be, whether the BIOS has the modern
    > startup logic in it, to compute the checksum of the CMOS
    > RAM locations (114 bytes?), and overwrite them to default values
    > if the checksum indicates corruption.
    >
    > The difference on a modern motherboard, where it stops booting
    > when the battery is dead, is on the modern motherboard, the
    > CMOS battery actually powers a small portion of the Southbridge
    > "well". Everything in the well is supposed to be isolated
    > with transmission gates, so there shouldn't be phantom current
    > flow and the like. And yet, there are persistent reports, that
    > on some motherboards, a flat battery prevents booting. And that
    > suggests that other portions of the Southbridge, or perhaps
    > some power management logic, is being compromised by the flat
    > battery.
    >
    > In the case of the Dallas, it is a separate subsystem, and has a
    > byte wide parallel bus connected to some other component on the
    > motherboard. It doesn't get its fingers into any power management
    > logic. Depending on whether the outputs are failsafe or not,
    > I suppose it could clamp the bus it's on, to ground. But I don't even
    > know the name of the bus a thing like that sits on, in an older
    > PC architecture. (Would they put that on the ISA bus ?)
    >
    > Paul


    Paul,
    My reasoning all started from my HP 6653C , the battery died,
    nothing ,no boot. Changed the battery, ran a scan disk, OK....

    Your last description of the boot process complements other
    explanations I've read, that made me aware for differing/
    variations in the bios/boot sequence. Traced many runs on the Pcb
    the +5V pin 24 connection goes right to the Pwr Sup +5.
    The description of operation specks of biasing at Pwr down,
    dropping below 4.25V and then to 3V, my thoughts were
    to a DELAY at Pwr up if the battery was dead.
    That is why I ask and research the "NO VIDEO" at boot,
    the fans spin up, HDD winds up, this is more than the
    HP did when its battery died.
    The HP is from 2000, many changes in 4years..

    At present collecting tools and thoughts to remove the top
    of the RTC. It is positioned between the ISA and PCI slots,
    next to the bios and a few jumpers on both sides. Like it's
    being protected from hands such as mine.
    WITH CARE, will be the theme...

    A thought, if I added INTEVA to my original post, possible a tech
    with "hands on" might respond, they had a shop/show room 5 miles
    from me years ago.(Pipersville Pa)...

    Thank Again, Ken
     
    KHL, May 17, 2009
    #8
  9. KHL

    Paul Guest

    KHL wrote:

    >
    > Paul,
    > My reasoning all started from my HP 6653C , the battery died,
    > nothing ,no boot. Changed the battery, ran a scan disk, OK....
    >
    > Your last description of the boot process complements other
    > explanations I've read, that made me aware for differing/
    > variations in the bios/boot sequence. Traced many runs on the Pcb
    > the +5V pin 24 connection goes right to the Pwr Sup +5.
    > The description of operation specks of biasing at Pwr down,
    > dropping below 4.25V and then to 3V, my thoughts were
    > to a DELAY at Pwr up if the battery was dead.
    > That is why I ask and research the "NO VIDEO" at boot,
    > the fans spin up, HDD winds up, this is more than the
    > HP did when its battery died.
    > The HP is from 2000, many changes in 4years..
    >
    > At present collecting tools and thoughts to remove the top
    > of the RTC. It is positioned between the ISA and PCI slots,
    > next to the bios and a few jumpers on both sides. Like it's
    > being protected from hands such as mine.
    > WITH CARE, will be the theme...
    >
    > A thought, if I added INTEVA to my original post, possible a tech
    > with "hands on" might respond, they had a shop/show room 5 miles
    > from me years ago.(Pipersville Pa)...
    >
    > Thank Again, Ken
    >
    >


    You can see some examples on this page. The description here is
    for a different chip. Maybe check with a multimeter, and see what
    voltage is present between pin 16 and pin 20 ? The thing is, the
    Dallas data aheet may list the pins as "NC" for no connect, but
    it would make sense if the battery voltage could be monitored
    externally. (The other question would be, what is the valid
    battery voltage. Is the internal cell a 3V type ?)

    http://www.mcamafia.de/mcapage0/dsrework.htm

    This is the kind of Dremel work I've seen depicted years
    ago. This is more or less exploratory surgery, to see what
    is inside.

    http://www.mcamafia.de/mcapage0/jpg/ds1287_test.jpg

    Paul
     
    Paul, May 17, 2009
    #9
  10. KHL

    KHL Guest

    Re: ODIN OCE12C887A (RTC) LATEST

    Finally got the right tools (mini dremel and regular size)
    the circuit inside the case/cover is back filled with epoxy,

    I spent 30yrs in microelectronics, and remember well doing
    just that. Actually the epoxy might be Emerson Cummings 2850,
    this material is like a rock after it's cured,

    Next step, remove the IC, order a new one with socket.
    Wonder if I can still solder without a microscope?
    At this point it is strictly a hobby/game/exercise,
    would never make any money at this rate.

    Should you hear of another with an ODIN RTC,
    mention to him the careful dremel surgery is not an option..

    Again thanks for the effort and info, I'll post when
    I complete the project, hopefully with success.
    Ken


    KHL <> wrote in message
    news:4a104ca4$0$2699$...
    >
    > Paul <> wrote in message
    > news:gukgev$tt5$...
    > > James D. Andrews wrote:
    > > > "KHL" <> wrote in message
    > > > news:4a0d82b6$0$2693$...
    > > >> Paul, Baron
    > > >> Thanks for the info, the last Link I think is the ticket (hoping) ..
    > > >> That is a great site, http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/81/3
    > > >> My next trick is the surgery.
    > > >>
    > > >> I'm still wondering, if the battery is dead, will it boot, as in
    > > >> give me something to the monitor..?
    > > >> The appnote from the Maxim link does not say this specifically.
    > > >>
    > > >> Thanks Again Ken
    > > >>
    > > >> Paul <> wrote in message
    > > >> news:gui479$shr$...
    > > >>> Baron wrote:
    > > >>>> KHL wrote:
    > > >>>>
    > > >>>>> Old machine, clean, 13 years old, "NO VIDEO signal", ran

    flawlessly
    > > >>>>> for 13 years.
    > > >>>>> "ERROR BEEPS at post ", Beep Beep,(pause) Beep Boop !
    > > >>>>> Can not find this audio code anywhere,
    > > >>>>> Found statements like, "too many different machine,each may have
    > > >>>>> different codes."
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>> AWARD bios, INTEVA machine 1996, swapped video cards, memory

    swaps.
    > > >>>>> Pwr Sup chk, no success.
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>> Could the ODIN CMOS chip, if the internal BATTERY were dead,
    > > >>>>> prevent the machine from booting?
    > > >>>>> (FYI and Dallas Semi says, battery life 5~10 years,)
    > > >>>>> Any info would be appreciated.
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>> Thanks Ken.................
    > > >>>>>
    > > >>>>> PS. Old machines that still do a job are hard to give up.
    > > >>>> If I recall, Phoenix Bios, battery failure. Can't find my BIOS

    book
    > to
    > > >>>> confirm it. On some machines you can plug in an external battery.
    > > >>>> Often 4 AA cells or 6volt Lithium battery. Assuming you can still

    > find
    > > >>>> one.
    > > >>>>
    > > >>> You can use an archived copy of the bioscentral.com site, to look
    > > >>> for beep codes. Don't use the current site - the browser marked
    > > >>> it as a known "attack" site, so the current site is not safe.
    > > >>> The archive should be OK.
    > > >>>
    > > >>>
    > > >>

    >

    http://web.archive.org/web/20060314035442/www.bioscentral.com/beepcodes/awar
    > > >> dbeep.htm
    > > >>> ( Warning -- http://www.siteadvisor.com/sites/bioscentral.com )
    > > >>>
    > > >>> *******
    > > >>>
    > > >>> This isn't a real data sheet, but is as close as I could get.
    > > >>>
    > > >>>
    > > >>

    >

    http://web.archive.org/web/19980610044002/http://www.dalsemi.com/DocControl/
    > > >> PDFs/12887a.pdf
    > > >>> http://www.qxsz.com/images/time/12c887.gif
    > > >>>
    > > >>> (Dallas is now a part of Maxim.)
    > > >>> http://www.maxim-ic.com/appnotes.cfm/appnote_number/503
    > > >>>
    > > >>> http://www.epower2go.biz/index1.html
    > > >>>
    > > >>> http://www.hardwaresecrets.com/article/81/3
    > > >>>
    > > >>> Someone even makes a board, to write stuff into the RTC.
    > > >>> Presumably, for those cases, where the RTC cannot be erased,
    > > >>> or the BIOS won't program it. This thing is old enough, it is
    > > >>> still an ISA board.
    > > >>>
    > > >>> http://www.costronic.com/Ev656.htm
    > > >>>
    > > >>> Good luck,
    > > >>> Paul
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > Maybe a stupid question on my part or a blaring overlook of something,

    > but
    > > > can't you just replace the battery? A lot of problems with my older

    > systems
    > > > were solved with a couple bucks and a trip to Wally World.
    > > >
    > > > What am I missing here?
    > > >
    > > > Woof
    > > >

    > >
    > > The Dallas chips, have the battery hidden inside the plastic.
    > > Which is a stupid move, but does make manufacturing easier.
    > > (The component is probably safe to wash with flux remover.)
    > >
    > > I've seen one person, Dremel the plastic off one of those
    > > chips, and fit batteries to it, but the result was just
    > > a mess. It helps if you know the internal layout, so you
    > > don't Dremel the wrong thing (like cut a conductor).
    > >
    > > The batteries are what makes this component, taller than normal.
    > > The IC is in the bottom half, the batteries above. There might
    > > even be a 32KHz quartz crystal in there as well.
    > >
    > > http://sales.jack.ch/images/DSC00605_Dallas_DS12887_RTC.JPG
    > >
    > > What I don't understand, is if +5V is available on the board,
    > > the Dallas chip has a +5V input as well as the battery internally.
    > > You'd think, via diode ORing, that the motherboard power supply
    > > would power the Dallas, even if the BIOS settings and time
    > > were corrupted. So as far as I can see, the BIOS should still
    > > start. The issue would be, whether the BIOS has the modern
    > > startup logic in it, to compute the checksum of the CMOS
    > > RAM locations (114 bytes?), and overwrite them to default values
    > > if the checksum indicates corruption.
    > >
    > > The difference on a modern motherboard, where it stops booting
    > > when the battery is dead, is on the modern motherboard, the
    > > CMOS battery actually powers a small portion of the Southbridge
    > > "well". Everything in the well is supposed to be isolated
    > > with transmission gates, so there shouldn't be phantom current
    > > flow and the like. And yet, there are persistent reports, that
    > > on some motherboards, a flat battery prevents booting. And that
    > > suggests that other portions of the Southbridge, or perhaps
    > > some power management logic, is being compromised by the flat
    > > battery.
    > >
    > > In the case of the Dallas, it is a separate subsystem, and has a
    > > byte wide parallel bus connected to some other component on the
    > > motherboard. It doesn't get its fingers into any power management
    > > logic. Depending on whether the outputs are failsafe or not,
    > > I suppose it could clamp the bus it's on, to ground. But I don't even
    > > know the name of the bus a thing like that sits on, in an older
    > > PC architecture. (Would they put that on the ISA bus ?)
    > >
    > > Paul

    >
    > Paul,
    > My reasoning all started from my HP 6653C , the battery died,
    > nothing ,no boot. Changed the battery, ran a scan disk, OK....
    >
    > Your last description of the boot process complements other
    > explanations I've read, that made me aware for differing/
    > variations in the bios/boot sequence. Traced many runs on the Pcb
    > the +5V pin 24 connection goes right to the Pwr Sup +5.
    > The description of operation specks of biasing at Pwr down,
    > dropping below 4.25V and then to 3V, my thoughts were
    > to a DELAY at Pwr up if the battery was dead.
    > That is why I ask and research the "NO VIDEO" at boot,
    > the fans spin up, HDD winds up, this is more than the
    > HP did when its battery died.
    > The HP is from 2000, many changes in 4years..
    >
    > At present collecting tools and thoughts to remove the top
    > of the RTC. It is positioned between the ISA and PCI slots,
    > next to the bios and a few jumpers on both sides. Like it's
    > being protected from hands such as mine.
    > WITH CARE, will be the theme...
    >
    > A thought, if I added INTEVA to my original post, possible a tech
    > with "hands on" might respond, they had a shop/show room 5 miles
    > from me years ago.(Pipersville Pa)...
    >
    > Thank Again, Ken
    >
    >
     
    KHL, May 28, 2009
    #10
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