NZ's knowledge economy

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by whome, Sep 27, 2006.

  1. whome

    whome Guest

    The current government has made a massive woop-de-doo about developing a
    knowledge economy here in NZ.

    But, they are all just talk, they don't even let bachelor level IT teachers
    get the full pay of say their maths or english equivalent.

    http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10403261

    Country facing a shortage of technology teachers

    New Zealand schools are facing a crisis as a lack of new recruits threaten
    to collapse the technology curriculum, the Post Primary Teachers Association
    says.

    PPTA executive member Penney Dunckley told the union's annual conference
    today technology teaching jobs represented nearly 20 per cent of all
    secondary school vacancies.

    Sixty two per cent of schools who responded to the PPTA's 2006 survey said
    they couldn't recruit new technology teachers, and therefore teachers with
    inappropriate qualifications were being asked to teach the subject.

    In 2003, 'G3' teachers - whose vocational qualifications had previously been
    considered equivalent to a bachelor's degree for pay purposes - were barred
    from the top level of the teaching pay scale.

    Ms Dunckley said higher salaries in the trades suggested the crisis would
    worsen.

    "The government says it is keen to encourage students to learn basic trade
    skills as well as more advanced technology at school, but the length of time
    taken to solve the G3 issue indicates the low priority placed on the real
    needs of students and teachers."

    - NZPA
     
    whome, Sep 27, 2006
    #1
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  2. whome

    Phil Guest

    whome wrote, On 27/09/06 10.12 p:
    > The current government has made a massive woop-de-doo about developing a
    > knowledge economy here in NZ.


    Didn't this die 2-3 years ago, about a week after they 'launched' it?

    -Phil
     
    Phil, Sep 27, 2006
    #2
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  3. whome

    Peter Ashby Guest

    whome <> wrote:

    > The current government has made a massive woop-de-doo about developing a
    > knowledge economy here in NZ.
    >
    > But, they are all just talk, they don't even let bachelor level IT teachers
    > get the full pay of say their maths or english equivalent.
    >
    > http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10403261
    >
    > Country facing a shortage of technology teachers


    Which you should know is indicative of a thriving technology employment
    sector. When qualified teachers can get more using their qualifications
    practically they leave teaching. It is simple supply and demand
    economics that can be seen in many sectors of many economies. When the
    economic sector declines then you get no problem with qualified teacher
    recruitment.

    Since economies go in sectors these things tend to average out over
    time. Of course one solution is variable pay but this leads inevitably
    to some teaching specialisms pulling way ahead of their colleagues as
    pay hardly ever tends to go down...

    Peter
    --
    Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country
     
    Peter Ashby, Sep 27, 2006
    #3
  4. In message <1hmbo2v.tyb1k73xi8xsN%>, Peter Ashby
    wrote:

    > whome <> wrote:
    >
    >> Country facing a shortage of technology teachers

    >
    > Which you should know is indicative of a thriving technology employment
    > sector. When qualified teachers can get more using their qualifications
    > practically they leave teaching. It is simple supply and demand
    > economics that can be seen in many sectors of many economies. When the
    > economic sector declines then you get no problem with qualified teacher
    > recruitment.


    What you're describing is a badly out-of-phase feedback system. Where did
    those qualified teachers get their qualifications from? They had to get
    them from other teachers who were qualified, but who were somehow persuaded
    not to leave teaching for jobs in industry.

    If the only specialties you can get qualified teachers for are those that
    are not in high demand in industry, then you're never going to get a
    properly-qualified work force.

    > Since economies go in sectors these things tend to average out over
    > time.


    Statistically, that's only valid if there _is_ an average. Many time series
    exist, including prices in economics, that have no long-term average.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 27, 2006
    #4
  5. whome

    Peter Ashby Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:

    > In message <1hmbo2v.tyb1k73xi8xsN%>, Peter Ashby
    > wrote:
    >
    > > whome <> wrote:
    > >
    > >> Country facing a shortage of technology teachers

    > >
    > > Which you should know is indicative of a thriving technology employment
    > > sector. When qualified teachers can get more using their qualifications
    > > practically they leave teaching. It is simple supply and demand
    > > economics that can be seen in many sectors of many economies. When the
    > > economic sector declines then you get no problem with qualified teacher
    > > recruitment.

    >
    > What you're describing is a badly out-of-phase feedback system. Where did
    > those qualified teachers get their qualifications from? They had to get
    > them from other teachers who were qualified, but who were somehow persuaded
    > not to leave teaching for jobs in industry.


    How can it be in phase? you not only need degree qualified teachers but
    you need them to have teachng qualifications as well. So that is a
    4-5year gap between demand and supply. Oh and if you want them to have
    industry experience to pass on you can add more years to that. Govt
    can't just snap its fingers and produce qualified, experienced staff
    from nowhere.

    > If the only specialties you can get qualified teachers for are those that
    > are not in high demand in industry, then you're never going to get a
    > properly-qualified work force.


    Never? in what planet are you living? If you suck qualified tech
    teachers out of the knowledge economy to teach what will that do for the
    knowledge economy? Then where would that leave the industry? Honestly
    people like you who can't think beyond simplistic knee jerk responses
    shouldn't be trusted with the vote.

    > > Since economies go in sectors these things tend to average out over
    > > time.

    >
    > Statistically, that's only valid if there _is_ an average. Many time series
    > exist, including prices in economics, that have no long-term average.


    Since your economic knowledge didn't know about simplistic things like
    thriving industries suck people out of schools I'll pass on taking an
    economics lesson from you.

    Peter
    --
    Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country
     
    Peter Ashby, Sep 27, 2006
    #5
  6. whome

    Earl Grey Guest

    Peter Ashby wrote:
    > Honestly
    > people like you who can't think beyond simplistic knee jerk responses
    > shouldn't be trusted with the vote.


    Oh the irony
     
    Earl Grey, Sep 27, 2006
    #6
  7. In article <1hmbu5x.mfg50rstm46eN%>,
    says...

    > Since your economic knowledge didn't know about simplistic things like
    > thriving industries suck people out of schools I'll pass on taking an
    > economics lesson from you.
    >
    > Peter
    > --


    Afraid your event horizon is not very broad, Peter. There are other countries
    where the exact opposite occurs: people out of the trades and industry go back
    to uni for a few years to qualify for teaching - because teaching is higher
    regarded in society and better paid. I know this because I used to teach
    education at uni to the buggers 20odd years back in Germany.

    By comparison, if I look at the education system in this country, teachers are
    under-educated, underpaid and suffer from relatively low respect in the
    community and in some schools seem more like victims than being in charge. I
    cannot believe the number of intermediate and secondary teachers (whom I have
    encountered) who are barely two days ahead of their students in terms of
    knowledge base. With an education system like that, how can we become a
    'knowledge economy'? I often feel that many young people who manage to get an
    education in this country do so despite the system, not because of it.

    Certainly if you have well paid teachers with good education that they have
    spent years acquiring in a system that works, they won't remotely be tempted to
    go out into the industry. THAT is a symptom of a system that is inadequate.

    I blame a great deal on David Lange, 'education minister', and 'Tomorrow's
    Schools' that he came up with. Democracy is all very well, but who would put
    the catering staff in charge of the running of the operations at a hospital?
    Who would put the parents in the unenviable position of telling the
    professionals how to run a school? Preposterous notion. I wouldn't want to work
    in this system a twice the going rate.

    -P.

    --
    =========================================
    firstname dot lastname at gmail fullstop com
     
    Peter Huebner, Sep 27, 2006
    #7
  8. whome

    Peter Ashby Guest

    Peter Huebner <> wrote:

    > In article <1hmbu5x.mfg50rstm46eN%>,
    > says...
    >
    > > Since your economic knowledge didn't know about simplistic things like
    > > thriving industries suck people out of schools I'll pass on taking an
    > > economics lesson from you.
    > >
    > > Peter
    > > --

    >
    > Afraid your event horizon is not very broad, Peter. There are other countries
    > where the exact opposite occurs: people out of the trades and industry go back
    > to uni for a few years to qualify for teaching - because teaching is higher
    > regarded in society and better paid. I know this because I used to teach
    > education at uni to the buggers 20odd years back in Germany.


    Au contraire, at the university dept my better half works in here in the
    UK they have a major problem getting good lecturers in several areas
    because they can get much more money working in the wider economy which
    is very buoyant at the moment.

    > By comparison, if I look at the education system in this country, teachers are
    > under-educated, underpaid and suffer from relatively low respect in the
    > community and in some schools seem more like victims than being in charge. I
    > cannot believe the number of intermediate and secondary teachers (whom I have
    > encountered) who are barely two days ahead of their students in terms of
    > knowledge base. With an education system like that, how can we become a
    > 'knowledge economy'? I often feel that many young people who manage to get an
    > education in this country do so despite the system, not because of it.


    My experience 20years ago was somewhat variable. Certainly I was taught
    Chemistry by a Geography graduate who was certainly not ahead of me. At
    the end of 7th form I gave up going to lessons and obviously took myself
    off to the library, textbook under my arm during chermistry lessons. On
    the other hand I can think of numerous very good teachers, in biology,
    physics and english in particular. Large, multiracial, both sexes,
    mainstream state school.

    > Certainly if you have well paid teachers with good education that they
    > have spent years acquiring in a system that works, they won't remotely be
    > tempted to go out into the industry. THAT is a symptom of a system that is
    > inadequate.


    That is only true in those subjects where teachers cannot easily move
    between the two. Thus we see the situation with technically qualified
    teachers. My children inform me the same situation pertains here in the
    UK wrt computing teachers. English teachers are not in short supply.

    Peter

    --
    Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country
     
    Peter Ashby, Sep 27, 2006
    #8
  9. whome

    whome Guest

    "Peter Ashby" <> wrote in message
    news:1hmbo2v.tyb1k73xi8xsN%...
    > whome <> wrote:
    >
    >> The current government has made a massive woop-de-doo about developing a
    >> knowledge economy here in NZ.
    >>
    >> But, they are all just talk, they don't even let bachelor level IT
    >> teachers
    >> get the full pay of say their maths or english equivalent.
    >>
    >> http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10403261
    >>
    >> Country facing a shortage of technology teachers

    >
    > Which you should know is indicative of a thriving technology employment
    > sector. When qualified teachers can get more using their qualifications
    > practically they leave teaching. It is simple supply and demand
    > economics that can be seen in many sectors of many economies. When the
    > economic sector declines then you get no problem with qualified teacher
    > recruitment.
    >
    > Since economies go in sectors these things tend to average out over
    > time. Of course one solution is variable pay but this leads inevitably
    > to some teaching specialisms pulling way ahead of their colleagues as
    > pay hardly ever tends to go down...
    >
    > Peter
    > --
    > Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country


    My point is that technology teachers cannot get the same pay level as their
    peers. This seems wrong to me.
     
    whome, Sep 27, 2006
    #9
  10. whome

    Barry Lennox Guest

    On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 22:12:25 +1200, "whome" <> wrote:

    >The current government has made a massive woop-de-doo about developing a
    >knowledge economy here in NZ.
    >


    snip

    As usual they are all talk and basically FITH. This started a few
    years ago with jabber about the "knowledge wave" It was dropped within
    a few months when they realised they had no clue about technology,
    However, one of the final nails in the coffin was the layabout
    pot-smokers being fooled by the oldest trick in a schoolboy's book (a
    fancy name for water)

    I do recall the days of Nelcon's and each year the poly's used to
    send their "best" technology-oriented MP to open it. Every one was an
    utter joke.
     
    Barry Lennox, Sep 27, 2006
    #10
  11. Riding the knowledge wave economy movement died when people realized
    that some were using it as a front to get a re-run of the 1984 - 1999
    new right, free market , greed era


    Patrick
     
    Patrick FitzGerald, Sep 27, 2006
    #11
  12. whome

    jay Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > The current government has made a massive woop-de-doo about developing a
    > knowledge economy here in NZ.
    >
    > But, they are all just talk, they don't even let bachelor level IT teachers
    > get the full pay of say their maths or english equivalent.


    Doesn't mention IT in this article, it's the technology trades they are
    so concerned about.

    My brothers highschool has two BA grads teaching their technology
    trades, while he teaches the IT classes and earns *more* than his
    english/maths colleagues.

    > http://www.nzherald.co.nz/section/story.cfm?c_id=1&ObjectID=10403261
    > Country facing a shortage of technology teachers
    >
    > New Zealand schools are facing a crisis as a lack of new recruits threaten
    > to collapse the technology curriculum, the Post Primary Teachers Association
    > says.
    >
    > PPTA executive member Penney Dunckley told the union's annual conference
    > today technology teaching jobs represented nearly 20 per cent of all
    > secondary school vacancies.
    >
    > Sixty two per cent of schools who responded to the PPTA's 2006 survey said
    > they couldn't recruit new technology teachers, and therefore teachers with
    > inappropriate qualifications were being asked to teach the subject.
    >
    > In 2003, 'G3' teachers - whose vocational qualifications had previously been
    > considered equivalent to a bachelor's degree for pay purposes - were barred
    > from the top level of the teaching pay scale.
    >
    > Ms Dunckley said higher salaries in the trades suggested the crisis would
    > worsen.
    >
    > "The government says it is keen to encourage students to learn basic trade
    > skills as well as more advanced technology at school, but the length of time
    > taken to solve the G3 issue indicates the low priority placed on the real
    > needs of students and teachers."
    >
    > - NZPA
    >
    >
    >
     
    jay, Sep 27, 2006
    #12
  13. In message <1hmc5o9.k0g9fzox4laN%>, Peter Ashby
    wrote:

    > Peter Huebner <> wrote:
    >
    >> In article <1hmbu5x.mfg50rstm46eN%>,
    >> says...
    >>
    >> > Since your economic knowledge didn't know about simplistic things like
    >> > thriving industries suck people out of schools I'll pass on taking an
    >> > economics lesson from you.

    >>
    >> Afraid your event horizon is not very broad, Peter. There are other
    >> countries where the exact opposite occurs: people out of the trades and
    >> industry go back to uni for a few years to qualify for teaching - because
    >> teaching is higher regarded in society and better paid. I know this
    >> because I used to teach education at uni to the buggers 20odd years back
    >> in Germany.

    >
    > Au contraire, at the university dept my better half works in here in the
    > UK they have a major problem getting good lecturers in several areas
    > because they can get much more money working in the wider economy which
    > is very buoyant at the moment.


    Now do you begin to understand why MP3 was invented at the Frauhofer
    Institutes, not at Oxford or Cambridge; why the Germans were able to come
    up with a world-class Linux distro and the Brits were not; and why there
    are more Germanic names than Anglo-Saxon ones on the KDE developer team?

    There are lots of parts of the world where learning, and purveyors of
    learning, are highly valued. Including large swathes of Asia. And guess
    where some of the world's fastest growing economies are located?
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 28, 2006
    #13
  14. whome

    John B Guest

    "Patrick FitzGerald" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >
    >
    > Riding the knowledge wave economy movement died when people
    > realized
    > that some were using it as a front to get a re-run of the
    > 1984 - 1999
    > new right, free market , greed era


    You're talking about me, there, Spud.

    I use the knowledge economy to make US$. It's coming along very
    nicely too, thanks.

    You stick to sweeping the puss-ridden foul-smelling floor at your
    master's feet. It's all you are worthy of.

    And keep your hatred and envy going by calling me greedy and
    think about me soaking up the freedom and rewards making US$
    gives me.

    Ah, life can be so good if you get off your fat lazy arse and do
    something for yourself.



    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
     
    John B, Sep 28, 2006
    #14
  15. whome

    Earl Grey Guest

    John B wrote:
    > "Patrick FitzGerald" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >>
    >>
    >> Riding the knowledge wave economy movement died when people
    >> realized
    >> that some were using it as a front to get a re-run of the
    >> 1984 - 1999
    >> new right, free market , greed era

    >
    > You're talking about me, there, Spud.
    >
    > I use the knowledge economy to make US$. It's coming along very
    > nicely too, thanks.
    >
    > You stick to sweeping the puss-ridden foul-smelling floor at your
    > master's feet. It's all you are worthy of.
    >
    > And keep your hatred and envy going by calling me greedy and
    > think about me soaking up the freedom and rewards making US$
    > gives me.
    >
    > Ah, life can be so good if you get off your fat lazy arse and do
    > something for yourself.
    >
    >
    >

    So did you have a fat lazy arse ?
     
    Earl Grey, Sep 28, 2006
    #15
  16. whome

    John B Guest

    "Earl Grey" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > John B wrote:
    >> "Patrick FitzGerald" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Riding the knowledge wave economy movement died when people
    >>> realized
    >>> that some were using it as a front to get a re-run of the
    >>> 1984 - 1999
    >>> new right, free market , greed era

    >>
    >> You're talking about me, there, Spud.
    >>
    >> I use the knowledge economy to make US$. It's coming along
    >> very nicely too, thanks.
    >>
    >> You stick to sweeping the puss-ridden foul-smelling floor at
    >> your master's feet. It's all you are worthy of.
    >>
    >> And keep your hatred and envy going by calling me greedy and
    >> think about me soaking up the freedom and rewards making US$
    >> gives me.
    >>
    >> Ah, life can be so good if you get off your fat lazy arse and
    >> do something for yourself.

    > So did you have a fat lazy arse ?


    Nope.



    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
     
    John B, Sep 28, 2006
    #16
  17. In message <451b158b$0$19735$>, John B wrote:

    > I use the knowledge economy to make US$. It's coming along very
    > nicely too, thanks.


    Are you putting anything into EUR, or are you keeping it all in USD?

    Putting all your eggs in the USD basket may not be wise. All it takes is for
    the oil producers to finally decide to price in EUR instead of USD, and
    that will cause _major_ ructions down the track.
     
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Sep 28, 2006
    #17
  18. whome

    Peter Ashby Guest

    Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:

    > In message <1hmc5o9.k0g9fzox4laN%>, Peter Ashby
    > wrote:
    >
    > > Peter Huebner <> wrote:
    > >
    > >> In article <1hmbu5x.mfg50rstm46eN%>,
    > >> says...
    > >>
    > >> > Since your economic knowledge didn't know about simplistic things like
    > >> > thriving industries suck people out of schools I'll pass on taking an
    > >> > economics lesson from you.
    > >>
    > >> Afraid your event horizon is not very broad, Peter. There are other
    > >> countries where the exact opposite occurs: people out of the trades and
    > >> industry go back to uni for a few years to qualify for teaching - because
    > >> teaching is higher regarded in society and better paid. I know this
    > >> because I used to teach education at uni to the buggers 20odd years back
    > >> in Germany.

    > >
    > > Au contraire, at the university dept my better half works in here in the
    > > UK they have a major problem getting good lecturers in several areas
    > > because they can get much more money working in the wider economy which
    > > is very buoyant at the moment.

    >
    > Now do you begin to understand why MP3 was invented at the Frauhofer
    > Institutes, not at Oxford or Cambridge; why the Germans were able to come
    > up with a world-class Linux distro and the Brits were not; and why there
    > are more Germanic names than Anglo-Saxon ones on the KDE developer team?
    >
    > There are lots of parts of the world where learning, and purveyors of
    > learning, are highly valued. Including large swathes of Asia. And guess
    > where some of the world's fastest growing economies are located?


    Hmmm, your rosy picture of Germany does not chime with the attitude of
    the German research student I supervised a few years ago. He was
    frustrated with the protracted nature of tertiary education in Germany
    which was how come he came to the UK for his project (He's currently in
    the US doing a PhD).

    Here in the UK there are serious suggestions that we, in essence,
    reconstitute the polytechs, there are none left here, they have all
    become 'universities'. The whole apprentice system get broken and now we
    are importing Polish plumbers.

    So you may forgive me if I am more than a little wary of simplistic and
    stereotypical analyses and solutions. I am also very aware of the law of
    unintended consequnces and while paying particular teaching specialities
    more has superficial merit it may cause many more problems than it
    solves.

    As with the supply of doctors where the lag time from demand to supply
    is very long, engineering solutions are not always easy. I'm certainly
    glad I'm not a medic in today's world.

    Peter
    --
    Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country
     
    Peter Ashby, Sep 28, 2006
    #18
  19. whome

    whome Guest

    "Peter Ashby" <> wrote in message
    news:1hmd74m.1s852qo142tux0N%...
    > Lawrence D'Oliveiro <_zealand> wrote:
    >
    >> In message <1hmc5o9.k0g9fzox4laN%>, Peter Ashby
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> > Peter Huebner <> wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> In article <1hmbu5x.mfg50rstm46eN%>,
    >> >> says...
    >> >>
    >> >> > Since your economic knowledge didn't know about simplistic things
    >> >> > like
    >> >> > thriving industries suck people out of schools I'll pass on taking
    >> >> > an
    >> >> > economics lesson from you.
    >> >>
    >> >> Afraid your event horizon is not very broad, Peter. There are other
    >> >> countries where the exact opposite occurs: people out of the trades
    >> >> and
    >> >> industry go back to uni for a few years to qualify for teaching -
    >> >> because
    >> >> teaching is higher regarded in society and better paid. I know this
    >> >> because I used to teach education at uni to the buggers 20odd years
    >> >> back
    >> >> in Germany.
    >> >
    >> > Au contraire, at the university dept my better half works in here in
    >> > the
    >> > UK they have a major problem getting good lecturers in several areas
    >> > because they can get much more money working in the wider economy which
    >> > is very buoyant at the moment.

    >>
    >> Now do you begin to understand why MP3 was invented at the Frauhofer
    >> Institutes, not at Oxford or Cambridge; why the Germans were able to come
    >> up with a world-class Linux distro and the Brits were not; and why there
    >> are more Germanic names than Anglo-Saxon ones on the KDE developer team?
    >>
    >> There are lots of parts of the world where learning, and purveyors of
    >> learning, are highly valued. Including large swathes of Asia. And guess
    >> where some of the world's fastest growing economies are located?

    >
    > Hmmm, your rosy picture of Germany does not chime with the attitude of
    > the German research student I supervised a few years ago. He was
    > frustrated with the protracted nature of tertiary education in Germany
    > which was how come he came to the UK for his project (He's currently in
    > the US doing a PhD).
    >
    > Here in the UK there are serious suggestions that we, in essence,
    > reconstitute the polytechs, there are none left here, they have all
    > become 'universities'. The whole apprentice system get broken and now we
    > are importing Polish plumbers.
    >
    > So you may forgive me if I am more than a little wary of simplistic and
    > stereotypical analyses and solutions. I am also very aware of the law of
    > unintended consequnces and while paying particular teaching specialities
    > more has superficial merit it may cause many more problems than it
    > solves.
    >
    > As with the supply of doctors where the lag time from demand to supply
    > is very long, engineering solutions are not always easy. I'm certainly
    > glad I'm not a medic in today's world.
    >
    > Peter
    > --
    > Add my middle initial to email me. It has become attached to a country


    Doctors are way overworked and underpaid here in NZ. I think, with the
    spread of knowledge via the internet the respect of Doctors has somewhat
    diminished. It's gotta be tough to be on the leading edge of every disease
    out there.
     
    whome, Sep 28, 2006
    #19
  20. whome

    John B Guest

    "Lawrence D'Oliveiro" <_zealand> wrote in
    message news:effph0$r3$...
    > In message <451b158b$0$19735$>, John
    > B wrote:
    >
    >> I use the knowledge economy to make US$. It's coming along
    >> very
    >> nicely too, thanks.

    >
    > Are you putting anything into EUR, or are you keeping it all in
    > USD?


    The majority goes into my bank account here. Gets "wired"
    f/nightly.

    > Putting all your eggs in the USD basket may not be wise. All it
    > takes is for
    > the oil producers to finally decide to price in EUR instead of
    > USD, and
    > that will cause _major_ ructions down the track.


    We aren't talking millions here, not yet anyway. But I'll be
    buying gold and silver I guess when the cash-flow really builds
    up.

    What's with all the underscores?



    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
     
    John B, Sep 28, 2006
    #20
    1. Advertising

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