NZ 2nd level domains - why .co, .govt, .ac ?

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Aaron Lawrence, Jun 11, 2005.

  1. Hi all,

    For consistency it would seem to make more sense if we used

    abc.com.nz instead of abc.co.nz
    abc.gov.nz instead of abc.govt.nz
    abc.edu.nz instead of abc.ac.nz

    ie. use the same 2nd level domains as the top level domains. (Obviously,
    with aliases so that both work.)

    That would allow people who are not New Zealanders to guess URLs much
    more easily. For example, if I know there is a US company called United
    Widgets, I can easily guess that www.unitedwidgets.com is their website;
    but if it's a New Zealand company then I have to also know that for NZ
    sites it's www.unitedwidgets.co.nz.

    Australia does follow the TLDs. I guess we just followed the UK, good
    little colony that we are. The same argument applies to them, IMO :)

    Not that I'm saying everything the US does is right, but in this case it
    makes more sense to follow the majority.




    --
    aaronl at consultant dot com
    For every expert, there is an equal and
    opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
     
    Aaron Lawrence, Jun 11, 2005
    #1
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  2. Aaron Lawrence

    Bling-Bling Guest

    On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:42:10 +1200, Aaron Lawrence wrote:

    > For consistency it would seem to make more sense if we used
    >
    > abc.com.nz instead of abc.co.nz
    > abc.gov.nz instead of abc.govt.nz
    > abc.edu.nz instead of abc.ac.nz
    >
    > ie. use the same 2nd level domains as the top level domains. (Obviously,
    > with aliases so that both work.)


    The present system works satisfactorially for NZers. Presumably foreigners
    who are that clueless about the .NZ domain would be doing google searches
    to locate their desired .nz URLs.


    Bling Bling

    --
    IBM: "Linux is not just another operating system. It represents a
    collaboration of the best programmers in the industry coming together to
    create an operating system that works on any hardware platform."
     
    Bling-Bling, Jun 11, 2005
    #2
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  3. Aaron Lawrence

    -=rjh=- Guest

    Bling-Bling wrote:
    > On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 20:42:10 +1200, Aaron Lawrence wrote:
    >
    >
    >>For consistency it would seem to make more sense if we used
    >>
    >>abc.com.nz instead of abc.co.nz
    >>abc.gov.nz instead of abc.govt.nz
    >>abc.edu.nz instead of abc.ac.nz
    >>
    >>ie. use the same 2nd level domains as the top level domains. (Obviously,
    >>with aliases so that both work.)

    >
    >
    > The present system works satisfactorially for NZers. Presumably foreigners
    > who are that clueless about the .NZ domain would be doing google searches
    > to locate their desired .nz URLs.


    No it doesn't - I have to continually think about whether the the domain
    I'm going to enter requires .co. or .com., .gov. or .govt. for
    example, and this is a hassle. .uk and .nz uses .co.; .au uses .com

    Now, without looking it up - what does .tw use? You can't logically
    figure it out, you have to *know* - PCs are supposed to make things
    easier, and in this case they would, but the governing bodies have
    stuffed this up. Deliberately. Like a cat would.

    The current system is fine if you always use google (and there are
    people who don't know you can manually enter a url) but is just plain
    stupid for everyone else.
     
    -=rjh=-, Jun 11, 2005
    #3
  4. In article <>,
    Aaron Lawrence <> wrote:

    >For consistency it would seem to make more sense if we used
    >
    >abc.com.nz instead of abc.co.nz
    >abc.gov.nz instead of abc.govt.nz
    >abc.edu.nz instead of abc.ac.nz


    Our second-level domains are modelled on those used in the UK. Which
    were in turn deliberately chosen to be different from the GTLDs (Generic
    Top-Level Domains, .com, .edu, .org) for arcane reasons to do with
    poorly-configured DNS resolvers in Internet clients.

    From what I can recall of John Houlker's explanation:

    If we had .com.nz, and your machine was configured with a DNS "search
    path" (e.g. try sticking ".nz" on the end of a name, and if that doesn't
    match, then try it without the ".nz"), then trying to access "fred.com"
    when there was also a valid "fred.com.nz" would end up taking you to the
    latter instead of the former. Even if the latter didn't exist, there
    would still be extra network traffic incurred to the name servers for
    ".nz" every time you asked for a ".com" name. The usual way to defeat
    this search path is to put an explicit dot on the end of the name:
    "fred.com.", but not many people know about that.

    That sounds a bit vague or even weak. I suspect that the reasons that
    were considered valid a long time ago are no longer really much of an
    issue, which is why countries like Australia, Taiwan etc are happy to
    use second-level names that are the same as GTLDs.

    I remember once when I was helping Rex Croft run the .nz DNS registry, a
    company tried to register the name "nz.co.nz". Unfortunately we had to
    retract their registration after initially granting it, with many
    apologies. I left it to John to explain the technical reasons why such a
    name could not be allowed.
     
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Jun 11, 2005
    #4
  5. Aaron Lawrence

    Bling-Bling Guest

    On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:36:01 +1200, -=rjh=- wrote:

    >> The present system works satisfactorially for NZers. Presumably
    >> foreigners who are that clueless about the .NZ domain would be doing
    >> google searches to locate their desired .nz URLs.

    >
    > No it doesn't - I have to continually think about whether the the domain
    > I'm going to enter requires .co. or .com., .gov. or .govt. for
    > example, and this is a hassle. .uk and .nz uses .co.; .au uses .com
    >
    > Now, without looking it up - what does .tw use?


    Don't know - and don't care!

    Whatever structure that Taiwan uses for its own domain space is irrelevant
    to the structure that NZ uses for our domain space.

    Surely the fact that you have to "continually think" about the URLs that
    you use indicates that either you are not bookmarking your URLs, or you
    are not capable of remembering them.


    Bling Bling

    --
    IBM: "Linux is not just another operating system. It represents a
    collaboration of the best programmers in the industry coming together to
    create an operating system that works on any hardware platform."
     
    Bling-Bling, Jun 11, 2005
    #5
  6. Aaron Lawrence

    Mr Teatime Guest

    "Aaron Lawrence" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Hi all,
    >
    > For consistency it would seem to make more sense if we used
    >
    > abc.com.nz instead of abc.co.nz
    > abc.gov.nz instead of abc.govt.nz
    > abc.edu.nz instead of abc.ac.nz
    >
    > ie. use the same 2nd level domains as the top level domains. (Obviously,
    > with aliases so that both work.)
    >
    > That would allow people who are not New Zealanders to guess URLs much
    > more easily. For example, if I know there is a US company called United
    > Widgets, I can easily guess that www.unitedwidgets.com is their website;
    > but if it's a New Zealand company then I have to also know that for NZ
    > sites it's www.unitedwidgets.co.nz.
    >
    > Australia does follow the TLDs. I guess we just followed the UK, good
    > little colony that we are. The same argument applies to them, IMO :)
    >
    > Not that I'm saying everything the US does is right, but in this case it
    > makes more sense to follow the majority.
    >
    >


    It's the bloody yanks that have it wrong.
    They should all be .us
     
    Mr Teatime, Jun 11, 2005
    #6
  7. Aaron Lawrence

    Dorado Guest

    Bling-Bling wrote:
    > On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 21:36:01 +1200, -=rjh=- wrote:
    >
    >>> The present system works satisfactorially for NZers. Presumably
    >>> foreigners who are that clueless about the .NZ domain would be doing
    >>> google searches to locate their desired .nz URLs.

    >>
    >> No it doesn't - I have to continually think about whether the the
    >> domain I'm going to enter requires .co. or .com., .gov. or .govt.
    >> for
    >> example, and this is a hassle. .uk and .nz uses .co.; .au uses .com
    >>
    >> Now, without looking it up - what does .tw use?

    >
    > Don't know - and don't care!
    >
    > Whatever structure that Taiwan uses for its own domain space is
    > irrelevant to the structure that NZ uses for our domain space.
    >
    > Surely the fact that you have to "continually think" about the URLs
    > that you use indicates that either you are not bookmarking your URLs,
    > or you are not capable of remembering them.
    >
    >
    > Bling Bling


    I think you are missing the OP's point. Its not about remembering URLs that
    you know, its for people who are NOT New Zealanders who want to try and
    guess URLs of NZ companies. I have to agree with what Aaron and rjh says. It
    does become a hassle for poeple from outsite the country who want to guess
    our domain names..
     
    Dorado, Jun 11, 2005
    #7
  8. On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:06:16 +1200, someone purporting to be Mr Teatime
    didst scrawl:

    >
    > "Aaron Lawrence" <> wrote in message
    > news:...

    *SNIP*
    > It's the bloody yanks that have it wrong.
    > They should all be .us


    Indeed. They are alone in their use of gTLDs for any and every domain,
    despite the existence of a .us ccTLD. They may have invented the 'net,
    but they also make stuff awkward with this policy.

    --
    Matthew Poole
    "Don't use force. Get a bigger hammer."
     
    Matthew Poole, Jun 11, 2005
    #8
  9. On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:38:43 +1200, someone purporting to be Dorado didst
    scrawl:

    > Bling-Bling wrote:

    *SNIP*
    > I think you are missing the OP's point. Its not about remembering URLs that
    > you know, its for people who are NOT New Zealanders who want to try and
    > guess URLs of NZ companies. I have to agree with what Aaron and rjh says. It
    > does become a hassle for poeple from outsite the country who want to guess
    > our domain names..

    Just like it's entirely illogical for people trying to work out why most
    domain names associated with US entities don't end in .us?
    When the .nz 2LD structure was decided upon, the commercial Internet did
    not exist. At all. It entirely pre-dates SF Net. You're trying to
    impose the "logic" (that isn't) of today on a system that was designed and
    implemented long before what the 'net is today was conceived of.

    We're not the only country to use the codes that we do (though .govt may
    be unique). The UK also use .co and .ac, as do a number of other
    countries. The Cook Islands were using .co until it was explained to them
    why using .co with a ccTLD of .ck isn't such a great idea globally (to
    them, a cock is a rooster).

    I just showed a friend this thread, and her response was "Why would you
    have to guess them? You just have to fucking go on Google." This from a
    girl who's a two-finger typist!

    --
    Matthew Poole
    "Don't use force. Get a bigger hammer."
     
    Matthew Poole, Jun 11, 2005
    #9
  10. In article <>,
    Matthew Poole <> wrote:

    >On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:06:16 +1200, someone purporting to be Mr Teatime
    >didst scrawl:
    >
    >> "Aaron Lawrence" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...

    >*SNIP*
    >> It's the bloody yanks that have it wrong.
    >> They should all be .us

    >
    >Indeed. They are alone in their use of gTLDs for any and every domain,
    >despite the existence of a .us ccTLD. They may have invented the 'net,
    >but they also make stuff awkward with this policy.


    GTLDs are not supposed to be US-specific. At least, not all of them.
     
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Jun 11, 2005
    #10
  11. Aaron Lawrence

    -=rjh=- Guest

    Matthew Poole wrote:
    >
    > We're not the only country to use the codes that we do (though .govt may
    > be unique). The UK also use .co and .ac, as do a number of other
    > countries. The Cook Islands were using .co until it was explained to them
    > why using .co with a ccTLD of .ck isn't such a great idea globally (to
    > them, a cock is a rooster).
    >


    They still use co.ck - I know, I've just been there (what a nice
    place!), try http://www.budget.co.ck for example.

    Plenty of room for creative names, and could be a nice little earner for
    them. They need all the help they can get.
     
    -=rjh=-, Jun 11, 2005
    #11
  12. Aaron Lawrence

    steve Guest

    Aaron Lawrence wrote:

    > Australia does follow the TLDs. I guess we just followed the UK, good
    > little colony that we are. The same argument applies to them, IMO :)
    >
    > Not that I'm saying everything the US does is right, but in this case it
    > makes more sense to follow the majority.


    When it was defined, that is what was done.
     
    steve, Jun 11, 2005
    #12
  13. Aaron Lawrence

    Bling-Bling Guest

    On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:38:43 +1200, Dorado wrote:

    >>> Now, without looking it up - what does .tw use?

    >>
    >> Don't know - and don't care!
    >>
    >> Whatever structure that Taiwan uses for its own domain space is
    >> irrelevant to the structure that NZ uses for our domain space.
    >>
    >> Surely the fact that you have to "continually think" about the URLs
    >> that you use indicates that either you are not bookmarking your URLs,
    >> or you are not capable of remembering them.
    >>
    >>
    >> Bling Bling

    >
    > I think you are missing the OP's point.


    And I think you're missing mine.

    If someone is looking for a URL then all they have to do is to google for
    it - simple as that. No guesswork required.


    > Its not about remembering URLs that
    > you know, its for people who are NOT New Zealanders who want to try and
    > guess URLs of NZ companies. I have to agree with what Aaron and rjh says. It
    > does become a hassle for poeple from outsite the country who want to guess
    > our domain names.


    Let them have more fun by guessing wrongly for a few times first. But
    there are more efficient means of finding URLs.


    Bling Bling

    --
    IBM: "Linux is not just another operating system. It represents a
    collaboration of the best programmers in the industry coming together to
    create an operating system that works on any hardware platform."
     
    Bling-Bling, Jun 11, 2005
    #13
  14. Aaron Lawrence

    ~misfit~ Guest

    -=rjh=- wrote:
    >
    > Now, without looking it up - what does .tw use?


    abc.tw.com

    Confusing huh?
    --
    ~misfit~
     
    ~misfit~, Jun 12, 2005
    #14
  15. Aaron Lawrence

    Peter Guest

    Peter, Jun 12, 2005
    #15
  16. Aaron Lawrence

    -=rjh=- Guest

    Bling-Bling wrote:

    > Surely the fact that you have to "continually think" about the URLs that
    > you use indicates that either you are not bookmarking your URLs, or you
    > are not capable of remembering them.


    You've totally missed my point. It indicates that the system is not as
    user friendly as it could have been.

    Are you assuming that I'm always going to have access to bookmarks, and
    that all websites are accessible by bookmarks. At home, I use several
    different browsers on several different systems, so bookmarks are a
    hassle. If I want to visit the asus website, for example, why should I
    have to look it up? I do bookmark a lot of stuff, but bookmarking
    somewhere I've never or rarely visited or have no previous interest in
    is not going to happen.

    Some browsers (Firefox, for example) will, 90% of the time, go to the
    website you think you need if you just type the company name in. How
    well that works is up to google. Often assumptions are made about your
    geographical location which influences the result.

    And as for remembering URLs? Of course I'm capable of remembering them,
    but why should I have to remember which system any particular country
    uses; that is almost as absurd as remembering the IP addresses
    themselves. It should be possible to deduce the URL of any organisation
    from the type of organisation, the name of the organisation and the
    country it is in. Of course, the organisations themselves almost always
    stuff this up - although commercial organisations that are brand aware
    generally do this best, and government and other organisations do this
    worst - but the system is already stuffed before you get down to that level.

    I shouldn't have to think about the exceptions to the system, it should
    be logical. This is a system that *could* have been completely logical,
    but it has been stuffed up.

    As an end user, I don't care that "Whatever structure that Taiwan uses
    for its own domain space is irrelevant to the structure that NZ uses for
    our domain space." All I care about is that the system is easy to use.
    Sure, it works OK, but my point is, it could have been so much easier.
     
    -=rjh=-, Jun 12, 2005
    #16
  17. Aaron Lawrence

    ~misfit~ Guest

    Peter wrote:
    > ~misfit~ wrote:
    >> -=rjh=- wrote:
    >>> Now, without looking it up - what does .tw use?

    >>
    >> abc.tw.com

    >
    > how about ...
    > www.dtk.com.tw
    > www.manufacturers.com.tw
    > www.taipei.gov.tw
    > www.nchc.org.tw


    Ahhh, ok. I've been to a few mobo manufacturers sites that have the 'tw'
    before the 'com'. Either that or I've gone mad. ;-)
    --
    ~misfit~
     
    ~misfit~, Jun 12, 2005
    #17
  18. In article <>,
    "~misfit~" <> wrote:

    >Peter wrote:
    >> ~misfit~ wrote:
    >>> -=rjh=- wrote:
    >>>> Now, without looking it up - what does .tw use?
    >>>
    >>> abc.tw.com

    >>
    >> how about ...
    >> www.dtk.com.tw
    >> www.manufacturers.com.tw
    >> www.taipei.gov.tw
    >> www.nchc.org.tw

    >
    >Ahhh, ok. I've been to a few mobo manufacturers sites that have the 'tw'
    >before the 'com'. Either that or I've gone mad. ;-)


    You probably haven't gone (completely) mad. What you were most likely
    seeing was some global companies dividing up their own domain according
    to geographic region, e.g.

    tw.company.com
    nz.company.com

    (not "...tw.com", at least not likely.) I remember contacting Sun folks
    in NZ with addresses that ended with "newzealand.sun.com".
     
    Lawrence D¹Oliveiro, Jun 12, 2005
    #18
  19. Aaron Lawrence

    Bling-Bling Guest

    On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:03:18 +1200, -=rjh=- wrote:

    > why should I have to look it up?


    In order to locate it in the first place?


    > I do bookmark a lot of stuff, but bookmarking
    > somewhere I've never or rarely visited or have no previous interest in
    > is not going to happen.


    Well duh!!!!!

    And if you have no interest in, or only rarely visit a website, then how
    will it hurt you to google for it if/when you need to get to it?

    And it sounds like you could benefit from having your bookmarks located on
    a server so that you can use them from any of your desktop boxen.


    Bling Bling

    --
    IBM: "Linux is not just another operating system. It represents a
    collaboration of the best programmers in the industry coming together to
    create an operating system that works on any hardware platform."
     
    Bling-Bling, Jun 12, 2005
    #19
  20. Aaron Lawrence

    Bling-Bling Guest

    On Sun, 12 Jun 2005 16:03:18 +1200, -=rjh=- wrote:

    > I shouldn't have to think about the exceptions to the system, it should
    > be logical. This is a system that *could* have been completely logical,
    > but it has been stuffed up.


    And how would "geek", "maori", "cri", "iwi", etc fit into your
    "completely logical" system?

    I mean, shouldn't "geek"s be really "gen" and shouldn't "iwi"s really be
    "maori" and shouldn't "cri"s really be "govt"?

    And shouldn't "acc.co.nz" (real website) really be "acc.govt.nz" seeing as
    it's a government department?


    Bling Bling

    --
    IBM: "Linux is not just another operating system. It represents a
    collaboration of the best programmers in the industry coming together to
    create an operating system that works on any hardware platform."
     
    Bling-Bling, Jun 12, 2005
    #20
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