Novell Announces Agreement to Acquire Leading Enterprise Linux Technology Company SUSE LINUX

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Mutley, Nov 4, 2003.

  1. Mutley

    Mutley Guest

    Mutley, Nov 4, 2003
    #1
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  2. Mutley

    techie Guest

    techie, Nov 4, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Mutley

    AD. Guest

    On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 08:52:00 +1300, Mutley wrote:

    > Is this a good thing knowing what Novell's past performance..??
    >
    > http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/11/pr03069.html?sourceid=suse_nzone_press


    Evolution and Suse Enterprise - looks like a replacement for Groupwise to
    me.

    They could be banking on having an Exchange compatible Exchange
    alternative. I wonder if we'll see a port of Evolution to Windows soon?

    Cheers
    Anton
    AD., Nov 4, 2003
    #3
  4. Mutley

    harry Guest

    harry, Nov 4, 2003
    #4
  5. Mutley

    steve Guest

    Mutley allegedly said:

    > Is this a good thing knowing what Novell's past performance..??
    >
    >

    http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/11/pr03069.html?sourceid=suse_nzone_press

    They are still there.....and must have enough money around to acquire SuSE.

    With Red Hat climbing up the ladder into IBM-Enterprise land and leaving
    "Fedora" behind as the cutting edge 'farm team', this could be a good move
    for SuSE and for Novell.....and for for small to medium businesses
    especially looking for Linux solutions.

    --
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
    steve, Nov 4, 2003
    #5
  6. Mutley

    steve Guest

    AD. allegedly said:

    > On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 08:52:00 +1300, Mutley wrote:
    >
    >> Is this a good thing knowing what Novell's past performance..??
    >>
    >>

    http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/11/pr03069.html?sourceid=suse_nzone_press
    >
    > Evolution and Suse Enterprise - looks like a replacement for Groupwise to
    > me.
    >
    > They could be banking on having an Exchange compatible Exchange
    > alternative. I wonder if we'll see a port of Evolution to Windows soon?
    >
    > Cheers
    > Anton


    Not an easy call. Anything you port to Windows can be subverted by Microsoft
    - leaving you with a support headache and customers with sabotaged software
    that won't work from time to time after applying MS patches.

    Any former DR DOS or OS/2 user knows all too well how Microsoft uses it's
    updates to destroy compatibility with competing products.

    Better to say to customers: "you want mail? You want Internet? You want an
    office suite? Who cares what the OS is? Go Open Source."

    --
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
    steve, Nov 4, 2003
    #6
  7. Mutley

    Enkidu Guest

    Enkidu, Nov 4, 2003
    #7
  8. Mutley

    Enkidu Guest

    On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:24:37 +1300, steve <> wrote:

    >Mutley allegedly said:
    >
    >> Is this a good thing knowing what Novell's past performance..??
    >>
    >>

    >http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/11/pr03069.html?sourceid=suse_nzone_press
    >
    >They are still there.....and must have enough money around to acquire SuSE.
    >
    >With Red Hat climbing up the ladder into IBM-Enterprise land and leaving
    >"Fedora" behind as the cutting edge 'farm team', this could be a good move
    >for SuSE and for Novell.....and for for small to medium businesses
    >especially looking for Linux solutions.
    >

    ....except that mo one in their right mind would trust anything with
    the Novell badge on it. Imagine! They might try to port Groupwise to
    Linux!

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    --

    The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
    that the conspiracy is working.
    Enkidu, Nov 4, 2003
    #8
  9. Mutley

    steve Guest

    Enkidu allegedly said:

    > On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:24:37 +1300, steve <> wrote:
    >
    >>Mutley allegedly said:
    >>
    >>> Is this a good thing knowing what Novell's past performance..??
    >>>
    >>>

    >>http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/11/pr03069.html?sourceid=suse_nzone_press
    >>
    >>They are still there.....and must have enough money around to acquire
    >>SuSE.
    >>
    >>With Red Hat climbing up the ladder into IBM-Enterprise land and leaving
    >>"Fedora" behind as the cutting edge 'farm team', this could be a good move
    >>for SuSE and for Novell.....and for for small to medium businesses
    >>especially looking for Linux solutions.
    >>

    > ...except that mo one in their right mind would trust anything with
    > the Novell badge on it. Imagine! They might try to port Groupwise to
    > Linux!


    I've never used Groupwise.....though I'm pretty sure you have. :)

    Evolution would be a better bet.

    --
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
    steve, Nov 4, 2003
    #9
  10. Mutley

    Mainlander Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:24:37 +1300, steve <> wrote:
    >
    > >Mutley allegedly said:
    > >
    > >> Is this a good thing knowing what Novell's past performance..??
    > >>
    > >>

    > >http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/11/pr03069.html?sourceid=suse_nzone_press
    > >
    > >They are still there.....and must have enough money around to acquire SuSE.
    > >
    > >With Red Hat climbing up the ladder into IBM-Enterprise land and leaving
    > >"Fedora" behind as the cutting edge 'farm team', this could be a good move
    > >for SuSE and for Novell.....and for for small to medium businesses
    > >especially looking for Linux solutions.
    > >

    > ...except that mo one in their right mind would trust anything with
    > the Novell badge on it. Imagine! They might try to port Groupwise to
    > Linux!


    Lots of sysadmins are very happy with Netware. They don't listen to pro
    MS fud from the likes of you
    Mainlander, Nov 4, 2003
    #10
  11. Mutley

    Enkidu Guest

    On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:07:25 +1300, Mainlander <*@*.*> wrote:

    >In article <>,
    > says...
    >> On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 10:24:37 +1300, steve <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >Mutley allegedly said:
    >> >
    >> >> Is this a good thing knowing what Novell's past performance..??
    >> >>
    >> >>
    >> >http://www.novell.com/news/press/archive/2003/11/pr03069.html?sourceid=suse_nzone_press
    >> >
    >> >They are still there.....and must have enough money around to acquire SuSE.
    >> >
    >> >With Red Hat climbing up the ladder into IBM-Enterprise land and leaving
    >> >"Fedora" behind as the cutting edge 'farm team', this could be a good move
    >> >for SuSE and for Novell.....and for for small to medium businesses
    >> >especially looking for Linux solutions.
    >> >

    >> ...except that mo one in their right mind would trust anything with
    >> the Novell badge on it. Imagine! They might try to port Groupwise to
    >> Linux!

    >
    >Lots of sysadmins are very happy with Netware. They don't listen to pro
    >MS fud from the likes of you
    >

    Listen, pro-MS fud indeed! I've used Groupwise and Novell so I'm
    talking from experience! I'd say that Novell Netware probably is a
    sysadmins dream. It certainly isn't a user's dream and Groupwise has
    to be the worst groupware product ever!

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    --

    The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
    that the conspiracy is working.
    Enkidu, Nov 4, 2003
    #11
  12. Michael Newbery, Nov 5, 2003
    #12
  13. Mutley

    steve Guest

    Enkidu allegedly said:

    >>Lots of sysadmins are very happy with Netware. They don't listen to pro
    >>MS fud from the likes of you
    >>

    > Listen, pro-MS fud indeed! I've used Groupwise and Novell so I'm
    > talking from experience! I'd say that Novell Netware probably is a
    > sysadmins dream. It certainly isn't a user's dream and Groupwise has
    > to be the worst groupware product ever!
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Cliff


    Dunford walked right into that one.

    --
    defenestrate: The act of throwing Windows out the window and replacing it on
    your PC with some other operating system.
    steve, Nov 5, 2003
    #13
  14. Mutley

    Enkidu Guest

    On Wed, 05 Nov 2003 13:08:44 +1300, Michael Newbery
    <> wrote:

    >In article <>,
    > Enkidu <> wrote:
    >
    >> ...except that mo one in their right mind would trust anything with
    >> the Novell badge on it. Imagine! They might try to port Groupwise to
    >> Linux!

    >
    >Already done (well, in beta at the moment). Java based.
    >http://collaborationadvisor.com/doc/12724
    >
    >and
    >
    >http://www.novell.com/coolsolutions/gwmag/features/a_cross_platform_clien
    >t_gw.html
    >

    Tell me it's a joke!! I still wake up in a cold sweat when I dream
    about the day that it decided I wanted hundreds of copies of the same
    invalid entry in my address book! Or the day that it started a
    mailstorm and brought down the Australian Internet gateway! Or the day
    that it decided to turn all my emails into Greek! (or something. Maybe
    it was Klingon or Elvish, I dunno).

    A contact at a certain telco told me that they were changing to
    Groupwise. Sure enough, I started to receive scrambled emails from
    him. It also forwarded one of his emails to everyone in his address
    book.

    Normally I'd blame the user, but having seen what Groupwise can
    achieve totally on its own account, I'm inclinded to give him the
    benefit of the doubt.

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    --

    The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
    that the conspiracy is working.
    Enkidu, Nov 5, 2003
    #14
  15. Mutley

    Andy Simpson Guest

    And have you actually used or administered a GroupWise system since version
    5.x?

    Yes end users have always hated the GroupWise Client (I myself did to)

    But that all changed with 6.5 which has a new Client that is comparable to
    Outlook 2000. I upgraded my organisation to 6.5 recently, and the end users
    love the new client.

    As for the 'worst groupware product ever'

    GroupWise is in third place in terms of worldwide usage behind Exchange &
    Notes (respectively) and many Exchange 5.5 sites have migrated to GroupWise
    because of licencing costs associated with newer versions of Exchange.

    If GroupWise is so shit, then why is Microsoft still ripping features off
    GroupWise. When Novell released GroupWise 6.0 in 2001 including a new mode
    for remote users called 'caching mode' it was also positioned as a method to
    fit more users onto a single mail server.

    Microsoft released a whitepaper slagging it off as an 'undesirable feature'.
    Now with Exchange & Outlook 2003 Microsoft are going "gee look, we have this
    new 'caching mode' " which they are also stating as a means to fit more
    users onto a single Exchange Server.

    In Outlook 2003 they have also ripped off Search Folders (which every
    version of GroupWise since 5.0, circa 1996! has had) and operating remotely
    over SSL without the need for a VPN (OK, to be fair, GroupWise 6.5 only came
    out 8 months prior to Exchange 2003)

    Yes GroupWise trialed Exchange by a long way for User Mailbox Restrictions &
    Extend-SMTP (but NT4 trialed NetWare for Disk Quotas! and only just now can
    you undelete network files with Windows Server 2003)

    GroupWise has always led Exchange in terms of Web Access functionality as
    well. I'm sure that part of this strategy has been because Microsoft wanted
    to sell as many Outlook licences as possible. Exchange 2003 may finally have
    moved ahead, but unless you are using IE, then how well are all those active
    X controls going to run on a non-microsoft browser running on a
    non-microsoft platform.

    And with GroupWise, our organisation has NEVER suffered an outage due to an
    email based virus attack.

    Novell are now working on a version of the GroupWise backend for Linux, and
    a GroupWise connector for Evolution.

    --
    Andy


    "Enkidu" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 12:07:25 +1300, Mainlander <*@*.*> wrote:


    > Listen, pro-MS fud indeed! I've used Groupwise and Novell so I'm
    > talking from experience! I'd say that Novell Netware probably is a
    > sysadmins dream. It certainly isn't a user's dream and Groupwise has
    > to be the worst groupware product ever!
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Cliff
    > --
    Andy Simpson, Nov 5, 2003
    #15
  16. Mutley

    Enkidu Guest

    On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:10:25 +1300, "Andy Simpson" <>
    wrote:

    >And have you actually used or administered a GroupWise system since version
    >5.x?
    >
    >Yes end users have always hated the GroupWise Client (I myself did to)
    >

    No, I stopped at 4. But from what I hear it has not improved.
    >
    >But that all changed with 6.5 which has a new Client that is comparable to
    >Outlook 2000. I upgraded my organisation to 6.5 recently, and the end users
    >love the new client.
    >
    >As for the 'worst groupware product ever'
    >
    >GroupWise is in third place in terms of worldwide usage behind Exchange &
    >Notes (respectively) and many Exchange 5.5 sites have migrated to GroupWise
    >because of licencing costs associated with newer versions of Exchange.
    >

    But NOT because it is so much better. In fact it is not.
    >
    >If GroupWise is so shit, then why is Microsoft still ripping features off
    >GroupWise.
    >

    Why shouldn't they? One or two good ideas don't make a good product.
    >
    > When Novell released GroupWise 6.0 in 2001 including a new mode
    >for remote users called 'caching mode' it was also positioned as a method to
    >fit more users onto a single mail server.
    >

    Oh, you mean like synchronisation in Lotus Notes?
    >
    >Microsoft released a whitepaper slagging it off as an 'undesirable feature'.
    >Now with Exchange & Outlook 2003 Microsoft are going "gee look, we have this
    >new 'caching mode' " which they are also stating as a means to fit more
    >users onto a single Exchange Server.
    >
    >In Outlook 2003 they have also ripped off Search Folders (which every
    >version of GroupWise since 5.0, circa 1996! has had) and operating remotely
    >over SSL without the need for a VPN (OK, to be fair, GroupWise 6.5 only came
    >out 8 months prior to Exchange 2003)
    >
    >Yes GroupWise trialed Exchange by a long way for User Mailbox Restrictions &
    >Extend-SMTP (but NT4 trialed NetWare for Disk Quotas! and only just now can
    >you undelete network files with Windows Server 2003)
    >
    >GroupWise has always led Exchange in terms of Web Access functionality as
    >well. I'm sure that part of this strategy has been because Microsoft wanted
    >to sell as many Outlook licences as possible. Exchange 2003 may finally have
    >moved ahead, but unless you are using IE, then how well are all those active
    >X controls going to run on a non-microsoft browser running on a
    >non-microsoft platform.
    >

    OWA works quite happily on Opera and on Mozilla.
    >
    >And with GroupWise, our organisation has NEVER suffered an outage due to an
    >email based virus attack.
    >

    Maybe, but Groupwise is perfectly capable of screwing itself up. It
    was (V4) quite capable of filling an address book with hundreds of
    corrupt entries. It was quite capable of sending emails to the wrong
    people. It is quite capable of showing you someone else's email. It
    was quite capable of causing mailstorms. It is quite capable of losing
    emails, even when stored safely, it was quite capable of letting you
    delete an email, and then have it reappear when you restarted and it
    was definitely capable of causing a machine to crash. All these things
    happened to me. Frequently. And others that I've mercifully forgotten.
    It was a daily trauma.

    When we got to use Lotus Notes it was a great relief, though Notes
    would not be my choice.
    >
    >Novell are now working on a version of the GroupWise backend for Linux, and
    >a GroupWise connector for Evolution.
    >

    Good luck to them. They will need it.

    {Please reply, but I'll stop here. We'll soon start to revisit old
    ground. Let's agree to disagree?}

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    --

    The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
    that the conspiracy is working.
    Enkidu, Nov 5, 2003
    #16
  17. Mutley

    Enkidu Guest

    On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:10:25 +1300, "Andy Simpson" <>
    wrote:
    >
    >And with GroupWise, our organisation has NEVER suffered an outage due to an
    >email based virus attack.
    >

    Just coincidentally read (in a MS newsgroup admittedly) of an
    organisation that had their NDS trashed by a virus. Poster was a NDS
    fan.

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    --

    The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
    that the conspiracy is working.
    Enkidu, Nov 5, 2003
    #17
  18. Mutley

    Andy Simpson Guest


    > No, I stopped at 4. But from what I hear it has not improved.


    That is just like saying that Exchange Server 2003 is shit just because
    Microsoft Mail Server was (which it was back then), hello we are talking we
    are talking almost 7 years difference in development.

    Version 4 as you know was the first 'Novell' version of GroupWise after they
    acquired it from Word Perfect Corp (OK, I won't go there : )

    > But NOT because it is so much better. In fact it is not.


    Given a personal choice between Outlook 2003 & GroupWise 6.5, of course I
    would agree that the Outlook Client is a lot more feature rich & that
    Exchange Server is a significantly better platform for development &
    third-party development.

    But isn't the primary purpose of a mail system to do messaging? Do you think
    all the people @ Ford Motor Company or @ Compaq were wondering 'Gee Exchange
    is a great development platform' when most of their Exchange Infrastructure
    was down for over 24 hours as a result of Love Bug and the rest of these
    email viruses. (Ford did take most of their infrastructure down voluntarily
    to avoid further infection, but an outage is still an outage).

    Sure you block attachments & disable VBScripting & Outlook to stop all this,
    but then Exchange & Outlook aren't quite as 'feature rich' then are they if
    you have to disable these things to stop virus infection.

    > >

    > Why shouldn't they? One or two good ideas don't make a good product.


    Agreed. Point Taken.

    > Oh, you mean like synchronisation in Lotus Notes?


    No I do not mean sychronisation like Lotus Notes, Caching mode operates
    completely transparently to the user in the background. Before that
    GroupWise had Remote Mode which operated in a 'semi-automatic' fashion
    making it more similar to Notes' Synchronisation.

    > OWA works quite happily on Opera and on Mozilla.


    Premium mode of OWA (as opposed to Basic Mode) under Exchange Server 2003
    does not work at all under Mozila 1.5 OR Opera 7.21 -a fact I tested this
    morning.

    Yes I am sure they will probably work fine with OWA 2000 or 5.5

    > >

    > Maybe, but Groupwise is perfectly capable of screwing itself up. It
    > was (V4) quite capable of filling an address book with hundreds of
    > corrupt entries. It was quite capable of sending emails to the wrong
    > people. It is quite capable of showing you someone else's email. It
    > was quite capable of causing mailstorms. It is quite capable of losing
    > emails, even when stored safely, it was quite capable of letting you
    > delete an email, and then have it reappear when you restarted and it
    > was definitely capable of causing a machine to crash. All these things
    > happened to me. Frequently. And others that I've mercifully forgotten.
    > It was a daily trauma.


    V4 was a long time ago, although I do agree that generally if you have a bad
    experience with a product, you generally don't want to go near it ever again
    no matter how much other people say that later versions have improved. A bit
    like me with ARCserve really -although in ARCserves case it's in reverse : )
    a good product getting shittier & shittier.

    > When we got to use Lotus Notes it was a great relief, though Notes
    > would not be my choice.
    > >
    > >Novell are now working on a version of the GroupWise backend for Linux,

    and
    > >a GroupWise connector for Evolution.
    > >

    > Good luck to them. They will need it.


    Yes they will, they are betting the whole survival of their company on
    Linux, past history may not support my argument, but I think they will
    survive.

    After all, isn't that what Microsoft wants everyone to believe? You better
    go with us because we are going to kill all the competition and then you
    will be stuck with costly migrations to our products anyway?

    Microsoft products generally are good. I don't disagree that a well setup &
    administered Exchange System will run with five nines uptime, but then again
    so will a GroupWise system or a Notes System.

    Anyway it comes down to more then just technology, it comes down to choice.
    If no one had a problem paying Microsoft's licence fees, then I think
    everyone would be using their products, but Microsoft don't believe people
    should have a choice. They talk about ABM's ('That guy is an Anything But
    Microsoft'), but they are all NBM's (Nothing But Microsoft).

    For the record my preferred Desktop OS platform is Windows 2000 / XP, my
    preferred browser is Internet Explorer and my preferred Office Suite is 2000
    / XP.

    This is where Microsoft get 80% of their revenues from, but that isn't
    enough. Their business strategy is simple.

    Everything.

    > {Please reply, but I'll stop here. We'll soon start to revisit old
    > ground. Let's agree to disagree?}
    Andy Simpson, Nov 6, 2003
    #18
  19. Mutley

    Andy Simpson Guest

    "Enkidu" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 5 Nov 2003 17:10:25 +1300, "Andy Simpson" <>
    > wrote:
    > >
    > >And with GroupWise, our organisation has NEVER suffered an outage due to

    an
    > >email based virus attack.
    > >

    > Just coincidentally read (in a MS newsgroup admittedly) of an
    > organisation that had their NDS trashed by a virus. Poster was a NDS
    > fan.
    >
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Cliff
    > --
    >
    > The complete lack of evidence is the surest sign
    > that the conspiracy is working.
    Andy Simpson, Nov 6, 2003
    #19
  20. Mutley

    Andy Simpson Guest


    > Just coincidentally read (in a MS newsgroup admittedly) of an
    > organisation that had their NDS trashed by a virus. Poster was a NDS
    > fan.


    It was probably NDS which was based on the RECMAN database, a simple but
    primitive Fixed Length Record Manager. The last version of NetWare to use
    the RECMAN database (NDS versions 7 and earlier) was 5.0

    NetWare versions 5.1 & later have used eDirectory which uses a highly
    scalable indexed database with full roll-forward & roll-back transaction
    logging.

    Novell have scaled eDirectory to over a billion objects, each with thousands
    of attributes.
    Andy Simpson, Nov 6, 2003
    #20
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