Novel Fractal Matrix System CCD and file format.

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by stein, Jan 30, 2004.

  1. stein

    stein Guest

    Text translated from the current "Ny Kamera":

    " The professor of digital picture processing, Jotne Hulder, of Trondheim
    Norway, has received a world patent for the new fractal matrix system
    digital camera and scanning technique. The aim is to get a scientific
    distribution of dots in the matrix, improved even in comparison with the
    random structure of film type negatives.
    The new fractal structure CCD is developed for the ability to output a
    varying information mass (file size), without any mosaic or moire pattern at
    any chosen level of resolution. A new fractal matrix file type named FMX is
    a part of the patent. The fractal matrix file also facilitates a series of
    new compression possibilities, both lossless and also the most powerful
    compression hereto, that reduces file size radically while only losing
    slightly in resolution, without the apparent artifacts seen in other popular
    compressed formats. Licences for the Fractal Matrix System are offered to
    camera manufacturers and photo editing software companies and will also
    include the algorithms needed for the lossless compression and resolution
    scaling."

    What do you think, will we see this soon enough?

    Stein
    stein, Jan 30, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. stein

    DJ Guest

    On 30 Jan 2004 23:29:14 +0100, "stein" <> wrote:

    >Text translated from the current "Ny Kamera":
    >
    >" The professor of digital picture processing, Jotne Hulder, of Trondheim
    >Norway, has received a world patent for the new fractal matrix system
    >digital camera and scanning technique. The aim is to get a scientific
    >distribution of dots in the matrix, improved even in comparison with the
    >random structure of film type negatives.
    >The new fractal structure CCD is developed for the ability to output a
    >varying information mass (file size), without any mosaic or moire pattern at
    >any chosen level of resolution. A new fractal matrix file type named FMX is
    >a part of the patent. The fractal matrix file also facilitates a series of
    >new compression possibilities, both lossless and also the most powerful
    >compression hereto, that reduces file size radically while only losing
    >slightly in resolution, without the apparent artifacts seen in other popular
    >compressed formats. Licences for the Fractal Matrix System are offered to
    >camera manufacturers and photo editing software companies and will also
    >include the algorithms needed for the lossless compression and resolution
    >scaling."
    >
    >What do you think, will we see this soon enough?
    >
    >Stein
    >


    It's hard to comment without any hard details. The OP sounds more like
    advertising hype that technical facts. If Hulder has worked out a way of
    structuring a sensor so the individual photosites are pseudo-randomly
    distributed rather than on a regular grid, it would be *very* interesting. It
    would eliminate aliasing artifacts that necessitate an anti-aliasing filter in
    all existing regular sensor arrays (including Foveon who simply chose to ignore
    facts). Thinking about it, it might be possible with geometrically shaped but
    not-all-the-same shaped sites in an interlocking pattern like a puzzle. The
    difficulty as I see it is that in emulating grain, where sizes are randomly
    distributed, each site would have a different sensitivity and hence need
    different gain and would produce different noise.

    The other problem I see with an irregular photo site size/distribution is that
    some of the sensors will be larger than the minimum possible sensor, so average
    resolution will be worse than achievable resolution for a given set of design
    rules. Can it then be made so that the sacrifice in resolution is *less* than
    the sacrifice in an AA filter?

    It would be interesting to see the details of Hulder's concept.

    dj
    DJ, Jan 30, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. "stein" <> wrote in news::

    > " The professor of digital picture processing, Jotne Hulder, of
    > Trondheim Norway, has received a world patent for the new fractal matrix
    > system digital camera and scanning technique. The aim is to get a
    > scientific distribution of dots in the matrix, improved even in
    > comparison with the random structure of film type negatives.
    > The new fractal structure CCD is developed for the ability to output a
    > varying information mass (file size), without any mosaic or moire
    > pattern at any chosen level of resolution. A new fractal matrix file
    > type named FMX is a part of the patent. The fractal matrix file also
    > facilitates a series of new compression possibilities, both lossless and
    > also the most powerful compression hereto, that reduces file size
    > radically while only losing slightly in resolution, without the apparent
    > artifacts seen in other popular compressed formats. Licences for the
    > Fractal Matrix System are offered to camera manufacturers and photo
    > editing software companies and will also include the algorithms needed
    > for the lossless compression and resolution scaling."
    >
    > What do you think, will we see this soon enough?


    I don't know really. A non uniform sensor would (in some respects)
    be very interesting. That it is called fractal sounds a little fishy
    though. A non uniform sensor would (just as the text says) remove
    mosaic and moire patterns. The problem is that it does this at the
    cost of noise and resolution. Maybe this "fractal" solution is a kind
    of good compromise.


    /Roland
    Roland Karlsson, Jan 30, 2004
    #3
  4. stein

    Paolo Pizzi Guest

    stein wrote:

    > What do you think, will we see this soon enough?


    That depends on how "substantial" is the claim...
    Paolo Pizzi, Jan 30, 2004
    #4
  5. "Paolo Pizzi" <> wrote in news:IdCSb.19783
    $:

    >> What do you think, will we see this soon enough?

    >
    > That depends on how "substantial" is the claim...
    >


    Yepp ..but it also depends on how interested current
    camera makers is in using a new and "improved" format.
    There are lots of implications on how a non square
    grid format will affect things. One question - how would
    your photo editor handle this new format? Not reading - that
    is easy. But I mean manipulating. Whats the use of a fantastic
    non square grid format if you have to upscale it largely
    to preserve most of the advantage?


    /Roland
    Roland Karlsson, Jan 31, 2004
    #5
  6. On 30 Jan 2004 23:29:14 +0100, "stein" <> wrote:

    > " The professor of digital picture processing, Jotne Hulder, of
    > Trondheim Norway


    [SNIP]

    >What do you think, will we see this soon enough?


    Since "Jotne" and "Hulder" are both types of troll, no.

    FOAD

    Andy
    Andy Blanchard, Jan 31, 2004
    #6
  7. stein

    Don Stauffer Guest

    Great if he can really do it. Normal CCD structure must be a regular
    grid as the row and column address lines address the array in a regular
    fashion. In fact, if he has a way to selectively address pixels, why
    even use the CCD concept? Sounds like it would be an addressable
    photodiode array rather than a charge coupled (bucket brigade) device.

    That is, unless the matrix is basically regular and each pixel is only
    randomly shifted slightly from the average position of a pixel. But
    then if that is the case, it seems like it would not overcome some of
    the problems, such as Moire patterns, that a regular sampling grid
    creates.

    stein wrote:
    >
    > Text translated from the current "Ny Kamera":
    >
    > " The professor of digital picture processing, Jotne Hulder, of Trondheim
    > Norway, has received a world patent for the new fractal matrix system
    > digital camera and scanning technique. The aim is to get a scientific
    > distribution of dots in the matrix, improved even in comparison with the
    > random structure of film type negatives.
    > The new fractal structure CCD is developed for the ability to output a
    > varying information mass (file size), without any mosaic or moire pattern at
    > any chosen level of resolution. A new fractal matrix file type named FMX is
    > a part of the patent. The fractal matrix file also facilitates a series of
    > new compression possibilities, both lossless and also the most powerful
    > compression hereto, that reduces file size radically while only losing
    > slightly in resolution, without the apparent artifacts seen in other popular
    > compressed formats. Licences for the Fractal Matrix System are offered to
    > camera manufacturers and photo editing software companies and will also
    > include the algorithms needed for the lossless compression and resolution
    > scaling."
    >
    > What do you think, will we see this soon enough?
    >
    > Stein


    --
    Don Stauffer in Minnesota

    webpage- http://www.usfamily.net/web/stauffer
    Don Stauffer, Jan 31, 2004
    #7
  8. stein

    Mike Engles Guest

    DJ wrote:
    >
    > On 30 Jan 2004 23:29:14 +0100, "stein" <> wrote:
    >
    > >Text translated from the current "Ny Kamera":
    > >
    > >" The professor of digital picture processing, Jotne Hulder, of Trondheim
    > >Norway, has received a world patent for the new fractal matrix system
    > >digital camera and scanning technique. The aim is to get a scientific
    > >distribution of dots in the matrix, improved even in comparison with the
    > >random structure of film type negatives.
    > >The new fractal structure CCD is developed for the ability to output a
    > >varying information mass (file size), without any mosaic or moire pattern at
    > >any chosen level of resolution. A new fractal matrix file type named FMX is
    > >a part of the patent. The fractal matrix file also facilitates a series of
    > >new compression possibilities, both lossless and also the most powerful
    > >compression hereto, that reduces file size radically while only losing
    > >slightly in resolution, without the apparent artifacts seen in other popular
    > >compressed formats. Licences for the Fractal Matrix System are offered to
    > >camera manufacturers and photo editing software companies and will also
    > >include the algorithms needed for the lossless compression and resolution
    > >scaling."
    > >
    > >What do you think, will we see this soon enough?
    > >
    > >Stein
    > >

    >
    > It's hard to comment without any hard details. The OP sounds more like
    > advertising hype that technical facts. If Hulder has worked out a way of
    > structuring a sensor so the individual photosites are pseudo-randomly
    > distributed rather than on a regular grid, it would be *very* interesting. It
    > would eliminate aliasing artifacts that necessitate an anti-aliasing filter in
    > all existing regular sensor arrays (including Foveon who simply chose to ignore
    > facts). Thinking about it, it might be possible with geometrically shaped but
    > not-all-the-same shaped sites in an interlocking pattern like a puzzle. The
    > difficulty as I see it is that in emulating grain, where sizes are randomly
    > distributed, each site would have a different sensitivity and hence need
    > different gain and would produce different noise.
    >
    > The other problem I see with an irregular photo site size/distribution is that
    > some of the sensors will be larger than the minimum possible sensor, so average
    > resolution will be worse than achievable resolution for a given set of design
    > rules. Can it then be made so that the sacrifice in resolution is *less* than
    > the sacrifice in an AA filter?
    >
    > It would be interesting to see the details of Hulder's concept.
    >
    > dj



    Hello

    All you would need is a regular grid, but to turn off sensors, so that
    there is no effective grid. It would a need a denser sensor distribution
    than we have now and smaller sensors.

    Mike Engles
    Mike Engles, Jan 31, 2004
    #8
  9. stein

    Crownfield Guest

    Mike Engles wrote:
    >
    > DJ wrote:
    > >
    > > On 30 Jan 2004 23:29:14 +0100, "stein" <> wrote:
    > >
    > > >Text translated from the current "Ny Kamera":
    > > >
    > > >" The professor of digital picture processing, Jotne Hulder, of Trondheim
    > > >Norway, has received a world patent for the new fractal matrix system
    > > >digital camera and scanning technique. The aim is to get a scientific
    > > >distribution of dots in the matrix, improved even in comparison with the
    > > >random structure of film type negatives.
    > > >The new fractal structure CCD is developed for the ability to output a
    > > >varying information mass (file size), without any mosaic or moire pattern at
    > > >any chosen level of resolution. A new fractal matrix file type named FMX is
    > > >a part of the patent. The fractal matrix file also facilitates a series of
    > > >new compression possibilities, both lossless and also the most powerful
    > > >compression hereto, that reduces file size radically while only losing
    > > >slightly in resolution, without the apparent artifacts seen in other popular
    > > >compressed formats. Licences for the Fractal Matrix System are offered to
    > > >camera manufacturers and photo editing software companies and will also
    > > >include the algorithms needed for the lossless compression and resolution
    > > >scaling."
    > > >
    > > >What do you think, will we see this soon enough?
    > > >
    > > >Stein
    > > >

    > >
    > > It's hard to comment without any hard details. The OP sounds more like
    > > advertising hype that technical facts. If Hulder has worked out a way of
    > > structuring a sensor so the individual photosites are pseudo-randomly
    > > distributed rather than on a regular grid, it would be *very* interesting. It
    > > would eliminate aliasing artifacts that necessitate an anti-aliasing filter in
    > > all existing regular sensor arrays (including Foveon who simply chose to ignore
    > > facts). Thinking about it, it might be possible with geometrically shaped but
    > > not-all-the-same shaped sites in an interlocking pattern like a puzzle. The
    > > difficulty as I see it is that in emulating grain, where sizes are randomly
    > > distributed, each site would have a different sensitivity and hence need
    > > different gain and would produce different noise.
    > >
    > > The other problem I see with an irregular photo site size/distribution is that
    > > some of the sensors will be larger than the minimum possible sensor, so average
    > > resolution will be worse than achievable resolution for a given set of design
    > > rules. Can it then be made so that the sacrifice in resolution is *less* than
    > > the sacrifice in an AA filter?
    > >
    > > It would be interesting to see the details of Hulder's concept.
    > >
    > > dj

    >
    > Hello
    >
    > All you would need is a regular grid, but to turn off sensors, so that
    > there is no effective grid. It would a need a denser sensor distribution
    > than we have now and smaller sensors.


    which would be better-
    a 6 mp camera in a grid,
    or an 18 mp camera with many of the pixels turned off?

    I have trouble trying to visualize the format of the output file.

    >
    > Mike Engles
    Crownfield, Jan 31, 2004
    #9
  10. stein

    Mike Engles Guest

    Crownfield wrote:
    >
    > Mike Engles wrote:
    > >
    > > DJ wrote:
    > > >
    > > > On 30 Jan 2004 23:29:14 +0100, "stein" <> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > >Text translated from the current "Ny Kamera":
    > > > >
    > > > >" The professor of digital picture processing, Jotne Hulder, of Trondheim
    > > > >Norway, has received a world patent for the new fractal matrix system
    > > > >digital camera and scanning technique. The aim is to get a scientific
    > > > >distribution of dots in the matrix, improved even in comparison with the
    > > > >random structure of film type negatives.
    > > > >The new fractal structure CCD is developed for the ability to output a
    > > > >varying information mass (file size), without any mosaic or moire pattern at
    > > > >any chosen level of resolution. A new fractal matrix file type named FMX is
    > > > >a part of the patent. The fractal matrix file also facilitates a series of
    > > > >new compression possibilities, both lossless and also the most powerful
    > > > >compression hereto, that reduces file size radically while only losing
    > > > >slightly in resolution, without the apparent artifacts seen in other popular
    > > > >compressed formats. Licences for the Fractal Matrix System are offered to
    > > > >camera manufacturers and photo editing software companies and will also
    > > > >include the algorithms needed for the lossless compression and resolution
    > > > >scaling."
    > > > >
    > > > >What do you think, will we see this soon enough?
    > > > >
    > > > >Stein
    > > > >
    > > >
    > > > It's hard to comment without any hard details. The OP sounds more like
    > > > advertising hype that technical facts. If Hulder has worked out a way of
    > > > structuring a sensor so the individual photosites are pseudo-randomly
    > > > distributed rather than on a regular grid, it would be *very* interesting. It
    > > > would eliminate aliasing artifacts that necessitate an anti-aliasing filter in
    > > > all existing regular sensor arrays (including Foveon who simply chose to ignore
    > > > facts). Thinking about it, it might be possible with geometrically shaped but
    > > > not-all-the-same shaped sites in an interlocking pattern like a puzzle. The
    > > > difficulty as I see it is that in emulating grain, where sizes are randomly
    > > > distributed, each site would have a different sensitivity and hence need
    > > > different gain and would produce different noise.
    > > >
    > > > The other problem I see with an irregular photo site size/distribution is that
    > > > some of the sensors will be larger than the minimum possible sensor, so average
    > > > resolution will be worse than achievable resolution for a given set of design
    > > > rules. Can it then be made so that the sacrifice in resolution is *less* than
    > > > the sacrifice in an AA filter?
    > > >
    > > > It would be interesting to see the details of Hulder's concept.
    > > >
    > > > dj

    > >
    > > Hello
    > >
    > > All you would need is a regular grid, but to turn off sensors, so that
    > > there is no effective grid. It would a need a denser sensor distribution
    > > than we have now and smaller sensors.

    >
    > which would be better-
    > a 6 mp camera in a grid,
    > or an 18 mp camera with many of the pixels turned off?
    >
    > I have trouble trying to visualize the format of the output file.
    >
    > >
    > > Mike Engles



    Hello

    The one with high number of pixels and some randomly turned off would
    reduce patterns. The other thing would be to have control of each pixel
    and be able to choose which you turn off. Ideally this would be of the
    Foveon type, but with the order of 50 million pixels.
    Give it 5 years.

    The output would be as if you had dead pixels. There would have to be
    the same level of density of pixels as film grain or even smaller.

    Mike Engles
    Mike Engles, Feb 1, 2004
    #10
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