Non-copyrighted .wav files?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Dr. Bob, Aug 28, 2003.

  1. Dr. Bob

    Dr. Bob Guest

    I am working up "slide shows" with Fotoangelo, and would like to include
    sound files in .wav format. What I want is "classical" music, on which any
    copyrights, if they ever existed, have long expired. Can someone direct me
    to a Web site? Thanks! reply via email.
     
    Dr. Bob, Aug 28, 2003
    #1
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  2. "Dr. Bob" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I am working up "slide shows" with Fotoangelo, and would like to include
    > sound files in .wav format.


    ..mp3 files can be purchased for minimal amounts of money online. .mid
    synthesised facsimiles of classical music are readily available and can
    sometimes sound quite reasonable (depending on how lofty your expectations
    are). I don't think you'll find "uncopyrighted" music, as the copyright is
    on the recording of the music rather than the sheet music itself. However,
    if your slide shows are limited in number, duration and repetition i'm sure
    you could legally play a CD or track ripped from a CD into .wav with the
    show (bear in mind 44khz .wavs are about 10mb a minute and .mp3s are about
    1mb a minute). For CD-ripping, check out a download site like www.tucows.com
    or www.zdnet.com for example. Audiograbber is a good utility.

    --
    Martin
    Divide By Cucumber Error. Please Reinstall Universe And Reboot
     
    Martin Francis, Aug 29, 2003
    #2
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  3. Dr. Bob

    PTRAVEL Guest

    "Dr. Bob" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I am working up "slide shows" with Fotoangelo, and would like to include
    > sound files in .wav format. What I want is "classical" music, on which any
    > copyrights, if they ever existed, have long expired. Can someone direct me
    > to a Web site? Thanks! reply via email.


    There's no such thing. Even if the copyright on the underlying work has
    expired, the recording itself is still protected by copyright and, almost
    certainly, is unexpired.

    >
    >
     
    PTRAVEL, Aug 29, 2003
    #3
  4. Dr. Bob

    Lisa Horton Guest

    PTRAVEL wrote:
    >
    > "Dr. Bob" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > I am working up "slide shows" with Fotoangelo, and would like to include
    > > sound files in .wav format. What I want is "classical" music, on which any
    > > copyrights, if they ever existed, have long expired. Can someone direct me
    > > to a Web site? Thanks! reply via email.

    >
    > There's no such thing. Even if the copyright on the underlying work has
    > expired, the recording itself is still protected by copyright and, almost
    > certainly, is unexpired.
    >


    Might MIDI files be okay to use? Might they be more akin to a score
    than a performance?

    Lisa
     
    Lisa Horton, Aug 29, 2003
    #4
  5. Dr. Bob

    PTRAVEL Guest

    "charlie" <> wrote in message news:3f4d5aee_4@newsfeed...
    > There is lots of classical wave music available on most commercial chess
    > programs which use the music as background for the game. Check those out

    if
    > you know anyone with a chess program.
    > Charlie


    Using that music would infringe the copyright of the _recording_. It's no
    different than if the OP ripped wav files from a commercial CD.


    >
    > "Dr. Bob" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > I am working up "slide shows" with Fotoangelo, and would like to include
    > > sound files in .wav format. What I want is "classical" music, on which

    any
    > > copyrights, if they ever existed, have long expired. Can someone direct

    me
    > > to a Web site? Thanks! reply via email.
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
     
    PTRAVEL, Aug 29, 2003
    #5
  6. > > I am working up "slide shows" with Fotoangelo, and would like to include
    > > sound files in .wav format. What I want is "classical" music, on which any
    > > copyrights, if they ever existed, have long expired. Can someone direct me
    > > to a Web site? Thanks! reply via email.

    >
    > There's no such thing. Even if the copyright on the underlying work has
    > expired, the recording itself is still protected by copyright and, almost
    > certainly, is unexpired.


    Very true, but the whole idea of worrying about copyright for a slide show is
    ridiculous. True, the rights owners of the song happy birthday did sue the
    girl scouts for singing the song at a campfire, but that is a really really rare
    thing to happen, and so many people will get outraged by the suit that it will
    eventually get dropped.

    Just use whatever music you want to. (This isn't going to be on network
    television, or sold as a product in stores, is it?) The chance of someone at
    your little slideshow reporting you to the orchestra that recorded the music,
    and them taking the time to find and sue you for using them in a slide show for
    your club or friends or whatever, is much slimmer than you winning the lottery
    or getting hit by lightning.

    WORST CASE, you can expect a letter from their attorney telling you to "cease
    and desist" from using it. So then you stop, and that is as far as it gets.
     
    Karen Weissman, Aug 29, 2003
    #6
  7. Dr. Bob

    Mxsmanic Guest

    Dr. Bob writes:

    > What I want is "classical" music, on which any
    > copyrights, if they ever existed, have long expired.


    The only way to have this is if you perform and record the music
    yourself. Otherwise the _performance_ is copyrighted, even if the music
    itself is not, so you still need permission.

    Note that, in some jurisdictions, merely capturing sound is not creation
    of a copyrighted work, so recording, say, the sound of traffic does not
    produce a recording protected by copyright. That won't help you here,
    though.

    --
    Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
     
    Mxsmanic, Aug 29, 2003
    #7
  8. Dr. Bob

    PTRAVEL Guest

    "Mxsmanic" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Dr. Bob writes:
    >
    > > What I want is "classical" music, on which any
    > > copyrights, if they ever existed, have long expired.

    >
    > The only way to have this is if you perform and record the music
    > yourself. Otherwise the _performance_ is copyrighted, even if the music
    > itself is not, so you still need permission.
    >
    > Note that, in some jurisdictions, merely capturing sound is not creation
    > of a copyrighted work, so recording, say, the sound of traffic does not
    > produce a recording protected by copyright.


    It does in the United States.

    > That won't help you here,
    > though.


    >
    > --
    > Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
     
    PTRAVEL, Aug 29, 2003
    #8
  9. Dr. Bob

    Don Stauffer Guest

    Unfortunately, the performance of a musical piece is also copyright by
    the performing artists. The only way you can get a truly copyright-free
    piece of classical music is to have your own friends and acquaintances
    perform it from public domain sheet music. Or, type it into a
    music-generating piece of software, such as a midi-editor, using
    multiple tracks and instruments. The performers are doing the same
    thing as a photographer photographing nature.

    "Dr. Bob" wrote:
    >
    > I am working up "slide shows" with Fotoangelo, and would like to include
    > sound files in .wav format. What I want is "classical" music, on which any
    > copyrights, if they ever existed, have long expired. Can someone direct me
    > to a Web site? Thanks! reply via email.


    --
    Don Stauffer in Minnesota

    webpage- http://www.usfamily.net/web/stauffer
     
    Don Stauffer, Aug 29, 2003
    #9
  10. Dr. Bob

    J. Byron Guest

    "PTRAVEL" <> wrote in message news:<binm1i$b55e6$-berlin.de>...
    > "Mxsmanic" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Dr. Bob writes:
    > >
    > > > What I want is "classical" music, on which any
    > > > copyrights, if they ever existed, have long expired.

    > >
    > > The only way to have this is if you perform and record the music
    > > yourself. Otherwise the _performance_ is copyrighted, even if the music
    > > itself is not, so you still need permission.
    > >
    > > Note that, in some jurisdictions, merely capturing sound is not creation
    > > of a copyrighted work, so recording, say, the sound of traffic does not
    > > produce a recording protected by copyright.

    >
    > It does in the United States.
    >


    Just holding up a mic and recording a natural ambient source verbatim
    probably does not. (Simply using the on button is not even minimal
    creativity.) Mixing several sources together, refining or coloring the
    source, or adding other original authorship would.
     
    J. Byron, Aug 29, 2003
    #10
  11. Dr. Bob

    J. Byron Guest

    Karen Weissman <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > > > I am working up "slide shows" with Fotoangelo, and would like to include
    > > > sound files in .wav format. What I want is "classical" music, on which any
    > > > copyrights, if they ever existed, have long expired. Can someone direct me
    > > > to a Web site? Thanks! reply via email.

    > >
    > > There's no such thing. Even if the copyright on the underlying work has
    > > expired, the recording itself is still protected by copyright and, almost
    > > certainly, is unexpired.

    >
    > Very true, but the whole idea of worrying about copyright for a slide show is
    > ridiculous. True, the rights owners of the song happy birthday did sue the
    > girl scouts for singing the song at a campfire, but that is a really really rare
    > thing to happen, and so many people will get outraged by the suit that it will
    > eventually get dropped.
    >


    Sued? Read this:
    http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2003/7/5/112441/6280
    http://www.jazz-sax.com/articles/03/06/30/066203.shtml?tid=71
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/943017/posts

    > Just use whatever music you want to. (This isn't going to be on network
    > television, or sold as a product in stores, is it?) The chance of someone at
    > your little slideshow reporting you to the orchestra that recorded the music,
    > and them taking the time to find and sue you for using them in a slide show for
    > your club or friends or whatever, is much slimmer than you winning the lottery
    > or getting hit by lightning.
    >
    > WORST CASE, you can expect a letter from their attorney telling you to "cease
    > and desist" from using it. So then you stop, and that is as far as it gets.


    You could be liable for statutory damages. Stupid idea to use a widely
    known commercial piece of music. Just ask any recipient of an RIAA
    subpoena.
     
    J. Byron, Aug 29, 2003
    #11
  12. Dr. Bob

    J. Byron Guest

    "Dr. Bob" <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > I am working up "slide shows" with Fotoangelo, and would like to include
    > sound files in .wav format. What I want is "classical" music, on which any
    > copyrights, if they ever existed, have long expired. Can someone direct me
    > to a Web site? Thanks! reply via email.


    PD sheet music:
    http://www.pdinfo.com
    http://www.mutopiaproject.org

    You could ask someone like this to make you a WAV:
    http://www.perfessorbill.com
    http://www.pdmusic.org
    http://www.redsal.com
    (Or ask someone on a music or midi usenet group.)
     
    J. Byron, Aug 29, 2003
    #12
  13. Dr. Bob

    J. Byron Guest

    Lisa Horton <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > PTRAVEL wrote:
    > >
    > > "Dr. Bob" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > > > I am working up "slide shows" with Fotoangelo, and would like to include
    > > > sound files in .wav format. What I want is "classical" music, on which any
    > > > copyrights, if they ever existed, have long expired. Can someone direct me
    > > > to a Web site? Thanks! reply via email.

    > >
    > > There's no such thing. Even if the copyright on the underlying work has
    > > expired, the recording itself is still protected by copyright and, almost
    > > certainly, is unexpired.
    > >

    >
    > Might MIDI files be okay to use? Might they be more akin to a score
    > than a performance?
    >


    It is true that the Copyright Office has been accepting MIDI deposits.
    However, form SR is for registration of a performance. The files
    themselves CANNOT be protected by copyright. Formatting and structure
    would be under the jurisdiction of a patent, not a copyright. For
    example, if a hand-entered MIDI contains an exact reproduction of a
    public domain work, then it would be afforded very little protection.
    (It is creativity and authorship that is protected, not simply hard
    work.) Whatever public domain authorship remains after any original
    material is stripped out remains public domain. Yes that is true. In
    addition, registered MIDIS do not enjoy all of the protection afforded
    to an actual recording. For example, it would be an infringement to
    capture an identifiable sampling of a recording. There is no direct
    analogy to that for a MIDI file. In addition, any lawyer will tell you
    that form SR only registers the recording, not the song itself. (SR =
    Sound Recording) For maximum protection and statutory damages, one
    would want to register the material on form PA as well. In any case,
    you might be surprised what the courts have said about new
    arrangements of public domain music and the threshold for protection.
    For example, simple "cocktail variations" of a public domain song do
    not qualify for protection, some of which is mentioned in:
    http://www.pdinfo.com/source/N374339.htm
     
    J. Byron, Aug 29, 2003
    #13
  14. Dr. Bob

    J. Byron Guest

    "Dr. Bob" <> wrote in message news:<>...
    > I am working up "slide shows" with Fotoangelo, and would like to include
    > sound files in .wav format. What I want is "classical" music, on which any
    > copyrights, if they ever existed, have long expired. Can someone direct me
    > to a Web site? Thanks! reply via email.


    Classical MIDI:
    http://www.laurasmidiheaven.com
    http://www.classicalarchives.net
    http://www.midiworld.com/classic.htm
    http://www.sciortino.net/music/
    http://users.rcn.com/rfinley/

    Folk:
    http://www.contemplator.com
    http://www.pdmusic.org
     
    J. Byron, Aug 29, 2003
    #14
  15. > > WORST CASE, you can expect a letter from their attorney telling you to "cease
    > > and desist" from using it. So then you stop, and that is as far as it gets.

    >
    > You could be liable for statutory damages. Stupid idea to use a widely
    > known commercial piece of music. Just ask any recipient of an RIAA
    > subpoena.


    For a silly little slide show I put on for my friends or at a club? How would the RIAA even KNOW
    about it?
     
    Cheryl Conice, Aug 30, 2003
    #15
  16. Dr. Bob

    PTRAVEL Guest

    "Don Stauffer" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Unfortunately, the performance of a musical piece is also copyright by
    > the performing artists. The only way you can get a truly copyright-free
    > piece of classical music is to have your own friends and acquaintances
    > perform it from public domain sheet music. Or, type it into a
    > music-generating piece of software, such as a midi-editor, using
    > multiple tracks and instruments. The performers are doing the same
    > thing as a photographer photographing nature.


    Just to clarify, the performance is copyright-protected only if it has been
    fixed in a tangible medium, i.e. recorded. If you go to a live jazz
    performance where the performers improvise their music, and no recording is
    made other than your own, there is no copyright problem in using the
    recording.


    >
    > "Dr. Bob" wrote:
    > >
    > > I am working up "slide shows" with Fotoangelo, and would like to include
    > > sound files in .wav format. What I want is "classical" music, on which

    any
    > > copyrights, if they ever existed, have long expired. Can someone direct

    me
    > > to a Web site? Thanks! reply via email.

    >
    > --
    > Don Stauffer in Minnesota
    >
    > webpage- http://www.usfamily.net/web/stauffer
     
    PTRAVEL, Aug 30, 2003
    #16
  17. Dr. Bob

    PTRAVEL Guest

    "J. Byron" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "PTRAVEL" <> wrote in message

    news:<binm1i$b55e6$-berlin.de>...
    > > "Mxsmanic" <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > > > Dr. Bob writes:
    > > >
    > > > > What I want is "classical" music, on which any
    > > > > copyrights, if they ever existed, have long expired.
    > > >
    > > > The only way to have this is if you perform and record the music
    > > > yourself. Otherwise the _performance_ is copyrighted, even if the

    music
    > > > itself is not, so you still need permission.
    > > >
    > > > Note that, in some jurisdictions, merely capturing sound is not

    creation
    > > > of a copyrighted work, so recording, say, the sound of traffic does

    not
    > > > produce a recording protected by copyright.

    > >
    > > It does in the United States.
    > >

    >
    > Just holding up a mic and recording a natural ambient source verbatim
    > probably does not. (Simply using the on button is not even minimal
    > creativity.)


    Sorry, but you're wrong. The act of selection, both of the sound itself, as
    well as the choice and configuation of the recording medium constitutes
    sufficient originality as to qualify for copyright protection.

    > Mixing several sources together, refining or coloring the
    > source, or adding other original authorship would.


    See above.
     
    PTRAVEL, Aug 30, 2003
    #17
  18. Dr. Bob

    PTRAVEL Guest

    "J. Byron" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Lisa Horton <> wrote in message

    news:<>...
    > > PTRAVEL wrote:
    > > >
    > > > "Dr. Bob" <> wrote in message
    > > > news:...
    > > > > I am working up "slide shows" with Fotoangelo, and would like to

    include
    > > > > sound files in .wav format. What I want is "classical" music, on

    which any
    > > > > copyrights, if they ever existed, have long expired. Can someone

    direct me
    > > > > to a Web site? Thanks! reply via email.
    > > >
    > > > There's no such thing. Even if the copyright on the underlying work

    has
    > > > expired, the recording itself is still protected by copyright and,

    almost
    > > > certainly, is unexpired.
    > > >

    > >
    > > Might MIDI files be okay to use? Might they be more akin to a score
    > > than a performance?



    Sorry I didn't see the post to which J. Byron is replying. No, midi files
    are not okay, unless you create the midi file. If you take a public domain
    work and create your own midi file, you're in the clear, but you've also
    created a protectable work in its own right. If you use someone else's midi
    file of a public domain work, you've committed copyright infringement unless
    you do so with permission.


    >
    > It is true that the Copyright Office has been accepting MIDI deposits.
    > However, form SR is for registration of a performance. The files
    > themselves CANNOT be protected by copyright.


    Sorry, I disagree. Midi files are fixation in a tangible medium, and are
    protectable.

    > Formatting and structure
    > would be under the jurisdiction of a patent, not a copyright.


    Not at all. Patents protect ideas, not expression. A midi file does not
    encompass new, novel or non-obvious invention and are not protectable under
    patent.

    > For
    > example, if a hand-entered MIDI contains an exact reproduction of a
    > public domain work, then it would be afforded very little protection.


    It would to the the extent that verbatim copying would constitute
    infringement. Translation from one medium to another has, for nearly a
    century, resulted in protectable expression.

    > (It is creativity and authorship that is protected, not simply hard
    > work.)


    It is _originality_, not creativity, of expression that is protected.

    > Whatever public domain authorship remains after any original
    > material is stripped out remains public domain. Yes that is true.


    Exactly right.

    > In
    > addition, registered MIDIS do not enjoy all of the protection afforded
    > to an actual recording. For example, it would be an infringement to
    > capture an identifiable sampling of a recording. There is no direct
    > analogy to that for a MIDI file.


    There certainly is. If you copy my midi file, which I authored, you have
    infringed my copyright.

    > In addition, any lawyer will tell you
    > that form SR only registers the recording, not the song itself. (SR =
    > Sound Recording) For maximum protection and statutory damages, one
    > would want to register the material on form PA as well.


    True.

    > In any case,
    > you might be surprised what the courts have said about new
    > arrangements of public domain music and the threshold for protection.
    > For example, simple "cocktail variations" of a public domain song do
    > not qualify for protection, some of which is mentioned in:
    > http://www.pdinfo.com/source/N374339.htm
     
    PTRAVEL, Aug 30, 2003
    #18
  19. Dr. Bob

    Mxsmanic Guest

    J. Byron writes:

    > It is true that the Copyright Office has been accepting MIDI deposits.
    > However, form SR is for registration of a performance. The files
    > themselves CANNOT be protected by copyright.


    Yes, they can, because MIDI files are software. I don't agree with it,
    but that's how it is. Computer files containing type fonts are
    "protected" in the same way (font files are considered software).

    --
    Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
     
    Mxsmanic, Aug 30, 2003
    #19
  20. Dr. Bob

    Mxsmanic Guest

    PTRAVEL writes:

    > It does in the United States.


    On what basis?

    --
    Transpose hotmail and mxsmanic in my e-mail address to reach me directly.
     
    Mxsmanic, Aug 30, 2003
    #20
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