No Software Patents In NZ!

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Apr 1, 2010.

  1. The Select Committee reporting on the new Patents Bill has said that
    software should be specifically listed among items that cannot be patented
    <http://techdirt.com/articles/20100330/1852558798.shtml>.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Apr 1, 2010
    #1
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  2. Powerful opposition is gathering
    <http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/development/nzoss-expects-powerful-opposition-to-patent-reform#39C900C21B7669DBCC257700003C8A5F>.

    One thing that worried me about the way the Select Committee phrased things,
    is that their specific mention that “Protecting software by patenting it is
    inconsistent with the open source model and its proponents oppose it†could
    be seen to be favouring one group (open-source developers) over others.

    I wonder if this was deliberate, or am I simply seeing too many wheels
    within wheels...
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Apr 9, 2010
    #2
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  3. The Commerce Minister says he agrees with the Select Committee
    <http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/development/power-backs-deletion-of-software-patents>:

    Power says the issue is not simple or straightforward. "However, the
    Government believes the committee has dealt with the issue in a sensible
    manner and has found a reasonable solution."

    However, Microsoft’s Mark Rees naturally doesn’t agree. This in spite of the
    fact that Microsoft has so far had to pay out much more than it’s been able
    to make on software patents.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Apr 12, 2010
    #3
  4. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Sweetpea Guest

    On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:19:04 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    > However, Microsoft’s Mark Rees naturally doesn’t agree.


    That's because Microsoft has a financial interest in pushing for the patenting of mathematical
    algorithms (which cannot be patented).

    All applications for software patents without exception should be declined. Mathematics is not an
    invention.


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
    Sweetpea, Apr 12, 2010
    #4
  5. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    victor Guest

    On 12/04/2010 6:49 p.m., Sweetpea wrote:
    > On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 12:19:04 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> However, Microsoft’s Mark Rees naturally doesn’t agree.

    >
    > That's because Microsoft has a financial interest in pushing for the patenting of mathematical
    > algorithms (which cannot be patented).
    >
    > All applications for software patents without exception should be declined. Mathematics is not an
    > invention.
    >
    >

    Jolly good principle to start out with.
    But patents for software inventions and the whole body of legal
    precedent concerning them already exists.
    And as they say, you can't get the shit back in the donkey
    victor, Apr 12, 2010
    #5
  6. In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:

    > That's because Microsoft has a financial interest in pushing for the
    > patenting of mathematical algorithms (which cannot be patented).


    Then how come RSA got patented?
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Apr 12, 2010
    #6
  7. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Sweetpea Guest

    On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 20:00:14 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    > In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >
    >> That's because Microsoft has a financial interest in pushing for the
    >> patenting of mathematical algorithms (which cannot be patented).

    >
    > Then how come RSA got patented?


    I can't explain how RSA got patented. What is its NZ patent Nr?


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
    Sweetpea, Apr 12, 2010
    #7
  8. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Sweetpea Guest

    On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 19:31:40 +1200, victor wrote:

    >> That's because Microsoft has a financial interest in pushing for the
    >> patenting of mathematical algorithms (which cannot be patented).
    >>
    >> All applications for software patents without exception should be
    >> declined. Mathematics is not an invention.
    >>
    >>

    > Jolly good principle to start out with. But patents for software
    > inventions and the whole body of legal precedent concerning them already
    > exists.


    Irrelevant. In the USA patents are regularly challenged and ruled to be invalid.


    > And as they say, you can't get the shit back in the donkey


    "Shit" and donkeys are irrelevant to patents and software.


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
    Sweetpea, Apr 12, 2010
    #8
  9. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    victor Guest

    On 12/04/10 21:47, Sweetpea wrote:
    > On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 19:31:40 +1200, victor wrote:
    >
    >>> That's because Microsoft has a financial interest in pushing for the
    >>> patenting of mathematical algorithms (which cannot be patented).
    >>>
    >>> All applications for software patents without exception should be
    >>> declined. Mathematics is not an invention.
    >>>
    >>>

    >> Jolly good principle to start out with. But patents for software
    >> inventions and the whole body of legal precedent concerning them already
    >> exists.

    >
    > Irrelevant. In the USA patents are regularly challenged and ruled to be invalid.


    Yet the RSA patent held by MIT for its full term wasn't.


    >
    >
    >> And as they say, you can't get the shit back in the donkey

    >
    > "Shit" and donkeys are irrelevant to patents and software.
    >
    >

    LOL, I can't believe that one went over your head.
    victor, Apr 12, 2010
    #9
  10. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Sweetpea Guest

    On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 22:18:26 +1200, victor wrote:

    >> Irrelevant. In the USA patents are regularly challenged and ruled to be
    >> invalid.

    >
    > Yet the RSA patent held by MIT for its full term wasn't.


    Was it a patent that got challenged?

    Was such a patent registered here in NZ or only in the USA - a nation that has defective patent laws?


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
    Sweetpea, Apr 12, 2010
    #10
  11. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    victor Guest

    On 12/04/10 22:33, Sweetpea wrote:
    > On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 22:18:26 +1200, victor wrote:
    >
    >>> Irrelevant. In the USA patents are regularly challenged and ruled to be
    >>> invalid.

    >>
    >> Yet the RSA patent held by MIT for its full term wasn't.

    >
    > Was it a patent that got challenged?
    >
    > Was such a patent registered here in NZ or only in the USA - a nation that has defective patent laws?
    >
    >

    Obviously MIT patented their US invention in the US.
    NZ is insignificant to them.
    victor, Apr 12, 2010
    #11
  12. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    Sweetpea Guest

    On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:07:53 +1200, victor wrote:

    >>> Yet the RSA patent held by MIT for its full term wasn't.

    >>
    >> Was it a patent that got challenged?
    >>
    >> Was such a patent registered here in NZ or only in the USA - a nation
    >> that has defective patent laws?
    >>
    >>

    > Obviously MIT patented their US invention in the US. NZ is insignificant
    > to them.


    So, it was never patented.

    What happens in the USA (with respect to patents) is not relevant to NZ.


    --
    "Filtering the Internet is like trying to boil the ocean"
    Sweetpea, Apr 12, 2010
    #12
  13. Lawrence D'Oliveiro

    victor Guest

    On 13/04/2010 12:11 a.m., Sweetpea wrote:
    > On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 23:07:53 +1200, victor wrote:
    >
    >>>> Yet the RSA patent held by MIT for its full term wasn't.
    >>>
    >>> Was it a patent that got challenged?
    >>>
    >>> Was such a patent registered here in NZ or only in the USA - a nation
    >>> that has defective patent laws?
    >>>
    >>>

    >> Obviously MIT patented their US invention in the US. NZ is insignificant
    >> to them.

    >
    > So, it was never patented.
    >
    > What happens in the USA (with respect to patents) is not relevant to NZ.
    >
    >

    Except if you want to sell software that infringes US patents to US
    customers or anywhere else it is patented, you are completely fucked,
    regardless of whether it is patented in New Zealand or not.
    That's why revising software patent laws in NZ is symbolic, but
    practically of little significance.
    victor, Apr 12, 2010
    #13
  14. In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:

    > On Mon, 12 Apr 2010 20:00:14 +1200, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:
    >
    >> In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:
    >>
    >>> That's because Microsoft has a financial interest in pushing for the
    >>> patenting of mathematical algorithms (which cannot be patented).

    >>
    >> Then how come RSA got patented?

    >
    > I can't explain how RSA got patented.


    Maybe you should learn a bit more about patents before spouting off.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Apr 13, 2010
    #14
  15. In message <>, Sweetpea wrote:

    > What happens in the USA (with respect to patents) is not relevant to NZ.


    It most certainly is. I have had one client receive a threat of litigation
    over a US-registered patent.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Apr 13, 2010
    #15
  16. The New Zealand Computer Society also opposes software patents
    <http://nzoss.org.nz/news/2010/nz-computer-society-software-patents>:

    ... I would like to first say that we believe that everyone has a
    fundamental right to protect their own property, and consequently
    support the *concept* of Copyright and Intellectual Property.

    However this has to be balanced against the huge damage software patents
    have caused to the ICT sector in overseas jurisdictions - it hasn't been
    pretty ...
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Apr 13, 2010
    #16
  17. In message <hpn1oi$puj$>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    > Powerful opposition is gathering ...


    “Software patent ban could damage investmentâ€
    <http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/development/software-patent-ban-could-damage-investment>:

    Any exclusion of software from the New Zealand patents regime will “suck
    the lifeblood†out of the New Zealand software development industry,
    says Chris Auld, director of strategy and innovation at Microsoft-
    specialist developer Intergen.

    Completely ignoring all the evidence to the contrary...

    And the NZICT says
    <http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/nzict-says-patents-integral-to-software-protection>:

    “Software patents, while acknowledged as a less than perfect solution in
    some areas, are none-the-less integral to an individual or company’s
    right for commercial protection and essential for competing globally. We
    believe that it is very important that companies retain the option to
    protect their innovations under patent law, if that is their choiceâ€

    Forgetting, of course, that software already has copyright protection, why
    does it need patenting as well? Nothing else we create gets to double-dip
    the legal system in this way.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Apr 15, 2010
    #17
  18. Orion Health, which claims to be NZ’s largest application vendor, is against
    software patents
    <http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/development/orion-health-backs-moves-to-block-patents>:

    [CEO Ian] McCrae does not believe a patent offers an innovative software
    company like his any practical protection in any case.

    “We would have to change the nature of our business and become a patents
    company,†he says. “We are a software company. Our best protection is to
    innovate and innovate fast.â€

    Which reinforces the point that patents do not benefit the innovators in a
    growing business, they instead tend to be used by incumbents to block new
    competition.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Apr 15, 2010
    #18
  19. In message <hq196i$q88$>, Lawrence D'Oliveiro wrote:

    > The New Zealand Computer Society also opposes software patents ...


    .... and has sent a letter to the Commerce Minister saying so. Apparently a
    “quick poll†found 80% of its membership in favour of this stance
    <http://computerworld.co.nz/news.nsf/news/nzcs-lobbies-to-end-patent-protection-for-software>.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Apr 17, 2010
    #19
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