No one speaks english anymore??

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Michael, Dec 23, 2003.

  1. "Paul Heslop" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Michael wrote:
    >
    > >
    > > Having different cultured people here from other countries is not

    what
    > > bothers me. I indicated this in my original post. It's the fact that I

    get
    > > an arrogant attitude and treated badly because I can't understand their
    > > native language.
    > >

    >
    > And what do people from other cultures not speaking english have to do

    with
    > photography?
    >
    > Paul.
    >

    -------

    Should I be thinking "arrogant bastard" here?...

    It's a cinch you don't live in deepest darkest Peckham, that's for sure -
    but really - what does speaking English have to do with photography either?

    If cameras and speaking a particular language simply must be joined, then we
    should all be speaking Japanese.

    We have met the enemy and it is us!
    ---- Pogo

    Journalist
     
    Journalist-North, Dec 23, 2003
    #61
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  2. "zbzbzb" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > >Well, where to start?
    > >
    > >1. Yes, you have a point. We're a great melting pot.
    > >Personally, I don't get upset at all the different cultures, but it is
    > >disturbing that our laws and customs are inconsistent. Witness the
    > >driver's license issue in CA.

    >
    >
    > I agree. Many California laws, or lack of them, for example, encourage

    illegal
    > immigration. It's a joke. The drivers license issue was a perfect example

    of
    > that.
    >
    >

    -------

    Oh...and let's not forget the bank accounts for los emigrantes either. Just
    something else to complain about.

    Make 'em do their math in English! That will teach 'em.

    Journalist
     
    Journalist-North, Dec 23, 2003
    #62
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  3. Michael

    Guest

    "Michael" <> wrote:

    >[ranting incoherent screeching of total incomprehensibility]


    Usted es un pendejo grande. Why the **** do you think anyone is
    going to care a damn about your pretty obvious language problems? If
    it was in _my_ store where you chose to harrass people, I would have
    asked you to leave. At gunpoint, if necessary.
     
    , Dec 23, 2003
    #63
  4. Michael

    Eric Witte Guest

    > Not exactly. English may be the more common language, but Spanish is
    > mandatory, and English is NOT. Children who speak Spanish are NOT
    > required to learn English. The government is NOT required to print
    > notices in English. It DOES, but there is no legal requirement that
    > spells out such a requirement.


    Its not mandatory because it is a given. They are not required to
    learn English but they are required to go to a English speaking
    school. Even if they can get by with ESL they basically still have to
    learn English. Children are not really the problem though. The
    children usually pick up on it well. The problem is the parents that
    refuse to learn English. I'm learning Spanish because I will be
    VISITING Peru often. Note the "visiting" and not "living."

    Eric
     
    Eric Witte, Dec 23, 2003
    #64
  5. Michael

    Eric Witte Guest

    > >I don't know where you got that. We are starting to move tech support
    > >over to India as well. AFAIK 100% of Dell's level 1 support is now in
    > >India.
    > >
    > >Eric

    >
    > Dell abandoned most of their tech support from India recently. I'm sure others
    > will follow too. I mean if you can't understand the person trying to help you
    > then what's the point?


    Really? I did not hear that. They usually speak English very well.
    They are taught English growing up in India.

    Eric
     
    Eric Witte, Dec 23, 2003
    #65
  6. Michael

    Paul Heslop Guest

    Journalist-North wrote:

    > "Paul Heslop" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Michael wrote:
    > >
    > > >
    > > > Having different cultured people here from other countries is not

    > what
    > > > bothers me. I indicated this in my original post. It's the fact that I

    > get
    > > > an arrogant attitude and treated badly because I can't understand their
    > > > native language.
    > > >

    > >
    > > And what do people from other cultures not speaking english have to do

    > with
    > > photography?
    > >
    > > Paul.
    > >

    > -------
    >
    > Should I be thinking "arrogant bastard" here?...
    >
    > It's a cinch you don't live in deepest darkest Peckham, that's for sure -
    > but really - what does speaking English have to do with photography either?
    >
    > If cameras and speaking a particular language simply must be joined, then we
    > should all be speaking Japanese.
    >
    > We have met the enemy and it is us!
    > ---- Pogo
    >
    > Journalist


    Have you, or Michael, taken a look at what this group is about? I don't mind
    threads veering off occasionally but there's only one word for this message and
    it is prejudism.

    oh yeah, no, I don't live in Peckham, I live in the North East, where women are
    women, men are men and sheep are scared.

    My point to Michael was simply that his post is not just a little off topic but
    has nothing at all to do with this group what so bloody ever.

    BTW if you think I'm arrogant you haven't been in this group long enough.


    --
    Paul.
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    to look at
    http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
     
    Paul Heslop, Dec 23, 2003
    #66
  7. Michael

    Paul Heslop Guest

    Journalist-North wrote:

    > "Paul Heslop" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Andy Blanchard wrote:
    > >
    > > > On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 15:50:55 GMT, Paul Heslop
    > > > <> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > >Michael wrote:
    > > > >and you forgot to ask whether they sold digital cameras?
    > > >
    > > > He probably asked about a digital camera, or an accessory for one, but
    > > > didn't understand the replies:
    > > >
    > > > Michael: "Is this lens any good?"
    > > > Manuel: "Eeesa Seegma."
    > > > Michael: "Pardon?"
    > > > Manuel: "Eeee-saaa Seeeeg-maaa."
    > > > ...
    > > >
    > > > Andy

    > >
    > > :O) You'll have to excuse him, he's from Barcelona.
    > >
    > > Paul.
    > >

    > --------
    >
    > ¿Qué? Pienso que usted necesita escribir con cartas grandes y escribir a
    > máquina más lento.
    >
    > LOL
    >
    > Journalist = One who reads, writes and speaks 5 languages...all badly...and
    > all with a New York accent...but at least I try.


    La línea es de las torres de un Fawlty... y no hablo español. :O)



    --
    Paul.
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    to look at
    http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
     
    Paul Heslop, Dec 23, 2003
    #67
  8. Michael

    Paul Heslop Guest

    wrote:

    > "Michael" <> wrote:
    >
    > >[ranting incoherent screeching of total incomprehensibility]

    >
    > Usted es un pendejo grande. Why the **** do you think anyone is
    > going to care a damn about your pretty obvious language problems? If
    > it was in _my_ store where you chose to harrass people, I would have
    > asked you to leave. At gunpoint, if necessary.


    ¡Eso es él, usted dice el mofo! :O)


    --
    Paul.
    --------------------------------------------------------------
    to look at
    http://www.geocities.com/dreamst8me/
     
    Paul Heslop, Dec 23, 2003
    #68
  9. Michael

    Noel Guest

    Re: OT: No one speaks english anymore??

    On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 11:04:33 GMT, "Mike" <>
    wrote:

    >Come to little old England our customer services in banking, insurance and
    >telephone companies are mainly, or soon going to be, in India.


    And with an increasing customer backlash, will the move really mean
    increased profits?

    >Where they speak pucker English ( sounds like Welsh accent). The trouble
    >with this is, they are probably better educated that the people they serve.


    Sorry, but that is absolute nonsense, a myth propagated by those who
    want such jobs to be outsourced abroad.

    >They are mainly university graduates and the money they earn is better that
    >the indigenous work available locally can pay, but its cheaper for our
    >industries to do this and soon nobody will be working in England.


    Their customers are mainly university graduates too, many from
    universities with far higher academic standards than any university in
    India.
     
    Noel, Dec 23, 2003
    #69
  10. Michael

    Noel Guest

    Re: OT: No one speaks english anymore??

    On Tue, 23 Dec 2003 06:12:56 -0800, Mark Herring
    <> wrote:


    >2. Doesn't the same thing happen in a lot of big cities around
    >the world?


    Perhaps, but don't you think it a bit arrogant to expect that you can
    emigrate to another country, and get away with never speaking the
    majority language of that country? When I moved to Moscow, I did not
    entertain such a notion, and set about learning Russian.
     
    Noel, Dec 23, 2003
    #70
  11. Michael

    Guest

    bzbzb (zbzbzb) wrote:

    > Where in his post is there any sign of him being "prejudice??"


    Where is his post is there any sign of cogent thought processes??
     
    , Dec 23, 2003
    #71
  12. zbzbzb schreef in bericht
    <>:

    > Nope, we just put together words as they pop into our heads between grunts and
    > chirps.


    I personally think the OP did just that. So it seems my assumption was
    correct.

    > Did anyone ever teach you how to address someone without being insulting to
    > many others?


    You seem to forget that the OP was (also) speaking in general terms
    about 'people that do not speak the English language correctly'.

    One may argue about the fact that the OP used the word 'that' here
    where he may have meant to use the word 'who', but I personally think
    that using the same structure in a sentence as the person you are
    addressing has used, is a well accepted form of expressing criticism.
    This has little or nothing to do with 'insulting many others'.
    But if the shoe fits, you might just as well wear it if you like.

    Looking at your response to the OP in message
    news:
    you seem to agree with about 90% of what he said. Now where did I read
    your criticism about the OP insulting all others than the ones he
    spoke in the shops he visited when he spoke about them as 'people that
    do not speak the English language correctly'?

    > Of course that may have been your intention.


    My intention was to make clear that the OP seemed to have quite a lot
    to say about the way his fellow US citizens speak (or do not speak)
    English correctly (whatever this 'correctly' may be) without thinking
    about the fact that he himself seems to deliver a rather sloppy job
    using his language in a written form in a newsgroup. A place where
    written language is the only thing you have to expess your opinion and
    where many not native English speaking people have to read your text.

    Frank
     
    Frank van der Pol, Dec 24, 2003
    #72
  13. Michael

    zbzbzb Guest

    >> I agree. Many California laws, or lack of them, for example, encourage
    >illegal
    >> immigration. It's a joke. The drivers license issue was a perfect example

    >of
    >> that.
    >>
    >>

    >-------
    >
    >Oh...and let's not forget the bank accounts for los emigrantes either. Just
    >something else to complain about.
    >
    >Make 'em do their math in English! That will teach 'em.
    >
    >Journalist
    >


    "Bank accounts?"
     
    zbzbzb, Dec 24, 2003
    #73
  14. Michael

    zbzbzb Guest

    >> Where in his post is there any sign of him being "prejudice??"
    >
    >Where is his post is there any sign of cogent thought processes??
    >


    If you couldn't understand him then maybe you should be more concerned about
    something else.
     
    zbzbzb, Dec 24, 2003
    #74
  15. Michael

    zbzbzb Guest

    >> Nope, we just put together words as they pop into our heads between grunts
    >and
    >> chirps.

    >
    >I personally think the OP did just that. So it seems my assumption was
    >correct.



    No, I think you were simply looking for the opportunity to insult not just him
    but others from his country.


    >> Did anyone ever teach you how to address someone without being insulting to
    >> many others?

    >
    >You seem to forget that the OP was (also) speaking in general terms
    >about 'people that do not speak the English language correctly'.
    >


    No, he was speaking about his experiences with a certain group of people in the
    area where he lives. Simple as that. He also asked for other American opinions.
    In what way was he insulting to others? His experience is actually quite
    accurate.

    Even if he was insulting would that make it right for you to do the same?


    >One may argue about the fact that the OP used the word 'that' here
    >where he may have meant to use the word 'who', but I personally think
    >that using the same structure in a sentence as the person you are
    >addressing has used, is a well accepted form of expressing criticism.
    >This has little or nothing to do with 'insulting many others'.
    >But if the shoe fits, you might just as well wear it if you like.



    Now I don't even know what the heck you are talking about. :)


    >Looking at your response to the OP in message
    >news:
    >you seem to agree with about 90% of what he said. Now where did I read
    >your criticism about the OP insulting all others than the ones he
    >spoke in the shops he visited when he spoke about them as 'people that
    >do not speak the English language correctly'?



    Stop it, you're killing me. :)


    >My intention was to make clear that the OP seemed to have quite a lot
    >to say about the way his fellow US citizens speak (or do not speak)
    >English correctly (whatever this 'correctly' may be) without thinking
    >about the fact that he himself seems to deliver a rather sloppy job
    >using his language in a written form in a newsgroup.



    I understood what he said with no problems at all. If I was judging a persons
    ability to write over the content of their message then I would care.
    Personally most people who post to newsgroups don't. If they can understand
    then it usually isn't a problem. I suspect most English speaking individuals
    had no problem understanding him so I see no problem.


    >A place where
    >written language is the only thing you have to expess your opinion and
    >where many not native English speaking people have to read your text.


    >Frank


    It isn't his responsibility to make sure you can understand his native
    language. If you didn't understand something why not just kindly ask him? It
    would be much more productive than trying to make him and those from his
    country look foolish.

    Scroll back up where I said "Stop it, you're killing me." Do you know why I
    said that? Read what you wrote. Isn't it ironic that you are attacking the guy
    for not being able to write English well while you completely massacre it
    yourself?

    Also, you should keep in mind that he was addressing other Americans and he
    made that clear.
     
    zbzbzb, Dec 24, 2003
    #75
  16. Michael

    Ron Hunter Guest

    Marvin Margoshes wrote:
    > "Michael" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    >>Ok, since a lot of people abroad from America probably read this group I'm
    >>going to post it here and hopefully get some good feedback. I was born and
    >>raised on the East Coast of the US. I grew up in not so nice neighborhoods
    >>so I have some street smarts and I'm aware of what's going on out there. I
    >>am not a prejudice person.

    >
    > <snip>
    >
    > I see prejudice in your posting. When I grew up in Brooklyn (I was born in
    > 1925), I would bicycle from one neighborhood to another, and in most of them
    > I'd hear a language other than English spoken in the streets. Only one of
    > my four grandparents spoke more than a few words of English. In one
    > generation, everyone spoke English. It is no different with today's
    > immigrants.

    Yes, it IS. Many second and third generation immigrants these days
    DON'T, and WON'T speak English. When I was in school, one girl in my
    class said her grandmother wouldn't allow English to be spoken in the
    house, not even English textbooks she used in school. Her grandmother
    would burn them if she saw them.


    > Before we moved four years ago, we lived in a community with a large nunber
    > of Hispanics. About 40% of the schoolchildren were listed as Hispanic. I
    > saw that the parents were hard working and very much family oriented. I
    > went to high school graduations even after all my children were out of
    > school because I was on the school board. Each year, I saw a growing
    > percentage of the Hispanic graduates going on to college.
    >
    > The melting pot still works. Celebrate the American heritage.
    >
    >

    Whne the melting pot is allowed to work, but many today are lumps in
    that melting pot.
     
    Ron Hunter, Dec 24, 2003
    #76
  17. zbzbzb schreef in bericht
    <>:

    > No, I think you were simply looking for the opportunity to insult not just him
    > but others from his country.


    If you say so, it must be true. Who the hell am I to disagree with you
    on what you say my intentions were...

    > No, he was speaking about his experiences with a certain group of people in the
    > area where he lives.


    He was speaking about 'people that do not speak the English language
    correctly'. I deliberately used quotes. It is literally what he said.

    > Simple as that. He also asked for other American opinions.
    > In what way was he insulting to others? His experience is actually quite
    > accurate.


    But probably also insulting to all others who do not speak the English
    language correctly, don't you think?

    > Even if he was insulting would that make it right for you to do the same?


    I think the whole question is irrelevant since I am not the one saying
    I'm insulting anyone.

    > >One may argue about the fact that the OP used the word 'that' here
    > >where he may have meant to use the word 'who', but I personally think
    > >that using the same structure in a sentence as the person you are
    > >addressing has used, is a well accepted form of expressing criticism.
    > >This has little or nothing to do with 'insulting many others'.
    > >But if the shoe fits, you might just as well wear it if you like.

    >
    >
    > Now I don't even know what the heck you are talking about. :)


    That doesn't surprise me, actually. It takes a few brain cells.
    (Ehh... yes, this clearly was meant to be insulting).

    > I understood what he said with no problems at all.


    Hmmmm... It appears you have learned to read texts without paragraphs
    That means I must have been correct and not insulting. You are the
    proof that in the US one clearly not only learns to write texts
    without paragraphs but also learns how to read texts without
    paragraphs.

    > If I was judging a persons
    > ability to write over the content of their message then I would care.
    > Personally most people who post to newsgroups don't. If they can understand
    > then it usually isn't a problem. I suspect most English speaking individuals
    > had no problem understanding him so I see no problem.


    I personally think the value of the content of a text can be measured
    quite easily by looking at the effort a person has put into writing
    it.

    > It isn't his responsibility to make sure you can understand his native
    > language.


    Language is more than a pile of words. What he wrote was a pile of
    words. The use of paragraphs would have changed that dramatically.

    > If you didn't understand something why not just kindly ask him?


    It's not about understanding, it is about presenting a text in an
    readable form. It is about being polite to readersn of your text.

    > It
    > would be much more productive than trying to make him and those from his
    > country look foolish.


    I am not. But that is clearly something I am not able to shove into
    your brain.

    > Scroll back up where I said "Stop it, you're killing me." Do you know why I
    > said that?


    To be honest, I actually don't give a damn.

    > Read what you wrote. Isn't it ironic that you are attacking the guy
    > for not being able to write English well


    I didn't attack him for not being able to write his English well. I
    attacked him for not using paragraphs, which would have made hist text
    much more readable for me, just as he expects others to speak English
    in such a way he can understand it.

    Frank
     
    Frank van der Pol, Dec 24, 2003
    #77
  18. Michael

    don' Guest

    x-no-archive:yes

    "Michael" <> wrote:

    > If I
    >were to move to another country I would certainly learn and be fluent in
    >that language and make sure I was ashamed if I couldn't speak it correctly.
    >I have no sympathy or feelings for these type (not all of them) of people
    >anymore that don't care.


    Just an observation: if you're in New Jersey or the Northeast as you
    say, it's likely the Hispanic people you're speaking of are of Puerto
    Rican descent. If so, and census figures support that, they didn't
    come to the US from "another country." This IS their country. The
    Jones Act of 1917 made Puerto Rico a territory of the United States.
    It also granted Puerto Ricans US citizenship, as did Congress in 1940.

    Many of these "type of people" were born US citizens and can live
    where they please anywhere in the US. Spanish IS they're language,
    they are certainly under no obligation to learn English, though I
    personally don't see why they don't. But then again the US annexed
    their island. Requiring Puerto Ricans to speak English wasn't part of
    that deal.

    Not every Spanish-speaking person you encounter crossed the border
    illegally from Mexico. Something to think of.
     
    don', Dec 24, 2003
    #78
  19. Michael

    zbzbzb Guest

    >> No, I think you were simply looking for the opportunity to insult not just
    >him
    >> but others from his country.

    >
    >If you say so, it must be true. Who the hell am I to disagree with you
    >on what you say my intentions were...
    >


    Your words in English were clear and well understood. Apparently English isn't
    your first language so maybe you still need to learn how to use it without
    being insulting.


    >> No, he was speaking about his experiences with a certain group of people in

    >the
    >> area where he lives.

    >
    >He was speaking about 'people that do not speak the English language
    >correctly'. I deliberately used quotes. It is literally what he said.



    Yes and he was speaking about his experience with a certain group of people in
    the part of America where he lives. Your point?


    >
    >> Simple as that. He also asked for other American opinions.
    >> In what way was he insulting to others? His experience is actually quite
    >> accurate.

    >
    >But probably also insulting to all others who do not speak the English
    >language correctly, don't you think?



    That's a bit paranoid don't you think? As far as I can see he was more critical
    of the hostile attitude he was receiving, not the fact there their English was
    lacking.


    >
    >> Even if he was insulting would that make it right for you to do the same?

    >
    >I think the whole question is irrelevant since I am not the one saying
    >I'm insulting anyone.



    Well your response was clearly insulting to him and his fellow citizens. If an
    Italian posted to this group and I didn't understand him I certainly wouldn't
    ask him in his own language whether they teach Itailian properly in Italy.
    Think about it.


    >
    >> >One may argue about the fact that the OP used the word 'that' here
    >> >where he may have meant to use the word 'who', but I personally think
    >> >that using the same structure in a sentence as the person you are
    >> >addressing has used, is a well accepted form of expressing criticism.
    >> >This has little or nothing to do with 'insulting many others'.
    >> >But if the shoe fits, you might just as well wear it if you like.

    >>
    >>
    >> Now I don't even know what the heck you are talking about. :)

    >
    >That doesn't surprise me, actually. It takes a few brain cells.
    >(Ehh... yes, this clearly was meant to be insulting).



    So there it is. You'd rather insult than be questioned on your usage of English
    but it's ok to question others on their use of English? A language that
    obviously isn't even your native one. Sounds pretty arrogant to me.


    >
    >> I understood what he said with no problems at all.

    >
    >Hmmmm... It appears you have learned to read texts without paragraphs



    No, it means that I understand English words.


    >That means I must have been correct and not insulting. You are the
    >proof that in the US one clearly not only learns to write texts
    >without paragraphs but also learns how to read texts without
    >paragraphs.
    >



    So there it is again. Your true colors are showing. Thank you.


    >> If I was judging a persons
    >> ability to write over the content of their message then I would care.
    >> Personally most people who post to newsgroups don't. If they can understand
    >> then it usually isn't a problem. I suspect most English speaking

    >individuals
    >> had no problem understanding him so I see no problem.

    >
    >I personally think the value of the content of a text can be measured
    >quite easily by looking at the effort a person has put into writing
    >it.
    >



    The value of the content of any text is its meaning, period. Anyone that can
    understand what the person has to say but quibbles over grammar and sentence
    structure to the extent that it becomes more important than the message itself
    is simply being elitist. Since you have shown how badly your English can be you
    should be a little more understanding in that regard, coinsidering this
    informal forum.


    >> It isn't his responsibility to make sure you can understand his native
    >> language.

    >
    >Language is more than a pile of words. What he wrote was a pile of
    >words. The use of paragraphs would have changed that dramatically.
    >



    They may have been a pile of words to you but they were obviously understood by
    all except you. Remember that they were also directed to other Americans even
    though you may find that insulting.



    >> If you didn't understand something why not just kindly ask him?

    >
    >It's not about understanding, it is about presenting a text in an
    >readable form. It is about being polite to readersn of your text.



    He was polite and it was readable. If you didn't understand him you could have
    asked him to explain something to you that you didn't understand. That would
    have been a polite response from you.


    >
    >> It
    >> would be much more productive than trying to make him and those from his
    >> country look foolish.

    >
    >I am not. But that is clearly something I am not able to shove into
    >your brain.



    Whether the English words you were using do not translate to something
    insulting in your native tongue it doesn't change the fact that they were.


    >
    >> Scroll back up where I said "Stop it, you're killing me." Do you know why

    >I
    >> said that?

    >
    >To be honest, I actually don't give a damn.



    Of course you do, otherwise you would not be responding. Nothing wrong with
    that either.


    >
    >> Read what you wrote. Isn't it ironic that you are attacking the guy
    >> for not being able to write English well

    >
    >I didn't attack him for not being able to write his English well. I
    >attacked him for not using paragraphs,



    Using paragraphs *is* part of writing well.

    Why "attack" him when simply asking him to explain something to you that you
    didn't understand would be the polite thing to do? Losing the US part would
    also take away the insult to other Americans. And don't think this is a US
    thing for me because I would be responding in exactly the same way if you made
    the remark about the UK or Australia in reply to a Brit or an Aussie.


    >which would have made hist text
    >much more readable for me, just as he expects others to speak English
    >in such a way he can understand it.
    >
    >Frank
    >


    The point of his post was to point out how a certain group of people where he
    lives are apparently being hostile to him because he could not understand them.
    I think you completely misunderstood his whole point and somehow took it
    personally. Again, it isn't his responsibility for you to understand his native
    language.
     
    zbzbzb, Dec 24, 2003
    #79
  20. Michael

    zbzbzb Guest

    >> The melting pot still works. Celebrate the American heritage.
    >>
    >>

    >Whne the melting pot is allowed to work, but many today are lumps in
    >that melting pot.


    I agree completely. The whole fixation on "embracing diversity" and other
    politically correct terms from ceratin political groups and organizations, that
    are ultimately meant to create inclusion, to the point of extremism, is having
    the opposite effect.
     
    zbzbzb, Dec 24, 2003
    #80
    1. Advertising

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