No mechanical shutter and TIFF

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by LOP, Jan 23, 2006.

  1. LOP

    LOP Guest

    I am looking for a digital camera with about 3MP resolution. I would like to
    generate 640X480 pictures in TIFF format. There is an additional requirement
    that this camera have no mechanical shutter or mirror. I thought that the
    Olympus D-575 was going to do the job but it apparently will not generate
    TIFF files for the 640X480 format.

    Looking for recomendations, Don and Liz



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    LOP, Jan 23, 2006
    #1
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  2. LOP

    Pat Guest

    I don't know that much about cameras without mechanical shutters, but
    is there a particular reason that you don't want one?
     
    Pat, Jan 23, 2006
    #2
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  3. LOP

    Jeremy Guest

    "LOP" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I am looking for a digital camera with about 3MP resolution. I would like
    >to generate 640X480 pictures in TIFF format. There is an additional
    >requirement that this camera have no mechanical shutter or mirror. I
    >thought that the Olympus D-575 was going to do the job but it apparently
    >will not generate TIFF files for the 640X480 format.
    >
    > Looking for recomendations, Don and Liz


    I never paid it much thought, but wouldn't ANY camera that displays the
    image on an LCD screen prior to snapping it (that leaves out DSLRs) have no
    mechanical shutter? If there were a closed shutter behind the lens, how
    could one see the image on the LCD screen?
     
    Jeremy, Jan 23, 2006
    #3
  4. LOP

    PcB Guest

    "Jeremy" <> wrote in message
    news:p49Bf.12231$Me5.3988@trnddc05...
    >
    > "LOP" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >>I am looking for a digital camera with about 3MP resolution. I would like
    >>to generate 640X480 pictures in TIFF format. There is an additional
    >>requirement that this camera have no mechanical shutter or mirror. I
    >>thought that the Olympus D-575 was going to do the job but it apparently
    >>will not generate TIFF files for the 640X480 format.
    >>
    >> Looking for recomendations, Don and Liz

    >
    > I never paid it much thought, but wouldn't ANY camera that displays the
    > image on an LCD screen prior to snapping it (that leaves out DSLRs) have
    > no mechanical shutter? If there were a closed shutter behind the lens,
    > how could one see the image on the LCD screen?
    >

    IIRC the shutter is open for the preview, then closes before the sensor
    buffer is flushed. Once the buffer is flushed the shutter opens for the
    required time and then the buffer is read for the exposure.

    I guess this explains the shutter lag.

    --
    Paul ============}
    o o

    // Live fast, die old //

    Gallery at http://homepage.ntlworld.com/pcbradley/NewGallery2.htm
    Flickr pages at http://www.flickr.com/photos/pcbradley
     
    PcB, Jan 23, 2006
    #4
  5. LOP

    Prometheus Guest

    In article <P49Bf.12231$Me5.3988@trnddc05>, Jeremy <>
    writes
    >
    >"LOP" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >>I am looking for a digital camera with about 3MP resolution. I would like
    >>to generate 640X480 pictures in TIFF format. There is an additional
    >>requirement that this camera have no mechanical shutter or mirror. I
    >>thought that the Olympus D-575 was going to do the job but it apparently
    >>will not generate TIFF files for the 640X480 format.
    >>
    >> Looking for recomendations, Don and Liz

    >
    >I never paid it much thought, but wouldn't ANY camera that displays the
    >image on an LCD screen prior to snapping it (that leaves out DSLRs) have no
    >mechanical shutter? If there were a closed shutter behind the lens, how
    >could one see the image on the LCD screen?
    >

    Many P&S do have a mechanical shutter that is closed just before taking
    a picture to allow the CCD to be flushed and afterwards for read-out. I
    suspect that the OP wants a minimum of noise, perhaps one of the very
    small matchbox sizes toys will omit this capping shutter for cost &
    power reasons, although it is unlikely to produce TIFF files.
    --
    Ian G8ILZ
     
    Prometheus, Jan 23, 2006
    #5
  6. LOP

    salgud Guest

    Jeremy wrote:
    > "LOP" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > >I am looking for a digital camera with about 3MP resolution. I would like
    > >to generate 640X480 pictures in TIFF format. There is an additional
    > >requirement that this camera have no mechanical shutter or mirror. I
    > >thought that the Olympus D-575 was going to do the job but it apparently
    > >will not generate TIFF files for the 640X480 format.
    > >
    > > Looking for recomendations, Don and Liz

    >
    > I never paid it much thought, but wouldn't ANY camera that displays the
    > image on an LCD screen prior to snapping it (that leaves out DSLRs) have no
    > mechanical shutter? If there were a closed shutter behind the lens, how
    > could one see the image on the LCD screen?


    Most P&S cameras, like my Canon A520, are rangefinder cameras. The view
    you see in the LCD is through a separte lens, not the picture taking
    lens. Therefore, they display the image the all the time (if the LCD is
    on), before, during and after the pic is taken.
     
    salgud, Jan 23, 2006
    #6
  7. LOP

    Jeremy Guest

    "salgud" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > Jeremy wrote:
    >> "LOP" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >> >I am looking for a digital camera with about 3MP resolution. I would
    >> >like
    >> >to generate 640X480 pictures in TIFF format. There is an additional
    >> >requirement that this camera have no mechanical shutter or mirror. I
    >> >thought that the Olympus D-575 was going to do the job but it apparently
    >> >will not generate TIFF files for the 640X480 format.
    >> >
    >> > Looking for recomendations, Don and Liz

    >>
    >> I never paid it much thought, but wouldn't ANY camera that displays the
    >> image on an LCD screen prior to snapping it (that leaves out DSLRs) have
    >> no
    >> mechanical shutter? If there were a closed shutter behind the lens, how
    >> could one see the image on the LCD screen?

    >
    > Most P&S cameras, like my Canon A520, are rangefinder cameras. The view
    > you see in the LCD is through a separte lens, not the picture taking
    > lens. Therefore, they display the image the all the time (if the LCD is
    > on), before, during and after the pic is taken.
    >


    Separate lens? Just where are these "separate lenses?"
     
    Jeremy, Jan 23, 2006
    #7
  8. LOP

    Jeremy Guest

    "PcB" <pcbradley@no_spam_lineone.net> wrote in message
    news:CL9Bf.108132$...
    > "Jeremy" <> wrote in message
    > news:p49Bf.12231$Me5.3988@trnddc05...
    >>
    >> "LOP" <> wrote in message
    >> news:...
    >>>I am looking for a digital camera with about 3MP resolution. I would like
    >>>to generate 640X480 pictures in TIFF format. There is an additional
    >>>requirement that this camera have no mechanical shutter or mirror. I
    >>>thought that the Olympus D-575 was going to do the job but it apparently
    >>>will not generate TIFF files for the 640X480 format.
    >>>
    >>> Looking for recomendations, Don and Liz

    >>
    >> I never paid it much thought, but wouldn't ANY camera that displays the
    >> image on an LCD screen prior to snapping it (that leaves out DSLRs) have
    >> no mechanical shutter? If there were a closed shutter behind the lens,
    >> how could one see the image on the LCD screen?
    >>

    > IIRC the shutter is open for the preview, then closes before the sensor
    > buffer is flushed. Once the buffer is flushed the shutter opens for the
    > required time and then the buffer is read for the exposure.
    >
    > I guess this explains the shutter lag.
    >


    So that's how it is done . . .!
     
    Jeremy, Jan 23, 2006
    #8
  9. LOP

    salgud Guest

    Jeremy wrote:
    > "salgud" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > >
    > > Jeremy wrote:
    > >> "LOP" <> wrote in message
    > >> news:...
    > >> >I am looking for a digital camera with about 3MP resolution. I would
    > >> >like
    > >> >to generate 640X480 pictures in TIFF format. There is an additional
    > >> >requirement that this camera have no mechanical shutter or mirror. I
    > >> >thought that the Olympus D-575 was going to do the job but it apparently
    > >> >will not generate TIFF files for the 640X480 format.
    > >> >
    > >> > Looking for recomendations, Don and Liz
    > >>
    > >> I never paid it much thought, but wouldn't ANY camera that displays the
    > >> image on an LCD screen prior to snapping it (that leaves out DSLRs) have
    > >> no
    > >> mechanical shutter? If there were a closed shutter behind the lens, how
    > >> could one see the image on the LCD screen?

    > >
    > > Most P&S cameras, like my Canon A520, are rangefinder cameras. The view
    > > you see in the LCD is through a separte lens, not the picture taking
    > > lens. Therefore, they display the image the all the time (if the LCD is
    > > on), before, during and after the pic is taken.
    > >

    >
    > Separate lens? Just where are these "separate lenses?"


    It's not really a true, lens, just a viewfinder. Look where the
    viewfinder is in back, that's where it'll be in front.
     
    salgud, Jan 23, 2006
    #9
  10. "salgud" <> writes:

    > Most P&S cameras, like my Canon A520, are rangefinder cameras. The view
    > you see in the LCD is through a separte lens, not the picture taking
    > lens. Therefore, they display the image the all the time (if the LCD is
    > on), before, during and after the pic is taken.


    I'm sorry to say that this is incorrect. Point and Shoot digital cameras
    may have an optical viewfinder which you can peer through to take a picture
    in addition to showing the view on the LCD. The view on the LCD is through
    the same lens that will be used to take the picture, not a separate
    lens. The view on the LCD is frozen after the exposure while the CCD
    captures the image and it is written to whatever device is used to save the
    file. Then the LCD becomes 'live' again, showing what the CCD is capturing
    as you wave the camera around.

    If the camera has a viewfinder, you may use it at all times to see
    generally where the camera is pointing (with some parallax error since the
    viewfinder is not seeing through the lens used to take the picture).

    --
    Phil Stripling | email to the replyto address is presumed
    The Civilized Explorer | spam and read later. email from this URL
    http://www.cieux.com/ | http://www.civex.com/ is read daily.
     
    Phil Stripling, Jan 23, 2006
    #10
  11. "LOP" <> writes:

    > There is an additional requirement
    > that this camera have no mechanical shutter or mirror.


    I have a Nikon FM2n, which is one of the few (maybe the only) remaining
    lines of cameras which have mechanical shutters. It is mechanical because
    it does not use batteries or other electrical source to trigger the shutter
    and to set its length of time for opening.

    That's what I think a mechanical shutter is. Under my definition, no
    digital camera has a mechanical shutter.

    The only digital cameras taht have a mirror are called DLSRs - Digital
    Single Lens Reflex cameras. If my understanding is correct, no point and
    shoot camera will have a mirror. As a quick check, because DSLRs have the
    mirror in front of the CCD, DSLRs never have 'live' CCDs with the view seen
    through the lens. Therefore, the LCD on the back of the camera is blank
    until an image has been taken. You must look through the viewfinder to
    compose your shot; you may not compose it with the LCD on the back of the
    camera.
    --
    Phil Stripling | email to the replyto address is presumed
    The Civilized Explorer | spam and read later. email from this URL
    http://www.cieux.com/ | http://www.civex.com/ is read daily.
     
    Phil Stripling, Jan 23, 2006
    #11
  12. LOP

    Paul Rubin Guest

    Phil Stripling <> writes:
    > I have a Nikon FM2n, which is one of the few (maybe the only) remaining
    > lines of cameras which have mechanical shutters. It is mechanical because
    > it does not use batteries or other electrical source to trigger the shutter
    > and to set its length of time for opening.
    >
    > That's what I think a mechanical shutter is. Under my definition, no
    > digital camera has a mechanical shutter.


    By the more conventional definition, a mechanical shutter is one that
    physically opens and shuts to expose the image. The FM2n's mechanical
    shutter is controlled by a mechanical timer. Other mechanical
    shutters like the ones in DSLR's are controlled by electronic timers.
    The shutter itself is still mechanical.

    Would you say that a gasoline powered car engine is not mechanical,
    and the people who fix them are not mechanics? ;-)
     
    Paul Rubin, Jan 23, 2006
    #12
  13. LOP

    Mark B. Guest

    "LOP" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I am looking for a digital camera with about 3MP resolution. I would like
    >to generate 640X480 pictures in TIFF format. There is an additional
    >requirement that this camera have no mechanical shutter or mirror. I
    >thought that the Olympus D-575 was going to do the job but it apparently
    >will not generate TIFF files for the 640X480 format.
    >
    > Looking for recomendations, Don and Liz


    I don't know of any P&S that generates a TIFF smaller than it's native
    resolution. Generally a 3mp cam that can save as TIFF will save a 3mp TIFF.
    Why not save at the highest quality jpeg and convert to TIFF? Going down
    from 3mp to 307k I doubt you'll notice any degradation.

    Mark
     
    Mark B., Jan 23, 2006
    #13
  14. LOP

    Prometheus Guest

    In article <>, Paul Rubin
    <http@?.cx.invalid> writes
    >Phil Stripling <> writes:
    >> I have a Nikon FM2n, which is one of the few (maybe the only) remaining
    >> lines of cameras which have mechanical shutters. It is mechanical because
    >> it does not use batteries or other electrical source to trigger the shutter
    >> and to set its length of time for opening.
    >>
    >> That's what I think a mechanical shutter is. Under my definition, no
    >> digital camera has a mechanical shutter.

    >
    >By the more conventional definition, a mechanical shutter is one that
    >physically opens and shuts to expose the image. The FM2n's mechanical
    >shutter is controlled by a mechanical timer. Other mechanical
    >shutters like the ones in DSLR's are controlled by electronic timers.
    >The shutter itself is still mechanical.
    >
    >Would you say that a gasoline powered car engine is not mechanical,
    >and the people who fix them are not mechanics? ;-)


    Probably not if the ignition generation and timing are electronic.
    --
    Ian G8ILZ
     
    Prometheus, Jan 23, 2006
    #14
  15. Paul Rubin <http://> writes:

    > Phil Stripling <> writes:
    > > I have a Nikon FM2n, which is one of the few (maybe the only) remaining
    > > lines of cameras which have mechanical shutters. It is mechanical because
    > > it does not use batteries or other electrical source to trigger the shutter
    > > and to set its length of time for opening.
    > >
    > > That's what I think a mechanical shutter is. Under my definition, no
    > > digital camera has a mechanical shutter.

    >
    > By the more conventional definition, a mechanical shutter is one that
    > physically opens and shuts to expose the image. The FM2n's mechanical
    > shutter is controlled by a mechanical timer. Other mechanical
    > shutters like the ones in DSLR's are controlled by electronic timers.
    > The shutter itself is still mechanical.


    Importing the general definition from outside photography, you're
    right.

    But for the last 20 or 30 years, cameras have had either "mechanical"
    or "electronic" shutters, referring to the control/timing mechanism.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, <mailto:>, <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/>
    RKBA: <http://noguns-nomoney.com/> <http://www.dd-b.net/carry/>
    Pics: <http://dd-b.lighthunters.net/> <http://www.dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/>
    Dragaera/Steven Brust: <http://dragaera.info/>
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Jan 23, 2006
    #15
  16. Paul Rubin <http://> writes:

    > Would you say that a gasoline powered car engine is not mechanical,
    > and the people who fix them are not mechanics? ;-)


    Go to
    http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20060122.html
    Go directly to
    http://www.dilbert.com/comics/dilbert/archive/dilbert-20060122.html
    do not pass go, do not collect $200.
    --
    Phil Stripling | email to the replyto address is presumed
    The Civilized Explorer | spam and read later. email from this URL
    http://www.cieux.com/ | http://www.civex.com/ is read daily.
     
    Phil Stripling, Jan 23, 2006
    #16
  17. LOP

    LOP Guest

    OK Group members, I will try to start this again. Most point and shoot
    digital cameras have a mechanical shutter. Mostly to protect the CCD from
    being exposed to direct sunlight. The Olympus D-575 is "all electronic",
    with no mechanical shutters used.

    My application will take 5000 frames in about 2 hours and do this over and
    over again. Most mechanical shutters are rated to a maximum of 50 to 60
    thousand operations before failure. Many cameras fail sooner than this. My
    camera will be used in a fixed application with all of the functions set
    just once.

    As far as JPEG compressions goes I do not want to have any compression until
    I can examine the frames in the computer. I will then do any corrections
    that are required and then convert to JPEG. You cannot convert JPEG or any
    compressed format back to TIFF as far as I know. ( and maintain all of the
    data from the original frame)

    Thanks for all the inputs but I am looking for a digital camera suggestion
    that has no mechanical shutter, and TIFF capability in the 640X480 format.

    Don and Liz



    ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
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    LOP, Jan 24, 2006
    #17
  18. LOP

    Paul Rubin Guest

    "LOP" <> writes:
    > As far as JPEG compressions goes I do not want to have any compression until
    > I can examine the frames in the computer. I will then do any corrections
    > that are required and then convert to JPEG. You cannot convert JPEG or any
    > compressed format back to TIFF as far as I know. ( and maintain all of the
    > data from the original frame)


    By the time the camera has converted the ccd image to tiff and
    exported it from the camera, you've already lost data from the
    original frame. JPEG is probably not that much worse. Unless there's
    some concrete practical problem with using them jpeg data (as opposed
    to a philosophical problem) I wouldn't let it be an obstacle. If you
    really need the raw ccd data, you need RAW, not TIFF.
     
    Paul Rubin, Jan 24, 2006
    #18
  19. LOP

    rafe b Guest

    On Mon, 23 Jan 2006 17:16:48 -0800, "LOP" <>
    wrote:

    >OK Group members, I will try to start this again. Most point and shoot
    >digital cameras have a mechanical shutter. Mostly to protect the CCD from
    >being exposed to direct sunlight. The Olympus D-575 is "all electronic",
    >with no mechanical shutters used.
    >
    >My application will take 5000 frames in about 2 hours and do this over and
    >over again. Most mechanical shutters are rated to a maximum of 50 to 60
    >thousand operations before failure. Many cameras fail sooner than this. My
    >camera will be used in a fixed application with all of the functions set
    >just once.
    >
    >As far as JPEG compressions goes I do not want to have any compression until
    >I can examine the frames in the computer. I will then do any corrections
    >that are required and then convert to JPEG. You cannot convert JPEG or any
    >compressed format back to TIFF as far as I know. ( and maintain all of the
    >data from the original frame)
    >
    >Thanks for all the inputs but I am looking for a digital camera suggestion
    >that has no mechanical shutter, and TIFF capability in the 640X480 format.



    1. As far as I know there's no mechanical shutter in my Canon G2.
    Certainly none that I can feel or hear. My thinking on this is
    identical to Jeremy's, in his first reply to your first query.

    There's nothing in this camera that will prevent you from aiming
    it directly at the sun, and nothing to protect the CCD if you do.

    If there's a shutter in the G2, I'd be very surprised.

    2. Why TIF? I mean, why not RAW? RAW is completely lossless.
    TIF does not really make much sense for internal storage in
    any digicam.

    Anyway... the shutter question is vaguely interesting, but on
    the need for TIF, it seems to me your request isn't quite
    reasonable, unless I'm misunderstanding you.


    rafe b
    www.terrapinphoto.com
     
    rafe b, Jan 24, 2006
    #19
  20. LOP

    Pat Guest

    Wow, not that's a demanding scenario!

    I am guessing that this must be for some kind of commercial/technical
    application (this isn't watching the grandkids play baseball) so maybe
    you have a budget to work with, because I think you'll need it.

    I would investigate 2 possibilities. First, maybe you can find a video
    camera that has software that'll allow you to trigger individual frames
    every second or so. You would then have to de-interlace and everything
    so it would be a bit of a mess. Maybe someone in this group or a video
    group would have some ideas about cameras and software.

    The other option would to go high-end. I think the new Hasselblad
    digital is rated at 1 frame every 1.2 second and will fire keep going
    for about forever. I don't own one, but I think it would take that
    kind of use/abuse. Of course, the camera is on the wrong side of
    $10,000. Maybe you can rent one if you only need it for a single
    project or something. At 1 frame every 1.2 seconds, it would put out
    about 6000 frames in 2 hours. I think they come with a on-board 40 gig
    or 80 gig hard drive.
     
    Pat, Jan 24, 2006
    #20
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