Nikon mount Zeiss lens resolves 320 lp/mm

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by deryck lant, Mar 2, 2006.

  1. deryck  lant

    deryck lant Guest

    deryck lant, Mar 2, 2006
    #1
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  2. deryck  lant

    Guest

    , Mar 2, 2006
    #2
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  3. "deryck lant" <> wrote:
    > http://www.zeiss.com/c12567a8003b58b9/contents-frame/098729cea9ef2428c1257118005d1d20
    >
    > Planar T F1.4 50mm ZF 500 EUR
    >
    > The Planar T F1.4 85mm ZF 1000 EUR resolves 250 lp/mm
    >
    > Available April 1st and they are very affordable.


    What a snore. There are no films or sensors in production that resolve
    anywhere close to that. All that wasted resolution does is aggravate Moiré
    in your dSLR.

    And twice the price of a lens that's just as good in real life isn't "very
    affordable".

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
     
    David J. Littleboy, Mar 2, 2006
    #3
  4. deryck  lant

    Guest

    David J. Littleboy wrote:
    > All that wasted resolution does is aggravate Moiré
    > in your dSLR.


    Zeiss wouldn't have done such a shot-in-the-foot, for the following 2
    reasons :
    - the press release says "resolve" 320lp/mm, it doesn't specify whether
    the MTF is 2 or 4% at this resolution ;oP.
    - I'm not really involved in that field (but I'd like and you are
    welcome to send me all the zillions dollars you want to support my
    personal knowledge and research in this area), but the only DSLR
    without AA-filter should be the not-very-common Kodak DCSPro14n?

    But saying that it is not a real problem doesn't imply it is one great
    step beyond anyway ;oPPP.
     
    , Mar 2, 2006
    #4
  5. deryck  lant

    deryck lant Guest

    The message <du6jet$2um$>
    from "David J. Littleboy" <> contains these words:

    > "deryck lant" <> wrote:
    > > http://www.zeiss.com/c12567a8003b58b9/contents-frame/098729cea9ef2428c1257118005d1d20
    > >
    > > Planar T F1.4 50mm ZF 500 EUR
    > >
    > > The Planar T F1.4 85mm ZF 1000 EUR resolves 250 lp/mm
    > >
    > > Available April 1st and they are very affordable.


    > What a snore. There are no films or sensors in production that resolve
    > anywhere close to that. All that wasted resolution does is aggravate Moiré
    > in your dSLR.


    > And twice the price of a lens that's just as good in real life isn't "very
    > affordable".


    Film was used to test the Nikon F6 camera. Future Nikon DX sensors will
    be extremely high res.

    In the Uk the discount price for the Nikkor f1.4 50mm is 220UKP the f1.4
    85mm is 800UKP.

    Take your misinformation elseware. You pollute the newsgroups.

    Deryck
     
    deryck lant, Mar 2, 2006
    #5
  6. In article <du6jet$2um$>,
    David J. Littleboy <> wrote:
    >"deryck lant" <> wrote:
    >> http://www.zeiss.com/c12567a8003b58b9/contents-frame/098729cea9ef2428c1257118005d1d20
    >>
    >> Planar T F1.4 50mm ZF 500 EUR
    >>
    >> The Planar T F1.4 85mm ZF 1000 EUR resolves 250 lp/mm
    >>
    >> Available April 1st and they are very affordable.

    >
    >What a snore. There are no films or sensors in production that resolve
    >anywhere close to that. All that wasted resolution does is aggravate Moiré
    >in your dSLR.


    First some people claim that a D2X is a problem because diffraction kicks
    in a f/8 and then producing high quality lenses don't matter anymore
    because some people want to take picture of fabrics (and other man made
    objects).

    >And twice the price of a lens that's just as good in real life isn't "very
    >affordable".


    Well, I think 500 euro for a new high quality lens is very affordable.
    I often pay more than 500 euro for second hand lenses.

    The Nikon 85/1.4 is more than 1000 euro, so don't any problem there.


    --
    That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
    could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
    by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
     
    Philip Homburg, Mar 2, 2006
    #6
  7. deryck  lant

    deryck lant Guest

    The message <lda8tehfn07km01lr9m0rmujd0@inews_id.stereo.hq.phicoh.net>
    from (Philip Homburg) contains these words:

    > In article <du6jet$2um$>,
    > David J. Littleboy <> wrote:
    > >"deryck lant" <> wrote:
    > >> http://www.zeiss.com/c12567a8003b58b9/contents-frame/098729cea9ef2428c1257118005d1d20
    > >>
    > >> Planar T F1.4 50mm ZF 500 EUR
    > >>
    > >> The Planar T F1.4 85mm ZF 1000 EUR resolves 250 lp/mm
    > >>
    > >> Available April 1st and they are very affordable.

    > >
    > >What a snore. There are no films or sensors in production that resolve
    > >anywhere close to that. All that wasted resolution does is aggravate Moiré
    > >in your dSLR.


    > First some people claim that a D2X is a problem because diffraction kicks
    > in a f/8 and then producing high quality lenses don't matter anymore
    > because some people want to take picture of fabrics (and other man made
    > objects).


    I have no loss of resolution with my D2X at f8 with my Nikkor prime lenses.
    For landscape photography I can use all the resolution I can get.

    > >And twice the price of a lens that's just as good in real life isn't "very
    > >affordable".


    > Well, I think 500 euro for a new high quality lens is very affordable.
    > I often pay more than 500 euro for second hand lenses.


    > The Nikon 85/1.4 is more than 1000 euro, so don't any problem there.


    There is mention of a 10 blade iris. They sound very desirable lenses.
    The wideangles should be stunning.


    Deryck
     
    deryck lant, Mar 2, 2006
    #7
  8. deryck  lant

    Bill Funk Guest

    On 2 Mar 2006 03:53:44 -0800, wrote:

    >
    >David J. Littleboy wrote:
    >> All that wasted resolution does is aggravate Moiré
    >> in your dSLR.

    >
    >Zeiss wouldn't have done such a shot-in-the-foot, for the following 2
    >reasons :
    >- the press release says "resolve" 320lp/mm, it doesn't specify whether
    >the MTF is 2 or 4% at this resolution ;oP.
    >- I'm not really involved in that field (but I'd like and you are
    >welcome to send me all the zillions dollars you want to support my
    >personal knowledge and research in this area), but the only DSLR
    >without AA-filter should be the not-very-common Kodak DCSPro14n?


    The Sigma SDx cameras don't have AA filters.
    >
    >But saying that it is not a real problem doesn't imply it is one great
    >step beyond anyway ;oPPP.


    --
    Bill Funk
    replace "g" with "a"
     
    Bill Funk, Mar 2, 2006
    #8
  9. deryck  lant

    Alfred Molon Guest

    In article <>,
    says...

    > - the press release says "resolve" 320lp/mm, it doesn't specify whether
    > the MTF is 2 or 4% at this resolution ;oP.


    Exactly. If you look at this chart:
    http://tinyurl.com/qttl7

    already at 40 lp/mm the MTF is below 40%. At 320 lp/mm it will probably
    be fractions of a %.
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 50X0, 7070, 8080, E300, E330 and E500 forum at
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    Olympus E500 resource - http://myolympus.org/E500/
     
    Alfred Molon, Mar 2, 2006
    #9
  10. deryck  lant

    W (winhag) Guest

    I'd love to see a standout 50mm for Canon like that. I own the (Canon)
    50mm 1.4 and the 100mm 2.8 macro.
    The 50mm is quite a good lens but I can definately say from my
    experience (film and 20D) that the 100mm
    is better. (Better=less CA, more detail, and the images just look
    better in a way that is not obviously measurable by the standard
    tests-probably a combination of low distortion, low flare etc. etc.).
    So I think there is room to improve on the Canon 50mm 1.4 and I would
    love to see if Zeiss is the ticket.

    deryck lant wrote:
    > The message <lda8tehfn07km01lr9m0rmujd0@inews_id.stereo.hq.phicoh.net>
    > from (Philip Homburg) contains these words:
    >
    > > In article <du6jet$2um$>,
    > > David J. Littleboy <> wrote:
    > > >"deryck lant" <> wrote:
    > > >> http://www.zeiss.com/c12567a8003b58b9/contents-frame/098729cea9ef2428c1257118005d1d20
    > > >>
    > > >> Planar T F1.4 50mm ZF 500 EUR
    > > >>
    > > >> The Planar T F1.4 85mm ZF 1000 EUR resolves 250 lp/mm
    > > >>
    > > >> Available April 1st and they are very affordable.
    > > >
    > > >What a snore. There are no films or sensors in production that resolve
    > > >anywhere close to that. All that wasted resolution does is aggravate Moiré
    > > >in your dSLR.

    >
    > > First some people claim that a D2X is a problem because diffraction kicks
    > > in a f/8 and then producing high quality lenses don't matter anymore
    > > because some people want to take picture of fabrics (and other man made
    > > objects).

    >
    > I have no loss of resolution with my D2X at f8 with my Nikkor prime lenses.
    > For landscape photography I can use all the resolution I can get.
    >
    > > >And twice the price of a lens that's just as good in real life isn't "very
    > > >affordable".

    >
    > > Well, I think 500 euro for a new high quality lens is very affordable.
    > > I often pay more than 500 euro for second hand lenses.

    >
    > > The Nikon 85/1.4 is more than 1000 euro, so don't any problem there.

    >
    > There is mention of a 10 blade iris. They sound very desirable lenses.
    > The wideangles should be stunning.
    >
    >
    > Deryck
     
    W (winhag), Mar 2, 2006
    #10
  11. deryck  lant

    deryck lant Guest

    The message <>
    from Alfred Molon <> contains these words:

    > In article <>,
    > says...


    > > - the press release says "resolve" 320lp/mm, it doesn't specify whether
    > > the MTF is 2 or 4% at this resolution ;oP.


    > Exactly. If you look at this chart:
    > http://tinyurl.com/qttl7


    > already at 40 lp/mm the MTF is below 40%. At 320 lp/mm it will probably
    > be fractions of a %.
    > --


    Thats at f1.4. At f5.6 it hits 80%.

    Deryck
     
    deryck lant, Mar 2, 2006
    #11
  12. deryck  lant

    SimonLW Guest

    "deryck lant" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > The message <>
    > from Alfred Molon <> contains these words:
    >
    >> In article <>,
    >> says...

    >
    >> > - the press release says "resolve" 320lp/mm, it doesn't specify whether
    >> > the MTF is 2 or 4% at this resolution ;oP.

    >
    >> Exactly. If you look at this chart:
    >> http://tinyurl.com/qttl7

    >
    >> already at 40 lp/mm the MTF is below 40%. At 320 lp/mm it will probably
    >> be fractions of a %.
    >> --

    >
    > Thats at f1.4. At f5.6 it hits 80%.
    >
    > Deryck


    but still... Sounds like a numbers game. Just like the compressor and saw
    motors that can run off a 15 amp 120 volt circuit and be rated 3 horsepower.
    Bunk! It is an outright lie or they are playing with the numbers like
    testing the motor under high stress conditions.
    S
     
    SimonLW, Mar 2, 2006
    #12
  13. deryck  lant

    deryck lant Guest

    The message <>
    from "SimonLW" <> contains these words:


    > "deryck lant" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > The message <>
    > > from Alfred Molon <> contains these words:
    > >
    > >> In article <>,
    > >> says...

    > >
    > >> > - the press release says "resolve" 320lp/mm, it doesn't specify whether
    > >> > the MTF is 2 or 4% at this resolution ;oP.

    > >
    > >> Exactly. If you look at this chart:
    > >> http://tinyurl.com/qttl7

    > >
    > >> already at 40 lp/mm the MTF is below 40%. At 320 lp/mm it will probably
    > >> be fractions of a %.
    > >> --

    > >
    > > Thats at f1.4. At f5.6 it hits 80%.
    > >
    > > Deryck


    > but still... Sounds like a numbers game. Just like the compressor and saw
    > motors that can run off a 15 amp 120 volt circuit and be rated 3
    > horsepower.
    > Bunk! It is an outright lie or they are playing with the numbers like
    > testing the motor under high stress conditions.


    The Zeiss test was entirely optical. As their web site states:

    "The resolution test chart was placed in the center of the frame, and
    the negatives were inspected directly on a research microscope. No other
    process involving projection (through even the best enlarging lens) or
    digitizing (in today's best currently available scanners) is capable of
    transferring such high resolution values."

    Deryck
     
    deryck lant, Mar 2, 2006
    #13
  14. deryck  lant

    Rich Guest

    On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 20:03:33 +0900, "David J. Littleboy"
    <> wrote:

    >"deryck lant" <> wrote:
    >> http://www.zeiss.com/c12567a8003b58b9/contents-frame/098729cea9ef2428c1257118005d1d20
    >>
    >> Planar T F1.4 50mm ZF 500 EUR
    >>
    >> The Planar T F1.4 85mm ZF 1000 EUR resolves 250 lp/mm
    >>
    >> Available April 1st and they are very affordable.

    >
    >What a snore. There are no films or sensors in production that resolve
    >anywhere close to that. All that wasted resolution does is aggravate Moiré
    >in your dSLR.
    >
    >And twice the price of a lens that's just as good in real life isn't "very
    >affordable".
    >
    >David J. Littleboy
    >Tokyo, Japan
    >


    What was the whine we heard from the FF crowd? "What if Canon
    goes all FF and the crop lenses you buy are then useless?"
    Same thing here. Maybe sensors could appear that do have the
    resolution of the lenses?
    -Rich
     
    Rich, Mar 2, 2006
    #14
  15. deryck  lant

    W (winhag) Guest

    In addition there are so many issues. The resolution is at center. What
    about the resolution across the field?. Plus other lens
    characteristics. I'm a believer in the more choices you have the
    better!

    Rich wrote:
    > On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 20:03:33 +0900, "David J. Littleboy"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >"deryck lant" <> wrote:
    > >> http://www.zeiss.com/c12567a8003b58b9/contents-frame/098729cea9ef2428c1257118005d1d20
    > >>
    > >> Planar T F1.4 50mm ZF 500 EUR
    > >>
    > >> The Planar T F1.4 85mm ZF 1000 EUR resolves 250 lp/mm
    > >>
    > >> Available April 1st and they are very affordable.

    > >
    > >What a snore. There are no films or sensors in production that resolve
    > >anywhere close to that. All that wasted resolution does is aggravate Moiré
    > >in your dSLR.
    > >
    > >And twice the price of a lens that's just as good in real life isn't "very
    > >affordable".
    > >
    > >David J. Littleboy
    > >Tokyo, Japan
    > >

    >
    > What was the whine we heard from the FF crowd? "What if Canon
    > goes all FF and the crop lenses you buy are then useless?"
    > Same thing here. Maybe sensors could appear that do have the
    > resolution of the lenses?
    > -Rich
     
    W (winhag), Mar 2, 2006
    #15
  16. deryck  lant

    Alfred Molon Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > In addition there are so many issues. The resolution is at center. What
    > about the resolution across the field?. Plus other lens
    > characteristics. I'm a believer in the more choices you have the
    > better!


    According to the MTF charts the resolution is "relatively" stable until
    about 20mm from the centre (at F1.4 and F5.6, between 10 and 40 lp/mm).
    Which is not too bad (although the MTF charts say nothing about the
    resolution beyond 40 lp/mm - I wonder why).
    --

    Alfred Molon
    ------------------------------
    Olympus 50X0, 7070, 8080, E300, E330 and E500 forum at
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/MyOlympus/
    Olympus E500 resource - http://myolympus.org/E500/
     
    Alfred Molon, Mar 3, 2006
    #16
  17. Rich wrote:
    >> On Thu, 2 Mar 2006 20:03:33 +0900, "David J. Littleboy"
    >> <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>> What a snore. There are no films or sensors in production that
    >>> resolve anywhere close to that. All that wasted resolution does is
    >>> aggravate Moiré in your dSLR.
    >>>
    >>> And twice the price of a lens that's just as good in real life
    >>> isn't "very affordable".
    >>>
    >>> David J. Littleboy
    >>> Tokyo, Japan
    >>>

    >>
    >> What was the whine we heard from the FF crowd? "What if Canon
    >> goes all FF and the crop lenses you buy are then useless?"
    >> Same thing here. Maybe sensors could appear that do have the
    >> resolution of the lenses?
    >> -Rich


    You know the Littleboy routine by now Rich...
    Pay peanuts, get monkeys.
    Crap in = crap out.
    No point in buying a $1000 lens if a $200 one is available.

    Every experienced Photographer in the world knows the difference between
    multiplier\zoom factor and crop factor except him. Why then would you expect
    him to comprehend the value of such a lens? It was proven in Television
    cameras 20 years ago that lenses which resolve more than the tubes could,
    still produced better pictures. This lens is forward looking. No doubt Zeiss
    expect sensors in the future to be able to handle this sort of resolution or
    maybe they just know that the value of better quality is understood by their
    target market?
     
    Tropical Treat, Mar 3, 2006
    #17
  18. deryck  lant

    Guest

    Bill Funk wrote:
    > The Sigma SDx cameras don't have AA filters.


    Thanks for pointing them out, I forgot them!

    Nicolas, still curious to know what "resolves" means in terms of MTF
    anyway
     
    , Mar 3, 2006
    #18
  19. "Tropical Treat" <> wrote in message
    news:SEMNf.533$...
    SNIP
    > This lens is forward looking. No doubt Zeiss expect sensors in
    > the future to be able to handle this sort of resolution or maybe
    > they just know that the value of better quality is understood by
    > their target market?


    What is useful in analog imaging, high modulation at high spatial
    frequencies, is probably not very helpful in sampled imaging. Sampled
    imaging has a physical resolution limit imposed by the sampling
    density. A good lens design would favor higher MTFs below that so
    called Nyquist frequency rather than a lower MTF but higher resolution
    beyond Nyquist, it's a typical trade-off. The higher the modulation at
    or beyond the Nyquist frequency (behind Anti-Aliasing filter), the
    higher the chance of Aliasing artifacts.

    Very dense sampling sensors (e.g. 2.5 micron sensel pitch) can be
    found in P/S cameras at the expense of having noise issues. The
    Nyquist frequency of such a sensor is e.g. 200 cycles (~linepairs) per
    millimeter. It is unlikely that for the better quality cameras that
    typically have sensel pitches of 6 micron and higher, which would mean
    83 cycles/mm and lower Nyquist frequencies, such very high lens
    resolution bring any benefit.

    So unless photon shot statistics can be changed, there is no benefit
    for a lens to resolve much more than some 80 cycles/mm with high MTF,
    quite on the contrary. High MTF for lower spatial frequencies is what
    does matter, and that usually means lower MTF for extreme resolution.

    Bart
     
    Bart van der Wolf, Mar 3, 2006
    #19
  20. <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > Bill Funk wrote:
    >> The Sigma SDx cameras don't have AA filters.

    >
    > Thanks for pointing them out, I forgot them!
    >
    > Nicolas, still curious to know what "resolves" means in terms of MTF
    > anyway


    In the ISO standards it is mentioned that a modulation of 10%
    correlates quite well with limiting visual resolution. In practice
    that would mean that e.g. details with 10:1 contrast would be at the
    brink of being visually resolved, because approx. 1% is the luminance
    limit of visual resolution detection under a given level of ambient
    lighting. Lower contrast detail would be lost at lower spatial
    frequencies already, and higher contrast detail would be easier to
    visually resolve.

    If the Nyquist frequency still has a higher modulation than 10%, then
    that spatial frequency is taken as the limit because there is no true
    resolution beyond that limit in discrete sampled imaging, only
    aliasing.

    Bart
     
    Bart van der Wolf, Mar 3, 2006
    #20
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