Nikon DX and lenses Full frame

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by surf_doggie, Jun 24, 2007.

  1. surf_doggie

    surf_doggie Guest

    Does anyone have any feed back on whether Nikon will go FF with its
    cameras (dx2 excluded). I just bought a 105 micro with vr that is for
    full frame cameras and am looking at the 17-55 2.8 which is DX.

    I must say I dont understand why they manufacture a new 105 micro that
    is a FF lense and a 17-55 that is a 1,200 DX lense. Anyone have any
    sense what direction they are going with APS-C or Full frame?

    Ill be really hot if I buy a 1200 dollar lense and in 3 years its
    useless because they have change to FF for there prosumer cameras.

    Earl
     
    surf_doggie, Jun 24, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. "surf_doggie" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Does anyone have any feed back on whether Nikon will go FF with its
    > cameras (dx2 excluded). I just bought a 105 micro with vr that is for
    > full frame cameras and am looking at the 17-55 2.8 which is DX.


    One recent and reasonable-sounding rumor is that Nikon will bring out an SLR
    that's *close* to full frame, about a 1.1x lens factor. That should be close
    enough for all practical purposes, and still help with the (possibly only
    theoretical) loss of performance in the corners that FF sensors are said to
    have.

    >
    > I must say I dont understand why they manufacture a new 105 micro that
    > is a FF lense and a 17-55 that is a 1,200 DX lense.


    Probably because for a lens of that type, 105mm macro, it's just as easy to
    make it for FF as for the smaller format. And of course there still are
    people using 35mm. Not so many, admittedly, but Nikon 35s move briskly on
    eBay when the price is right.


    > Anyone have any
    > sense what direction they are going with APS-C or Full frame?
    >
    > Ill be really hot if I buy a 1200 dollar lense and in 3 years its
    > useless because they have change to FF for there prosumer cameras.


    I think it's *very* unlikely that they will ever change to FF for such
    cameras, since the DX cameras already have more than enough image
    capabilities for at least 99% of all real-world mortal users. DX will always
    be less expensive to manufacture, and therefore is here to stay. The near-FF
    Nikon, when and if it does materialize, will be for that fraction of 1% of
    users who think it's of some benefit to them and who can afford to pay for
    it whether it is or not.

    Neil
     
    Neil Harrington, Jun 24, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. surf_doggie wrote:

    > Does anyone have any feed back on whether Nikon will go FF with its
    > cameras (dx2 excluded). I just bought a 105 micro with vr that is for
    > full frame cameras and am looking at the 17-55 2.8 which is DX.


    Get the 17-35/2.8 since it is a much better lens.

    > I must say I dont understand why they manufacture a new 105 micro that
    > is a FF lense and a 17-55 that is a 1,200 DX lense. Anyone have any
    > sense what direction they are going with APS-C or Full frame?


    If you wan't full frame you'll have to get an adapter for your Nikkors and a
    Canon 5D. Did I mention that the 17-35/2.8 Nikkor is very sweet on the 5D.

    > Ill be really hot if I buy a 1200 dollar lense and in 3 years its
    > useless because they have change to FF for there prosumer cameras.


    This is why most people stay away from DX lenses. The only DX novelty lens
    I have is the 18-200mm VR.





    Rita
     
    =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rita_=C4_Berkowitz?=, Jun 24, 2007
    #3
  4. surf_doggie wrote:
    > Does anyone have any feed back on whether Nikon will go FF with its
    > cameras (dx2 excluded). I just bought a 105 micro with vr that is for
    > full frame cameras and am looking at the 17-55 2.8 which is DX.
    >
    > I must say I dont understand why they manufacture a new 105 micro that
    > is a FF lense and a 17-55 that is a 1,200 DX lense. Anyone have any
    > sense what direction they are going with APS-C or Full frame?
    >
    > Ill be really hot if I buy a 1200 dollar lense and in 3 years its
    > useless because they have change to FF for there prosumer cameras.
    >
    > Earl


    You've got the marketing hype disease. You should see a doctor. It CAN be
    cured, no matter what others may say.

    DP
     
    Dennis Pogson, Jun 25, 2007
    #4
  5. Remember, every time you buy a DX Nikkor, it's like shouting: "Nikon,
    PLEASE don't ever bring out a full-frame body!"
     
    Scott Schuckert, Jun 25, 2007
    #5
  6. surf_doggie <> writes:
    > I'll be really hot if I buy a 1200 dollar lense and in 3 years its
    > useless because they have change to FF for there prosumer cameras.


    1. It won't be useless. /If/ the rumoured D3 is FF, it will most
    certainly come with a HSC mode that will let you use all your
    DX-lenses.

    2. Nikon will never abandon the DX-format for prosumer cameras.
    The DX-format is lighter, cheaper to manufacture, and fits
    the needs of most professionals and amateurs, and will
    continue to be so. Any advance in technology that make
    FF-sensors cheaper will make DX-sensors cheaper too. The
    price of FF may come down, but the gap remains.

    Btw. I shoot FF Nikon today (with am F-mount Kodak Pro 14n), but
    unless the FF D3 comes out below $3000, (and it won't), my next
    camera will be a D200.
    --
    - gisle hannemyr [ gisle{at}hannemyr.no - http://hannemyr.com/photo/ ]
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
    Sigma SD10, Kodak Pro 14n, Canon Powershot G5, Olympus 2020Z
    ------------------------------------------------------------------------
     
    Gisle Hannemyr, Jun 25, 2007
    #6
  7. surf_doggie

    SMS Guest

    surf_doggie wrote:
    > Does anyone have any feed back on whether Nikon will go FF with its
    > cameras (dx2 excluded). I just bought a 105 micro with vr that is for
    > full frame cameras and am looking at the 17-55 2.8 which is DX.
    >
    > I must say I dont understand why they manufacture a new 105 micro that
    > is a FF lense and a 17-55 that is a 1,200 DX lense. Anyone have any
    > sense what direction they are going with APS-C or Full frame?


    LOL, it's pretty clear why they did this, and a good indicator that they
    will be releasing a FF D-SLR. They've been stuck with no good FF sensor.
    Obviously Canon isn't going to sell it to them, and the Fill Factory
    full frame sensor used by Kodak isn't that great.

    > Ill be really hot if I buy a 1200 dollar lense and in 3 years its
    > useless because they have change to FF for there prosumer cameras.


    There really is no question that Nikon will move to FF or close to FF if
    they come out with a professional model D-SLR, though maybe not FF for
    prosumer.

    The lenses have pretty good resale value, at least 50%, so you wouldn't
    be out the full cost, and of course you have the use of the lens in the
    meantime.
     
    SMS, Jun 25, 2007
    #7
  8. surf_doggie

    Ben Miller Guest

    On Jun 24, 11:50 am, surf_doggie <> wrote:
    > Does anyone have any feed back on whether Nikon will go FF with its
    > cameras (dx2 excluded). I just bought a 105 micro with vr that is for
    > full frame cameras and am looking at the 17-55 2.8 which is DX.
    >
    > I must say I dont understand why they manufacture a new 105 micro that
    > is a FF lense and a 17-55 that is a 1,200 DX lense. Anyone have any
    > sense what direction they are going with APS-C or Full frame?
    >
    > Ill be really hot if I buy a 1200 dollar lense and in 3 years its
    > useless because they have change to FF for there prosumer cameras.
    >
    > Earl


    If people would stop obsessing about FF and look at the real issue
    with the professional line of Nikon cameras, we might get somewhere.
    The consumer line is deeply entrenched in the DX format, and it
    probably isn't going anywhere. The next logical step, IMO, for Nikon
    is to address high ISO noise in the D3 line, and possibly introduce
    something along the lines of the 1DMKIII in terms of crop factor -
    1.3x, 1.2x instead of the 1.5x currently in play. More fps at normal
    crop factor/resolutioin would be nice, too. Nikon is losing big time
    on the sidelines, as it were. If Canon can put out a camera with
    their own sensor that produces very low noise even at ISO 6400, Nikon
    needs to rethink the Sony sensor idea, and get with the program. Many
    will disagree, but IMO, w/o extensive post processing, Hi1 and Hi2 are
    basically garbage off of the D2x. Flame away, I'm not interested. I
    have a D2x, and FF is down the list of things that would move me to a
    D3. In order of importance:

    - more fps, or even 8 but w/o having to go HSC and losing frame/
    resolution
    - address high ISO noise, include 50 ISO
    - 1.2x or 1.3x crop factor
    - FF
    - price - it won't debut under $5000, this much is clear...
     
    Ben Miller, Jun 25, 2007
    #8
  9. "Scott Schuckert" <> wrote in message
    news:250620070830482392%...
    >
    > Remember, every time you buy a DX Nikkor, it's like shouting: "Nikon,
    > PLEASE don't ever bring out a full-frame body!"


    Why? I buy DX Nikkors, and if Nikon brings out a full-frame (or
    near-full-frame) body it makes no difference to me one way or t'other.

    They'll still be bringing out more DX bodies for the 99% of users who
    couldn't care less about full frame.

    Neil
     
    Neil Harrington, Jun 25, 2007
    #9
  10. Ben Miller wrote:

    > If people would stop obsessing about FF and look at the real issue
    > with the professional line of Nikon cameras, we might get somewhere.
    > The consumer line is deeply entrenched in the DX format, and it
    > probably isn't going anywhere. The next logical step, IMO, for Nikon
    > is to address high ISO noise in the D3 line, and possibly introduce
    > something along the lines of the 1DMKIII in terms of crop factor -
    > 1.3x, 1.2x instead of the 1.5x currently in play. More fps at normal
    > crop factor/resolutioin would be nice, too. Nikon is losing big time
    > on the sidelines, as it were. If Canon can put out a camera with
    > their own sensor that produces very low noise even at ISO 6400, Nikon
    > needs to rethink the Sony sensor idea, and get with the program. Many
    > will disagree, but IMO, w/o extensive post processing, Hi1 and Hi2 are
    > basically garbage off of the D2x. Flame away, I'm not interested. I
    > have a D2x, and FF is down the list of things that would move me to a
    > D3. In order of importance:


    I agree that Nikon needs to get the high ISO bit worked out. You are
    forgetting that the D2x is an ancient camera technologically speaking and is
    on its way out. Even the D200 starts getting noisy at ISO 800. The other
    issue that is important for getting decent and usable high ISO shots from
    the D2x and D200 is to properly expose to the point of almost overexposing.
    Too many people underexpose with these cameras and try to rescue the shot in
    post.

    I'm really skeptical that Nikon is going to address noise issues in the D3
    to the point where it makes one lust for one. This is why I'm almost fully
    on the Canon bandwagon and see the need to shoot both platforms.

    > - price - it won't debut under $5000, this much is clear...


    Anything over $5,000 grand and Nikon can shove it where the sun doesn't
    shine.





    Rita
     
    =?iso-8859-1?Q?Rita_=C4_Berkowitz?=, Jun 25, 2007
    #10
  11. In article <>, Neil
    Harrington <> wrote:

    > > Remember, every time you buy a DX Nikkor, it's like shouting: "Nikon,
    > > PLEASE don't ever bring out a full-frame body!"

    >
    > Why? I buy DX Nikkors, and if Nikon brings out a full-frame (or
    > near-full-frame) body it makes no difference to me one way or t'other.


    Well, if people keep buying DX lenses, they'll buy fewer full-frame
    ones; and at some point a full frame body will wind up obsoleting too
    many lenses; and therefore is far less likely to be produced.

    I doubt I'll ever shoot more digital than film, and as it is, the
    mental juggling of the same lens having two angles of view gives me a
    headache. I spent several frustrated seconds the other day trying to
    figure why my 80-200 was suddenly a LONG lens...
     
    Scott Schuckert, Jun 26, 2007
    #11
  12. surf_doggie

    surf_doggie Guest

    On Jun 24, 12:50 pm, surf_doggie <> wrote:
    > Does anyone have any feed back on whether Nikon will go FF with its
    > cameras (dx2 excluded). I just bought a 105 micro with vr that is for
    > full frame cameras and am looking at the 17-55 2.8 which is DX.
    >
    > I must say I dont understand why they manufacture a new 105 micro that
    > is a FF lense and a 17-55 that is a 1,200 DX lense. Anyone have any
    > sense what direction they are going with APS-C or Full frame?
    >
    > Ill be really hot if I buy a 1200 dollar lense and in 3 years its
    > useless because they have change to FF for there prosumer cameras.
    >
    > Earl


    Yep its me Earl replying to myself. I couldnt reply to each of you
    individually but I must say you all have very good takes and info on
    the subject. I think you for your input.

    By the way Im not going for the 17-35 as I've sold the 18-200 vr to
    help finance my 17-55 purchase and just cant have less zoom coverage.
    Hey I flipped a coin.

    I researched all over the place on the web and have taken your answers
    into consideration and believe APS-C is here to stay for quite a bit
    even if they come out with a reasonably priced FF alternative et al
    technology comes down ect.

    Im not one to shoot targets and run graphs on chromatic aborations and
    pin cushining. I like what I like and am more a harry eyeball on the
    picture guy.

    Thank you all for your feedback.

    Earl
     
    surf_doggie, Jun 26, 2007
    #12
  13. surf_doggie

    SMS Guest

    Ben Miller wrote:

    > If people would stop obsessing about FF and look at the real issue
    > with the professional line of Nikon cameras, we might get somewhere.
    > The consumer line is deeply entrenched in the DX format, and it
    > probably isn't going anywhere. The next logical step, IMO, for Nikon
    > is to address high ISO noise in the D3 line, and possibly introduce
    > something along the lines of the 1DMKIII in terms of crop factor -
    > 1.3x, 1.2x instead of the 1.5x currently in play.


    Canon is abandoning that half-way step. It's true that obsessing about
    FF is kind of a side issue, but the fact is that it's the larger sensor
    with larger pixels that will solve the high ISO noise issue, and as long
    as you need a larger sensor you may as well make it the same size as a
    35mm frame. Nikon has been stuck, they can't or won't make their own low
    noise full frame sensor, Canon obviously won't sell sensors to them, and
    no one else makes a good full frame sensor. The best thing to happen to
    Nikon was Sony entering the D-SLR business with the Minolta line,
    because now Sony has more of a reason to develop a full frame sensor.

    Nikon will come out with FF because to not do so means continuing to
    hemorrhage customers at the high end of the market. While the quantities
    are low there, it still drives business at the lower end because people
    always dream of upgrading to higher end bodies and want to use their
    existing lenses.
     
    SMS, Jun 26, 2007
    #13
  14. surf_doggie

    Ben Miller Guest

    On Jun 25, 7:05 pm, SMS <> wrote:
    > Ben Miller wrote:
    > > If people would stop obsessing about FF and look at the real issue
    > > with the professional line of Nikon cameras, we might get somewhere.
    > > The consumer line is deeply entrenched in the DX format, and it
    > > probably isn't going anywhere. The next logical step, IMO, for Nikon
    > > is to address high ISO noise in the D3 line, and possibly introduce
    > > something along the lines of the 1DMKIII in terms of crop factor -
    > > 1.3x, 1.2x instead of the 1.5x currently in play.

    >
    > Canon is abandoning that half-way step. It's true that obsessing about
    > FF is kind of a side issue, but the fact is that it's the larger sensor
    > with larger pixels that will solve the high ISO noise issue, and as long
    > as you need a larger sensor you may as well make it the same size as a
    > 35mm frame.


    The MKIII is 1.3x - and VERY low noise. Now, I'm no engineer, but if
    this is all it takes, Nikon should have Sony make a larger
    sensor...perhaps, like someone said earlier, a 1.2x which might entice
    more D2x users to go w/ the D3 if it solves the high noise problems,
    delivers 8fps or more at full res and doesn't break the bank - what a
    wish list! Now that I think about it, they could produce a lower res
    camera, say 10mp at 1.2x and get more fps...whaddya think?
     
    Ben Miller, Jun 26, 2007
    #14
  15. In article <250620071909386855%>,
    Scott Schuckert <> wrote:
    >Well, if people keep buying DX lenses, they'll buy fewer full-frame
    >ones; and at some point a full frame body will wind up obsoleting too
    >many lenses; and therefore is far less likely to be produced.


    Nikon has relatively few, mostly uninteresting DX lenses. I doubt
    that this will be big problem.

    >I doubt I'll ever shoot more digital than film, and as it is, the
    >mental juggling of the same lens having two angles of view gives me a
    >headache. I spent several frustrated seconds the other day trying to
    >figure why my 80-200 was suddenly a LONG lens...


    That's just a matter of more practice. For example, a couple of months ago
    I was unpleasantly surprised that my 17-35 was not all that wide on DX.
    The reason is that I use film most of the time, and digital only occasionally.


    --
    That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
    could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
    by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
     
    Philip Homburg, Jun 26, 2007
    #15
  16. surf_doggie

    SMS Guest

    Ben Miller wrote:
    > On Jun 25, 7:05 pm, SMS <> wrote:
    >> Ben Miller wrote:
    >>> If people would stop obsessing about FF and look at the real issue
    >>> with the professional line of Nikon cameras, we might get somewhere.
    >>> The consumer line is deeply entrenched in the DX format, and it
    >>> probably isn't going anywhere. The next logical step, IMO, for Nikon
    >>> is to address high ISO noise in the D3 line, and possibly introduce
    >>> something along the lines of the 1DMKIII in terms of crop factor -
    >>> 1.3x, 1.2x instead of the 1.5x currently in play.

    >> Canon is abandoning that half-way step. It's true that obsessing about
    >> FF is kind of a side issue, but the fact is that it's the larger sensor
    >> with larger pixels that will solve the high ISO noise issue, and as long
    >> as you need a larger sensor you may as well make it the same size as a
    >> 35mm frame.

    >
    > The MKIII is 1.3x - and VERY low noise. Now, I'm no engineer, but if
    > this is all it takes, Nikon should have Sony make a larger
    > sensor...perhaps, like someone said earlier, a 1.2x which might entice
    > more D2x users to go w/ the D3 if it solves the high noise problems,
    > delivers 8fps or more at full res and doesn't break the bank - what a
    > wish list! Now that I think about it, they could produce a lower res
    > camera, say 10mp at 1.2x and get more fps...whaddya think?


    1.2x or 1.3x does have one advantage over full-frame, with regular full
    frame lenses you're not using the edges and you get less vignetting.
     
    SMS, Jun 26, 2007
    #16
  17. In article <4680e1bd$0$27173$>,
    SMS <> wrote:
    >1.2x or 1.3x does have one advantage over full-frame, with regular full
    >frame lenses you're not using the edges and you get less vignetting.


    For the same angle of view you have to use lenses with a shorter focal length
    which often provide less performance compared to full frame, and (for the
    same number of pixels) you need performance at a higher MTF, which is
    also a problem.

    The only advantage of smaller sensors is that they are slightly cheaper.
    (For really small sensors the overall camera can be made smaller, but that
    apply to Nikon and Canon's DSLRs)


    --
    That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
    could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
    by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
     
    Philip Homburg, Jun 26, 2007
    #17
  18. Philip Homburg wrote:
    > In article <4680e1bd$0$27173$>,
    > SMS <> wrote:
    >> 1.2x or 1.3x does have one advantage over full-frame, with regular full
    >> frame lenses you're not using the edges and you get less vignetting.

    >
    > For the same angle of view you have to use lenses with a shorter focal length
    > which often provide less performance compared to full frame, and (for the
    > same number of pixels) you need performance at a higher MTF, which is
    > also a problem.
    >
    > The only advantage of smaller sensors is that they are slightly cheaper.
    > (For really small sensors the overall camera can be made smaller, but that
    > apply to Nikon and Canon's DSLRs)


    Several folks (who've worked in the field) over the past year or so have
    stated clearly that the economics of a full sized sensor plays a large
    part in this game; that the small ones aren't just slightly cheaper.

    However, we won't know until other besides Canon do full frame.

    I do hope Nikon brings one out soon. Otherwise Canon isn't being pushed,
    among other things.

    --
    john mcwilliams
     
    John McWilliams, Jun 26, 2007
    #18
  19. "SMS" <> wrote in message
    news:46805829$0$27205$...
    > Ben Miller wrote:
    >
    >> If people would stop obsessing about FF and look at the real issue
    >> with the professional line of Nikon cameras, we might get somewhere.
    >> The consumer line is deeply entrenched in the DX format, and it
    >> probably isn't going anywhere. The next logical step, IMO, for Nikon
    >> is to address high ISO noise in the D3 line, and possibly introduce
    >> something along the lines of the 1DMKIII in terms of crop factor -
    >> 1.3x, 1.2x instead of the 1.5x currently in play.

    >
    > Canon is abandoning that half-way step. It's true that obsessing about FF
    > is kind of a side issue, but the fact is that it's the larger sensor with
    > larger pixels that will solve the high ISO noise issue, and as long as you
    > need a larger sensor you may as well make it the same size as a 35mm
    > frame. Nikon has been stuck, they can't or won't make their own low noise
    > full frame sensor, Canon obviously won't sell sensors to them, and no one
    > else makes a good full frame sensor. The best thing to happen to Nikon was
    > Sony entering the D-SLR business with the Minolta line, because now Sony
    > has more of a reason to develop a full frame sensor.


    Well, that's an interesting idea anyway.

    >
    > Nikon will come out with FF because to not do so means continuing to
    > hemorrhage customers at the high end of the market. While the quantities
    > are low there, it still drives business at the lower end because people
    > always dream of upgrading to higher end bodies and want to use their
    > existing lenses.


    I don't think so. Amateurs and enthusiasts will always outnumber
    professionals by about a gazillion to one (or anyway by a lot), and it's the
    amateur-grade cameras that drive the market, not the professional.

    I've owned an awful lot of SLRs over the last 45 years or so, not one of
    them was what you'd call a "professional" model and I have never wanted a
    professional model or left even slightly disadvantaged for the lack of one.

    Since the smaller DX sensor will always provide more than enough image
    quality to satisfy 99% of amateurs and enthusiasts, I think very few of them
    will "dream of upgrading" to a larger format. The DX format will continue to
    be analogous to 35mm was in film, and FF will mostly be limited in appeal to
    those who'd have gone to medium format in film.

    Neil
     
    Neil Harrington, Jun 26, 2007
    #19
  20. In article <>,
    John McWilliams <> wrote:
    >Several folks (who've worked in the field) over the past year or so have
    >stated clearly that the economics of a full sized sensor plays a large
    >part in this game; that the small ones aren't just slightly cheaper.
    >
    >However, we won't know until other besides Canon do full frame.
    >
    >I do hope Nikon brings one out soon. Otherwise Canon isn't being pushed,
    >among other things.


    I don't know if Canon is making a huge loss at the 5D, but if you take
    the retail price of a 5D and add the price of a Nikon F6, then you end up
    with the price of a D2X.

    Assuming that Canon is not selling the 5D at a loss and enough demand,
    Nikon should be able to produce a 'D3' with a FF sensor at the same price
    as the D2X.

    It is possible that you can't make cameras with a FF sensor for less than
    $2000 retail. But that is still a big market.


    --
    That was it. Done. The faulty Monk was turned out into the desert where it
    could believe what it liked, including the idea that it had been hard done
    by. It was allowed to keep its horse, since horses were so cheap to make.
    -- Douglas Adams in Dirk Gently's Holistic Detective Agency
     
    Philip Homburg, Jun 26, 2007
    #20
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