Nikon D70 vs. Canon Digital Rebel 300D

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Elmo Burger, Apr 26, 2004.

  1. Elmo Burger

    Elmo Burger Guest

    OK. The two sub $1000 DSLRs have been out and tested for a while. Brand
    bias aside, instead of simply asking the question of which is better, I
    would like this thread to point out the advantages and disadvantages of
    each. I read Phil Askey's reviews at DPREVIEW.COM about the two cameras,
    but I would like to hear from some owners. It would be GREAT if we can
    hear from some people that have handled BOTH cameras.

    Obvously if you are already invested in lenses and accessories for one
    brand, it probably makes sense to stick with that brand. But what about
    the DSLR virgins?

    The Rebel kit is selling for as low as $879 on Pricegrabber at quality
    merchants, while the Nikon is going for $1300. Is the Rebel truly the
    better value? Or is the $400+ difference only cosmetic?

    From what I understand, the Nikon kit lens is OK, while the EF-S Canon
    lens is supposed to be a dog. Any thoughts?

    I'm in the market for my first DSLR. I'm not invested in either brand
    yet, so that is not a factor. The Rebel price drop has begun. How low
    will it go before it is replaced?

    --
    Elmo Burger
     
    Elmo Burger, Apr 26, 2004
    #1
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  2. Elmo Burger

    Lung Fish Guest

    "Elmo Burger" <> wrote in news:E1BI27x-
    -server.org:

    > OK. The two sub $1000 DSLRs have been out and tested for a while. Brand
    > bias aside, instead of simply asking the question of which is better, I
    > would like this thread to point out the advantages and disadvantages of
    > each. I read Phil Askey's reviews at DPREVIEW.COM about the two cameras,
    > but I would like to hear from some owners. It would be GREAT if we can
    > hear from some people that have handled BOTH cameras.


    Feature wise, the Nikon is far ahead of the Canon. Also, in build quality
    and feel. The kit lens tha Nikon bundles in is also on a different level
    that the Canon.

    Of course, you still need to look at the overall system that you will be
    entering into. Pricewise, the bodies are still very close to make a
    comparison valid. The kit lenses are a bit more differentiated by their
    cost as well.

    But hold them both in your hands and look at the feature set and you'll
    walk away with the D70.
     
    Lung Fish, Apr 26, 2004
    #2
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  3. Elmo Burger

    Bull Winkle Guest

    In article <Xns94D75A0D6B8F1lungfish@216.196.97.136>,
    Lung Fish <> wrote:

    > But hold them both in your hands and look at the feature set and you'll
    > walk away with the D70.


    That makes me happy as I bought the D70 "Outfit" on Friday and used it for a
    Wedding on Saturday. I think its a good deal.
     
    Bull Winkle, Apr 26, 2004
    #3
  4. On Mon, 26 Apr 2004 13:12:51 UTC, Bull Winkle <>
    wrote:

    > In article <Xns94D75A0D6B8F1lungfish@216.196.97.136>,
    > Lung Fish <> wrote:
    >
    > > But hold them both in your hands and look at the feature set and you'll
    > > walk away with the D70.

    >
    > That makes me happy as I bought the D70 "Outfit" on Friday and used it for a
    > Wedding on Saturday. I think its a good deal.


    Bought our D70 outfit on a Saturday afternoon, that evening I was
    taking
    gorgeous shots of gorgeous sunsets here in Florida. Later, night
    shots and
    sunrise shots in Tarpon Springs harbor.

    LT
     
    Linda Terrell, Apr 26, 2004
    #4
  5. Elmo Burger

    Guest

    Elmo Burger <> wrote:
    > OK. The two sub $1000 DSLRs have been out and tested for a while. Brand
    > bias aside, instead of simply asking the question of which is better, I
    > would like this thread to point out the advantages and disadvantages of
    > each. I read Phil Askey's reviews at DPREVIEW.COM about the two cameras,
    > but I would like to hear from some owners. It would be GREAT if we can
    > hear from some people that have handled BOTH cameras.


    The better camera for you depends on the type of subjects you prefer to
    shoot. A friend of mine has a D70 and I have a Digital Rebel. We are both
    very happy with our cameras. It seems to me that both offer superb image
    quality, but the D70 does it faster. If you shoot mostly action scenes,
    you would probably be better off with the D70 since it is faster to
    save images to the memory card. Of course, if you have lenses for Nikon
    or Canon already, that would play a heavy decision in which dSLR to buy.
     
    , Apr 26, 2004
    #5
  6. Elmo Burger

    Stafford_PC Guest

    My new D70 has resparked my interest in photography. I have a ton of nikon
    lens and several 8008s. It is an awesome camera.


    <> wrote in message news:c6jgcr$3le$...
    > Elmo Burger <> wrote:
    > > OK. The two sub $1000 DSLRs have been out and tested for a while. Brand
    > > bias aside, instead of simply asking the question of which is better, I
    > > would like this thread to point out the advantages and disadvantages of
    > > each. I read Phil Askey's reviews at DPREVIEW.COM about the two cameras,
    > > but I would like to hear from some owners. It would be GREAT if we can
    > > hear from some people that have handled BOTH cameras.

    >
    > The better camera for you depends on the type of subjects you prefer to
    > shoot. A friend of mine has a D70 and I have a Digital Rebel. We are both
    > very happy with our cameras. It seems to me that both offer superb image
    > quality, but the D70 does it faster. If you shoot mostly action scenes,
    > you would probably be better off with the D70 since it is faster to
    > save images to the memory card. Of course, if you have lenses for Nikon
    > or Canon already, that would play a heavy decision in which dSLR to buy.
    >
     
    Stafford_PC, Apr 27, 2004
    #6
  7. "Elmo Burger" <> wrote in message news:<-server.org>...
    > OK. The two sub $1000 DSLRs have been out and tested for a while.


    The 13.72MP SD9 is selling for $650.
     
    George Preddy, Apr 27, 2004
    #7
  8. Elmo Burger

    Tom Scales Guest

    Well shoot, if we're going to quote interpolated numbers, then

    My D100 was more expensive than that, but hey, after just a little effort
    with Photoshop, it's a 61 megapixel camera, no wait, wait, it's 6.1
    GIGApixels.....

    What a hoot.

    Tom
    "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > "Elmo Burger" <> wrote in message

    news:<-server.org>...
    > > OK. The two sub $1000 DSLRs have been out and tested for a while.

    >
    > The 13.72MP SD9 is selling for $650.
     
    Tom Scales, Apr 27, 2004
    #8
  9. Tom Scales wrote:
    > Well shoot, if we're going to quote interpolated numbers, then
    >
    > My D100 was more expensive than that, but hey, after just a little effort
    > with Photoshop, it's a 61 megapixel camera, no wait, wait, it's 6.1
    > GIGApixels.....
    >


    wooow, you must have a lot of RAM in your PC :p
     
    Yves Deweerdt, Apr 27, 2004
    #9
  10. Elmo Burger

    Tom Scales Guest

    Guess I'll have to buy a Mac :)
    "Yves Deweerdt" <> wrote in message
    news:c6lgib$bjj$...
    > Tom Scales wrote:
    > > Well shoot, if we're going to quote interpolated numbers, then
    > >
    > > My D100 was more expensive than that, but hey, after just a little

    effort
    > > with Photoshop, it's a 61 megapixel camera, no wait, wait, it's 6.1
    > > GIGApixels.....
    > >

    >
    > wooow, you must have a lot of RAM in your PC :p
    >
     
    Tom Scales, Apr 27, 2004
    #10
  11. Elmo Burger

    Jeff Shoaf Guest

    (George Preddy) wrote in
    news::

    > "Elmo Burger" <> wrote in message
    > news:<-server.org>...
    >> OK. The two sub $1000 DSLRs have been out and tested for a while.

    >
    > The 13.72MP SD9 is selling for $650.


    Don't you mean "for sell for $650"?

    Since it's a discontinued model, if it was really selling, it'd be out of
    stock by now unless there was a huge backlog of unsold SD9's in the
    pipeline, which would indicate it wasn't selling before they marked it
    waaaaaayyyyy down...
     
    Jeff Shoaf, Apr 27, 2004
    #11
  12. "Elmo Burger" <> wrote in message
    news:-server.org...

    >I'm in the market for my first DSLR. I'm not invested in either brand
    >yet, so that is not a factor. The Rebel price drop has begun. How low
    >will it go before it is replaced?


    You can get the Canon 300D kit for $800 from MicroCenter during their 20%
    off sale. You can get the Canon 10D body for $1200.

    So price-wise, the choice is more between the D70 and the 10D, even though
    the D70 competes more against the 300D.

    The EOS-300D bundled lens is good optically, it's just a little slow.

    I'd probably get the D70 over the 300D, but the 10D over the D70. With the
    price drop of the 10D, I'd opt for the 10D.

    I'm thinking that within a few months Canon will up the ante with an 8Mp or
    10Mp (whatever their new CMOS sensor is) version of the 10D and 300D. These
    two models are rather old.
     
    Steven M. Scharf, Apr 28, 2004
    #12
  13. Elmo Burger

    Chris Cox Guest

    Wow - George has invented yet more bad math.

    First it was 3.4MP = 10.2 MP
    Now it's 3.4 MP = 13.72 MP

    I'd rather stick with the tried and truth: 3.4 MP = 3.4 MP

    Chris


    In article <>, George
    Preddy <> wrote:

    > "Elmo Burger" <> wrote in message
    > news:<-server.org>...
    > > OK. The two sub $1000 DSLRs have been out and tested for a while.

    >
    > The 13.72MP SD9 is selling for $650.
     
    Chris Cox, Apr 30, 2004
    #13
  14. Chris Cox <> wrote in message news:<290420041837498796%>...
    > First it was 3.4MP = 10.2 MP
    > Now it's 3.4 MP = 13.72 MP
    >
    > I'd rather stick with the tried and truth: 3.4 MP = 3.4 MP


    Well, I am no fan of the Sigma SD9/SD10 either (after personally
    having tried them both), but the MP is actually not as easy as many
    people put it. You need to understand the way CCD/CMOS works on
    digital cameras and then you need to unerstand what the Foveon does
    differently.

    The fact that Sigma built a rather crappy camera around the Foveon
    doesn't mean the Foveon chip is a bad thing. Imagine what could be
    achieved with the Foveon and Canon Digic or Nikon's logic around it.
     
    Bernhard Mayer, Apr 30, 2004
    #14
  15. Elmo Burger

    imbsysop Guest

    On 30 Apr 2004 00:11:43 -0700, (Bernhard Mayer)
    wrote:

    >Chris Cox <> wrote in message news:<290420041837498796%>...
    >> First it was 3.4MP = 10.2 MP
    >> Now it's 3.4 MP = 13.72 MP
    >>
    >> I'd rather stick with the tried and truth: 3.4 MP = 3.4 MP

    >
    >Well, I am no fan of the Sigma SD9/SD10 either (after personally
    >having tried them both), but the MP is actually not as easy as many
    >people put it. You need to understand the way CCD/CMOS works on
    >digital cameras and then you need to unerstand what the Foveon does
    >differently.
    >
    >The fact that Sigma built a rather crappy camera around the Foveon
    >doesn't mean the Foveon chip is a bad thing. Imagine what could be
    >achieved with the Foveon and Canon Digic or Nikon's logic around it.


    nevertheless a "pixel" is one "picture element" independent how many
    "photo locations" one may imagine to build one .. so just playing on
    words isn't adding any technical improvement/superiority whatsoever
    despite vaporware reviews.
     
    imbsysop, Apr 30, 2004
    #15
  16. "imbsysop" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    SNIP
    > nevertheless a "pixel" is one "picture element" independent how many
    > "photo locations" one may imagine to build one ..


    Yes, it is a bit surprising how hard that is to understand, for some.
    Pixels are RGB output/picture elements of a single color, and they can be of
    different quality.

    Bart
     
    Bart van der Wolf, Apr 30, 2004
    #16
  17. "Bernhard Mayer" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Chris Cox <> wrote in message

    news:<290420041837498796%>...
    > > First it was 3.4MP = 10.2 MP
    > > Now it's 3.4 MP = 13.72 MP
    > >
    > > I'd rather stick with the tried and truth: 3.4 MP = 3.4 MP

    >
    > Well, I am no fan of the Sigma SD9/SD10 either (after personally
    > having tried them both), but the MP is actually not as easy as many
    > people put it.


    It may be easier than some people think ;-)
    Input sensors are not the same as output RGB pixels.

    SNIP
    > The fact that Sigma built a rather crappy camera around the Foveon
    > doesn't mean the Foveon chip is a bad thing.


    The main flaws are the lack of an anti-aliasing filter (they did that to
    compete with 4MP+ cameras), and the attempt to lock people into a Sigma lens
    mount. All the rest is postprocessing.

    > Imagine what could be achieved with the Foveon and Canon Digic or Nikon's

    logic around it.

    That's only postprocessing. Some might have helped to reduce noise, and have
    JPEG output right from the camera, but the main limitations come from the
    sensor.
    The lack of color separation is a function of the design, and the limited
    charge storage capacity per sensor and the unavoidable heavy postprocessing
    will result in excessive noise. That will result in even more noise when the
    small signal is amplified at higher ISO's.
    The very small fill factor of the SD-9's sensors will cause horrible
    'bokeh', something that was mostly fixed with the addition of microlenses.
    Remains the stairstepping caused by the absence of a low-pass filter, and
    the low native output pixel count which restricts output magnification
    potential.

    Bart
     
    Bart van der Wolf, Apr 30, 2004
    #17
  18. (Bernhard Mayer) writes:

    >Well, I am no fan of the Sigma SD9/SD10 either (after personally
    >having tried them both), but the MP is actually not as easy as many
    >people put it. You need to understand the way CCD/CMOS works on
    >digital cameras and then you need to unerstand what the Foveon does
    >differently.


    Yes, but that's easy to understand. Measuring 3 colours at each
    location instead of 1 colour gives you higher chroma (colour difference)
    resolution, and it avoids the possibility of chroma/luma errors in Bayer
    demosaicing. But it does not increase luminance resolution at all.

    Even 3CCD cameras, which have better sensitivity and colour reproduction
    than the Foveon, do not have higher spatial resolution than a B&W sensor
    or a Bayer sensor with the same number of measuring locations. And all
    of these sensors need an anti-aliasing filter of some sort to avoid
    aliasing artifacts; there's nothing magic about 3-colour sensing.

    >The fact that Sigma built a rather crappy camera around the Foveon
    >doesn't mean the Foveon chip is a bad thing. Imagine what could be
    >achieved with the Foveon and Canon Digic or Nikon's logic around it.


    Then the camera would give JPEG as well as raw images in reasonable
    time. If these camera makers put an anti-aliasing filter in, the
    aliasing problems would go away. But the colour would likely still be
    poor, because the Foveon chip itself has poor colour response curves.

    Dave
     
    Dave Martindale, Apr 30, 2004
    #18
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