Nikon D200 vs. D80

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by W Chan, Sep 11, 2006.

  1. W Chan

    ASAAR Guest

    On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 21:43:18 -0400, Pie Crust Bill wrote:

    > For comparison to see if you need the D200 over the D80, perhaps. But
    > there are factual errors, such as the sensor being the same as the
    > D200 (it is not), no mirror lockup (it has it), etc.


    Didn't he say that they both had mirror lockup, but the D80's was
    more limited, being that it was really just for sensor cleaning?
    I'm not familiar with the differences between the sensors. If
    they're significant enough to matter, what would they be?
    Sensitivity? Speed? Power consumption? Something else?


    > I fully admit I have an agenda - to help new people looking for honest
    > advice.
    >
    > Ken Rockwell is a flake and I don't like to see people get misled by
    > his delusional reviews. Usually people learn quickly on their own that
    > he's not someone to trust for accurate or honest info. I like to give
    > them a head-start though.


    Your comments may have a different effect than the ones you
    intended. Guess why? :)
     
    ASAAR, Sep 21, 2006
    #21
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  2. W Chan

    ASAAR Guest

    On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:00:43 -0400, Bill wrote:

    >> Really? Show us one single mistake in his comparison.

    >
    > Start at the top:
    >
    > "D80 has the D200's 10 MP image sensor".
    >
    > ACK....wrong.


    That's probably a clumsy way of saying that both sensors have 10
    million pixels, not that they're identical.


    > Jump down to the first comparison list where he has side-by-side data
    > and you find more errors. Let's start at the third item in the list:
    >
    > Weight 20 oz. (575g) [D80]
    >
    > ACK...wrong.
    >
    > Weight 29 oz. (825g) [D200]
    >
    > ACK...wrong.
    >
    > The rest you can find on your own...


    Not long ago I posted the weights of many of the DSLRs from Canon
    and Nikon, as given in dpreview.com's reviews. They differed from
    the values of several Canon DSLRs as given by some of rpd's Canon
    owners, but not by a tremendous amount. FWIW according to dpreview,
    the weights of these two cameras without batteries are 585 g (1.3
    lb) for the D80 and 830 g (1.8 lb) for the D200. Off by 10 grams
    and 5 grams. You think that's a sufficient discrepancy to justify
    calling Rockwell a flake and a liar? Sheesh. Take a look at
    yourself before you cast out any more Persians. :)
     
    ASAAR, Sep 21, 2006
    #22
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  3. W Chan

    Bill Guest

    "ASAAR" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 22:00:43 -0400, Bill wrote:
    >
    >>> Really? Show us one single mistake in his comparison.

    >>
    >> Start at the top:
    >>
    >> "D80 has the D200's 10 MP image sensor".
    >>
    >> ACK....wrong.

    >
    > That's probably a clumsy way of saying that both sensors have 10
    > million pixels, not that they're identical.


    The sensors are not at all similar. The only similarity is the
    manufacturer and the approximate number of pixels, beyond that they're
    quite different.

    >> Jump down to the first comparison list where he has side-by-side
    >> data
    >> and you find more errors. Let's start at the third item in the
    >> list:
    >>
    >> Weight 20 oz. (575g) [D80]
    >>
    >> ACK...wrong.
    >>
    >> Weight 29 oz. (825g) [D200]
    >>
    >> ACK...wrong.
    >>
    >> The rest you can find on your own...

    >
    > Off by 10 grams
    > and 5 grams. You think that's a sufficient discrepancy to justify
    > calling Rockwell a flake and a liar? Sheesh. Take a look at
    > yourself before you cast out any more Persians. :)


    Like I said, that's only the beginning. Take the time to look and
    learn, and you'll see a lot more and you'll start to realize why I
    feel this way. Hint - it's not just the comparison data.

    I should mention that my girlfriend tells me all the time that I'm a
    pretty easy going guy, and it takes a lot to get me riled up - and
    she's tried on several occasions. But when it comes to twits spouting
    off about things that they clearly do not have a complete grasp upon,
    it irks me to no end.

    Rockwell is one of those twits.
     
    Bill, Sep 21, 2006
    #23
  4. W Chan

    Bill Guest

    "ASAAR" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 21:43:18 -0400, Pie Crust Bill wrote:
    >
    >> For comparison to see if you need the D200 over the D80, perhaps.
    >> But
    >> there are factual errors, such as the sensor being the same as the
    >> D200 (it is not), no mirror lockup (it has it), etc.

    >
    > Didn't he say that they both had mirror lockup, but the D80's was
    > more limited, being that it was really just for sensor cleaning?


    Yes, which is bullsh!t.

    While the D200 can hold the mirror up for an extended period, the
    difference is merely a period of time. The purpose is to eliminate
    mirror slap vibrations, and both do that exactly the same way.

    True mirror lockup means the mirror is locked up out of the way before
    a lense is even attached so that a lense with a protruding rear
    element does not get hit by the mirror when it moves, then stays up
    AFTER the exposure so the mirror doesn't fall on the rear of a lense.

    This isn't a big deal these days as most lenses don't protrude into
    the mirror chamber.

    The comment about the D80 is only for sensor cleaning is VERY
    misleading. Also in the comparsion chart he says "no" for mirror
    lockup, which is wrong since the D80 clearly does have the same delay
    lockup as the D200.

    It's all these little things that add up to one big twit.

    > I'm not familiar with the differences between the sensors. If
    > they're significant enough to matter, what would they be?
    > Sensitivity? Speed? Power consumption? Something else?


    The sensors are not the same pixel count, which means they're not from
    the same dies. The D200 has 4-channel output for higher frame rate and
    buffering. It appears the AA filter may also be different in that the
    D80 has better high ISO performance but perhaps at the cost of
    slightly less sharpness.

    The D50 was similar to the D70 in this regard.

    >> I fully admit I have an agenda - to help new people looking for
    >> honest
    >> advice.
    >>
    >> Ken Rockwell is a flake and I don't like to see people get misled
    >> by
    >> his delusional reviews. Usually people learn quickly on their own
    >> that
    >> he's not someone to trust for accurate or honest info. I like to
    >> give
    >> them a head-start though.

    >
    > Your comments may have a different effect than the ones you
    > intended. Guess why? :)


    Because my mom said I talk too loud?

    Hey I can't help that, I was trained that way...

    :)
     
    Bill, Sep 21, 2006
    #24
  5. W Chan

    Bill Guest

    "ASAAR" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Wed, 20 Sep 2006 21:43:18 -0400, Pie Crust Bill wrote:
    >
    >> For comparison to see if you need the D200 over the D80, perhaps.
    >> But
    >> there are factual errors, such as the sensor being the same as the
    >> D200 (it is not), no mirror lockup (it has it), etc.


    I forgot something in my last post...at the end of the comparison,
    Rockwell thanks some person for help.

    Given his history of deceitful "reviews", it makes me wonder if he
    wrote it or had any real input at all. Heck, maybe the twit had
    someone else write it up and he's never even seen a D80. With him, who
    knows...
     
    Bill, Sep 21, 2006
    #25
  6. In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Bill <> wrote:
    >>
    >> You are full of shit!

    >
    > I can't be...I went the bathroom earlier.
    >
    > :)
    >
    >> Did you read the article?

    >
    > Of course, and I handled the D80 on the weekend, that's why I know his
    > so-called "review" is suspect.
    >
    > Did you read it?
    >


    Yes ... did you?

    >> He did a direct comparison,
    >> and any opinion stated in there is clearly his.

    >
    > Opinions are fine, until they misguide innocent others looking for
    > good advice.
    >


    As I stated, it was primarily a feature comparison. Any conclusions he makes
    on those comparisons are clearly his opinion, but the feature comparisons
    themself are accurate; which is the subject of the article.

    >> As far as the article's
    >> accuracy, it appears to be quite accurate. All stats are tabulated
    >> and
    >> compared precisely. That link was indeed a decent post.

    >
    > For comparison to see if you need the D200 over the D80, perhaps. But
    > there are factual errors, such as the sensor being the same as the
    > D200 (it is not), no mirror lockup (it has it), etc.
    >


    I can't find in the specs from Nikon where it says the D80 has mirror lockup.
    Also, both the D80 and the D200 sport a 10.2MP sensor 3872x2592 pixels. Seems
    the same to me.

    >> Please keep your agenda to yourself.

    >
    > I fully admit I have an agenda - to help new people looking for honest
    > advice.
    >


    Yeah, right.

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse
    Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Sep 21, 2006
    #26
  7. In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Bill <> wrote:
    >
    > Yes, which is bullsh!t.
    >
    > While the D200 can hold the mirror up for an extended period, the
    > difference is merely a period of time. The purpose is to eliminate
    > mirror slap vibrations, and both do that exactly the same way.
    >


    If the lockup is the same as for the D70(s) then it is indeed only for
    cleaning. You can't use it to photograph an image and avoid mirror slap
    vibration. I admit that I am not sure about this feature without doing more
    research.

    >> I'm not familiar with the differences between the sensors. If
    >> they're significant enough to matter, what would they be?
    >> Sensitivity? Speed? Power consumption? Something else?

    >
    > The sensors are not the same pixel count, which means they're not from
    > the same dies. The D200 has 4-channel output for higher frame rate and
    > buffering. It appears the AA filter may also be different in that the
    > D80 has better high ISO performance but perhaps at the cost of
    > slightly less sharpness.
    >


    The pixel count is identical on both the D80 and the D200; which is 3872x2592
    pixels on a 10.2MP sensor.

    Compare the D80

    http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=2&productNr=25412

    to the D200

    http://www.nikonusa.com/template.php?cat=1&grp=2&productNr=25235

    for yourself. Same pixel count to be sure.

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse
    Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Sep 21, 2006
    #27
  8. In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Little Green Eyed Dragon <> wrote:
    >
    > I was talking with someone the other day boasting to be a personal
    > friend of his, I thought "idiot" after much sputtering from him I was
    > convinced.
    >


    I love hearsay ... I make judgements based upon it too; especially when we get
    it thirdhand in a newsgroup. Awesome!

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse
    Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Sep 21, 2006
    #28
  9. In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Bill <> wrote:
    > "cjcampbell" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >>
    >> Bill wrote:
    >>> His so-called "review" is full of misinformation and bias.

    >>
    >> Really? Show us one single mistake in his comparison.

    >
    > Start at the top:
    >
    > "D80 has the D200's 10 MP image sensor".
    >
    > ACK....wrong.


    Really? They both have a 10.2MP 3872x2592 sensor. Care to refute that?

    >
    > "look, quality and color of the D200's images"
    >
    > ACK...wrong.
    >
    > Jump down to the first comparison list where he has side-by-side data
    > and you find more errors. Let's start at the third item in the list:
    >
    > Weight 20 oz. (575g) [D80]
    >
    > ACK...wrong.


    Eh? Looks like Nikon aggrees with our buddy and not you:

    "Weight: Approximately 1 lb. 5 oz. (585g) without battery, memory card, body
    cap, or monitor cover"

    >
    > Weight 29 oz. (825g) [D200]
    >
    > ACK...wrong.
    >


    Wrong ... here is what is listed on Nikon's site:

    "Weight: Approx. 830g without battery, memory card, body cap, or monitor
    cover"

    Seems about right to me ....

    > The rest you can find on your own...I don't time to find and
    > copy&paste everything that Rockwell posts incorrectly - I'd be sitting
    > here all week.
    >


    Your agenda misrepresents your case.

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse
    Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Sep 21, 2006
    #29
  10. In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Bill <> wrote:
    >>
    >> That's probably a clumsy way of saying that both sensors have 10
    >> million pixels, not that they're identical.

    >
    > The sensors are not at all similar. The only similarity is the
    > manufacturer and the approximate number of pixels, beyond that they're
    > quite different.
    >


    You REALLY REALLY need to back up your answers. They have the exact same
    number of pixels according to Nikon @ 3872x2592. That is pretty specific ...
    to the pixel, don't you think?

    > Like I said, that's only the beginning. Take the time to look and
    > learn, and you'll see a lot more and you'll start to realize why I
    > feel this way. Hint - it's not just the comparison data.
    >


    So, far every one of your accusations has been refuted as incorrect and you
    have yet to discredit Ken's comparison values.

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse
    Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Sep 21, 2006
    #30
  11. W Chan

    Cynicor Guest

    Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
    > As I stated, it was primarily a feature comparison. Any conclusions he makes
    > on those comparisons are clearly his opinion, but the feature comparisons
    > themself are accurate; which is the subject of the article.


    The D200 is 120 better than the D80.
     
    Cynicor, Sep 21, 2006
    #31
  12. In rec.photo.digital.slr-systems Cynicor <jt__rup__i_n@speak__easy.net> wrote:
    > Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:
    >> As I stated, it was primarily a feature comparison. Any conclusions he makes
    >> on those comparisons are clearly his opinion, but the feature comparisons
    >> themself are accurate; which is the subject of the article.

    >
    > The D200 is 120 better than the D80.


    Hehe ... good one.

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse
    Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Sep 21, 2006
    #32
  13. W Chan

    ASAAR Guest

    On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 03:09:32 -0400, Bill wrote:

    >> Your comments may have a different effect than the ones you
    >> intended. Guess why? :)

    >
    > Because my mom said I talk too loud?
    >
    > Hey I can't help that, I was trained that way...
    >
    > :)


    Yes, you talk too loud. The other part of the answer is that the
    loudness is only part of what you learned at Mom's School of Spin.
    The problem is that you do it so poorly that Rockwell gets a free
    pass, since your own words damage your credibility. Perhaps you
    should ask Mom for a refund. Or take a refresher course. :)
     
    ASAAR, Sep 21, 2006
    #33
  14. W Chan

    ASAAR Guest

    On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:16:08 -0400, Cynicor wrote:

    >> As I stated, it was primarily a feature comparison. Any conclusions he makes
    >> on those comparisons are clearly his opinion, but the feature comparisons
    >> themself are accurate; which is the subject of the article.

    >
    > The D200 is 120 better than the D80.


    Actually, no. It doesn't work that way. Cameras aren't compared
    the same way that you'd compare print resolution. Your calculation
    would have us believe that the D200 is 150% better than the D80
    ((200-80)/80) when in fact it is 525% better ((200^2-80^2) / 80^2).
    So if the D80 is worth $1000, the D200 is a real bargain, since it's
    clearly worth more than $5000.
     
    ASAAR, Sep 21, 2006
    #34
  15. W Chan

    Cynicor Guest

    ASAAR wrote:
    > On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:16:08 -0400, Cynicor wrote:
    >
    >>> As I stated, it was primarily a feature comparison. Any conclusions he makes
    >>> on those comparisons are clearly his opinion, but the feature comparisons
    >>> themself are accurate; which is the subject of the article.

    >> The D200 is 120 better than the D80.

    >
    > Actually, no. It doesn't work that way. Cameras aren't compared
    > the same way that you'd compare print resolution. Your calculation
    > would have us believe that the D200 is 150% better than the D80
    > ((200-80)/80) when in fact it is 525% better ((200^2-80^2) / 80^2).
    > So if the D80 is worth $1000, the D200 is a real bargain, since it's
    > clearly worth more than $5000.


    But conversely, the D80 sensor is 3872x2592. The D200 sensor is
    3872x2592. If you compare sensor sizes, you get 10036224/10036224, or
    100%. Therefore, the D200 is 100% better than the D80.
     
    Cynicor, Sep 21, 2006
    #35
  16. In rec.photo.digital Cynicor <jt__rup__i_n@speak__easy.net> wrote:
    > ASAAR wrote:
    >> On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 09:16:08 -0400, Cynicor wrote:
    >>
    >>>> As I stated, it was primarily a feature comparison. Any conclusions he makes
    >>>> on those comparisons are clearly his opinion, but the feature comparisons
    >>>> themself are accurate; which is the subject of the article.
    >>> The D200 is 120 better than the D80.

    >>
    >> Actually, no. It doesn't work that way. Cameras aren't compared
    >> the same way that you'd compare print resolution. Your calculation
    >> would have us believe that the D200 is 150% better than the D80
    >> ((200-80)/80) when in fact it is 525% better ((200^2-80^2) / 80^2).
    >> So if the D80 is worth $1000, the D200 is a real bargain, since it's
    >> clearly worth more than $5000.

    >
    > But conversely, the D80 sensor is 3872x2592. The D200 sensor is
    > 3872x2592. If you compare sensor sizes, you get 10036224/10036224, or
    > 100%. Therefore, the D200 is 100% better than the D80.


    That is 100% equal or 0% better.

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse
    Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Sep 21, 2006
    #36
  17. Thomas T. Veldhouse wrote:

    >
    > I can't find in the specs from Nikon where it says the D80 has mirror lockup.
    > Also, both the D80 and the D200 sport a 10.2MP sensor 3872x2592 pixels. Seems
    > the same to me.
    >
    >


    The D80 has no mirror lockup mode. What it does have is a fixed 0.4
    second shutter delay which can be set when using the camera on a
    telescope or microscope (according to the manual this is why they
    provide the delay). The shutter opens 0.4 seconds after the mirror has
    flipped up.

    It also has 2, 5, 10 and 20 second options for a regular self-timer with
    no mirror lockup.

    David
     
    David Kilpatrick, Sep 21, 2006
    #37
  18. W Chan

    ASAAR Guest

    On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:22:39 -0400, Cynicor wrote:

    >> Actually, no. It doesn't work that way. Cameras aren't compared
    >> the same way that you'd compare print resolution. Your calculation
    >> would have us believe that the D200 is 150% better than the D80
    >> ((200-80)/80) when in fact it is 525% better ((200^2-80^2) / 80^2).
    >> So if the D80 is worth $1000, the D200 is a real bargain, since it's
    >> clearly worth more than $5000.

    >
    > But conversely, the D80 sensor is 3872x2592. The D200 sensor is
    > 3872x2592. If you compare sensor sizes, you get 10036224/10036224, or
    > 100%. Therefore, the D200 is 100% better than the D80.


    Interesting theory, but the D200 is older, so the D80 is 100%
    better, unless you have a workable conspiracy theory implicating
    Nikon. I tend to think Nikon innocent, with the D80 being a major
    advance for all photographers, since it's moving in the direction of
    allowing DSLRs to produce in-camera the kind of intense azure that
    you and so many other photographers prefer. Quelle cool tool!
     
    ASAAR, Sep 21, 2006
    #38
  19. W Chan

    Cynicor Guest

    ASAAR wrote:
    > On Thu, 21 Sep 2006 10:22:39 -0400, Cynicor wrote:
    >
    >>> Actually, no. It doesn't work that way. Cameras aren't compared
    >>> the same way that you'd compare print resolution. Your calculation
    >>> would have us believe that the D200 is 150% better than the D80
    >>> ((200-80)/80) when in fact it is 525% better ((200^2-80^2) / 80^2).
    >>> So if the D80 is worth $1000, the D200 is a real bargain, since it's
    >>> clearly worth more than $5000.

    >> But conversely, the D80 sensor is 3872x2592. The D200 sensor is
    >> 3872x2592. If you compare sensor sizes, you get 10036224/10036224, or
    >> 100%. Therefore, the D200 is 100% better than the D80.

    >
    > Interesting theory, but the D200 is older, so the D80 is 100%
    > better, unless you have a workable conspiracy theory implicating
    > Nikon. I tend to think Nikon innocent, with the D80 being a major
    > advance for all photographers, since it's moving in the direction of
    > allowing DSLRs to produce in-camera the kind of intense azure that
    > you and so many other photographers prefer. Quelle cool tool!


    So you're saying that it's not the D200's fault that I blue out the
    highlights on that Seattle photo?
     
    Cynicor, Sep 21, 2006
    #39
  20. In rec.photo.digital Cynicor <jt__rup__i_n@speak__easy.net> wrote:
    >
    > So you're saying that it's not the D200's fault that I blue out the
    > highlights on that Seattle photo?


    I think the sentance above says it all :) "I" did it.

    --
    Thomas T. Veldhouse
    Key Fingerprint: 2DB9 813F F510 82C2 E1AE 34D0 D69D 1EDC D5EC AED1
     
    Thomas T. Veldhouse, Sep 21, 2006
    #40
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