Nikon 8000 scanner, banding

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by nobody nowhere, Oct 13, 2003.

  1. I seem unable to get rid of banding. 1/6 of the picture, on the left,
    dark tree. The rest of the picture is a white building. CCD scanning,
    superfine is ticked. I tried multi sample scanning as well, 4 and even
    16 passes, but the banding in the dark part of the picture still there.
    It becomes only too evident when I select the dark part and then try to
    make it less dark by using levels. Rather disappointing, since I was
    assured in the past that it was enough to tick "superfine" and the
    banding will go away, and it did on every other similar occasion until
    now. Thanks in advance for any comments and suggestions.

    Nobody

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    nobody nowhere, Oct 13, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. nobody nowhere

    Bill Hilton Guest

    >From: nobody nowhere

    >I seem unable to get rid of banding. 1/6 of the picture, on the left,
    >dark tree. The rest of the picture is a white building. CCD scanning,
    >superfine is ticked.


    If you have 'superfine' checked then it's not banding as the rest of us know
    the term. Not saying you don't have a real problem, just that as it's defined
    'banding' is only possible with superfine unchecked so it's likely something
    else.

    Do you have ICE on? Is the film Kodachrome?

    Can you post a sample crop of this scan showing the problem so other 8000
    owners can see it and offer other suggestions?

    >Rather disappointing, since I was
    >assured in the past that it was enough to tick "superfine" and the
    >banding will go away, and it did on every other similar occasion until
    >now.


    How often do you see 'banding' with superfine unchecked? For most of us it's
    very rare, maybe one in a hundred scans. Some people never see it. If your
    ratio is a lot higher than 1% then maybe your machine is way out of calibration
    or something?

    Bill
    Bill Hilton, Oct 13, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Thank you Bill, you do look after me! Today by 3am I was still at it
    trying to ascertain the cause. ICE is on. The film is medium format,
    Fuji RVP (presumably Velvia?). This has never happened to me before,
    after I ticked "superfine". If I don't try to lighten up the dark side
    of the picture (with levels), there is no banding on the print, however,
    the amount of black seems to me too much. When I look more carefully at
    the monitor (CRT), and magnify the image, there seems to be no banding,
    so I assume it might be a printer problem. But in this case, what kind
    of problem? The nozzle check, and other "utility" checks were ok. I
    shall try to replace the black cartridge with a new one, just in case.
    Is it possible that the banding is there, on the monitor screen, but I
    cannot see it even at high magnification? The screen is reasonably
    calibrated, I think. If the problem does not go away, I shall post a
    sample for other 8000 owners to comment, as you suggest. Thank you
    very much once again.

    In article <>, Bill Hilton
    <> writes
    >>From: nobody nowhere

    >
    >>I seem unable to get rid of banding. 1/6 of the picture, on the left,
    >>dark tree. The rest of the picture is a white building. CCD scanning,
    >>superfine is ticked.

    >
    >If you have 'superfine' checked then it's not banding as the rest of us know
    >the term. Not saying you don't have a real problem, just that as it's defined
    >'banding' is only possible with superfine unchecked so it's likely something
    >else.
    >
    >Do you have ICE on? Is the film Kodachrome?
    >
    >Can you post a sample crop of this scan showing the problem so other 8000
    >owners can see it and offer other suggestions?
    >
    >>Rather disappointing, since I was
    >>assured in the past that it was enough to tick "superfine" and the
    >>banding will go away, and it did on every other similar occasion until
    >>now.

    >
    >How often do you see 'banding' with superfine unchecked? For most of us it's
    >very rare, maybe one in a hundred scans. Some people never see it. If your
    >ratio is a lot higher than 1% then maybe your machine is way out of calibration
    >or something?
    >
    >Bill



    Nobody
    nobody nowhere, Oct 13, 2003
    #3
  4. Further to my article below, replacing the black cartridge did not work.
    After I lighten up with levels, I get a number of very visible dark
    horizontal lines of various thickness and distances between them. The
    pattern is thin and frequent horizontal lines towards the bottom and top
    end of the problem area, whilst the lines are getting thicker and rarer
    towards the middle of the problem area. I cannot post the relevant part
    of the picture, as suggested by Bill, because these lines do not seem to
    appear on the monitor, as far as I can tell, and even if they were
    there, they would be far less noticeable than on the print. What do I
    do? Thanks in advance, in particular to Bill.

    In article <TGy5wIAzZmi$>, nobody nowhere
    <> writes
    >Thank you Bill, you do look after me! Today by 3am I was still at it
    >trying to ascertain the cause. ICE is on. The film is medium format,
    >Fuji RVP (presumably Velvia?). This has never happened to me before,
    >after I ticked "superfine". If I don't try to lighten up the dark side
    >of the picture (with levels), there is no banding on the print, however,
    >the amount of black seems to me too much. When I look more carefully at
    >the monitor (CRT), and magnify the image, there seems to be no banding,
    >so I assume it might be a printer problem. But in this case, what kind
    >of problem? The nozzle check, and other "utility" checks were ok. I
    >shall try to replace the black cartridge with a new one, just in case.
    >Is it possible that the banding is there, on the monitor screen, but I
    >cannot see it even at high magnification? The screen is reasonably
    >calibrated, I think. If the problem does not go away, I shall post a
    >sample for other 8000 owners to comment, as you suggest. Thank you
    >very much once again.
    >
    >In article <>, Bill Hilton
    ><> writes
    >>>From: nobody nowhere

    >>
    >>>I seem unable to get rid of banding. 1/6 of the picture, on the left,
    >>>dark tree. The rest of the picture is a white building. CCD scanning,
    >>>superfine is ticked.

    >>
    >>If you have 'superfine' checked then it's not banding as the rest of us know
    >>the term. Not saying you don't have a real problem, just that as it's defined
    >>'banding' is only possible with superfine unchecked so it's likely something
    >>else.
    >>
    >>Do you have ICE on? Is the film Kodachrome?
    >>
    >>Can you post a sample crop of this scan showing the problem so other 8000
    >>owners can see it and offer other suggestions?
    >>
    >>>Rather disappointing, since I was
    >>>assured in the past that it was enough to tick "superfine" and the
    >>>banding will go away, and it did on every other similar occasion until
    >>>now.

    >>
    >>How often do you see 'banding' with superfine unchecked? For most of us it's
    >>very rare, maybe one in a hundred scans. Some people never see it. If your
    >>ratio is a lot higher than 1% then maybe your machine is way out of calibration
    >>or something?
    >>
    >>Bill

    >
    >
    >Nobody
    >
    >



    Nobody
    nobody nowhere, Oct 13, 2003
    #4
  5. "nobody nowhere" <> wrote in message
    news:i5$GYJAZuni$...
    > Further to my article below, replacing the black cartridge did not work.


    SNIP

    If you want to make sure the printer is causing this, rotate the image 90
    degrees and print again. Maybe it's the paper used, or the climatic
    situation, or the printhead/cartridge (which printer are you using?).

    Bart
    Bart van der Wolf, Oct 13, 2003
    #5
  6. "nobody nowhere" <> wrote in message
    news:i5$GYJAZuni$...
    > Further to my article below, replacing the black cartridge did not work.
    > After I lighten up with levels, I get a number of very visible dark
    > horizontal lines of various thickness and distances between them. The
    > pattern is thin and frequent horizontal lines towards the bottom and top
    > end of the problem area, whilst the lines are getting thicker and rarer
    > towards the middle of the problem area. I cannot post the relevant part
    > of the picture, as suggested by Bill, because these lines do not seem to
    > appear on the monitor, as far as I can tell, and even if they were
    > there, they would be far less noticeable than on the print. What do I
    > do? Thanks in advance, in particular to Bill.


    If you can't see the lines on the monitor, even at 200% or 300% view in you
    image editor, then they're not there in the image, and it's not the scanner.

    Your printer driver should have a nozzle cleaning utililty. That might help.

    David J. Littleboy
    Tokyo, Japan
    David J. Littleboy, Oct 13, 2003
    #6
  7. nobody nowhere

    Bill Hilton Guest

    >From: nobody nowhere

    >After I lighten up with levels, I get a number of very visible dark
    >horizontal lines of various thickness and distances between them.
    > ...
    > If I don't try to lighten up the dark side
    >of the picture (with levels), there is no banding on the print


    Definitely not the *banding* problem with the scanner, so it's either the
    printer or you're introducing banding during post-processing.

    Can you print the file on someone else's printer, or get a print of a crop of
    the darker area at a cheapo place nearby? (Here in the US one can take the
    file to Sam's or Wal-Mart and get a small print for a few cents, for example).
    This might tell you if the file has been damaged or if it's the printer. If
    you're getting a small print done then crop a section of the starting image so
    the small print is proportionally the same as your big print (in other words if
    you're printing 8x10 and seeing the problem then crop 1/4 of your file and have
    it printed 4x5 at the same resolution so it's the same as a 4x5" section from
    the original since a problem could be visible or not at different print
    resolutions).

    If it's the printer (I think you have the Epson 1280, right?) it might be a
    slight head misalignment with the black nozzles, which you can check for in the
    Utilities, just run the head alignment test. You might also print three times
    at 720, 1440 and 2880 dpi and see if it gets better or worse (it might go away
    or be minimized at 2880 for example and be very noticeable at 720). If it
    occurs in just one area you can crop this and print on the same piece of paper
    easily enough to avoid wasting paper.

    If it's not the printer and you don't see the problem before you make your
    edits then it might be banding introduced during your Photoshop maneuvers.
    Check the histogram and see if you have wide comb-like gaps in the shadows
    after edits. If you do then maybe try to re-scan in 14 bit/channel mode and
    make the edits there, then convert to 8 bits and print. If this is really the
    cause of the problems then you could win $100 in the "Prove 16 bits is better
    than 8 bits" contest (grin), so it's not a common thing. But worth checking
    out.

    I'd put the odds at 90% on a slight printer head misalignment and 10% on a "16
    vs 8 bit" editing problem.

    >The film is medium format, Fuji RVP (presumably Velvia?).


    Velvia scans great, we've made excellent prints up to 20x24" with Nikon 8000
    scans of Velvia, so that's not the problem.

    Keep at it, you'll get it solved.

    Bill
    Bill Hilton, Oct 13, 2003
    #7
  8. nobody nowhere

    PiZzazA Guest

    Sound like that you are using Epson printers. They are notorious for banding
    if you do not use their OEM ink. It is very difficult to fix the problem
    yourselves no matter how many times you do clean the nozzles with the
    utilities. I dumped Epson because I had the same problem with two printers
    that were less than 6 month old. I am happy owner of Canon printers now.

    To repair this problem, you may want to search the web for help. There were
    talks about using steam etc. You can also buy cleaning cartredges for it.
    But they are not cheap.

    "nobody nowhere" <> wrote in message
    news:i5$GYJAZuni$...
    > Further to my article below, replacing the black cartridge did not work.
    > After I lighten up with levels, I get a number of very visible dark
    > horizontal lines of various thickness and distances between them. The
    > pattern is thin and frequent horizontal lines towards the bottom and top
    > end of the problem area, whilst the lines are getting thicker and rarer
    > towards the middle of the problem area. I cannot post the relevant part
    > of the picture, as suggested by Bill, because these lines do not seem to
    > appear on the monitor, as far as I can tell, and even if they were
    > there, they would be far less noticeable than on the print. What do I
    > do? Thanks in advance, in particular to Bill.
    >
    > In article <TGy5wIAzZmi$>, nobody nowhere
    > <> writes
    > >Thank you Bill, you do look after me! Today by 3am I was still at it
    > >trying to ascertain the cause. ICE is on. The film is medium format,
    > >Fuji RVP (presumably Velvia?). This has never happened to me before,
    > >after I ticked "superfine". If I don't try to lighten up the dark side
    > >of the picture (with levels), there is no banding on the print, however,
    > >the amount of black seems to me too much. When I look more carefully at
    > >the monitor (CRT), and magnify the image, there seems to be no banding,
    > >so I assume it might be a printer problem. But in this case, what kind
    > >of problem? The nozzle check, and other "utility" checks were ok. I
    > >shall try to replace the black cartridge with a new one, just in case.
    > >Is it possible that the banding is there, on the monitor screen, but I
    > >cannot see it even at high magnification? The screen is reasonably
    > >calibrated, I think. If the problem does not go away, I shall post a
    > >sample for other 8000 owners to comment, as you suggest. Thank you
    > >very much once again.
    > >
    > >In article <>, Bill Hilton
    > ><> writes
    > >>>From: nobody nowhere
    > >>
    > >>>I seem unable to get rid of banding. 1/6 of the picture, on the left,
    > >>>dark tree. The rest of the picture is a white building. CCD scanning,
    > >>>superfine is ticked.
    > >>
    > >>If you have 'superfine' checked then it's not banding as the rest of us

    know
    > >>the term. Not saying you don't have a real problem, just that as it's

    defined
    > >>'banding' is only possible with superfine unchecked so it's likely

    something
    > >>else.
    > >>
    > >>Do you have ICE on? Is the film Kodachrome?
    > >>
    > >>Can you post a sample crop of this scan showing the problem so other

    8000
    > >>owners can see it and offer other suggestions?
    > >>
    > >>>Rather disappointing, since I was
    > >>>assured in the past that it was enough to tick "superfine" and the
    > >>>banding will go away, and it did on every other similar occasion until
    > >>>now.
    > >>
    > >>How often do you see 'banding' with superfine unchecked? For most of us

    it's
    > >>very rare, maybe one in a hundred scans. Some people never see it. If

    your
    > >>ratio is a lot higher than 1% then maybe your machine is way out of

    calibration
    > >>or something?
    > >>
    > >>Bill

    > >
    > >
    > >Nobody
    > >
    > >

    >
    >
    > Nobody
    PiZzazA, Oct 13, 2003
    #8
  9. Thank you, I am using the 1290. I have done what you said, and now I am
    getting not only horizontal, but also vertical "bands" from the same
    dark part of the picture (the one which previously produced only
    horizontal "bands"). I shall try a few other things, including those
    recommended by others, and report accordingly. These things are sent to
    try us...

    In article <3f8aaced$0$58706$4all.nl>, Bart van der Wolf
    <> writes
    >
    >"nobody nowhere" <> wrote in message
    >news:i5$GYJAZuni$...
    >> Further to my article below, replacing the black cartridge did not work.

    >
    >SNIP
    >
    >If you want to make sure the printer is causing this, rotate the image 90
    >degrees and print again. Maybe it's the paper used, or the climatic
    >situation, or the printhead/cartridge (which printer are you using?).
    >
    >Bart
    >
    >



    Nobody
    nobody nowhere, Oct 13, 2003
    #9
  10. Thank you. I have tried to magnify again, and there might, repeat, might
    be some horizontal very fade lines in the scanned image on the monitor,
    but I cannot be certain, because these "bands", if this is what they
    are, are hardly noticeable, and might not be there. The nozzle check
    was ok, and this I is why I have not done a clean, but shall do one now,
    to see what it does.

    In article <bme43b$5qp$>, David J. Littleboy
    <> writes
    >
    >"nobody nowhere" <> wrote in message
    >news:i5$GYJAZuni$...
    >> Further to my article below, replacing the black cartridge did not work.
    >> After I lighten up with levels, I get a number of very visible dark
    >> horizontal lines of various thickness and distances between them. The
    >> pattern is thin and frequent horizontal lines towards the bottom and top
    >> end of the problem area, whilst the lines are getting thicker and rarer
    >> towards the middle of the problem area. I cannot post the relevant part
    >> of the picture, as suggested by Bill, because these lines do not seem to
    >> appear on the monitor, as far as I can tell, and even if they were
    >> there, they would be far less noticeable than on the print. What do I
    >> do? Thanks in advance, in particular to Bill.

    >
    >If you can't see the lines on the monitor, even at 200% or 300% view in you
    >image editor, then they're not there in the image, and it's not the scanner.
    >
    >Your printer driver should have a nozzle cleaning utililty. That might help.
    >
    >David J. Littleboy
    >Tokyo, Japan
    >
    >



    Nobody
    nobody nowhere, Oct 13, 2003
    #10
  11. Thank you very much Bill. I shall follow your suggestions, and let
    everybody know the results. Please see my other replies on the subject
    of today. The night is young, as they say. Thanks again.

    In article <>, Bill Hilton
    <> writes
    >>From: nobody nowhere

    >
    >>After I lighten up with levels, I get a number of very visible dark
    >>horizontal lines of various thickness and distances between them.
    >> ...
    >> If I don't try to lighten up the dark side
    >>of the picture (with levels), there is no banding on the print

    >
    >Definitely not the *banding* problem with the scanner, so it's either the
    >printer or you're introducing banding during post-processing.
    >
    >Can you print the file on someone else's printer, or get a print of a crop of
    >the darker area at a cheapo place nearby? (Here in the US one can take the
    >file to Sam's or Wal-Mart and get a small print for a few cents, for example).
    >This might tell you if the file has been damaged or if it's the printer. If
    >you're getting a small print done then crop a section of the starting image so
    >the small print is proportionally the same as your big print (in other words if
    >you're printing 8x10 and seeing the problem then crop 1/4 of your file and have
    >it printed 4x5 at the same resolution so it's the same as a 4x5" section from
    >the original since a problem could be visible or not at different print
    >resolutions).
    >
    >If it's the printer (I think you have the Epson 1280, right?) it might be a
    >slight head misalignment with the black nozzles, which you can check for in the
    >Utilities, just run the head alignment test. You might also print three times
    >at 720, 1440 and 2880 dpi and see if it gets better or worse (it might go away
    >or be minimized at 2880 for example and be very noticeable at 720). If it
    >occurs in just one area you can crop this and print on the same piece of paper
    >easily enough to avoid wasting paper.
    >
    >If it's not the printer and you don't see the problem before you make your
    >edits then it might be banding introduced during your Photoshop maneuvers.
    >Check the histogram and see if you have wide comb-like gaps in the shadows
    >after edits. If you do then maybe try to re-scan in 14 bit/channel mode and
    >make the edits there, then convert to 8 bits and print. If this is really the
    >cause of the problems then you could win $100 in the "Prove 16 bits is better
    >than 8 bits" contest (grin), so it's not a common thing. But worth checking
    >out.
    >
    >I'd put the odds at 90% on a slight printer head misalignment and 10% on a "16
    >vs 8 bit" editing problem.
    >
    >>The film is medium format, Fuji RVP (presumably Velvia?).

    >
    >Velvia scans great, we've made excellent prints up to 20x24" with Nikon 8000
    >scans of Velvia, so that's not the problem.
    >
    >Keep at it, you'll get it solved.
    >
    >Bill



    Nobody
    nobody nowhere, Oct 13, 2003
    #11
  12. Thank you very much, I have been using original Epson cartridges. I am
    still trying to make absolutely certain that it is the printer and not
    the scanner. You have now put ideas into my head, the 1290 is
    undoubtedly a great printer, but it is not problem-free, and it costs a
    lot to run.

    In article <yLAib.175973$
    >, PiZzazA <> writes
    >Sound like that you are using Epson printers. They are notorious for banding
    >if you do not use their OEM ink. It is very difficult to fix the problem
    >yourselves no matter how many times you do clean the nozzles with the
    >utilities. I dumped Epson because I had the same problem with two printers
    >that were less than 6 month old. I am happy owner of Canon printers now.
    >
    >To repair this problem, you may want to search the web for help. There were
    >talks about using steam etc. You can also buy cleaning cartredges for it.
    >But they are not cheap.
    >
    >"nobody nowhere" <> wrote in message
    >news:i5$GYJAZuni$...
    >> Further to my article below, replacing the black cartridge did not work.
    >> After I lighten up with levels, I get a number of very visible dark
    >> horizontal lines of various thickness and distances between them. The
    >> pattern is thin and frequent horizontal lines towards the bottom and top
    >> end of the problem area, whilst the lines are getting thicker and rarer
    >> towards the middle of the problem area. I cannot post the relevant part
    >> of the picture, as suggested by Bill, because these lines do not seem to
    >> appear on the monitor, as far as I can tell, and even if they were
    >> there, they would be far less noticeable than on the print. What do I
    >> do? Thanks in advance, in particular to Bill.
    >>
    >> In article <TGy5wIAzZmi$>, nobody nowhere
    >> <> writes
    >> >Thank you Bill, you do look after me! Today by 3am I was still at it
    >> >trying to ascertain the cause. ICE is on. The film is medium format,
    >> >Fuji RVP (presumably Velvia?). This has never happened to me before,
    >> >after I ticked "superfine". If I don't try to lighten up the dark side
    >> >of the picture (with levels), there is no banding on the print, however,
    >> >the amount of black seems to me too much. When I look more carefully at
    >> >the monitor (CRT), and magnify the image, there seems to be no banding,
    >> >so I assume it might be a printer problem. But in this case, what kind
    >> >of problem? The nozzle check, and other "utility" checks were ok. I
    >> >shall try to replace the black cartridge with a new one, just in case.
    >> >Is it possible that the banding is there, on the monitor screen, but I
    >> >cannot see it even at high magnification? The screen is reasonably
    >> >calibrated, I think. If the problem does not go away, I shall post a
    >> >sample for other 8000 owners to comment, as you suggest. Thank you
    >> >very much once again.
    >> >
    >> >In article <>, Bill Hilton
    >> ><> writes
    >> >>>From: nobody nowhere
    >> >>
    >> >>>I seem unable to get rid of banding. 1/6 of the picture, on the left,
    >> >>>dark tree. The rest of the picture is a white building. CCD scanning,
    >> >>>superfine is ticked.
    >> >>
    >> >>If you have 'superfine' checked then it's not banding as the rest of us

    >know
    >> >>the term. Not saying you don't have a real problem, just that as it's

    >defined
    >> >>'banding' is only possible with superfine unchecked so it's likely

    >something
    >> >>else.
    >> >>
    >> >>Do you have ICE on? Is the film Kodachrome?
    >> >>
    >> >>Can you post a sample crop of this scan showing the problem so other

    >8000
    >> >>owners can see it and offer other suggestions?
    >> >>
    >> >>>Rather disappointing, since I was
    >> >>>assured in the past that it was enough to tick "superfine" and the
    >> >>>banding will go away, and it did on every other similar occasion until
    >> >>>now.
    >> >>
    >> >>How often do you see 'banding' with superfine unchecked? For most of us

    >it's
    >> >>very rare, maybe one in a hundred scans. Some people never see it. If

    >your
    >> >>ratio is a lot higher than 1% then maybe your machine is way out of

    >calibration
    >> >>or something?
    >> >>
    >> >>Bill
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >Nobody
    >> >
    >> >

    >>
    >>
    >> Nobody

    >
    >



    Joseph White

    Whilst we run an anti-virus program on all outgoing e-mails, we are not liable
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    nobody nowhere, Oct 13, 2003
    #12
  13. OK. 1.15 am London time. I have fiddled a little more, and the
    conclusions seem to be as follows:-

    - The Nikon 8000 scanner has been acquitted. The so-called "bands" do
    not appear on the monitor screen. Bill, I have lost the $100 price,
    however, I did not mention to you that I always scan at 14 bits anyway.
    As you suspected from the outset, this was not a case of the 8000
    "banding".

    - Bill suspected that the trouble might perhaps stem from some Photoshop
    manipulation. Again, if following those manipulations (lighting up a
    dark area adjacent to a white area with levels) the "banding" is not on
    the monitor, I believe that this is not the problem.

    - On the latest attempt the "banding" became even more noticeable and
    bizarre, it took the form of thick dark circular lines affecting that
    part of the selected dark areas, which had been processed in Photoshop
    (levels, see above). (previously I had initially horizontal lines, and
    then, when I turned the picture 90 degrees, as advised by someone in
    this NG, I got both vertical and horizontal lines across the processed
    area). However, as I have just said all this happens on the print, I
    cannot see those thick dark circular lines on the monitor.

    - Bill and others who suspected the printer might well be right, but
    this is not good news. If there is a "slight printer head
    misalignment", as Bill thinks, probably rightly, the price of putting
    that right in Europe might be equal to the price of a new printer in US.
    I did all the nozzle cleaning, vertical alignments, etc. and still have
    the problem. I would be tempted to wait for the Epson 4000, however,
    would that printer necessarily be free from this type of problem? And
    what should I do in the meantime? Shall I go for a Canon, as someone
    suggested or implied? Or a 2200, which however would be silly with the
    4000 round the corner. What a pity, because I still think that the 1290
    is an excellent printer. Thanks in advance for your comments.

    In article <>, Bill Hilton
    <> writes
    >>From: nobody nowhere

    >
    >>After I lighten up with levels, I get a number of very visible dark
    >>horizontal lines of various thickness and distances between them.
    >> ...
    >> If I don't try to lighten up the dark side
    >>of the picture (with levels), there is no banding on the print

    >
    >Definitely not the *banding* problem with the scanner, so it's either the
    >printer or you're introducing banding during post-processing.
    >
    >Can you print the file on someone else's printer, or get a print of a crop of
    >the darker area at a cheapo place nearby? (Here in the US one can take the
    >file to Sam's or Wal-Mart and get a small print for a few cents, for example).
    >This might tell you if the file has been damaged or if it's the printer. If
    >you're getting a small print done then crop a section of the starting image so
    >the small print is proportionally the same as your big print (in other words if
    >you're printing 8x10 and seeing the problem then crop 1/4 of your file and have
    >it printed 4x5 at the same resolution so it's the same as a 4x5" section from
    >the original since a problem could be visible or not at different print
    >resolutions).
    >
    >If it's the printer (I think you have the Epson 1280, right?) it might be a
    >slight head misalignment with the black nozzles, which you can check for in the
    >Utilities, just run the head alignment test. You might also print three times
    >at 720, 1440 and 2880 dpi and see if it gets better or worse (it might go away
    >or be minimized at 2880 for example and be very noticeable at 720). If it
    >occurs in just one area you can crop this and print on the same piece of paper
    >easily enough to avoid wasting paper.
    >
    >If it's not the printer and you don't see the problem before you make your
    >edits then it might be banding introduced during your Photoshop maneuvers.
    >Check the histogram and see if you have wide comb-like gaps in the shadows
    >after edits. If you do then maybe try to re-scan in 14 bit/channel mode and
    >make the edits there, then convert to 8 bits and print. If this is really the
    >cause of the problems then you could win $100 in the "Prove 16 bits is better
    >than 8 bits" contest (grin), so it's not a common thing. But worth checking
    >out.
    >
    >I'd put the odds at 90% on a slight printer head misalignment and 10% on a "16
    >vs 8 bit" editing problem.
    >
    >>The film is medium format, Fuji RVP (presumably Velvia?).

    >
    >Velvia scans great, we've made excellent prints up to 20x24" with Nikon 8000
    >scans of Velvia, so that's not the problem.
    >
    >Keep at it, you'll get it solved.
    >
    >Bill



    Nobody
    nobody nowhere, Oct 14, 2003
    #13
  14. nobody nowhere

    Frank ess Guest

    "nobody nowhere" <> wrote in message
    news:pKo9kIAHD0i$...
    > OK. 1.15 am London time. I have fiddled a little more, and the
    > conclusions seem to be as follows:-
    >
    > - The Nikon 8000 scanner has been acquitted. The so-called "bands" do
    > not appear on the monitor screen. Bill, I have lost the $100 price,
    > however, I did not mention to you that I always scan at 14 bits anyway.
    > As you suspected from the outset, this was not a case of the 8000
    > "banding".
    >
    > - Bill suspected that the trouble might perhaps stem from some Photoshop
    > manipulation. Again, if following those manipulations (lighting up a
    > dark area adjacent to a white area with levels) the "banding" is not on
    > the monitor, I believe that this is not the problem.
    >
    > - On the latest attempt the "banding" became even more noticeable and
    > bizarre, it took the form of thick dark circular lines affecting that
    > part of the selected dark areas, which had been processed in Photoshop
    > (levels, see above). (previously I had initially horizontal lines, and
    > then, when I turned the picture 90 degrees, as advised by someone in
    > this NG, I got both vertical and horizontal lines across the processed
    > area). However, as I have just said all this happens on the print, I
    > cannot see those thick dark circular lines on the monitor.
    >
    > - Bill and others who suspected the printer might well be right, but
    > this is not good news. If there is a "slight printer head
    > misalignment", as Bill thinks, probably rightly, the price of putting
    > that right in Europe might be equal to the price of a new printer in US.
    > I did all the nozzle cleaning, vertical alignments, etc. and still have
    > the problem. I would be tempted to wait for the Epson 4000, however,
    > would that printer necessarily be free from this type of problem? And
    > what should I do in the meantime? Shall I go for a Canon, as someone
    > suggested or implied? Or a 2200, which however would be silly with the
    > 4000 round the corner. What a pity, because I still think that the 1290
    > is an excellent printer. Thanks in advance for your comments.


    Before I'd do that, I might get the newest, heaviest-duty connector cable,
    computer to printer, and make sure it is routed away from power cables and
    other potential interferers, be certain all the components of the system are
    well-grounded, and try again. If you haven't already done that.

    More magic than science in that electro-magnetic stuff, my view.

    Frank ess
    Frank ess, Oct 14, 2003
    #14
  15. nobody nowhere

    Guest

    i had a similar problem, and on the advice from a knowledgeable
    source, i converted the tif to a bmp and the banding disappeared
    ....doesn't make any sense, but it worked ...

    steve

    On Mon, 13 Oct 2003 22:51:42 +0100, nobody nowhere
    <> wrote:

    >Thank you very much, I have been using original Epson cartridges. I am
    >still trying to make absolutely certain that it is the printer and not
    >the scanner. You have now put ideas into my head, the 1290 is
    >undoubtedly a great printer, but it is not problem-free, and it costs a
    >lot to run.
    >
    >In article <yLAib.175973$
    >>, PiZzazA <> writes
    >>Sound like that you are using Epson printers. They are notorious for banding
    >>if you do not use their OEM ink. It is very difficult to fix the problem
    >>yourselves no matter how many times you do clean the nozzles with the
    >>utilities. I dumped Epson because I had the same problem with two printers
    >>that were less than 6 month old. I am happy owner of Canon printers now.
    >>
    >>To repair this problem, you may want to search the web for help. There were
    >>talks about using steam etc. You can also buy cleaning cartredges for it.
    >>But they are not cheap.
    >>
    >>"nobody nowhere" <> wrote in message
    >>news:i5$GYJAZuni$...
    >>> Further to my article below, replacing the black cartridge did not work.
    >>> After I lighten up with levels, I get a number of very visible dark
    >>> horizontal lines of various thickness and distances between them. The
    >>> pattern is thin and frequent horizontal lines towards the bottom and top
    >>> end of the problem area, whilst the lines are getting thicker and rarer
    >>> towards the middle of the problem area. I cannot post the relevant part
    >>> of the picture, as suggested by Bill, because these lines do not seem to
    >>> appear on the monitor, as far as I can tell, and even if they were
    >>> there, they would be far less noticeable than on the print. What do I
    >>> do? Thanks in advance, in particular to Bill.
    >>>
    >>> In article <TGy5wIAzZmi$>, nobody nowhere
    >>> <> writes
    >>> >Thank you Bill, you do look after me! Today by 3am I was still at it
    >>> >trying to ascertain the cause. ICE is on. The film is medium format,
    >>> >Fuji RVP (presumably Velvia?). This has never happened to me before,
    >>> >after I ticked "superfine". If I don't try to lighten up the dark side
    >>> >of the picture (with levels), there is no banding on the print, however,
    >>> >the amount of black seems to me too much. When I look more carefully at
    >>> >the monitor (CRT), and magnify the image, there seems to be no banding,
    >>> >so I assume it might be a printer problem. But in this case, what kind
    >>> >of problem? The nozzle check, and other "utility" checks were ok. I
    >>> >shall try to replace the black cartridge with a new one, just in case.
    >>> >Is it possible that the banding is there, on the monitor screen, but I
    >>> >cannot see it even at high magnification? The screen is reasonably
    >>> >calibrated, I think. If the problem does not go away, I shall post a
    >>> >sample for other 8000 owners to comment, as you suggest. Thank you
    >>> >very much once again.
    >>> >
    >>> >In article <>, Bill Hilton
    >>> ><> writes
    >>> >>>From: nobody nowhere
    >>> >>
    >>> >>>I seem unable to get rid of banding. 1/6 of the picture, on the left,
    >>> >>>dark tree. The rest of the picture is a white building. CCD scanning,
    >>> >>>superfine is ticked.
    >>> >>
    >>> >>If you have 'superfine' checked then it's not banding as the rest of us

    >>know
    >>> >>the term. Not saying you don't have a real problem, just that as it's

    >>defined
    >>> >>'banding' is only possible with superfine unchecked so it's likely

    >>something
    >>> >>else.
    >>> >>
    >>> >>Do you have ICE on? Is the film Kodachrome?
    >>> >>
    >>> >>Can you post a sample crop of this scan showing the problem so other

    >>8000
    >>> >>owners can see it and offer other suggestions?
    >>> >>
    >>> >>>Rather disappointing, since I was
    >>> >>>assured in the past that it was enough to tick "superfine" and the
    >>> >>>banding will go away, and it did on every other similar occasion until
    >>> >>>now.
    >>> >>
    >>> >>How often do you see 'banding' with superfine unchecked? For most of us

    >>it's
    >>> >>very rare, maybe one in a hundred scans. Some people never see it. If

    >>your
    >>> >>ratio is a lot higher than 1% then maybe your machine is way out of

    >>calibration
    >>> >>or something?
    >>> >>
    >>> >>Bill
    >>> >
    >>> >
    >>> >Nobody
    >>> >
    >>> >
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Nobody

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    >Joseph White
    >
    >Whilst we run an anti-virus program on all outgoing e-mails, we are not liable
    >for any loss or damage which might be caused by virus infection, and the
    >Recipient is strongly advised to run their own anti-virus software as well.
    , Oct 14, 2003
    #15
  16. nobody nowhere

    PiZzazA Guest

    If it is truly a printer problem, banding will occur in most prints
    (sometimes, it occurs randomly). If you only see banding for this image, you
    may still want to look for other causes. If you like to post you image
    somewhere, many of us can help you to figure out why.

    "nobody nowhere" <> wrote in message
    news:pKo9kIAHD0i$...
    > OK. 1.15 am London time. I have fiddled a little more, and the
    > conclusions seem to be as follows:-
    >
    > - The Nikon 8000 scanner has been acquitted. The so-called "bands" do
    > not appear on the monitor screen. Bill, I have lost the $100 price,
    > however, I did not mention to you that I always scan at 14 bits anyway.
    > As you suspected from the outset, this was not a case of the 8000
    > "banding".
    >
    > - Bill suspected that the trouble might perhaps stem from some Photoshop
    > manipulation. Again, if following those manipulations (lighting up a
    > dark area adjacent to a white area with levels) the "banding" is not on
    > the monitor, I believe that this is not the problem.
    >
    > - On the latest attempt the "banding" became even more noticeable and
    > bizarre, it took the form of thick dark circular lines affecting that
    > part of the selected dark areas, which had been processed in Photoshop
    > (levels, see above). (previously I had initially horizontal lines, and
    > then, when I turned the picture 90 degrees, as advised by someone in
    > this NG, I got both vertical and horizontal lines across the processed
    > area). However, as I have just said all this happens on the print, I
    > cannot see those thick dark circular lines on the monitor.
    >
    > - Bill and others who suspected the printer might well be right, but
    > this is not good news. If there is a "slight printer head
    > misalignment", as Bill thinks, probably rightly, the price of putting
    > that right in Europe might be equal to the price of a new printer in US.
    > I did all the nozzle cleaning, vertical alignments, etc. and still have
    > the problem. I would be tempted to wait for the Epson 4000, however,
    > would that printer necessarily be free from this type of problem? And
    > what should I do in the meantime? Shall I go for a Canon, as someone
    > suggested or implied? Or a 2200, which however would be silly with the
    > 4000 round the corner. What a pity, because I still think that the 1290
    > is an excellent printer. Thanks in advance for your comments.
    >
    > In article <>, Bill Hilton
    > <> writes
    > >>From: nobody nowhere

    > >
    > >>After I lighten up with levels, I get a number of very visible dark
    > >>horizontal lines of various thickness and distances between them.
    > >> ...
    > >> If I don't try to lighten up the dark side
    > >>of the picture (with levels), there is no banding on the print

    > >
    > >Definitely not the *banding* problem with the scanner, so it's either the
    > >printer or you're introducing banding during post-processing.
    > >
    > >Can you print the file on someone else's printer, or get a print of a

    crop of
    > >the darker area at a cheapo place nearby? (Here in the US one can take

    the
    > >file to Sam's or Wal-Mart and get a small print for a few cents, for

    example).
    > >This might tell you if the file has been damaged or if it's the printer.

    If
    > >you're getting a small print done then crop a section of the starting

    image so
    > >the small print is proportionally the same as your big print (in other

    words if
    > >you're printing 8x10 and seeing the problem then crop 1/4 of your file

    and have
    > >it printed 4x5 at the same resolution so it's the same as a 4x5" section

    from
    > >the original since a problem could be visible or not at different print
    > >resolutions).
    > >
    > >If it's the printer (I think you have the Epson 1280, right?) it might be

    a
    > >slight head misalignment with the black nozzles, which you can check for

    in the
    > >Utilities, just run the head alignment test. You might also print three

    times
    > >at 720, 1440 and 2880 dpi and see if it gets better or worse (it might go

    away
    > >or be minimized at 2880 for example and be very noticeable at 720). If

    it
    > >occurs in just one area you can crop this and print on the same piece of

    paper
    > >easily enough to avoid wasting paper.
    > >
    > >If it's not the printer and you don't see the problem before you make

    your
    > >edits then it might be banding introduced during your Photoshop

    maneuvers.
    > >Check the histogram and see if you have wide comb-like gaps in the

    shadows
    > >after edits. If you do then maybe try to re-scan in 14 bit/channel mode

    and
    > >make the edits there, then convert to 8 bits and print. If this is

    really the
    > >cause of the problems then you could win $100 in the "Prove 16 bits is

    better
    > >than 8 bits" contest (grin), so it's not a common thing. But worth

    checking
    > >out.
    > >
    > >I'd put the odds at 90% on a slight printer head misalignment and 10% on

    a "16
    > >vs 8 bit" editing problem.
    > >
    > >>The film is medium format, Fuji RVP (presumably Velvia?).

    > >
    > >Velvia scans great, we've made excellent prints up to 20x24" with Nikon

    8000
    > >scans of Velvia, so that's not the problem.
    > >
    > >Keep at it, you'll get it solved.
    > >
    > >Bill

    >
    >
    > Nobody
    PiZzazA, Oct 14, 2003
    #16
  17. I rang Epson, and, rightly or wrongly, they told me that if other parts
    of the picture are ok (which they are) and only the part processed in
    Photoshop was affected, this was more likely to be a Photoshop problem
    than a printer problem. I was advised to see whether the problem occurs
    again with other scans, and how frequently, and then come back to them.
    I tried again, with the same picture, but did not go too far in levels,
    in other words, I lightened up the relevant part to a lesser extent and
    the "banding" did not occur. I am not sure how to interpret this:
    should the printer be able to cope with whatever I did in levels, or are
    there exceptions? Did I ask too much of it? I scanned another picture,
    where the dark part was on the other side. The relevant part of the
    image was less dark to begin with, in other words, I did not have to use
    levels to the same extent, and there was no "banding", which seems to be
    good news. The Epson man was adamant that the "banding", perhaps as a
    result of Photoshop manipulation, might still be there, although the
    monitor would not reveal it, which I find difficult to accept.

    I saved all the variations of the offending pictures, but don't know how
    or where to post them. Should I have a web page for this purpose,
    surely I would not be allowed to post them in this NG. How would I go
    about this? It would be interesting to see whether or not other printers
    reproduce the banding, which, as I said in previous posts, is not
    detectable on the monitor. Another problem is that these are huge
    files, about 300mb (medium format scanned at 14 bits). However, I
    suppose that I could make the files smaller, but would this not affect
    the "banding"?

    In article <tiVib.1011$>,
    PiZzazA <> writes
    >If it is truly a printer problem, banding will occur in most prints
    >(sometimes, it occurs randomly). If you only see banding for this image, you
    >may still want to look for other causes. If you like to post you image
    >somewhere, many of us can help you to figure out why.
    >
    >"nobody nowhere" <> wrote in message
    >news:pKo9kIAHD0i$...
    >> OK. 1.15 am London time. I have fiddled a little more, and the
    >> conclusions seem to be as follows:-
    >>
    >> - The Nikon 8000 scanner has been acquitted. The so-called "bands" do
    >> not appear on the monitor screen. Bill, I have lost the $100 price,
    >> however, I did not mention to you that I always scan at 14 bits anyway.
    >> As you suspected from the outset, this was not a case of the 8000
    >> "banding".
    >> >Bill

    >>
    >>
    >> Nobody

    >
    >



    Nobody
    nobody nowhere, Oct 14, 2003
    #17
  18. The offending pictures could be found at

    www.jwhite.demon.co.uk

    There is a dark tree on the left, with lady and child etc. On both
    pictures I get different types of banding on the left dark side, only
    when I print with the Epson 1290, at full resolution (800 dpi or so).
    for the web side, the resolution is of course much less, ie. 180 dpi, to
    give your printers a chance... Thank you all for your interest, and
    comments.

    In article <vIuVEJAYjGj$>, nobody nowhere
    <> writes

    > If you only see banding for this image, you
    >>may still want to look for other causes. If you like to post you image
    >>somewhere, many of us can help you to figure out why.
    >>
    >>"nobody nowhere" <> wrote in message
    >>news:pKo9kIAHD0i$...
    >>> OK. 1.15 am London time. I have fiddled a little more, and the
    >>> conclusions seem to be as follows:-
    >>>
    >>> - The Nikon 8000 scanner has been acquitted. The so-called "bands" do
    >>> not appear on the monitor screen. Bill, I have lost the $100 price,
    >>> however, I did not mention to you that I always scan at 14 bits anyway.
    >>> As you suspected from the outset, this was not a case of the 8000
    >>> "banding".
    >>> >Bill
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> Nobody

    >>
    >>

    >
    >
    >Nobody



    Nobody
    nobody nowhere, Oct 14, 2003
    #18
  19. Now for the anticlimax: when I print the offending pictures from my own
    web site, as saved in my computer, I get no banding. The web pictures
    have of course a reduced resolution (180 dpi). The original pictures
    have a huge resolution something like 800 dpi (for 10 inches by 8
    inches; they were meant to be printed much larger, which accounts for
    the unnecessary large file). Could this, at least partly, explain why
    the Epson was not able to cope? Some time ago, somebody in this NG
    argued very strongly that too much resolution is not desirable and can
    even be harmful, but I don't know.

    In article <PpgNsKAiDHj$>, nobody nowhere
    <> writes
    >The offending pictures could be found at
    >
    >www.jwhite.demon.co.uk
    >
    >There is a dark tree on the left, with lady and child etc. On both
    >pictures I get different types of banding on the left dark side, only
    >when I print with the Epson 1290, at full resolution (800 dpi or so).
    >for the web side, the resolution is of course much less, ie. 180 dpi, to
    >give your printers a chance... Thank you all for your interest, and
    >comments.
    >
    >In article <vIuVEJAYjGj$>, nobody nowhere
    ><> writes
    >
    >> If you only see banding for this image, you
    >>>may still want to look for other causes. If you like to post you image
    >>>somewhere, many of us can help you to figure out why.
    >>>
    >>>"nobody nowhere" <> wrote in message
    >>>news:pKo9kIAHD0i$...
    >>>> OK. 1.15 am London time. I have fiddled a little more, and the
    >>>> conclusions seem to be as follows:-
    >>>>
    >>>> - The Nikon 8000 scanner has been acquitted. The so-called "bands" do
    >>>> not appear on the monitor screen. Bill, I have lost the $100 price,
    >>>> however, I did not mention to you that I always scan at 14 bits anyway.
    >>>> As you suspected from the outset, this was not a case of the 8000
    >>>> "banding".
    >>>> >Bill
    >>>>
    >>>>
    >>>> Nobody
    >>>
    >>>

    >>
    >>
    >>Nobody

    >
    >
    >Nobody


    Nobody
    nobody nowhere, Oct 14, 2003
    #19
  20. nobody nowhere

    Rafe B. Guest

    On Tue, 14 Oct 2003 22:55:46 +0100, nobody nowhere
    <> wrote:

    >The offending pictures could be found at
    >
    >www.jwhite.demon.co.uk
    >
    >There is a dark tree on the left, with lady and child etc. On both
    >pictures I get different types of banding on the left dark side, only
    >when I print with the Epson 1290, at full resolution (800 dpi or so).
    >for the web side, the resolution is of course much less, ie. 180 dpi, to
    >give your printers a chance... Thank you all for your interest, and
    >comments.



    There is indeed some horizontal streaking in the dark
    area on kenwoodhouse-3.jpg. But in general that area
    is a mess. I have a hunch you (or someone) did some
    fairly extreme corrections to "recover" that area from
    something approaching pure black. It is extremely
    grainy and noisy.

    There's also a rough angled streak of very dark
    pixels near the left edge that runs more or less
    vertically (but at a slight angle from pure vertical)
    Again, I think these result from extreme tonal
    manipulation.

    I also see a mildly sloppy cutout used to insert
    a blue sky that wasn't there originally. But that's
    another matter.

    Not sure any of this can be blamed on the scanner,
    much less the printer.

    There is an issue on the LS-8000 which is "fixed"
    by turning on SuperFine Scan. But the example
    you've shown is something quite different.

    Not sure if this problem is fixable by any means.
    I suspect if this is a slide, it's near-black at the left
    edge, or if it's a negative, it's extremely thin at that
    edge. My guess is it's a negative.


    rafe b.
    http://www.terrapinphoto.com
    Rafe B., Oct 15, 2003
    #20
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