Newbie question: If you don't host a website, and....

Discussion in 'Computer Security' started by dave, Jan 27, 2006.

  1. dave

    dave Guest

    you are browsing with Firefox under linux OS, do you need a firewall?
    If so, why?

    thanks,

    dave
    dave, Jan 27, 2006
    #1
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  2. dave

    Winged Guest

    dave wrote:
    > you are browsing with Firefox under linux OS, do you need a firewall?
    > If so, why?
    >
    > thanks,
    >
    > dave
    >

    Yes! A firewall is required to prevent a local host from a variety of
    exploits. Firewalls do little in preventing exploit by web browsers in
    the nix environment however the idea is only to expose ports externally
    those hosts you wish to communicate with and block all others. There
    is little overhead in nix firewalls and well worth the effort in
    protection from various worms and other potential exploits. While web
    browsing is one point of exploitation, it is not the only method of
    exploitation. If one watches their network external interface, one will
    see frequent probes on a specific IP address. A firewall is only one
    layer of security. Depending on local system configuration their are a
    number of potential entry points in a typical nix configuration. It is
    easy to make an "opps" in configuring a system, especially for a newbie,
    and a firewall will help protect you from yourself.

    There is a good article on how to harden nix systems at:

    http://www.puschitz.com/SecuringLinux.shtml

    Hope this helps.

    Winged
    Winged, Jan 27, 2006
    #2
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  3. dave

    Todd H. Guest

    "dave" <> writes:
    > you are browsing with Firefox under linux OS, do you need a firewall?
    > If so, why?


    The ipchains software firewall, if setup and properly configured on
    Linux can give you excellent protection.

    However, misconfiguration is easy to do (e.g. how much do you know
    about ipchains rule writing?), future exploits are always a
    possibility, so for the whopping $50 it costs to get a router with a
    firewall in it, why not have the extra layer of protection?
    http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16833124001


    Best Regards,
    --
    Todd H.
    http://www.toddh.net/
    Todd H., Jan 27, 2006
    #3
  4. dave

    Moe Trin Guest

    On 27 Jan 2006, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.computer.security, in article
    <>, dave wrote:

    >you are browsing with Firefox under linux OS, do you need a firewall?


    man netstat you want 'netstat -tupan'

    What _else_ are you serving? Then look at the several HOWTOs that
    explain how to disable those services - a hint - they have the word
    'Security' in the title. You also want to disable Java except
    for trusted sites.

    >If so, why?


    echo 1 > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/icmp_echo_ignore_all Ignore all pings
    echo "1" > /proc/sys/net/ipv4/icmp_ignore_bogus_error_responses

    HOWEVER - Firewalls can't protect you from doing dumb things.

    Old guy
    Moe Trin, Jan 27, 2006
    #4
  5. dave

    dave Guest

    Winged wrote : "It is easy to make an "opps" in configuring a system,
    especially for a newbie, and a firewall will help protect you from
    yourself."

    ans: Yes, I need all the help I can get...

    Todd H wrote: "However, misconfiguration is easy to do (e.g. how much
    do you know about ipchains rule writing?),"...

    ans: Nothing

    "so for the whopping $50 it costs to get a router with a firewall in
    it, why not have the extra layer of protection?"

    That sounds well worth it to me !! I'm running Xandros 3.0 Linux
    very happily, with a NetCard in the PCMCIA slot. The cable
    goes to an old Bell Atlantic DSL modem, which of course connects
    to the telephone line (the ISP provider is Verizon).

    Would you kindly suggest what router to buy, and how I should
    connect it up? I would guess that it is between NetCard and
    DSL Modem. Right? Is there a chance that the router would
    screw up my presently-OK Verizon connection and send me back
    to square ONE ?? Verizon wasted hours of my time, before
    finally kicking me up to Tech Level 3 and getting me
    connected in 3 minutes. I don't want to start all over again.

    Thanks for your patience, and in advance for your advice,

    dave
    dave, Jan 28, 2006
    #5
  6. dave

    Guest

    dave wrote:
    > Winged wrote : "It is easy to make an "opps" in configuring a system,
    > especially for a newbie, and a firewall will help protect you from
    > yourself."
    >
    > ans: Yes, I need all the help I can get...
    >
    > Todd H wrote: "However, misconfiguration is easy to do (e.g. how much
    > do you know about ipchains rule writing?),"...
    >
    > ans: Nothing
    >
    > "so for the whopping $50 it costs to get a router with a firewall in
    > it, why not have the extra layer of protection?"
    >
    > That sounds well worth it to me !! I'm running Xandros 3.0 Linux
    > very happily, with a NetCard in the PCMCIA slot. The cable
    > goes to an old Bell Atlantic DSL modem, which of course connects
    > to the telephone line (the ISP provider is Verizon).
    >
    > Would you kindly suggest what router to buy, and how I should
    > connect it up? I would guess that it is between NetCard and
    > DSL Modem. Right? Is there a chance that the router would
    > screw up my presently-OK Verizon connection and send me back
    > to square ONE ?? Verizon wasted hours of my time, before
    > finally kicking me up to Tech Level 3 and getting me
    > connected in 3 minutes. I don't want to start all over again.
    >
    > Thanks for your patience, and in advance for your advice,
    >


    not really the router screwing up your connection. If a level 3
    technician solved your problem then clearly it was you that didn't know
    how to set up your current router. (you along with the lower
    technicians)

    So if you got a new router then you might have the same problems trying
    to set it up.

    These Home Routers already block incoming connections by default -
    similar to a firewall blocking incoming attacks. Maybe your home router
    even has a firewall built in on top of that.


    Meaning that even if you were running a web server then it'd be very
    secure in the ridiculous sense that nobody outside your network will be
    able to connect to it. Because your Router will block incoming
    connections.

    I don't see such a case for you getting a new router - yet.

    I'm suprised that you're using linux if you're afraid of learning how
    to configure a router to connect to the net. I guess something
    traumatic happened to you whilst using Windows and instead of using
    firefox in windows, you went all the way and used linux. Could still
    be a good decision, but if you use linux then I think you should be
    less worried about learning stuff like configuring your router.
    , Jan 29, 2006
    #6
  7. dave

    dave Guest

    Thanks, from dave. That is a helpful reply that I can understand. I'm
    a biologist, not an engineer; and I started trying to get rid of M$ in
    the
    late 90's, because I was wasting so much time trying to fix Win
    problems.
    They said linux was safe, stable, and "free"; so I started trying as a
    newbie
    and wasted a lot more time (on *early* releases of Caldera, Mandrake,
    Suse,
    Debian etc). I had no background in unix, and wasted more time
    learning
    some "Pi" or "emacs" or something. Someone said he would help if I
    would
    send him a 'log' of something. I did. Then, I realized that it had
    ALL of my
    passwords. Hmm. Was that helpful?

    Then, I heard someone quip that "Linux was free, if you placed no value
    on your time". Frustration. I sought help from newbie newsgroups.
    Someone
    said that we professionals (who were not engineers) should class-action
    sue Bill Gates for the cumulative value of our lost time. Then he
    wouldn't be a
    billionaire anymore. Somebody had already thrown a pie at his face in
    Paris.

    So, I *really* appreciate simple,clear advice; instead of referral to
    some
    arcane site where I don't understand anything. Thanks again, dave
    dave, Jan 29, 2006
    #7
  8. dave

    VanShania Guest

    What about this "NAT" ?

    --
    XP2600@171 fsb@1.65 Volts,
    AIW9600XT, A7N8X-X
    WD120gb + 80gb HD 8mb buffers
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    Thermaltake Lanfire, 420 Watt PS
    Micrsoft Sidewinder Precision 2 Joystick
    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > dave wrote:
    > > Winged wrote : "It is easy to make an "opps" in configuring a system,
    > > especially for a newbie, and a firewall will help protect you from
    > > yourself."
    > >
    > > ans: Yes, I need all the help I can get...
    > >
    > > Todd H wrote: "However, misconfiguration is easy to do (e.g. how much
    > > do you know about ipchains rule writing?),"...
    > >
    > > ans: Nothing
    > >
    > > "so for the whopping $50 it costs to get a router with a firewall in
    > > it, why not have the extra layer of protection?"
    > >
    > > That sounds well worth it to me !! I'm running Xandros 3.0 Linux
    > > very happily, with a NetCard in the PCMCIA slot. The cable
    > > goes to an old Bell Atlantic DSL modem, which of course connects
    > > to the telephone line (the ISP provider is Verizon).
    > >
    > > Would you kindly suggest what router to buy, and how I should
    > > connect it up? I would guess that it is between NetCard and
    > > DSL Modem. Right? Is there a chance that the router would
    > > screw up my presently-OK Verizon connection and send me back
    > > to square ONE ?? Verizon wasted hours of my time, before
    > > finally kicking me up to Tech Level 3 and getting me
    > > connected in 3 minutes. I don't want to start all over again.
    > >
    > > Thanks for your patience, and in advance for your advice,
    > >

    >
    > not really the router screwing up your connection. If a level 3
    > technician solved your problem then clearly it was you that didn't know
    > how to set up your current router. (you along with the lower
    > technicians)
    >
    > So if you got a new router then you might have the same problems trying
    > to set it up.
    >
    > These Home Routers already block incoming connections by default -
    > similar to a firewall blocking incoming attacks. Maybe your home router
    > even has a firewall built in on top of that.
    >
    >
    > Meaning that even if you were running a web server then it'd be very
    > secure in the ridiculous sense that nobody outside your network will be
    > able to connect to it. Because your Router will block incoming
    > connections.
    >
    > I don't see such a case for you getting a new router - yet.
    >
    > I'm suprised that you're using linux if you're afraid of learning how
    > to configure a router to connect to the net. I guess something
    > traumatic happened to you whilst using Windows and instead of using
    > firefox in windows, you went all the way and used linux. Could still
    > be a good decision, but if you use linux then I think you should be
    > less worried about learning stuff like configuring your router.
    >
    VanShania, Jan 29, 2006
    #8
  9. dave

    Todd H. Guest

    "dave" <> writes:
    > "so for the whopping $50 it costs to get a router with a firewall in
    > it, why not have the extra layer of protection?"
    >
    > That sounds well worth it to me !! I'm running Xandros 3.0 Linux
    > very happily, with a NetCard in the PCMCIA slot. The cable
    > goes to an old Bell Atlantic DSL modem, which of course connects
    > to the telephone line (the ISP provider is Verizon).
    >
    > Would you kindly suggest what router to buy,


    Linksys BEFSR 41 is a tried and true one and costs $50 or less.
    newegg.com is a nice place to buy from.

    > and how I should connect it up? I would guess that it is between
    > NetCard and DSL Modem. Right?


    Yup.

    > Is there a chance that the router would screw up my presently-OK
    > Verizon connection and send me back to square ONE ?? Verizon wasted
    > hours of my time, before finally kicking me up to Tech Level 3 and
    > getting me connected in 3 minutes. I don't want to start all over
    > again.


    Possibly. But these things are pretty darned easy to deal with these
    days, and the instructions are pretty clear. I've never not been
    able to make one work. For DSL you may have specify a username and
    password in the router if you PPPoE style connection, but the
    software that comes with teh linksys makes this stuff very easy to
    configure.

    > Thanks for your patience, and in advance for your advice,


    No problem--a well thought out question from a reasonable person is
    always enjoyable to help answer.

    Best Regards,
    --
    Todd H.
    http://www.toddh.net/
    Todd H., Jan 29, 2006
    #9
  10. dave

    Brad Guest

    NAT (Network Address Translation) similar to and often confused with
    PAT (Port Address Translation) is a method used by modern routers to
    translate internal (or Local) addresses to outise (or Global)
    addresses. The router simply maps internal address to the external
    addresses, and translates them when required

    Eg. in NAT the router will translate your 192.168.1.3 to its "actual"
    global ip address of 15.0.0.1

    Inside Local Address
    192.168.1.3

    Inside Global
    15.0.0.1

    Outside Global
    18.0.0.5:


    This is often confused with "Overloaded NAT" or PAT (Port Address
    Translations), this allows several computers to use a single or limited
    number of external ip addresses. It does this by mapping not only the
    IP addresses but the Port Numbers as well. There are currently 65535
    usable port numbers and therefore allows thousands of users in large
    orginsations to access the internet. This adds an extra security
    feature of preventing outside hosts from making connections with the
    internal LAN, and the addresses have not been mapped unless an active
    connection has been made between the hosts, (but a Virus/Trojan etc can
    still make connections from your machine on your behalf and therefore a
    software based firewall is still required in many situations).

    Sorry for not being overly clear just drop me an email if you would
    like any more info.
    Brad, Jan 29, 2006
    #10
  11. dave

    Brad Guest

    Oh, and sorry I forgot to mention that many routers label this PAT as a
    "firewall" and it performs its job very well but in my opinion does not
    substitute a software firewall like zone alarm if your a windows user.
    PAT/NAT wont protect you entirely I know guys who work just programming
    Access Lists to be used with PAT/NAT and firewalls.

    Most routers have a version of PAT/NAT if they have more than one
    connection (and permit more than one host connected at the same time)
    eg 4 LAN ports or an Wireless access point. Its just they may not have
    the marketing department to write "FIREWALL" on the box!
    Brad, Jan 29, 2006
    #11
  12. dave

    Guest

    dave wrote:
    > Thanks, from dave. That is a helpful reply that I can understand. I'm
    > a biologist, not an engineer; and I started trying to get rid of M$ in
    > the
    > late 90's, because I was wasting so much time trying to fix Win
    > problems.
    > They said linux was safe, stable, and "free"; so I started trying as a
    > newbie
    > and wasted a lot more time (on *early* releases of Caldera, Mandrake,
    > Suse,
    > Debian etc). I had no background in unix, and wasted more time
    > learning
    > some "Pi" or "emacs" or something. Someone said he would help if I
    > would
    > send him a 'log' of something. I did. Then, I realized that it had
    > ALL of my
    > passwords. Hmm. Was that helpful?
    >
    > Then, I heard someone quip that "Linux was free, if you placed no value
    > on your time". Frustration. I sought help from newbie newsgroups.
    > Someone
    > said that we professionals (who were not engineers) should class-action
    > sue Bill Gates for the cumulative value of our lost time. Then he
    > wouldn't be a
    > billionaire anymore. Somebody had already thrown a pie at his face in
    > Paris.
    >
    > So, I *really* appreciate simple,clear advice; instead of referral to
    > some
    > arcane site where I don't understand anything. Thanks again, dave


    glad I could help.

    I have a friend , very well respected in academia, he uses Linux for
    science work. He wouldn't touch emacs or vi. He told me that he uses
    WINE in linux which let him run windows software in linux. Though now,
    he says that Open Office for Linux has reached a level where it's very
    good. He used to hate the linux GUI, though now he says that KDE has
    got better. So, it is possible for Linux to do non computer work as
    efficiently as Windows. Though that particular individual is very
    unusual. A bit of a James Bond character, taught himself to drive, a
    genius at doing anything in the most efficient way possible. Works in
    many diff fields of science and still has time left. He's not a linux
    wiz, but he gets things working and he gets things done. He is
    obviously an exception.
    **point being, it is possible to work well in linux , if you wanted to,
    then perhaps some of his methods would help **

    Most of the people that use linux are not people that don't value their
    time. But they are people whose job it is to maintain systems. Or whose
    main Goal in life is studying systems , learning how things work. Some
    people < 30 do this for many years even at the expense of not having a
    job.

    I work in windows at the moment. I have used windows for years, and
    have learnt a few things that allow me to use it without problems. I'd
    happily share my tips if you choose to use windows again.
    **So, my point there, is that there are ways to use windows where you
    won't run into problems. It's alot easier than learning linux and
    getting around linux problems**

    I was using Windows 98 until Jan 2005. I (rightly) put off installing
    Windows XP because I knew it'd have issues, and I was comfortable with
    Windows 98. So, rather than switch over to win xp and get frustrated,
    I set up another machine.
    With one computer running windows 98 and another running Windows XP, I
    had a far stabler, more reliable environment. Just as I have a dial up
    connection (as a backup) and a 'broadband' connection. Now i'm
    comfortable with Windows XP. I put Win XP on both computers.

    I will learn linux, because a major goal in my life is understanding
    computers. But, I'm going to wait until I can afford to set up a bunch
    of computers. I have studied a bit about networks - routers, switches,
    firewalls ,tcp/ip, and am interested only in the command line. Setting
    up *nix on a few machines - whilst perhaps having on or two other
    windows computers around, will be good. My practical experiments with
    computesr, won't get in the way of the computesr I use for 'working' -
    typing notes and thoughts about stuff I have learnt .

    When a company changes from one system to another, they often run both
    systems, the current and the potential new system, in parallel before
    making the changeover.

    It is very worthwhile to have - say - 2 computers. Connected up to
    one monitor keyboard and mouse. This can be done with a 2 port KVM
    Switch. Or even forget the KVM switch, and just have 2 boxes. If one
    is giving you software or OS trouble, then use the other one. At
    worse you'll have to reinstall the OS and software of the one with
    problems. Not really a problem if you've got another computer to work
    on. You don't need to wait around doing nothing as things reinstall on
    the troubled computer.

    With Windows, some peoples' computers have gone slow from malware. That
    is generally from using internet explorer to browse sites containing
    either porn or cracked software. Those sites are often doubly dubious ,
    exploit internet explorer and install malware on the computer.

    Firefox would avoid most of that malware

    It might be something to worry about if you to internet banking. Or if
    it has slowed down your computer making it too much of a nuisance to
    use.

    If it's a nuisance, and you want to take action, then, at worst, you'd
    have to reinstall windows. But you needen't even havae to do that
    ever.
    I recommend having all data within one directory so that it can be
    backed up easily,
    And also, a program like Norton Ghost. I started using it at v9. It's
    GUI based and works very well. When the hard drive is as you want it,
    windows running flawlessly, all your progarms installed. You make an
    image of the hard drive. Then if things go wrong, you just write the
    image back. All v. quick. Don't even have to reinstall windows!
    (of course, this works for linux too)
























    The people that use linux for their real work
    , Jan 30, 2006
    #12
  13. dave

    Moe Trin Guest

    On 29 Jan 2006, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.computer.security, in article
    <>,
    wrote:
    >I will learn linux, because a major goal in my life is understanding
    >computers. But, I'm going to wait until I can afford to set up a bunch
    >of computers. I have studied a bit about networks - routers, switches,
    >firewalls ,tcp/ip, and am interested only in the command line.


    Google for a thing called a "Live CD" version of Linux. Some of the
    many names are 'BEERnix', 'Damnsmall', 'Dyne:bolic', 'Gibraltar', 'Jollix',
    'Knoppix', 'Lamppix', 'LinEspa', 'Mepis', and 'Slax'. This gives you a
    full Linux operating system, but because the CD is not 'read-write', you
    can't easily save your files unless you use a floppy, or are willing to
    save to your hard drive. It won't touch your hardware unless you
    specifically make it do so. There are also floppy only systems, though
    given the small size of a floppy, you can only put so much "stuff" on one.
    Toms 'Root n Boot' (tomsrtbt) is an example of that, and there are others.
    See http://www.distrowatch.com/

    >I recommend having all data within one directory so that it can be
    >backed up easily,


    [compton ~]$ find . -type f | wc -l
    4758
    [compton ~]$

    That says I've got 4758 files in my home directories. That would be
    rather useless on one screen. Doesn't your backup scheme understand
    the word 'recursive'?

    [compton ~]$ find . -type d | wc -l
    205
    [compton ~]$

    Here, there are 205 directories in my home directory, with everything
    from projects I am working on, to mail and personal configuration files
    for my browser, editor, news and mail tools. No need to dump all of that
    into one pile.

    Old guy
    Moe Trin, Jan 30, 2006
    #13
  14. dave

    Guest

    Moe Trin wrote:
    > On 29 Jan 2006, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.computer.security, in article
    > <>,
    > wrote:
    > >I will learn linux, because a major goal in my life is understanding
    > >computers. But, I'm going to wait until I can afford to set up a bunch
    > >of computers. I have studied a bit about networks - routers, switches,
    > >firewalls ,tcp/ip, and am interested only in the command line.

    >
    > Google for a thing called a "Live CD" version of Linux. Some of the
    > many names are 'BEERnix', 'Damnsmall', 'Dyne:bolic', 'Gibraltar', 'Jollix',
    > 'Knoppix', 'Lamppix', 'LinEspa', 'Mepis', and 'Slax'. This gives you a
    > full Linux operating system, but because the CD is not 'read-write', you
    > can't easily save your files unless you use a floppy, or are willing to
    > save to your hard drive. It won't touch your hardware unless you
    > specifically make it do so. There are also floppy only systems, though
    > given the small size of a floppy, you can only put so much "stuff" on one.
    > Toms 'Root n Boot' (tomsrtbt) is an example of that, and there are others.
    > See http://www.distrowatch.com/


    oh, i'm an eccentric. Computer boxes are far away from me with a KVM
    Extender. I try to avoid booting from CDs. Also, when I do play with
    *nix, i'll use some fully featured thing. Not a CD.



    > >I recommend having all data within one directory so that it can be
    > >backed up easily,

    >
    > [compton ~]$ find . -type f | wc -l
    > 4758
    > [compton ~]$
    >
    > That says I've got 4758 files in my home directories. That would be
    > rather useless on one screen. Doesn't your backup scheme understand
    > the word 'recursive'?
    >
    > [compton ~]$ find . -type d | wc -l
    > 205
    > [compton ~]$
    >
    > Here, there are 205 directories in my home directory, with everything
    > from projects I am working on, to mail and personal configuration files
    > for my browser, editor, news and mail tools. No need to dump all of that
    > into one pile.
    >


    I'm not that into linux yet, so may have misinterpreted you, but it
    sounds like a similar system to me then. When I said I have all my data
    in one directory, I didn't mean without subdirectories.

    D:\DATA>dir /ad
    ....
    44 Dir(s)
    D:\DATA>

    err, 42 actually. DOS includes "." and ".." in its count, when not in
    the root directory. I think.
    , Jan 31, 2006
    #14
  15. dave

    Winged Guest

    dave wrote:
    > Winged wrote : "It is easy to make an "opps" in configuring a system,
    > especially for a newbie, and a firewall will help protect you from
    > yourself."
    >
    > ans: Yes, I need all the help I can get...
    >
    > Todd H wrote: "However, misconfiguration is easy to do (e.g. how much
    > do you know about ipchains rule writing?),"...
    >
    > ans: Nothing
    >
    > "so for the whopping $50 it costs to get a router with a firewall in
    > it, why not have the extra layer of protection?"
    >
    > That sounds well worth it to me !! I'm running Xandros 3.0 Linux
    > very happily, with a NetCard in the PCMCIA slot. The cable
    > goes to an old Bell Atlantic DSL modem, which of course connects
    > to the telephone line (the ISP provider is Verizon).
    >
    > Would you kindly suggest what router to buy, and how I should
    > connect it up? I would guess that it is between NetCard and
    > DSL Modem. Right? Is there a chance that the router would
    > screw up my presently-OK Verizon connection and send me back
    > to square ONE ?? Verizon wasted hours of my time, before
    > finally kicking me up to Tech Level 3 and getting me
    > connected in 3 minutes. I don't want to start all over again.
    >
    > Thanks for your patience, and in advance for your advice,
    >
    > dave
    >


    I would be bad advice. I use a statefull firewall (cisco 501 pix (yes
    overpriced but I know the device quirks as i use its bigger brother in a
    business network) as well as a linux firewall in a VM. While I like my
    config, it's not for everbody. Using a software nix firewall is
    probably enough for most folks. In my config the hardware pix sits
    between local network and outside connector. The wireless sits on it's
    own VLAN (DMZ) with limited access to local network internals.

    Winged
    Winged, Jan 31, 2006
    #15
  16. dave

    Moe Trin Guest

    On 30 Jan 2006, in the Usenet newsgroup alt.computer.security, in article
    <>,
    wrote:

    >Also, when I do play with *nix, i'll use some fully featured thing. Not
    >a CD.


    By in large, the only "feature" missing from the Live CD versions is the
    ability to save files to the CD (given it's a Read Only media, that should
    not be surprising). Remember that a Live CD will work in a computer that
    doesn't even had floppy or hard disks. The normal distributions - whether
    *BSD, Linux, or the "free" version of Solaris would normally require a
    partition of their own on a disk, because they don't use the FAT, VFAT,
    or NTFS filesystems due to missing capabilities that are otherwise needed
    in *nix (ownership, permissions, links). It is also normal to have a 'swap
    partition' (though it can be a swap file) to move (currently) unused
    segments of programs or data out of RAM automagically so that the RAM
    can be used for "stuff" you are doing right now. In the past, this
    separation of operating systems was generally done using a "spare"
    partition on the existing hard drive, but drives are so cheap today, it's
    easier to throw in an extra drive, and install to that.

    >I'm not that into linux yet, so may have misinterpreted you, but it
    >sounds like a similar system to me then. When I said I have all my data
    >in one directory, I didn't mean without subdirectories.


    Hard as it may be to believe, DOS started out without the concept of
    directories, and there are still a lot of people who think that is the
    norm.

    >err, 42 actually. DOS includes "." and ".." in its count, when not in
    >the root directory. I think.


    I suppose it's how you want to count. "." should be included, because you
    can actually put stuff in there. ".." should not, because it doesn't
    exist at the top of the tree (there is nothing "above" C:\ or D:\), and
    below that point (as in C:\DOS\ - or similar), you have to specify it
    to reach it - down is fine, up is not a default).

    Old guy
    Moe Trin, Jan 31, 2006
    #16
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