Newbie Question About Color Balance Problem in D70s ?

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Magnusfarce, Jan 22, 2007.

  1. Magnusfarce

    Magnusfarce Guest

    I recently acquired a D70s and used it to shoot some indoor sporting event
    pictures this weekend that I'm not satisfied with. At times, with no
    adjustment to any camera settings, the color tone shifted back and forth
    between a very cool or blue tone to a rather warm or yellow overall tone. I
    suspect that this has something to do with the automatic color balance
    features of the camera (perhaps a slight shift in background between
    pictures is causing this to happen). Can someone confirm if this is the
    area I need to study, and if so, recommend a good article on line where I
    can learn more about it? TIA

    - Magnusfarce
     
    Magnusfarce, Jan 22, 2007
    #1
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  2. Magnusfarce wrote:
    > I recently acquired a D70s and used it to shoot some indoor sporting event
    > pictures this weekend that I'm not satisfied with. At times, with no
    > adjustment to any camera settings, the color tone shifted back and forth
    > between a very cool or blue tone to a rather warm or yellow overall tone. I
    > suspect that this has something to do with the automatic color balance
    > features of the camera (perhaps a slight shift in background between
    > pictures is causing this to happen). Can someone confirm if this is the
    > area I need to study, and if so, recommend a good article on line where I
    > can learn more about it? TIA


    More likely to be the light source. Daylight is very different from
    tungsten light, which is very different from long-tube fluorescent
    light, which is very different from mercury-vapor lights (as found in
    some gymnasiums, say). The camera can to some degree adjust for this
    automatically, but not always perfectly. And if the scene has multiple
    light sources (of different types, that is) it gets really *very*
    complicated; getting all the colors right is, at that point, no longer
    on the table, just trying to find a compromise that's visually tolerable.

    Manual white balance, especially custom white balance, might help
    (though of course once you go to manual, you're then responsible for
    adjusting whenever you go to different conditions).
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Jan 22, 2007
    #2
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  3. "Magnusfarce" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    >I recently acquired a D70s and used it to shoot some indoor sporting event
    >pictures this weekend that I'm not satisfied with. At times, with no
    >adjustment to any camera settings, the color tone shifted back and forth
    >between a very cool or blue tone to a rather warm or yellow overall tone.
    >I suspect that this has something to do with the automatic color balance
    >features of the camera (perhaps a slight shift in background between
    >pictures is causing this to happen). Can someone confirm if this is the
    >area I need to study, and if so, recommend a good article on line where I
    >can learn more about it? TIA


    I don't like the sound of "auto colour balance" and have never even tried it
    with my d70s as just the sound of it sounds like trouble. Simply dial in
    the WB on the camera as you can fine tune it later in Capture (or whatever
    raw converter you use).

    cheers adrian www.boliston.co.uk
     
    Adrian Boliston, Jan 22, 2007
    #3
  4. On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 21:42:28 -0000, in rec.photo.digital "Adrian Boliston"
    <> wrote:

    > Simply dial in
    >the WB on the camera as you can fine tune it later in Capture (or whatever
    >raw converter you use).


    If you are shooting and processing raw, it matters not what WB setting one
    chooses in the camera itself.
    --
    Ed Ruf ()
    http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
     
    Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!), Jan 23, 2007
    #4
  5. Magnusfarce

    Magnusfarce Guest

    OP here -

    Thanks for the thoughts. I probably should have mentioned that one of the
    most obvious cases of this shift in color occurred in a pair of consecutive
    shots taken not more than maybe a second apart with the same background.
    I'd be happy to e-mail them to one of you for inspection if you think it
    would be helpful. Is it likely that this is a problem with the camera?
    (BTW, I shoot in a somewhat compressed mode for things like this, as opposed
    to raw.)

    - Magnusfarce


    "Magnusfarce" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >I recently acquired a D70s and used it to shoot some indoor sporting event
    >pictures this weekend that I'm not satisfied with. At times, with no
    >adjustment to any camera settings, the color tone shifted back and forth
    >between a very cool or blue tone to a rather warm or yellow overall tone.
    >I suspect that this has something to do with the automatic color balance
    >features of the camera (perhaps a slight shift in background between
    >pictures is causing this to happen). Can someone confirm if this is the
    >area I need to study, and if so, recommend a good article on line where I
    >can learn more about it? TIA
    >
    > - Magnusfarce
    >
     
    Magnusfarce, Jan 23, 2007
    #5
  6. On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:26:16 -0800, in rec.photo.digital "Magnusfarce"
    <> wrote:

    >OP here -
    >
    >Thanks for the thoughts. I probably should have mentioned that one of the
    >most obvious cases of this shift in color occurred in a pair of consecutive
    >shots taken not more than maybe a second apart with the same background.
    >I'd be happy to e-mail them to one of you for inspection if you think it
    >would be helpful. Is it likely that this is a problem with the camera?
    >(BTW, I shoot in a somewhat compressed mode for things like this, as opposed
    >to raw.)


    Then I'd guess you where using spot or center-weighted metering.
    --
    Ed Ruf ()
    http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
     
    Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!), Jan 23, 2007
    #6
  7. Magnusfarce

    Magnusfarce Guest

    Thanks, I'll look into that. May have more questions as a result.

    - Magnusfarce


    "Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!)" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:26:16 -0800, in rec.photo.digital "Magnusfarce"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >>OP here -
    >>
    >>Thanks for the thoughts. I probably should have mentioned that one of the
    >>most obvious cases of this shift in color occurred in a pair of
    >>consecutive
    >>shots taken not more than maybe a second apart with the same background.
    >>I'd be happy to e-mail them to one of you for inspection if you think it
    >>would be helpful. Is it likely that this is a problem with the camera?
    >>(BTW, I shoot in a somewhat compressed mode for things like this, as
    >>opposed
    >>to raw.)

    >
    > Then I'd guess you where using spot or center-weighted metering.
    > --
    > Ed Ruf ()
    > http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html
     
    Magnusfarce, Jan 23, 2007
    #7
  8. "Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!)" <> wrote in message
    news:...

    > On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 21:42:28 -0000, in rec.photo.digital "Adrian Boliston"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    >> Simply dial in
    >>the WB on the camera as you can fine tune it later in Capture (or whatever
    >>raw converter you use).

    >
    > If you are shooting and processing raw, it matters not what WB setting one
    > chooses in the camera itself.


    I aim to get it fairly close using the camera settings so that when I
    preview in Nikon View 6 I get something that looks fairly natural.

    cheers adrian www.boliston.co.uk
     
    Adrian Boliston, Jan 23, 2007
    #8
  9. Magnusfarce

    acl Guest

    Magnusfarce wrote:
    > Thanks, I'll look into that. May have more questions as a result.
    >
    > - Magnusfarce


    Changing metering pattern doesn't affect white balance, only exposure.

    Were you shooting under fluorescent lights?
     
    acl, Jan 23, 2007
    #9
  10. Magnusfarce

    Magnusfarce Guest

    This took place in a large gymnasium-type building set up with decent
    lighting, but honestly, I never thought to look up. (Guess I need to get
    into the habit.)

    If I can find out, I'll post. In situations where lighting can be properly
    identified, can a filter be used to restore neutral white balance, or would
    that be done better through the camera WB settings? Should I be able to
    look at a ceiling light and identify its type by color, either now or with
    practice?

    - Magnusfarce (OP)


    "acl" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > Magnusfarce wrote:
    >> Thanks, I'll look into that. May have more questions as a result.
    >>
    >> - Magnusfarce

    >
    > Changing metering pattern doesn't affect white balance, only exposure.
    >
    > Were you shooting under fluorescent lights?
    >
     
    Magnusfarce, Jan 24, 2007
    #10
  11. Magnusfarce

    acl Guest

    Magnusfarce wrote:
    > This took place in a large gymnasium-type building set up with decent
    > lighting, but honestly, I never thought to look up. (Guess I need to get
    > into the habit.)
    >
    > If I can find out, I'll post. In situations where lighting can be properly
    > identified, can a filter be used to restore neutral white balance, or would
    > that be done better through the camera WB settings? Should I be able to
    > look at a ceiling light and identify its type by color, either now or with
    > practice?
    >


    I don't know if people can judge light colour accurately, I certainly
    can't. You can white balance using a white/gray card (your camera has a
    setting called custom WB or something like that), or by using predefined
    settings.

    Using a filter (instead of just WB in camera) will have the advantage of
    reducing the imbalance in exposures between different channels [thus
    noise in one of the channels], but the disadvantage of requiring higher
    ISOs or exposure times (or faster apertures). If you don't understand
    this paragraph, ask!


    > - Magnusfarce (OP)
    >
    >
    > "acl" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >>Magnusfarce wrote:
    >>>Thanks, I'll look into that. May have more questions as a result.
    >>>
    >>> - Magnusfarce

    >>Changing metering pattern doesn't affect white balance, only exposure.
    >>
    >>Were you shooting under fluorescent lights?
    >>

    >
    >
     
    acl, Jan 24, 2007
    #11
  12. Magnusfarce wrote:
    > This took place in a large gymnasium-type building set up with decent
    > lighting, but honestly, I never thought to look up. (Guess I need to get
    > into the habit.)
    >
    > If I can find out, I'll post. In situations where lighting can be properly
    > identified, can a filter be used to restore neutral white balance, or would
    > that be done better through the camera WB settings? Should I be able to
    > look at a ceiling light and identify its type by color, either now or with
    > practice?


    A filter *can* be used to restore the white-balance (the issue isn't
    *neutral*, exactly; the issue is matching the settings of the camera,
    and ideally matching the ordinary state of the sensor). Filters for
    tungsten lighting are common and quite standard and work well. Filters
    for fluorescent are much more problematic, because there are so many
    kinds. And often the bulbs in an area aren't all the same.

    There are drawbacks to filters, the most obvious being that they steal a
    lot of light (nearly 2 stops for tungsten/daylight). They also make the
    viewfinder that much darker.

    Almost nobody bothers with color correction filters in digital. In
    theory, though, and especially for drastic changes like tungsten, it
    will yield a better picture. In tungsten, the blue channel is generally
    driven to the point where it's essentially functioning at a higher
    (noisier) ISO, and it's still underexposed.
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Jan 24, 2007
    #12
  13. Magnusfarce

    Magnusfarce Guest

    I found a possible explanation for the color balance shift at Ken Rockwell's
    website. In his article "How to Shoot Sports", he states that the rapid
    flicker of flourescent or halide lights caused by their 60 hz power source
    also causes flickering of color as well. Our eyes don't pick it up, but at
    higher shutter speeds, the camera can and will sometimes produce white
    balance changes from frame to frame. Any thoughts on this?

    - Magnusfarce (OP)



    "Magnusfarce" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Thanks, I'll look into that. May have more questions as a result.
    >
    > - Magnusfarce
    >
    >
    > "Ed Ruf (REPLY to E-MAIL IN SIG!)" <> wrote in
    > message news:...
    >> On Mon, 22 Jan 2007 20:26:16 -0800, in rec.photo.digital "Magnusfarce"
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>OP here -
    >>>
    >>>Thanks for the thoughts. I probably should have mentioned that one of
    >>>the
    >>>most obvious cases of this shift in color occurred in a pair of
    >>>consecutive
    >>>shots taken not more than maybe a second apart with the same background.
    >>>I'd be happy to e-mail them to one of you for inspection if you think it
    >>>would be helpful. Is it likely that this is a problem with the camera?
    >>>(BTW, I shoot in a somewhat compressed mode for things like this, as
    >>>opposed
    >>>to raw.)

    >>
    >> Then I'd guess you where using spot or center-weighted metering.
    >> --
    >> Ed Ruf ()
    >> http://edwardgruf.com/Digital_Photography/General/index.html

    >
    >
     
    Magnusfarce, Jan 25, 2007
    #13
  14. Magnusfarce

    acl Guest

    On Jan 25, 9:43 am, "Magnusfarce" <> wrote:
    > I found a possible explanation for the color balance shift at Ken Rockwell's
    > website. In his article "How to Shoot Sports", he states that the rapid
    > flicker of flourescent or halide lights caused by their 60 hz power source
    > also causes flickering of color as well. Our eyes don't pick it up, but at
    > higher shutter speeds, the camera can and will sometimes produce white
    > balance changes from frame to frame. Any thoughts on this?


    Er... did you read the reply I wrote?

    On second thought, I asked if it was fluorescent, but didn't say why.
    And you didn't ask, so forgot to explain. Oops!

    Anyway. Can you put a couple of the affected shots somewhere for us to
    look at?
     
    acl, Jan 25, 2007
    #14
  15. Magnusfarce

    RickR Guest

    Note from a lighting guy:
    Every photographer should look up a light bulb maker (GE, Phillips,
    Sylvania/Osram, etc.) and find the "spectral distribution" charts for
    various light types. These are much like a histogram for a light bulb.
    Only tungsten and daylight are smooth across the rainbow.

    http://www.gelighting.com/na/busine...ces/learn_about_light/distribution_curves.htm

    You may not be able to judge the color without a comparison but if you
    can identify the basic type of lights you'll know what your up against.
    White balance just shifts the overall color perception and doesn't
    account for the true nature of the source.

    Richard Reid, LC
    PS LEDs are comming...

    On Jan 24, 10:45 am, acl <> wrote:
    > Magnusfarce wrote:
    > > This took place in a large gymnasium-type building set up with decent
    > >lighting, but honestly, I never thought to look up. (Guess I need to get
    > > into the habit.)

    >
    > > If I can find out, I'll post. In situations wherel ighting can be properly
    > > identified, can a filter be used to restore neutral white balance, or would
    > > that be done better through the camera WB settings? Should I be able to
    > > look at a ceilinglightand identify its type by color, either now or with
    > > practice?I don't know if people can judgelightcolour accurately, I certainly

    > can't. You can white balance using a white/gray card (your camera has a
    > setting called custom WB or something like that), or by using predefined
    > settings.
    >
    > Using a filter (instead of just WB in camera) will have the advantage of
    > reducing the imbalance in exposures between different channels [thus
    > noise in one of the channels], but the disadvantage of requiring higher
    > ISOs or exposure times (or faster apertures). If you don't understand
    > this paragraph, ask!
    >
    >
    >
    > > - Magnusfarce (OP)

    >
    > > "acl" <> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > >>Magnusfarce wrote:
    > >>>Thanks, I'll look into that. May have more questions as a result.

    >
    > >>> - Magnusfarce
    > >>Changing metering pattern doesn't affect white balance, only exposure.

    >
    > >>Were you shooting under fluorescentlights?- Hide quoted text -- Show quoted text -
     
    RickR, Jan 25, 2007
    #15
  16. Magnusfarce

    Magnusfarce Guest

    The best examples are shots of a player who is not my daughter and I'd
    rather not post them to a public site. I'd be okay emailing them to one or
    two people in the group who have responded. There's a great pair of shots
    taken less than a second apart with essentially identical backgrounds and
    very different color balances.

    - Magnusfarce


    "acl" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    >
    > On Jan 25, 9:43 am, "Magnusfarce" <> wrote:
    >> I found a possible explanation for the color balance shift at Ken
    >> Rockwell's
    >> website. In his article "How to Shoot Sports", he states that the rapid
    >> flicker of flourescent or halide lights caused by their 60 hz power
    >> source
    >> also causes flickering of color as well. Our eyes don't pick it up, but
    >> at
    >> higher shutter speeds, the camera can and will sometimes produce white
    >> balance changes from frame to frame. Any thoughts on this?

    >
    > Er... did you read the reply I wrote?
    >
    > On second thought, I asked if it was fluorescent, but didn't say why.
    > And you didn't ask, so forgot to explain. Oops!
    >
    > Anyway. Can you put a couple of the affected shots somewhere for us to
    > look at?
    >
     
    Magnusfarce, Jan 26, 2007
    #16
  17. Magnusfarce

    acl Guest

    Magnusfarce wrote:
    > The best examples are shots of a player who is not my daughter and I'd
    > rather not post them to a public site. I'd be okay emailing them to one or
    > two people in the group who have responded. There's a great pair of shots
    > taken less than a second apart with essentially identical backgrounds and
    > very different color balances.
    >
    > - Magnusfarce
    >
    >
    > "acl" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >>
    >>On Jan 25, 9:43 am, "Magnusfarce" <> wrote:
    >>>I found a possible explanation for the color balance shift at Ken
    >>>Rockwell's
    >>>website. In his article "How to Shoot Sports", he states that the rapid
    >>>flicker of flourescent or halide lights caused by their 60 hz power
    >>>source
    >>>also causes flickering of color as well. Our eyes don't pick it up, but
    >>>at
    >>>higher shutter speeds, the camera can and will sometimes produce white
    >>>balance changes from frame to frame. Any thoughts on this?

    >>Er... did you read the reply I wrote?
    >>
    >>On second thought, I asked if it was fluorescent, but didn't say why.
    >>And you didn't ask, so forgot to explain. Oops!
    >>
    >>Anyway. Can you put a couple of the affected shots somewhere for us to
    >>look at?
    >>

    >
    >


    Well, you can post a crop not including the player, or you can try
    emailing a couple to me (not that I am such an expert on this, but I can
    offer an opinion if you want).
     
    acl, Jan 26, 2007
    #17
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