Newbie - completely confused!

Discussion in 'UK VOIP' started by Tx2, Nov 24, 2006.

  1. Tx2

    Tx2 Guest

    I currently have a MAXdsl (up to 8Mb) with AAISP, and am looking to
    perhaps 'enter' the VOIP arena.

    Currently, our voicecalls are routed via Primus (on our BT rented line)
    and we also use 18185 for certain calls, I.e. international.

    We tend to make a mix of local, national and international calls (the
    latter only ever to Cyprus) so I am looking for a cheaper VOIP option
    than our current arrangement.

    1. Which company is the market leader for domestic VOIP?

    2. Are the monthly costs of VOIP likely to be cheaper than Primus/18185?

    3. Are the quality of the calls good?

    4. Does VOIP use bandwidth which counts towards usage limits insofar as
    the ISP is concerned? (that's perhaps my daft question!)

    5. Can I use my existing Draytek 2600 router?

    6. Can I use my existing DECT cordless phone system?

    TIA
    Tx2, Nov 24, 2006
    #1
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  2. Tx2

    RH Guest

    "Tx2" <this.is.an.inv@lid_email_address.com> wrote in message
    news:...

    > 1. Which company is the market leader for domestic VOIP?

    Vonage (via marketing power)
    SIPGATE, VOIPFONE, & BT to name but a few for full service
    Voipbuster (and other companies from teh same group) for outgoing

    > 2. Are the monthly costs of VOIP likely to be cheaper than Primus/18185?

    mosty work on a pay as you go basis, some charge a coiple of quid for local
    telephone number
    while others offer this free.

    calls to cyprus :
    Voipbuster.com : Free (subject to being in credit, 120 days, 300 max
    minutes per 7 days) credit can be used
    for Uk calls and calls to mobiles etc

    Sipgate.co.uk : 4.9p / minute

    Voipfone : 1.2p/minute

    It is worth checking all providers out, some work out very expensive for
    mobiles, but better on some countries.

    If you spend a bit more you can use multiple providers, so use SIPGATe for a
    free local incoming telephone number and internetcalls.com for free european
    land line calls

    > 3. Are the quality of the calls good?

    It does depend, on 2 factors
    1- the conenct to the VOIP supplier
    2- The Routing your VOIP supplier is using, so Uk calls may be great while
    calls to south africa may be
    worse, as it is with 18866 etc sometimes, I use VOIP for european calls and
    find the quality very good
    most of the time, with some provider calls can be hit and miss

    > 4. Does VOIP use bandwidth which counts towards usage limits insofar as
    > the ISP is concerned? (that's perhaps my daft question!)

    Yes it does

    > 5. Can I use my existing Draytek 2600 router?

    Should have no problems, but may need toset prot forwarding to make it work

    > 6. Can I use my existing DECT cordless phone system?

    Yes, if you use an ATA you plug that into your router and your phone into an
    ATA, some units are only for VOIP, some other a lifeline service where both
    your landline and voip calls come in over 1 phone.
    RH, Nov 24, 2006
    #2
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  3. Tx2

    Polly Guest

    On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 14:58:39 -0000, Tx2 postulated:

    >I currently have a MAXdsl (up to 8Mb) with AAISP, and am looking to
    >perhaps 'enter' the VOIP arena.


    Are you looking for a VoIP solution for reliably making and receiving
    telephone calls or are you more interested in joining the Wright
    Brothers to experiment and try to make the blasted thing fly?

    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
    Polly, Nov 25, 2006
    #3
  4. Tx2

    Tx2 Guest

    In article <>,
    says...
    > On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 14:58:39 -0000, Tx2 postulated:
    >
    > >I currently have a MAXdsl (up to 8Mb) with AAISP, and am looking to
    > >perhaps 'enter' the VOIP arena.

    >
    > Are you looking for a VoIP solution for reliably making and receiving
    > telephone calls or are you more interested in joining the Wright
    > Brothers to experiment and try to make the blasted thing fly?


    The former, I guess?
    Tx2, Nov 25, 2006
    #4
  5. Tx2

    Brian A Guest

    On Fri, 24 Nov 2006 14:58:39 -0000, Tx2
    <this.is.an.inv@lid_email_address.com> wrote:

    >
    >I currently have a MAXdsl (up to 8Mb) with AAISP, and am looking to
    >perhaps 'enter' the VOIP arena.
    >
    >Currently, our voicecalls are routed via Primus (on our BT rented line)
    >and we also use 18185 for certain calls, I.e. international.
    >
    >We tend to make a mix of local, national and international calls (the
    >latter only ever to Cyprus) so I am looking for a cheaper VOIP option
    >than our current arrangement.
    >
    >1. Which company is the market leader for domestic VOIP?

    Vonage is the market leader but don't take that as a recommendation as
    to the VSP you should go with. Choose them only if you want an
    inflexible but out of the box solution. Imho, they are overpriced.
    You do not need to use just one provider.
    For uk calls I would recommend voip.co.uk. Vyke.co.uk have a good deal
    but there have been no reports posted here, afaik, on the company.
    If you are dialling internationally you do not have to choose a UK
    based company for those international calls. For example I use an
    Australian company for calls to Australia.
    Check out the extensive list of VSPs on the sipbroker.com web site.
    You might check out the Betamax companies for outgoing
    calls...sipdiscount etc. and look at Voipfone too - they are
    particularly good on the incoming side as they have a good voicemail
    system, 1471, caller display, callwaiting.
    >
    >2. Are the monthly costs of VOIP likely to be cheaper than Primus/18185?

    I think so yes. However, another advantage is you can forget about all
    this dialling of codes, to access different providers, if you use a
    Sipura ATA, such as the Sipura/Linksys SPA-3102 you can set up a dial
    plan so that the correct provider will be chosen for the type of
    number dialled - plus you can set up speed dial numbers - no more
    programming of every phone in the house as it is all central. The
    SPA-3102 will allow a single incoming number (plus a landline if you
    have one) and 5 outgoing providers (plus a landline if you have one).
    >
    >3. Are the quality of the calls good?

    Yes.
    >
    >4. Does VOIP use bandwidth which counts towards usage limits insofar as
    >the ISP is concerned? (that's perhaps my daft question!)
    >

    Yes. The amount used depends on the codec. Typically, for a good
    quality connection, it might be 16MB/hour.
    >5. Can I use my existing Draytek 2600 router?

    Yes.
    >
    >6. Can I use my existing DECT cordless phone system?

    Absolutely, no problem, indeed it makes the set up far easier as you
    don't have to do any wiring.
    >

    Lastly, if you are able to get Telewest then you can have a broadband
    only connection and can ditch the landline - however, you should have
    a mobile switched on at all times to cater for 999 calls. Voip.co.uk
    do cover 999 but if your broadband is down or the power has gone off ,
    you'll need your mobile phone.

    Remove 'no_spam_' from email address.
    Brian A, Nov 25, 2006
    #5
  6. Tx2

    B Guest

    On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 10:55:21 GMT, Brian A said in article
    <>:

    >>2. Are the monthly costs of VOIP likely to be cheaper than Primus/18185?

    >I think so yes. However, another advantage is you can forget about all
    >this dialling of codes, to access different providers, if you use a
    >Sipura ATA, such as the Sipura/Linksys SPA-3102 you can set up a dial
    >plan so that the correct provider will be chosen for the type of
    >number dialled - plus you can set up speed dial numbers - no more
    >programming of every phone in the house as it is all central.


    Certainly you can do that. Indeed you can have months of fun learning
    about scores of ATA parameters. Most of these parameters are pretty
    much incomprehensible to even the diehards in this newsgroup.
    B, Nov 25, 2006
    #6
  7. Tx2

    Brian A Guest

    On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 22:54:31 +0000, B <Á@> wrote:

    >On Sat, 25 Nov 2006 10:55:21 GMT, Brian A said in article
    ><>:
    >
    >>>2. Are the monthly costs of VOIP likely to be cheaper than Primus/18185?

    >>I think so yes. However, another advantage is you can forget about all
    >>this dialling of codes, to access different providers, if you use a
    >>Sipura ATA, such as the Sipura/Linksys SPA-3102 you can set up a dial
    >>plan so that the correct provider will be chosen for the type of
    >>number dialled - plus you can set up speed dial numbers - no more
    >>programming of every phone in the house as it is all central.

    >
    >Certainly you can do that. Indeed you can have months of fun learning
    >about scores of ATA parameters. Most of these parameters are pretty
    >much incomprehensible to even the diehards in this newsgroup.

    I think that you underestimate people who post here. It is true that
    everyone doesn't have the same depth of knowledge and understanding in
    everything, but there are lots of people who are experts in their own
    particular field of interest.
    Those who want to use Vonage ONLY have little or no need of this
    group, they are often non technical people.
    Help is always given to those who want a more flexible system, where
    they are in control, and where they are keen to put in the effort.
    At some time we have all had to put in the effort to learn about new
    technologies, those who are technophobes will just have to pay for
    their services be it via higher than necessary service and call
    charges and/or someone to set up a system for them. The rest may seek
    help here.
    Remove 'no_spam_' from email address.
    Brian A, Nov 26, 2006
    #7
  8. Tx2

    B Guest

    On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 12:08:09 GMT, Brian A said in article
    <>:

    >Those who want to use Vonage ONLY have little or no need of this
    >group, they are often non technical people.


    They may still have a need for this group because they may not even
    know that there are services like Skype and Vonage available. In any
    case they may well be interested in opinions about these and other
    services.

    I think it's a great pity that anyone who asks about Vonage and Skype
    in this group often gets treated like a leper. For some people the
    convenience of an out-of-the box solution is worth paying a little
    extra for. Depending on individual circumstances and needs Vonage or
    Skype may work out more cost effective.

    I have used both Vonage and have also gone through the hassle of
    setting up an ATA from scratch. "Hassle" is not to strong a word for
    it. People here were certainly helpful in suggesting settings for my
    PAP2 and I fully acknowledge this help. However there was still a lot
    of trial and error involved before I got the desired result.

    So I now use both Vonage and various other of the service providers
    that many around here rave about. I also propose to give Skype a try
    in the not too distant future. There's not a clearcut winner overall.
    Despite what many of the diehards here would make you believe, Vonage
    and Skype will suit some people and should not be dismissed out of
    hand

    The OP suggested he was a complete beginner and for all we know, he
    might prefer an out-of-the-box solution over the hassle of configuring
    his own ATA. At least let's give him the choice.
    B, Nov 26, 2006
    #8
  9. Tx2

    Tx2 Guest

    In article <>, Á@ says...

    > The OP suggested he was a complete beginner and for all we know, he
    > might prefer an out-of-the-box solution over the hassle of configuring
    > his own ATA. At least let's give him the choice.


    I'm happy with giving anything a try. I'm not worried if it is out-of-
    the-box, but I have no idea what an "ATA" is!

    I'm pretty savvy when it comes to most things technical, but VOIP is a
    new area to me, and I'd like to get into the game somewhat.

    Happy to experiment a little, but don't want to spend lots of money and
    time on rubbish.
    Tx2, Nov 26, 2006
    #9
  10. Tx2

    Tx2 Guest

    In article <>,
    this.is.an.inv@lid_email_address.com says...

    > Happy to experiment a little, but don't want to spend lots of money and
    > time on rubbish.


    One thing that has confused me is what the call charges are.

    If I call another VOIP number, any VOIP number, is it free?

    If I have to pay for that call (to another VOIP number) how can it be
    cheaper than a normal landline call made via, for example, Primus?

    I appreciate calls to a fixed landline will cost, but they don't seem
    cheaper than calls to, for example, Cyprus that I make using 18185.
    Gradwell fees to there are circa 10p per minute, whereas with 18185 they
    are 1p per minute.

    I'm probably missing something, but VOIP might be the new kid on the
    block, I just can't see (yet) how it is a cheaper alternative to POTS.
    Tx2, Nov 26, 2006
    #10
  11. On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 14:27:08 +0000, B <Á@> wrote:

    >The OP suggested he was a complete beginner and for all we know, he
    >might prefer an out-of-the-box solution over the hassle of configuring
    >his own ATA


    If you use a supported ATA most service providers have configurator
    pages or the ones on 3rd party sites do a good job. Very little effort
    to use them.

    The real wrestling with ATAs is usually people trying to use them for
    services intended only for softphones or other hardware, or doing more
    complex functionality that one phone line via one provider.

    Phil
    --

    Usenet spam eaten by a Hamster http://www.tglsoft.de/
    No more cable clowns :))
    Please do not feed or re-quote the trolls.
    Phil Thompson, Nov 26, 2006
    #11
  12. "Tx2" <this.is.an.inv@lid_email_address.com> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <>,
    > this.is.an.inv@lid_email_address.com says...
    >
    >> Happy to experiment a little, but don't want to spend lots of money
    >> and
    >> time on rubbish.

    >
    > One thing that has confused me is what the call charges are.
    >
    > If I call another VOIP number, any VOIP number, is it free?
    >
    > If I have to pay for that call (to another VOIP number) how can it be
    > cheaper than a normal landline call made via, for example, Primus?
    >
    > I appreciate calls to a fixed landline will cost, but they don't seem
    > cheaper than calls to, for example, Cyprus that I make using 18185.
    > Gradwell fees to there are circa 10p per minute, whereas with 18185
    > they
    > are 1p per minute.
    >
    > I'm probably missing something, but VOIP might be the new kid on the
    > block, I just can't see (yet) how it is a cheaper alternative to POTS.
    >


    I switched to VoIP because I am on NTL cable broadband, and I have
    cancelled their phone service, and done away with the monthly line
    rental charges, so I am better off.

    If I was still with BT, I would be using alternative call routes.
    Gradwell are relatively expensive in the VoIP market, charging £4.70 for
    the equivalent of line rental, plus higher call charges than what can be
    easily achieved with other providers using alternative call routes,
    including NTL and BT.
    Harry Stottle, Nov 26, 2006
    #12
  13. Tx2

    Brian A Guest

    On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 14:58:23 -0000, Tx2
    <this.is.an.inv@lid_email_address.com> wrote:

    >In article <>, Á@ says...
    >
    >> The OP suggested he was a complete beginner and for all we know, he
    >> might prefer an out-of-the-box solution over the hassle of configuring
    >> his own ATA. At least let's give him the choice.

    >
    >I'm happy with giving anything a try. I'm not worried if it is out-of-
    >the-box, but I have no idea what an "ATA" is!
    >
    >I'm pretty savvy when it comes to most things technical, but VOIP is a
    >new area to me, and I'd like to get into the game somewhat.
    >
    >Happy to experiment a little, but don't want to spend lots of money and
    >time on rubbish.

    The choice is yours. As I stated in my first post Vonage is the market
    leader. They charge £8/month to cover all UK/Ireland geographic
    landline calls.

    If you are reasonably technically mined you may want to persue getting
    your own ATA (Analogue Telephone Adapter) and setting it up yourself.
    If you are not at all technically minded you may prefer Vonage. It is
    likely to work out more expensive in the long run but it is an 'out of
    the box' solution and thus ideal for someone who just wants a working
    service without any bother. You do, also, have to pay for the ATA
    that Vonage supply and it is locked to Vonage - that means that it can
    only be used with Vonage - forget about postings about unlocking
    Vonage ATAs - it requires skills you are not likely to possess.

    If you decide to get your own ATA then you will be able to seek advice
    here on which would best suit your needs and how to set it up.
    To compare costs with Vonage if you went for your own ATA:-
    approximately £38 - £65 for a Linksys/Sipura ATA - depending on the
    type.
    UK calls from voip.co.uk: £20/year covers all off-peak geographic
    landline calls and then 2p/call for peak time calls. A geographic
    telephone number, for your area, is included for people to call you.

    An example of what an ATA looks like is here:-
    http://www.sipura.com/products/spa1001.htm
    This one sells for £38 on
    www.broadbandstuff.co.uk
    It can have 2 separate voip lines terminating to one set of telephone
    handsets.

    To summarise:
    Simple choice:
    1. Vonage, no setting up, just plug it in and it should work.
    @£8/month.
    2. Own ATA, set it up yourself and choose your own provider at a lower
    cost.


    Remove 'no_spam_' from email address.
    Brian A, Nov 26, 2006
    #13
  14. Tx2

    Polly Guest

    On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:31:35 GMT, Brian A postulated:

    >The choice is yours. As I stated in my first post Vonage is the market
    >leader. They charge £8/month to cover all UK/Ireland geographic
    >landline calls.


    They limit the time per free call to one hour but this is probably
    more than enough for most people. They also have a call forwarding
    facility to other UK numbers at no cost which is probably unique.
    Recently they have started to offer an option of free calls to a
    number of overseas countries including USA & Canada. Their call
    quality is good and voicemail is excellent. They offer emergency
    calls.

    While the cost of £7.99 / month may be higher than other providers
    they offer a no-hassle installation. Anyone with broadband and a spare
    port on a switch or router should be able to get it up and working
    within a minute or two. For those people who have previously had a BT
    or NTL line the monthly saving in switching to Vonage will be very
    significant if they cancel their normal landline.

    The main gripe is Americanisation of some features


    --
    Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com
    Polly, Nov 26, 2006
    #14
  15. Tx2

    Jono Guest

    Polly expressed precisely :
    > On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:31:35 GMT, Brian A postulated:
    >
    >> The choice is yours. As I stated in my first post Vonage is the market
    >> leader. They charge £8/month to cover all UK/Ireland geographic
    >> landline calls.

    >
    > They limit the time per free call to one hour but this is probably
    > more than enough for most people. They also have a call forwarding
    > facility to other UK numbers at no cost which is probably unique.
    > Recently they have started to offer an option of free calls to a
    > number of overseas countries including USA & Canada. Their call
    > quality is good and voicemail is excellent. They offer emergency
    > calls.
    >
    > While the cost of £7.99 / month may be higher than other providers
    > they offer a no-hassle installation. Anyone with broadband and a spare
    > port on a switch or router should be able to get it up and working
    > within a minute or two. *For those people who have previously had a BT*
    > or NTL line the monthly saving in switching to Vonage will be very
    > significant if they cancel their normal landline.


    Presumably you meant those that have cable internet who choose to ditch
    a landline could make savings...?
    Jono, Nov 26, 2006
    #15
  16. Tx2

    B Guest

    On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 20:20:03 +0000, Phil Thompson said in article
    <>:

    >If you use a supported ATA most service providers have configurator
    >pages or the ones on 3rd party sites do a good job. Very little effort
    >to use them.


    All I can say is that setting up my PAP2 for Sipgate and Finarea took
    several weeks to get it fully working. Without the help I got from
    this newsgroup I would never got it working at all. Even with this
    help, there were quite a number of PAP2 settings that no one could
    explain and the suggestion was to try different ones to see if it made
    any difference. The syntax of "dial plan" seemed to have been devised
    by a geek who wanted to have a laugh at the expenses of gringos.

    Admittedly all this was a couple of years ago and maybe now the black
    art of ATA configuration has been enlightened a bit.

    Contrast this with unpacking a Vonage adapter, plugging it in and then
    it worked within a few seconds. It has carried on working perfectly
    for months with no attention needed of any kind.

    I have never understood why ATA settings have to be so needlessly
    complex. Comparing configuring an ATA with installing Vonage is like
    comparing the early days of personal computing using a soldering iron
    with plugging in and switching on a modern PC.
    B, Nov 26, 2006
    #16
  17. On Sun, 26 Nov 2006 22:17:12 +0000, B <Á@> wrote:

    >I have never understood why ATA settings have to be so needlessly
    >complex.


    because the things have a tremendous range of versatility and can be
    configured for any service working to any international standard for
    the connected phone. In practice I have set up several accounts on
    ATAs that have required me to enter all of three or four settings, ie
    those specific to the account. The sipgate settings as a for-instance
    are at
    <http://www.sipgate.co.uk/faq/index.php?aktion=anzeigen&type=devices&rubrik=700>

    The configuration wizards at
    <http://voxilla.com/tools/device-configuration-tools/> save the user
    finding the fields in the aTA UI.

    If you want to fine tune the ringing cadence or system tones or
    electrical properties its all there in an ATA, which is why it looks
    complex, but in reality you don't *need* to do any of that.

    >Comparing configuring an ATA with installing Vonage is like
    >comparing the early days of personal computing using a soldering iron
    >with plugging in and switching on a modern PC.


    The equivalent of "installing" Vonage is plugging in an ATA that you
    have paid someone else to configure for you and they have locked the
    settings to one service. Obviously its simpler as you paid for the
    privelige.

    BT Broadband Talk do the same monthly charge as Vonage, with a self
    configuring box that isn't locked. Same monthly cost, and cheaper
    calls to mobiles to boot.

    Phil
    --

    Usenet spam eaten by a Hamster http://www.tglsoft.de/
    No more cable clowns :))
    Please do not feed or re-quote the trolls.
    Phil Thompson, Nov 27, 2006
    #17
  18. Tx2

    B Guest

    On Mon, 27 Nov 2006 08:25:07 +0000, Phil Thompson said in article
    <>:

    >because the things have a tremendous range of versatility and can be
    >configured for any service working to any international standard for
    >the connected phone. In practice I have set up several accounts on
    >ATAs that have required me to enter all of three or four settings, ie
    >those specific to the account.


    The problem is nobody can explain the need for the few dozen other
    incomprehensible parameters apart from saying "if the default settings
    don't work try playing with these other values".

    Why does the syntax of the so called "dial plan" have to be so
    obscure?

    Finally, after you've spent time juggling all these ATA settings
    around, why is it then necessary to have to play around with router
    port forwarding? My Vonage adapter can be plugged into any switch or
    route4r. No only is no configuration of the box required, all this
    fiddling with router port forwarding is completely unnecessary.
    B, Nov 27, 2006
    #18
  19. Tx2

    Jono Guest

    "B" <Á@> wrote in message
    news:...

    >
    > Why does the syntax of the so called "dial plan" have to be so
    > obscure?


    What's obscure about (*x.|x.) ..?

    > Finally, after you've spent time juggling all these ATA settings
    > around, why is it then necessary to have to play around with router
    > port forwarding? My Vonage adapter can be plugged into any switch or
    > route4r. No only is no configuration of the box required, all this
    > fiddling with router port forwarding is completely unnecessary.


    I have no port forwarding set up whatsoever and all my services function -
    sipgate, voip.co.uk, voipcheap, voipfone, et all.
    Jono, Nov 27, 2006
    #19
  20. Tx2

    Ivor Jones Guest

    "Jono" <> wrote in message
    news:qHyah.7616$
    > "B" <Á@> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >
    > >
    > > Why does the syntax of the so called "dial plan" have
    > > to be so obscure?

    >
    > What's obscure about (*x.|x.) ..?
    >
    > > Finally, after you've spent time juggling all these ATA
    > > settings around, why is it then necessary to have to
    > > play around with router port forwarding? My Vonage
    > > adapter can be plugged into any switch or route4r. No
    > > only is no configuration of the box required, all this
    > > fiddling with router port forwarding is completely
    > > unnecessary.

    >
    > I have no port forwarding set up whatsoever and all my
    > services function - sipgate, voip.co.uk, voipcheap,
    > voipfone, et all.


    Same here on my Fritz!Box. I have 4 numbers set up on that, plus another
    two on a Sipura 2000 plugged into it, and finally an AG-188 IAX ATA with a
    link to the CNET system running on a friend's Asterisk box.

    (For info on CNET see www.ckts.info)

    Ivor
    Ivor Jones, Nov 27, 2006
    #20
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