New M$ browser sends search queries to MSN - Google objects

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Have A Nice Cup of Tea, May 1, 2006.

  1. http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/268603_google01.html

    "" Microsoft insists it has no intention of deploying its browser as a
    weapon in the search wars. ""

    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    1/ Migration to Linux only costs money once. Higher Windows TCO is forever.
    2/ "Shared source" is a poison pill. Open Source is freedom.
    3/ Only the Windows boxes get the worms.
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, May 1, 2006
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. On a pleasant day while strolling in nz.comp, a person by the name of
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea exclaimed:
    > http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/268603_google01.html
    >
    > "" Microsoft insists it has no intention of deploying its browser as a
    > weapon in the search wars. ""


    I'm shocked. Shocked, I tell you.
    Microsoft using their monopoly on desktop and browser to expand into
    other markets? It seems almost inconceivable.

    --
    aaronl at consultant dot com
    For every expert, there is an equal and
    opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
    Aaron Lawrence, May 1, 2006
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    Steven H Guest

    Steven H, May 2, 2006
    #3
  4. Steven H wrote:
    > Hello Have A Nice Cup of Tea,
    >
    > http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/04/30/587373.aspx
    >
    > just one of the guys on the IE team - so i guess he knows what actually happens
    > ....


    Exactly, IE7 supports OpenSearch

    Another opinion:

    http://www.fool.com/news/commentary/2006/commentary06050105.htm

    "Pot. Kettle. Black. That's a snarkified distillation of hypocrisy that
    I lifted from one of my waggish colleagues, and today it applies
    brilliantly to Google.

    This morning, a New York Times story details Big Goo's new efforts to
    try to hit Microsoft with the ol' political hammer, by squealing to
    U.S. and European officials about an alleged anticompetitive threat. At
    issue is the new version of Internet Explorer, which Google maintains
    is unfair because it uses a Microsoft web search as the default option.

    This would probably surprise anyone who's used the browser. In fact,
    Microsoft adopts a feature long available in alternative browsers, one
    that makes it dead simple for users to keep a variety of their favorite
    search engines close at hand. The result is one-click access to
    searches from competitors such as Google,... It's just as simple to
    make a non-Microsoft engine the default, although the article notes
    that Google believes the 4-click process is too difficult for users.

    Browser wars: a new hope

    If that sounds as silly to you as it does to me, how about the
    hypocrisy of Google's promotion of its pet browser, Firefox? Last week,
    Google took the drastic step of advertising the alternate browser right
    on its hallowed front page. When I ran my copy of Firefox for the first
    time, the default page provided a Google search, and Firefox also
    features a little upper-right-hand search bar with options for
    alternate search providers. The default search, of course, was Big
    Goo's.

    Pot. Kettle. Black.

    Let's review a few facts. The Microsoft threat isn't even on the
    streets yet. It's still in beta. Moreover, the company crying for Uncle
    Sam to help it out isn't some tiny upstart fighting the big bad wolf.
    It's a multibillion-dollar enterprise that is far and away the leader
    in Internet search, with close to a 50% share to Mr. Softy's puny 10%.
    Big Goo's success -- and it's Microsoft-ish habit of horning in on
    other firms' moneymaking rackets -- seem to have morphed it from "don't
    be evil" media darlings into the new Silicon Valley monster boy,
    starting rumors that the mighty are looking to band together to fend
    off the threat."

    Cheers
    Nathan


    > ----------------
    > Steven H
    >
    > the madGeek
    >
    > > http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/business/268603_google01.html
    > >
    > > "" Microsoft insists it has no intention of deploying its browser as a
    > > weapon in the search wars. ""
    > >
    > > Have A Nice Cup of Tea
    > >
    Nathan Mercer, May 2, 2006
    #4
  5. On Mon, 01 May 2006 22:12:54 -0700, Nathan Mercer wrote:

    > Exactly, IE7 supports OpenSearch


    Ah - the Nathanbot contradicts.

    Micro$oft could, if it wanted to (which it clearly doesn't) set up the
    "search" functionality to ask users to choose which search engine they
    want to use - with no default setting pre-chosen.

    That way M$ really could say it is not using its monopoly to steer the
    sheep/M$-users towardsd M$N.


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    1/ Migration to Linux only costs money once. Higher Windows TCO is forever.
    2/ "Shared source" is a poison pill. Open Source is freedom.
    3/ Only the Windows boxes get the worms.
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, May 2, 2006
    #5
  6. Have A Nice Cup of Tea wrote:

    > On Mon, 01 May 2006 22:12:54 -0700, Nathan Mercer wrote:
    >
    > > Exactly, IE7 supports OpenSearch

    >
    > Ah - the Nathanbot contradicts.
    >
    > Micro$oft could, if it wanted to (which it clearly doesn't) set up the
    > "search" functionality to ask users to choose which search engine they
    > want to use - with no default setting pre-chosen.


    Did you read the blogs post?
    MSN is NOT the default, here is no default built into IE7. IE7`
    respects the users previous IE autosearch setting

    "We thought the best way for IE7 to do what the user wants is to honor
    the user's autosearch setting from IE6. This setting is
    well-documented and has been in use for many years. It is a good
    indicator of user intent. While some sources claim that this setting
    favors MSN, the data we saw from independent research companies like
    comScore indicates that almost three-quarters of the autosearch queries
    went to search providers like AOL, Google, and Yahoo, not MSN.
    Independently, representatives of Yahoo! suggested using the user's
    IE6 autosearch setting. Additionally, I've seen a lot of pleasant
    surprise from users in comments on the IEBlog, Digg, and even Slashdot
    that the search box in IE7 actually reflects their individual search
    provider of choice, further validating this decision."

    http://blogs.msdn.com/ie/archive/2006/02/10/529950.aspx
    Nathan Mercer, May 2, 2006
    #6
  7. On Tue, 02 May 2006 03:10:17 -0700, Nathan Mercer wrote:

    > It is a good
    > indicator of user intent.


    User is intent on what?

    Don't you mean "It explicitly states the user's preference"? rather than a
    mere "indicator"?

    Micro$oft brown-nosers often have a very poor grasp of the syntax of
    English.


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    1/ Migration to Linux only costs money once. Higher Windows TCO is forever.
    2/ "Shared source" is a poison pill. Open Source is freedom.
    3/ Only the Windows boxes get the worms.
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, May 2, 2006
    #7
  8. Hi Nathan,

    On a pleasant day while strolling in nz.comp, a person by the name of
    Nathan Mercer exclaimed:
    > MSN is NOT the default, here is no default built into IE7. IE7`
    > respects the users previous IE autosearch setting


    Yes, but in 90% of cases that is already MSN search. Not by choice, but
    because that was the default loaded with IE6.

    It's a bit of semantics really: "we're no longer favouring any search
    provider. But oh, the default is copied over from the days when we did."

    Cheers

    Aaron


    --
    aaronl at consultant dot com
    For every expert, there is an equal and
    opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
    Aaron Lawrence, May 2, 2006
    #8
  9. Aaron Lawrence wrote:

    > On a pleasant day while strolling in nz.comp, a person by the name of
    > Nathan Mercer exclaimed:
    > > MSN is NOT the default, here is no default built into IE7. IE7`
    > > respects the users previous IE autosearch setting

    >
    > Yes, but in 90% of cases that is already MSN search. Not by choice, but
    > because that was the default loaded with IE6.


    I'm not sure where the 90% figure comes from. Again from the IE Team
    blog post:

    "While some sources claim that this setting favors MSN, the data we saw
    from independent research companies like comScore
    http://www.comscore.com/ indicates that almost three-quarters of the
    autosearch queries went to search providers like AOL, Google, and
    Yahoo, not MSN. Independently, representatives of Yahoo! suggested
    using the user's IE6 autosearch setting."

    > It's a bit of semantics really: "we're no longer favouring any search
    > provider. But oh, the default is copied over from the days when we did."


    Most OEM installs of Windows have had their autosearch setting
    modified, the search engines have paid the PC manufacturers for the
    user eyeballs and default.

    Cheers
    Nathan
    Nathan Mercer, May 3, 2006
    #9
  10. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    Don Hills Guest

    In article <>,
    "Nathan Mercer" <> wrote:
    >
    >Most OEM installs of Windows have had their autosearch setting
    >modified, the search engines have paid the PC manufacturers for the
    >user eyeballs and default.


    At first glance it doesn't make sense, paying to make your portal the
    default when you could have done it in the shipped code for free.
    How is it paid for - an actual cash payment, or another variation on
    the "discount for doing it our way" pricing for OEMs?

    (Yes, I understood what you said perfectly. It was very well phrased.)

    --
    Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand
    "New interface closely resembles Presentation Manager,
    preparing you for the wonders of OS/2!"
    -- Advertisement on the box for Microsoft Windows 2.11 for 286
    Don Hills, May 3, 2006
    #10
  11. On Tue, 02 May 2006 16:53:03 -0700, Nathan Mercer wrote:

    > independent research companies


    Ah yes - Micro$oft's shills dressed up as "independent research companies".

    We all know about Micro$oft's "independent" TCO studies.

    "Independent"? That would be as independent as the Nathanbot is
    independent.


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    1/ Migration to Linux only costs money once. Higher Windows TCO is forever.
    2/ "Shared source" is a poison pill. Open Source is freedom.
    3/ Only the Windows boxes get the worms.
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, May 3, 2006
    #11
  12. X-No-Archive

    Don Hills wrote:
    > >Most OEM installs of Windows have had their autosearch setting
    > >modified, the search engines have paid the PC manufacturers for the
    > >user eyeballs and default.

    >
    > At first glance it doesn't make sense, paying to make your portal the
    > default when you could have done it in the shipped code for free.
    > How is it paid for - an actual cash payment, or another variation on
    > the "discount for doing it our way" pricing for OEMs?
    >
    > (Yes, I understood what you said perfectly. It was very well phrased.)


    likewise

    There have been various articles floating around suggesting how Google
    might pay DELL fees approaching US$1 billion over three years for
    distribution and defaults on their PCs.

    I personally find it hyocritical that Google wants Microsoft to ask
    consumers to make a conscious choice about search providers when Google
    has not demanded that Firefox make consumers do similar choices in that
    browser.

    I notice that when you browse to Google's homepage that you don't get
    any choice - there is a default engine that you can't change, and there
    is no choice. Maybe they can add some drop downs on the page to give
    users choice to search with the Yahoo engine, or the MSN engine?

    The search setting in IE7 is very simple to change - I just set mine to
    Google and it took 2 clicks and 2 seconds. Is Google worried about
    people dumping it and moving to another engine because its not worth
    the extra effort to click the mouse twice?

    Cheers
    Nathanbot
    Nathan Mercer, May 4, 2006
    #12
  13. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    Don Hills Guest

    In article <>,
    "Nathan Mercer" <> wrote:

    >There have been various articles floating around suggesting how Google
    >might pay DELL fees approaching US$1 billion over three years for
    >distribution and defaults on their PCs.


    It's big business then. Assuming the suggested fee covers more than just the
    search default, and assuming it's enough bigger than Microsoft's offer to
    Dell for them be tempted, do you think Microsoft will try and top the
    offer?

    >I personally find it hyocritical that Google wants Microsoft to ask
    >consumers to make a conscious choice about search providers when Google
    >has not demanded that Firefox make consumers do similar choices in that
    >browser.


    Google don't own Firefox, but I do see your point. I'd have to find out
    exactly why Google is the default for Firefox. At the moment I assume it's
    mainly from a desire to offer what is currently the best engine. I'm not at
    all surprised that Google has complained, though - I believe it's exactly
    what Microsoft would have done if the positions were reversed.

    >I notice that when you browse to Google's homepage that you don't get
    >any choice - there is a default engine that you can't change, and there
    >is no choice. Maybe they can add some drop downs on the page to give
    >users choice to search with the Yahoo engine, or the MSN engine?


    That is not at all the same thing. I would expect the search box on Google's
    homepage to use the Google engine, just as I would expect the MSN homepage
    search to use the MSN engine, and this is exactly the way it is.

    (I find it interesting to see you using the same tactics as the only other
    Microsoft person I correspond with, someone in Research. I know it's
    coincidence, but it does bring to mind a picture of you both being products
    of a Microsoft school which teaches obfuscation, diversion and general
    weasel wording. :) )

    >The search setting in IE7 is very simple to change - I just set mine to
    >Google and it took 2 clicks and 2 seconds. Is Google worried about
    >people dumping it and moving to another engine because its not worth
    >the extra effort to click the mouse twice?


    It's not the effort, it's the knowledge that it can be done at all. They
    very likely have survey results of their own which contradict the ones
    Microsoft has quoted regarding the number of users who make the effort to
    change the default search. And as you pointed out, it's worth big dollars
    to be the default.

    --
    Don Hills (dmhills at attglobaldotnet) Wellington, New Zealand
    "New interface closely resembles Presentation Manager,
    preparing you for the wonders of OS/2!"
    -- Advertisement on the box for Microsoft Windows 2.11 for 286
    Don Hills, May 4, 2006
    #13
  14. T'was the Tue, 02 May 2006 18:00:58 +1200 when I remembered Have A
    Nice Cup of Tea <> saying something like this:

    >Micro$oft could, if it wanted to (which it clearly doesn't) set up the
    >"search" functionality to ask users to choose which search engine they
    >want to use - with no default setting pre-chosen.


    Firefox comes by default with the Google search box?
    --
    Cheers,

    Waylon Kenning.
    Waylon Kenning, May 5, 2006
    #14
  15. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    Shane Guest

    Waylon Kenning wrote:

    > T'was the Tue, 02 May 2006 18:00:58 +1200 when I remembered Have A
    > Nice Cup of Tea <> saying something like this:
    >
    >>Micro$oft could, if it wanted to (which it clearly doesn't) set up the
    >>"search" functionality to ask users to choose which search engine they
    >>want to use - with no default setting pre-chosen.

    >
    > Firefox comes by default with the Google search box?
    > --
    > Cheers,
    >
    > Waylon Kenning.



    And the mozilla foundation is paid by google when users use that box
    http://www.spamdailynews.com/publish/Mozilla_making_tens_of_millions_of_dollars_from_Firefox.asp
    In March 2006, Weblogs, Inc. founder Jason Calacanis reported a rumor on
    his blog that Mozilla Corporation gained $72M during the previous year,
    mainly thanks to the Google search box in the Firefox browser.

    The rumor was later addressed by Red Hat employee Christopher Blizzard, a
    member of the Mozilla Corporation board, who wrote on his blog that "it's
    not correct, though not off by an order of magnitude."

    __EOF__

    The only difference is they are seperate entitys, as opposed to
    Microsoft/MSN which have the same parent (eventually)

    --
    Rule 6: There is no rule 6
    Shane, May 5, 2006
    #15
  16. On Thu, 04 May 2006 05:46:20 -0700, Nathan Mercer wrote:

    > The search setting in IE7 is very simple to change - I just set mine to
    > Google and it took 2 clicks and 2 seconds. Is Google worried about
    > people dumping it and moving to another engine because its not worth
    > the extra effort to click the mouse twice?


    No - it is - rightly - worried about Micro$oft shafting it in the same way
    that it shafted Netscape!

    BTW, changing search engines in Firefox requires ONE click only.


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    1/ Migration to Linux only costs money once. Higher Windows TCO is forever.
    2/ "Shared source" is a poison pill. Open Source is freedom.
    3/ Only the Windows boxes get the worms.
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, May 5, 2006
    #16
  17. On Thu, 04 May 2006 05:46:20 -0700, Nathan Mercer wrote:

    > I personally find it hyocritical that Google wants Microsoft to ask
    > consumers to make a conscious choice about search providers when Google
    > has not demanded that Firefox make consumers do similar choices in that
    > browser.


    Firefox users (at least in the OS I use) can easily choose between
    searching through the contents of: Google.com, Yahoo.com, Amazon.com,
    Answers.com, Novell's website, Ebay, and Creative Commons. Firefox users
    can also easily add any other website to search through - all directly
    accessable from the search field on the address bar.

    On the version of Firefox installed on the OS I use (distributed by
    Novell), the default website to search through is Google - a website with
    no affilliations to Novell.


    > I notice that when you browse to Google's homepage that you don't get
    > any choice - there is a default engine that you can't change, and there
    > is no choice. Maybe they can add some drop downs on the page to give
    > users choice to search with the Yahoo engine, or the MSN engine?


    That is because Google's home page is the web interface for using Google's
    search engine.

    What you're wanting is to see Micro$oft having the Opera and Firefox
    Browsers available for download from the same page on Micro$oft's website
    that M$IE is downloaded from, and for Open Office, and the ODF plugin for
    M$-Offifce available for free download on the same page as it makes all
    the updates for M$-Office available on.


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    1/ Migration to Linux only costs money once. Higher Windows TCO is forever.
    2/ "Shared source" is a poison pill. Open Source is freedom.
    3/ Only the Windows boxes get the worms.
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, May 5, 2006
    #17
  18. On a pleasant day while strolling in nz.comp, a person by the name of
    Nathan Mercer exclaimed:
    > Aaron Lawrence wrote:
    >
    > > On a pleasant day while strolling in nz.comp, a person by the name of
    > > Nathan Mercer exclaimed:
    > > > MSN is NOT the default, here is no default built into IE7. IE7`
    > > > respects the users previous IE autosearch setting

    > >
    > > Yes, but in 90% of cases that is already MSN search. Not by choice, but
    > > because that was the default loaded with IE6.

    >
    > I'm not sure where the 90% figure comes from. Again from the IE Team
    > blog post:


    Interesting. OK, I change my mind then :)

    I guess I'm talking about the default OS installs I see most of.

    --
    aaronl at consultant dot com
    For every expert, there is an equal and
    opposite expert. - Arthur C. Clarke
    Aaron Lawrence, May 5, 2006
    #18
  19. On Sat, 06 May 2006 01:16:06 +1200, Aaron Lawrence wrote:

    >> I'm not sure where the 90% figure comes from. Again from the IE Team
    >> blog post:

    >
    > Interesting. OK, I change my mind then :)
    >
    > I guess I'm talking about the default OS installs I see most of.


    There is what members of the "IE Team" say and there is what Micro$oft
    management does behind their back.

    Remember - it is in the public record that Micro$oft has willfully lied to
    its own software engineers.


    Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    --
    1/ Migration to Linux only costs money once. Higher Windows TCO is forever.
    2/ "Shared source" is a poison pill. Open Source is freedom.
    3/ Only the Windows boxes get the worms.
    Have A Nice Cup of Tea, May 5, 2006
    #19
  20. Have A Nice Cup of Tea

    Rev. 9 11 Guest

    On , , Sat, 06 May 2006 10:25:37 +1200, Re: New M$ browser sends
    search queries to MSN - Google objects, Have A Nice Cup of Tea
    <> wrote:

    >On Sat, 06 May 2006 01:16:06 +1200, Aaron Lawrence wrote:
    >
    >>> I'm not sure where the 90% figure comes from. Again from the IE Team
    >>> blog post:

    >>
    >> Interesting. OK, I change my mind then :)
    >>
    >> I guess I'm talking about the default OS installs I see most of.

    >
    >There is what members of the "IE Team" say and there is what Micro$oft
    >management does behind their back.
    >
    >Remember - it is in the public record that Micro$oft has willfully lied to
    >its own software engineers.


    After reading your histrionic posts do you realise that you are
    the best advertisement for Microsoft and Windows yet invented?

    ---
    Rev. 9 11, May 7, 2006
    #20
    1. Advertising

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