NEW 8.5 gig DVD+R Disk Detection & Burn Speed

Discussion in 'DVD Video' started by Tech God, Nov 23, 2003.

  1. Tech God

    Tech God Guest

    Tech God, Nov 23, 2003
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Tech God

    CAM Guest

    On 23 Nov 2003 04:29:34 -0800, (Tech God)
    wrote:

    >I was wondering, when I read that the 8.5 gig DVD+R will be
    >released in April 04 :
    >
    >http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/33733.html
    >
    >Will my current Plextor model 708A drive be able to detect and
    >burn the new 8.5 gig disks at the drives maximum 8X speed or
    >will these new disks require a matching 8.5 gig drive to properly
    >detect the full capacity of the new larger media?
    >
    >My current drive:
    >
    >http://www.plextor.com/english/products/708A.html


    Only one slight problems and I think quite a big factor is no one has
    plans to make 8.5gb media. Only buy such a device if there is media to
    burn to and if that medi acan play in curremt dvd players. Its
    notsomething I'll be looking at. Pioneer are working on a dual layer
    dvd burner as well. By the time they get into thinking about making
    these blu ray will be with us.

    I current;y backup my dvd movies die to dvd rot which can only happen
    in dual layer media. I won't b erunning out to buy any such device
    that can burn to dual layer media. I rather burn to single layer
    media.

    If a dual layer burner came out next year who's going to b emaking the
    media for it and how much is it likely to cost and will it play back
    in dvd players would be some of the questions I'd be asking.
    These are likely to cost thousands if they ever make it.

    I'm moving up to thr a07 which is 8x burning and then I'll wait for
    the blu ray burners which has to be the future.
    CAM, Nov 23, 2003
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Uh, laser rot can occur in single layer media, remember laserdiscs my
    friend?

    "CAM" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On 23 Nov 2003 04:29:34 -0800, (Tech God)
    > wrote:
    >
    > >I was wondering, when I read that the 8.5 gig DVD+R will be
    > >released in April 04 :
    > >
    > >http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/33733.html
    > >
    > >Will my current Plextor model 708A drive be able to detect and
    > >burn the new 8.5 gig disks at the drives maximum 8X speed or
    > >will these new disks require a matching 8.5 gig drive to properly
    > >detect the full capacity of the new larger media?
    > >
    > >My current drive:
    > >
    > >http://www.plextor.com/english/products/708A.html

    >
    > Only one slight problems and I think quite a big factor is no one has
    > plans to make 8.5gb media. Only buy such a device if there is media to
    > burn to and if that medi acan play in curremt dvd players. Its
    > notsomething I'll be looking at. Pioneer are working on a dual layer
    > dvd burner as well. By the time they get into thinking about making
    > these blu ray will be with us.
    >
    > I current;y backup my dvd movies die to dvd rot which can only happen
    > in dual layer media. I won't b erunning out to buy any such device
    > that can burn to dual layer media. I rather burn to single layer
    > media.
    >
    > If a dual layer burner came out next year who's going to b emaking the
    > media for it and how much is it likely to cost and will it play back
    > in dvd players would be some of the questions I'd be asking.
    > These are likely to cost thousands if they ever make it.
    >
    > I'm moving up to thr a07 which is 8x burning and then I'll wait for
    > the blu ray burners which has to be the future.
    >
    NewKillerStar, Nov 23, 2003
    #3
  4. Tech God

    CAM Guest

    On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 08:14:14 -0500, "NewKillerStar"
    <> wrote:

    >Uh, laser rot can occur in single layer media, remember laserdiscs my
    >friend?


    No that's impossible with single layer media, just can't ever happen.
    Thereasin it can only ever happen on dual layer media is it occurs
    when the two layers merge which causes a coffee stain effect on the
    disc renderin it competely useless. Which is why it can never ever
    happen on single layer media.

    Now you can buy shit dvd-r meida where its not as good. This isn't
    anything to do with dvd rot, moe to do with the quality of dyes used
    on the meid aan dreflective layer.

    >
    >"CAM" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On 23 Nov 2003 04:29:34 -0800, (Tech God)
    >> wrote:
    >>
    >> >I was wondering, when I read that the 8.5 gig DVD+R will be
    >> >released in April 04 :
    >> >
    >> >http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/33733.html
    >> >
    >> >Will my current Plextor model 708A drive be able to detect and
    >> >burn the new 8.5 gig disks at the drives maximum 8X speed or
    >> >will these new disks require a matching 8.5 gig drive to properly
    >> >detect the full capacity of the new larger media?
    >> >
    >> >My current drive:
    >> >
    >> >http://www.plextor.com/english/products/708A.html

    >>
    >> Only one slight problems and I think quite a big factor is no one has
    >> plans to make 8.5gb media. Only buy such a device if there is media to
    >> burn to and if that medi acan play in curremt dvd players. Its
    >> notsomething I'll be looking at. Pioneer are working on a dual layer
    >> dvd burner as well. By the time they get into thinking about making
    >> these blu ray will be with us.
    >>
    >> I current;y backup my dvd movies die to dvd rot which can only happen
    >> in dual layer media. I won't b erunning out to buy any such device
    >> that can burn to dual layer media. I rather burn to single layer
    >> media.
    >>
    >> If a dual layer burner came out next year who's going to b emaking the
    >> media for it and how much is it likely to cost and will it play back
    >> in dvd players would be some of the questions I'd be asking.
    >> These are likely to cost thousands if they ever make it.
    >>
    >> I'm moving up to thr a07 which is 8x burning and then I'll wait for
    >> the blu ray burners which has to be the future.
    >>

    >
    CAM, Nov 23, 2003
    #4
  5. Laser rot is a manufacturing defect whereby the two halves of a laserdisc
    are improperly glued together, allowing air and other impurities to get in
    between. This causes a visible degradation of the image in the form of
    multi-colored speckles on screen. It usually starts from the edge and works
    its way inwards, meaning the beginning or ending of a side first. In extreme
    cases, it can make the disc unwatchable and may even affect the audio with
    pops and distortion. It is a condition without a cure, and it gets worse
    over time. A disc you last watched several years ago may have rotted to the
    point of unplayability in the meantime. Conversely, there have been cases (I
    had one) where a disc might be fully rotted as soon as you pull it out of
    the shrinkwrap.
    A rule of thumb is that signs of laser rot will manifest themselves within
    two years of a disc's manufacture. Since all laserdiscs were manufactured at
    least that long ago, any disc you watch now without seeing signs of rot will
    probably not develop them.

    "CAM" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 08:14:14 -0500, "NewKillerStar"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >Uh, laser rot can occur in single layer media, remember laserdiscs my
    > >friend?

    >
    > No that's impossible with single layer media, just can't ever happen.
    > Thereasin it can only ever happen on dual layer media is it occurs
    > when the two layers merge which causes a coffee stain effect on the
    > disc renderin it competely useless. Which is why it can never ever
    > happen on single layer media.
    >
    > Now you can buy shit dvd-r meida where its not as good. This isn't
    > anything to do with dvd rot, moe to do with the quality of dyes used
    > on the meid aan dreflective layer.
    >
    > >
    > >"CAM" <> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > >> On 23 Nov 2003 04:29:34 -0800, (Tech God)
    > >> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >I was wondering, when I read that the 8.5 gig DVD+R will be
    > >> >released in April 04 :
    > >> >
    > >> >http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/33733.html
    > >> >
    > >> >Will my current Plextor model 708A drive be able to detect and
    > >> >burn the new 8.5 gig disks at the drives maximum 8X speed or
    > >> >will these new disks require a matching 8.5 gig drive to properly
    > >> >detect the full capacity of the new larger media?
    > >> >
    > >> >My current drive:
    > >> >
    > >> >http://www.plextor.com/english/products/708A.html
    > >>
    > >> Only one slight problems and I think quite a big factor is no one has
    > >> plans to make 8.5gb media. Only buy such a device if there is media to
    > >> burn to and if that medi acan play in curremt dvd players. Its
    > >> notsomething I'll be looking at. Pioneer are working on a dual layer
    > >> dvd burner as well. By the time they get into thinking about making
    > >> these blu ray will be with us.
    > >>
    > >> I current;y backup my dvd movies die to dvd rot which can only happen
    > >> in dual layer media. I won't b erunning out to buy any such device
    > >> that can burn to dual layer media. I rather burn to single layer
    > >> media.
    > >>
    > >> If a dual layer burner came out next year who's going to b emaking the
    > >> media for it and how much is it likely to cost and will it play back
    > >> in dvd players would be some of the questions I'd be asking.
    > >> These are likely to cost thousands if they ever make it.
    > >>
    > >> I'm moving up to thr a07 which is 8x burning and then I'll wait for
    > >> the blu ray burners which has to be the future.
    > >>

    > >

    >
    NewKillerStar, Nov 23, 2003
    #5
  6. On 23 Nov 2003 04:29:34 -0800, (Tech God)
    wrote:

    >I was wondering, when I read that the 8.5 gig DVD+R will be
    >released in April 04 :
    >
    >http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/33733.html
    >
    >Will my current Plextor model 708A drive be able to detect and
    >burn the new 8.5 gig disks at the drives maximum 8X speed or
    >will these new disks require a matching 8.5 gig drive to properly
    >detect the full capacity of the new larger media?


    It's been suggested that it may be possible for some DVD+R writers to
    support dual-layer recording simply by upgrading the Firmware, but
    it's still early days. ...

    . Steve .
    >
    >My current drive:
    >
    >http://www.plextor.com/english/products/708A.html
    Steve(JazzHunter), Nov 23, 2003
    #6
  7. Tech God

    CAM Guest

    On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:05:23 -0500, "NewKillerStar"
    <> wrote:

    >Laser rot is a manufacturing defect whereby the two halves of a laserdisc
    >are improperly glued together, allowing air and other impurities to get in
    >between. This causes a visible degradation of the image in the form of
    >multi-colored speckles on screen. It usually starts from the edge and works
    >its way inwards, meaning the beginning or ending of a side first. In extreme
    >cases, it can make the disc unwatchable and may even affect the audio with
    >pops and distortion. It is a condition without a cure, and it gets worse
    >over time. A disc you last watched several years ago may have rotted to the
    >point of unplayability in the meantime. Conversely, there have been cases (I
    >had one) where a disc might be fully rotted as soon as you pull it out of
    >the shrinkwrap.
    >A rule of thumb is that signs of laser rot will manifest themselves within
    >two years of a disc's manufacture. Since all laserdiscs were manufactured at
    >least that long ago, any disc you watch now without seeing signs of rot will
    >probably not develop them.


    We are not talking about laser media but dvd media. It is totally
    impossible to get dvd rot on single later dvd media. Just impossible
    to ever happen because dvd-r/+r/-rw/+rw/-ram is all single layer 4.7gb
    media.

    dvd rot occurs on about 10% of dual layer dvd media which is what dvd
    movies and tv shows and the like are printed on.

    You cannot get dvd rot on a single layer dvd disc. It is impossible.
    Don't confuse certain brands of dvd media which don't burn to well or
    play back to well with dvd rot. This has absolutely nothing to do with
    dvd rot.

    dvd rot is when two layers merge on dual layer media causing a coffee
    stain effect. Suggest you go to google and do a net search on dvd rot.
    There are thousands of sites explaining ho wthi sonly occurs on dual
    layer media.


    >
    >"CAM" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 08:14:14 -0500, "NewKillerStar"
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >Uh, laser rot can occur in single layer media, remember laserdiscs my
    >> >friend?

    >>
    >> No that's impossible with single layer media, just can't ever happen.
    >> Thereasin it can only ever happen on dual layer media is it occurs
    >> when the two layers merge which causes a coffee stain effect on the
    >> disc renderin it competely useless. Which is why it can never ever
    >> happen on single layer media.
    >>
    >> Now you can buy shit dvd-r meida where its not as good. This isn't
    >> anything to do with dvd rot, moe to do with the quality of dyes used
    >> on the meid aan dreflective layer.
    >>
    >> >
    >> >"CAM" <> wrote in message
    >> >news:...
    >> >> On 23 Nov 2003 04:29:34 -0800, (Tech God)
    >> >> wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> >I was wondering, when I read that the 8.5 gig DVD+R will be
    >> >> >released in April 04 :
    >> >> >
    >> >> >http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/33733.html
    >> >> >
    >> >> >Will my current Plextor model 708A drive be able to detect and
    >> >> >burn the new 8.5 gig disks at the drives maximum 8X speed or
    >> >> >will these new disks require a matching 8.5 gig drive to properly
    >> >> >detect the full capacity of the new larger media?
    >> >> >
    >> >> >My current drive:
    >> >> >
    >> >> >http://www.plextor.com/english/products/708A.html
    >> >>
    >> >> Only one slight problems and I think quite a big factor is no one has
    >> >> plans to make 8.5gb media. Only buy such a device if there is media to
    >> >> burn to and if that medi acan play in curremt dvd players. Its
    >> >> notsomething I'll be looking at. Pioneer are working on a dual layer
    >> >> dvd burner as well. By the time they get into thinking about making
    >> >> these blu ray will be with us.
    >> >>
    >> >> I current;y backup my dvd movies die to dvd rot which can only happen
    >> >> in dual layer media. I won't b erunning out to buy any such device
    >> >> that can burn to dual layer media. I rather burn to single layer
    >> >> media.
    >> >>
    >> >> If a dual layer burner came out next year who's going to b emaking the
    >> >> media for it and how much is it likely to cost and will it play back
    >> >> in dvd players would be some of the questions I'd be asking.
    >> >> These are likely to cost thousands if they ever make it.
    >> >>
    >> >> I'm moving up to thr a07 which is 8x burning and then I'll wait for
    >> >> the blu ray burners which has to be the future.
    >> >>
    >> >

    >>

    >
    CAM, Nov 23, 2003
    #7
  8. I see what you are saying now, I stand corrected. Thanks for the response, I
    learned alot.;-)

    "CAM" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 10:05:23 -0500, "NewKillerStar"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >Laser rot is a manufacturing defect whereby the two halves of a laserdisc
    > >are improperly glued together, allowing air and other impurities to get

    in
    > >between. This causes a visible degradation of the image in the form of
    > >multi-colored speckles on screen. It usually starts from the edge and

    works
    > >its way inwards, meaning the beginning or ending of a side first. In

    extreme
    > >cases, it can make the disc unwatchable and may even affect the audio

    with
    > >pops and distortion. It is a condition without a cure, and it gets worse
    > >over time. A disc you last watched several years ago may have rotted to

    the
    > >point of unplayability in the meantime. Conversely, there have been cases

    (I
    > >had one) where a disc might be fully rotted as soon as you pull it out of
    > >the shrinkwrap.
    > >A rule of thumb is that signs of laser rot will manifest themselves

    within
    > >two years of a disc's manufacture. Since all laserdiscs were manufactured

    at
    > >least that long ago, any disc you watch now without seeing signs of rot

    will
    > >probably not develop them.

    >
    > We are not talking about laser media but dvd media. It is totally
    > impossible to get dvd rot on single later dvd media. Just impossible
    > to ever happen because dvd-r/+r/-rw/+rw/-ram is all single layer 4.7gb
    > media.
    >
    > dvd rot occurs on about 10% of dual layer dvd media which is what dvd
    > movies and tv shows and the like are printed on.
    >
    > You cannot get dvd rot on a single layer dvd disc. It is impossible.
    > Don't confuse certain brands of dvd media which don't burn to well or
    > play back to well with dvd rot. This has absolutely nothing to do with
    > dvd rot.
    >
    > dvd rot is when two layers merge on dual layer media causing a coffee
    > stain effect. Suggest you go to google and do a net search on dvd rot.
    > There are thousands of sites explaining ho wthi sonly occurs on dual
    > layer media.
    >
    >
    > >
    > >"CAM" <> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > >> On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 08:14:14 -0500, "NewKillerStar"
    > >> <> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >Uh, laser rot can occur in single layer media, remember laserdiscs my
    > >> >friend?
    > >>
    > >> No that's impossible with single layer media, just can't ever happen.
    > >> Thereasin it can only ever happen on dual layer media is it occurs
    > >> when the two layers merge which causes a coffee stain effect on the
    > >> disc renderin it competely useless. Which is why it can never ever
    > >> happen on single layer media.
    > >>
    > >> Now you can buy shit dvd-r meida where its not as good. This isn't
    > >> anything to do with dvd rot, moe to do with the quality of dyes used
    > >> on the meid aan dreflective layer.
    > >>
    > >> >
    > >> >"CAM" <> wrote in message
    > >> >news:...
    > >> >> On 23 Nov 2003 04:29:34 -0800, (Tech God)
    > >> >> wrote:
    > >> >>
    > >> >> >I was wondering, when I read that the 8.5 gig DVD+R will be
    > >> >> >released in April 04 :
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> >http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/33733.html
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> >Will my current Plextor model 708A drive be able to detect and
    > >> >> >burn the new 8.5 gig disks at the drives maximum 8X speed or
    > >> >> >will these new disks require a matching 8.5 gig drive to properly
    > >> >> >detect the full capacity of the new larger media?
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> >My current drive:
    > >> >> >
    > >> >> >http://www.plextor.com/english/products/708A.html
    > >> >>
    > >> >> Only one slight problems and I think quite a big factor is no one

    has
    > >> >> plans to make 8.5gb media. Only buy such a device if there is media

    to
    > >> >> burn to and if that medi acan play in curremt dvd players. Its
    > >> >> notsomething I'll be looking at. Pioneer are working on a dual layer
    > >> >> dvd burner as well. By the time they get into thinking about making
    > >> >> these blu ray will be with us.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> I current;y backup my dvd movies die to dvd rot which can only

    happen
    > >> >> in dual layer media. I won't b erunning out to buy any such device
    > >> >> that can burn to dual layer media. I rather burn to single layer
    > >> >> media.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> If a dual layer burner came out next year who's going to b emaking

    the
    > >> >> media for it and how much is it likely to cost and will it play back
    > >> >> in dvd players would be some of the questions I'd be asking.
    > >> >> These are likely to cost thousands if they ever make it.
    > >> >>
    > >> >> I'm moving up to thr a07 which is 8x burning and then I'll wait for
    > >> >> the blu ray burners which has to be the future.
    > >> >>
    > >> >
    > >>

    > >

    >
    NewKillerStar, Nov 23, 2003
    #8
  9. Tech God

    luminos Guest

    No way. The laws of physics cannot be broken.


    "Steve(JazzHunter)" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On 23 Nov 2003 04:29:34 -0800, (Tech God)
    > wrote:
    >
    > >I was wondering, when I read that the 8.5 gig DVD+R will be
    > >released in April 04 :
    > >
    > >http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/33733.html
    > >
    > >Will my current Plextor model 708A drive be able to detect and
    > >burn the new 8.5 gig disks at the drives maximum 8X speed or
    > >will these new disks require a matching 8.5 gig drive to properly
    > >detect the full capacity of the new larger media?

    >
    > It's been suggested that it may be possible for some DVD+R writers to
    > support dual-layer recording simply by upgrading the Firmware, but
    > it's still early days. ...
    >
    > . Steve .
    > >
    > >My current drive:
    > >
    > >http://www.plextor.com/english/products/708A.html

    >
    luminos, Nov 23, 2003
    #9
  10. Tech God

    What The! Guest

    i'd like to see how that is possible considering that it requires a change
    in the wavelength of the laser to reach the second layer.


    "Steve(JazzHunter)" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On 23 Nov 2003 04:29:34 -0800, (Tech God)
    > wrote:
    >
    > >I was wondering, when I read that the 8.5 gig DVD+R will be
    > >released in April 04 :
    > >
    > >http://www.theregister.co.uk/content/54/33733.html
    > >
    > >Will my current Plextor model 708A drive be able to detect and
    > >burn the new 8.5 gig disks at the drives maximum 8X speed or
    > >will these new disks require a matching 8.5 gig drive to properly
    > >detect the full capacity of the new larger media?

    >
    > It's been suggested that it may be possible for some DVD+R writers to
    > support dual-layer recording simply by upgrading the Firmware, but
    > it's still early days. ...
    >
    > . Steve .
    > >
    > >My current drive:
    > >
    > >http://www.plextor.com/english/products/708A.html

    >
    What The!, Nov 24, 2003
    #10
  11. Tech God

    Will Dormann Guest

    What The! wrote:

    > i'd like to see how that is possible considering that it requires a change
    > in the wavelength of the laser to reach the second layer.



    You mean "focus", not "wavelength".



    -WD
    Will Dormann, Nov 24, 2003
    #11
  12. On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 01:42:57 GMT, Will Dormann
    <> wrote:

    >What The! wrote:
    >
    >> i'd like to see how that is possible considering that it requires a change
    >> in the wavelength of the laser to reach the second layer.

    >
    >
    >You mean "focus", not "wavelength".


    Yes, preciesly, the laser has to refocus to the second layer. It is
    possible that existing servo circuits, currently used to make the
    laser retain focus on current single layer discs, may also be able to
    refocus and lock onto the second layer. All the hardware actually in
    is in the recorder to be able to do this. This is not a big step. The
    writeup on this possiblity has actually been provided by Plextor, the
    make of the 708. I'm afraid I didn't save the link but I'm betting
    we'll be hearing more about this, and about the recorders that will
    and won't be able to accept this simple Firmware reprogramming. In
    sum total to record n the second layer the laser has to be increased
    in power, refocused, and spiral in from the outside to the inside,
    instead of in to out. This also means that finalizing the DVD will be
    a different technique. Again a combination of the recorder's bios
    programming and the driver software (maybe ASPI won't work) plus
    recording software may allow some current recorders to make a cheap or
    even free transiton to the dual-layer standard.

    They once said that a single recorder couldn't possibly do both + and
    - RW... But that one did require new hardware.

    . Steve .
    >
    >
    >
    >-WD
    Steve(JazzHunter), Nov 24, 2003
    #12
  13. Tech God

    specise_8472 Guest

    Actually there are two types of duel layer burn types.
    When reach outside of disk - go back from outside to inside,
    or reset laser to inside and go out again.
    Programs like MAESTRO allow you to choose which
    method when mastering to DLT for duel layer disks.
    The premastering factory obviously has to know which
    type of disk it is.

    You can see this effect in some movies - there is a pause
    in the layer transistion - which is annoying at least. But the
    head has to travel back in and refocus then play.

    On Sun, 23 Nov 2003 22:40:23 -0500, "Steve(JazzHunter)"
    <> wrote:

    >On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 01:42:57 GMT, Will Dormann
    ><> wrote:
    >
    >>What The! wrote:
    >>
    >>> i'd like to see how that is possible considering that it requires a change
    >>> in the wavelength of the laser to reach the second layer.

    >>
    >>
    >>You mean "focus", not "wavelength".

    >
    >Yes, preciesly, the laser has to refocus to the second layer. It is
    >possible that existing servo circuits, currently used to make the
    >laser retain focus on current single layer discs, may also be able to
    >refocus and lock onto the second layer. All the hardware actually in
    >is in the recorder to be able to do this. This is not a big step. The
    >writeup on this possiblity has actually been provided by Plextor, the
    >make of the 708. I'm afraid I didn't save the link but I'm betting
    >we'll be hearing more about this, and about the recorders that will
    >and won't be able to accept this simple Firmware reprogramming. In
    >sum total to record n the second layer the laser has to be increased
    >in power, refocused, and spiral in from the outside to the inside,
    >instead of in to out. This also means that finalizing the DVD will be
    >a different technique. Again a combination of the recorder's bios
    >programming and the driver software (maybe ASPI won't work) plus
    >recording software may allow some current recorders to make a cheap or
    >even free transiton to the dual-layer standard.
    >
    >They once said that a single recorder couldn't possibly do both + and
    >- RW... But that one did require new hardware.
    >
    > . Steve .
    >>
    >>
    >>
    >>-WD
    specise_8472, Nov 24, 2003
    #13
  14. Tech God

    luminos Guest

    The dye substrate for the second layer requires a different wavelength
    laser. Please read the site on the silver alloy dye used.

    "Steve(JazzHunter)" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 01:42:57 GMT, Will Dormann
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >What The! wrote:
    > >
    > >> i'd like to see how that is possible considering that it requires a

    change
    > >> in the wavelength of the laser to reach the second layer.

    > >
    > >
    > >You mean "focus", not "wavelength".

    >
    > Yes, preciesly, the laser has to refocus to the second layer. It is
    > possible that existing servo circuits, currently used to make the
    > laser retain focus on current single layer discs, may also be able to
    > refocus and lock onto the second layer. All the hardware actually in
    > is in the recorder to be able to do this. This is not a big step. The
    > writeup on this possiblity has actually been provided by Plextor, the
    > make of the 708. I'm afraid I didn't save the link but I'm betting
    > we'll be hearing more about this, and about the recorders that will
    > and won't be able to accept this simple Firmware reprogramming. In
    > sum total to record n the second layer the laser has to be increased
    > in power, refocused, and spiral in from the outside to the inside,
    > instead of in to out. This also means that finalizing the DVD will be
    > a different technique. Again a combination of the recorder's bios
    > programming and the driver software (maybe ASPI won't work) plus
    > recording software may allow some current recorders to make a cheap or
    > even free transiton to the dual-layer standard.
    >
    > They once said that a single recorder couldn't possibly do both + and
    > - RW... But that one did require new hardware.
    >
    > . Steve .
    > >
    > >
    > >
    > >-WD

    >
    luminos, Nov 24, 2003
    #14
  15. On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 06:22:43 GMT, "luminos" <> wrote:

    >The dye substrate for the second layer requires a different wavelength
    >laser. Please read the site on the silver alloy dye used.


    No, it's the same laser, and same wavelength, the two layers of the
    DVD+R are of different composition.
    http://www.dvdrw.com/press/duallayer.htm

    Officially current DVD+R machines can't write to dual-layer, but a
    group (Pioneer) is working on a way to make that a possibliity.

    DVD-R dual-layer is more difficult, there may have to be a technique
    using polarized layers. A laser can not "change it's wavelength" it
    is physically designed to resonate just at one frequency, that's what
    allows it to produce coherent light.

    . Steve ..


    >"Steve(JazzHunter)" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 01:42:57 GMT, Will Dormann
    >> <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >What The! wrote:
    >> >
    >> >> i'd like to see how that is possible considering that it requires a

    >change
    >> >> in the wavelength of the laser to reach the second layer.
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >You mean "focus", not "wavelength".

    >>
    >> Yes, preciesly, the laser has to refocus to the second layer. It is
    >> possible that existing servo circuits, currently used to make the
    >> laser retain focus on current single layer discs, may also be able to
    >> refocus and lock onto the second layer. All the hardware actually in
    >> is in the recorder to be able to do this. This is not a big step. The
    >> writeup on this possiblity has actually been provided by Plextor, the
    >> make of the 708. I'm afraid I didn't save the link but I'm betting
    >> we'll be hearing more about this, and about the recorders that will
    >> and won't be able to accept this simple Firmware reprogramming. In
    >> sum total to record n the second layer the laser has to be increased
    >> in power, refocused, and spiral in from the outside to the inside,
    >> instead of in to out. This also means that finalizing the DVD will be
    >> a different technique. Again a combination of the recorder's bios
    >> programming and the driver software (maybe ASPI won't work) plus
    >> recording software may allow some current recorders to make a cheap or
    >> even free transiton to the dual-layer standard.
    >>
    >> They once said that a single recorder couldn't possibly do both + and
    >> - RW... But that one did require new hardware.
    >>
    >> . Steve .
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >
    >> >-WD

    >>

    >
    Steve(JazzHunter), Nov 24, 2003
    #15
  16. Tech God

    luminos Guest

    Mea Culpa, I think. Someone told me writing frequencies are related to but
    not identical to reading frequencies.

    Anyway, I am trying to visualize how the current hardware will deal with the
    different spin-rate, step-motor parameters, and
    such for this new format with a simple firmware upgrade.

    "Steve(JazzHunter)" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 06:22:43 GMT, "luminos" <> wrote:
    >
    > >The dye substrate for the second layer requires a different wavelength
    > >laser. Please read the site on the silver alloy dye used.

    >
    > No, it's the same laser, and same wavelength, the two layers of the
    > DVD+R are of different composition.
    > http://www.dvdrw.com/press/duallayer.htm
    >
    > Officially current DVD+R machines can't write to dual-layer, but a
    > group (Pioneer) is working on a way to make that a possibliity.
    >
    > DVD-R dual-layer is more difficult, there may have to be a technique
    > using polarized layers. A laser can not "change it's wavelength" it
    > is physically designed to resonate just at one frequency, that's what
    > allows it to produce coherent light.
    >
    > . Steve ..
    >
    >
    > >"Steve(JazzHunter)" <> wrote in message
    > >news:...
    > >> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 01:42:57 GMT, Will Dormann
    > >> <> wrote:
    > >>
    > >> >What The! wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> >> i'd like to see how that is possible considering that it requires a

    > >change
    > >> >> in the wavelength of the laser to reach the second layer.
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> >You mean "focus", not "wavelength".
    > >>
    > >> Yes, preciesly, the laser has to refocus to the second layer. It is
    > >> possible that existing servo circuits, currently used to make the
    > >> laser retain focus on current single layer discs, may also be able to
    > >> refocus and lock onto the second layer. All the hardware actually in
    > >> is in the recorder to be able to do this. This is not a big step. The
    > >> writeup on this possiblity has actually been provided by Plextor, the
    > >> make of the 708. I'm afraid I didn't save the link but I'm betting
    > >> we'll be hearing more about this, and about the recorders that will
    > >> and won't be able to accept this simple Firmware reprogramming. In
    > >> sum total to record n the second layer the laser has to be increased
    > >> in power, refocused, and spiral in from the outside to the inside,
    > >> instead of in to out. This also means that finalizing the DVD will be
    > >> a different technique. Again a combination of the recorder's bios
    > >> programming and the driver software (maybe ASPI won't work) plus
    > >> recording software may allow some current recorders to make a cheap or
    > >> even free transiton to the dual-layer standard.
    > >>
    > >> They once said that a single recorder couldn't possibly do both + and
    > >> - RW... But that one did require new hardware.
    > >>
    > >> . Steve .
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> >
    > >> >-WD
    > >>

    > >

    >
    luminos, Nov 24, 2003
    #16
  17. On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:19:22 GMT, "luminos" <> wrote:

    >Mea Culpa, I think. Someone told me writing frequencies are related to but
    >not identical to reading frequencies.
    >
    >Anyway, I am trying to visualize how the current hardware will deal with the
    >different spin-rate, step-motor parameters, and
    >such for this new format with a simple firmware upgrade.


    Well that's the simple part. The "Step Motor" is of the so-called
    Voice Coil type, meaning it's continous, controlled by the servo. And
    of course spin rate has always been a function of the servo and read
    speed requirment. That's not the issue, the hard part is whether the
    layput of the mirrors in the pickup that read back the reflection of
    the laser (from the media surface) to aid in positioning the lens can
    deal with the different track shape and depth of the second layer
    while not being confused by the structure of the upper transparent
    surface and binder between the layers. And this is where one model's
    pickup construction may work on a media it's not designed for, simply
    by modified processing in the Bios, whereas another model may not
    physically be able to deal with the media nohow.. (sic).

    . Steve ..
    >
    >"Steve(JazzHunter)" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 06:22:43 GMT, "luminos" <> wrote:
    >>
    >> >The dye substrate for the second layer requires a different wavelength
    >> >laser. Please read the site on the silver alloy dye used.

    >>
    >> No, it's the same laser, and same wavelength, the two layers of the
    >> DVD+R are of different composition.
    >> http://www.dvdrw.com/press/duallayer.htm
    >>
    >> Officially current DVD+R machines can't write to dual-layer, but a
    >> group (Pioneer) is working on a way to make that a possibliity.
    >>
    >> DVD-R dual-layer is more difficult, there may have to be a technique
    >> using polarized layers. A laser can not "change it's wavelength" it
    >> is physically designed to resonate just at one frequency, that's what
    >> allows it to produce coherent light.
    >>
    >> . Steve ..
    >>
    >>
    >> >"Steve(JazzHunter)" <> wrote in message
    >> >news:...
    >> >> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 01:42:57 GMT, Will Dormann
    >> >> <> wrote:
    >> >>
    >> >> >What The! wrote:
    >> >> >
    >> >> >> i'd like to see how that is possible considering that it requires a
    >> >change
    >> >> >> in the wavelength of the laser to reach the second layer.
    >> >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >> >You mean "focus", not "wavelength".
    >> >>
    >> >> Yes, preciesly, the laser has to refocus to the second layer. It is
    >> >> possible that existing servo circuits, currently used to make the
    >> >> laser retain focus on current single layer discs, may also be able to
    >> >> refocus and lock onto the second layer. All the hardware actually in
    >> >> is in the recorder to be able to do this. This is not a big step. The
    >> >> writeup on this possiblity has actually been provided by Plextor, the
    >> >> make of the 708. I'm afraid I didn't save the link but I'm betting
    >> >> we'll be hearing more about this, and about the recorders that will
    >> >> and won't be able to accept this simple Firmware reprogramming. In
    >> >> sum total to record n the second layer the laser has to be increased
    >> >> in power, refocused, and spiral in from the outside to the inside,
    >> >> instead of in to out. This also means that finalizing the DVD will be
    >> >> a different technique. Again a combination of the recorder's bios
    >> >> programming and the driver software (maybe ASPI won't work) plus
    >> >> recording software may allow some current recorders to make a cheap or
    >> >> even free transiton to the dual-layer standard.
    >> >>
    >> >> They once said that a single recorder couldn't possibly do both + and
    >> >> - RW... But that one did require new hardware.
    >> >>
    >> >> . Steve .
    >> >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >> >
    >> >> >-WD
    >> >>
    >> >

    >>

    >
    Steve(JazzHunter), Nov 24, 2003
    #17
  18. On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 05:31:37 -0500, "Steve(JazzHunter)"
    <> wrote:

    >On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 08:19:22 GMT, "luminos" <> wrote:
    >
    >>Mea Culpa, I think. Someone told me writing frequencies are related to but
    >>not identical to reading frequencies.
    >>
    >>Anyway, I am trying to visualize how the current hardware will deal with the
    >>different spin-rate, step-motor parameters, and
    >>such for this new format with a simple firmware upgrade.

    >
    >Well that's the simple part. The "Step Motor" is of the so-called
    >Voice Coil type, meaning it's continous, controlled by the servo. And
    >of course spin rate has always been a function of the servo and read
    >speed requirment. That's not the issue, the hard part is whether the
    >layput of the mirrors in the pickup that read back the reflection of
    >the laser (from the media surface) to aid in positioning the lens can
    >deal with the different track shape and depth of the second layer
    >while not being confused by the structure of the upper transparent
    >surface and binder between the layers. And this is where one model's
    >pickup construction may work on a media it's not designed for, simply
    >by modified processing in the Bios, whereas another model may not
    >physically be able to deal with the media nohow.. (sic).


    I forgot to mention the most important point. The dual-layer DVD+RW
    media from Philips is designed to be fully compatible with all current
    units that can play back DVD+R and dual-layer DVD, so the tracking and
    spindle speed and spiral bias are already fully supported. The only
    difference is whether the laser will be able to remain focused on the
    second layer while it is still blank during writing. There is already
    one Dual-layer DVD+RW on the market (for $1000+) and marketing-wise
    there is no reason not to support bios-flashing to retrofit legacy
    DVD+R units for dual-layer, since the suddenness of the arrival of
    this new technology means that there would otherwise be a lot of
    single-layer writers that would have to been blown off really cheap or
    remain unsold, and the new dual-layer writers aren't really any more
    expensive to manufacture. Also since it's a competition between +RW
    and -RW this would be a HUGE push for the +RW camp since it really
    does seem that -RW dual-layer media requires a new technology, such as
    polarized lasers, that can't be a simple retrofit. - Legacy -RW units
    couldn't be retrofitted, thus would be worth much less than some
    Legacy +RW's that could be such. But this is, as I say, all early
    days....

    . Steve ..
    > . Steve ..
    >>
    >>"Steve(JazzHunter)" <> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 06:22:43 GMT, "luminos" <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>> >The dye substrate for the second layer requires a different wavelength
    >>> >laser. Please read the site on the silver alloy dye used.
    >>>
    >>> No, it's the same laser, and same wavelength, the two layers of the
    >>> DVD+R are of different composition.
    >>> http://www.dvdrw.com/press/duallayer.htm
    >>>
    >>> Officially current DVD+R machines can't write to dual-layer, but a
    >>> group (Pioneer) is working on a way to make that a possibliity.
    >>>
    >>> DVD-R dual-layer is more difficult, there may have to be a technique
    >>> using polarized layers. A laser can not "change it's wavelength" it
    >>> is physically designed to resonate just at one frequency, that's what
    >>> allows it to produce coherent light.
    >>>
    >>> . Steve ..
    >>>
    >>>
    >>> >"Steve(JazzHunter)" <> wrote in message
    >>> >news:...
    >>> >> On Mon, 24 Nov 2003 01:42:57 GMT, Will Dormann
    >>> >> <> wrote:
    >>> >>
    >>> >> >What The! wrote:
    >>> >> >
    >>> >> >> i'd like to see how that is possible considering that it requires a
    >>> >change
    >>> >> >> in the wavelength of the laser to reach the second layer.
    >>> >> >
    >>> >> >
    >>> >> >You mean "focus", not "wavelength".
    >>> >>
    >>> >> Yes, preciesly, the laser has to refocus to the second layer. It is
    >>> >> possible that existing servo circuits, currently used to make the
    >>> >> laser retain focus on current single layer discs, may also be able to
    >>> >> refocus and lock onto the second layer. All the hardware actually in
    >>> >> is in the recorder to be able to do this. This is not a big step. The
    >>> >> writeup on this possiblity has actually been provided by Plextor, the
    >>> >> make of the 708. I'm afraid I didn't save the link but I'm betting
    >>> >> we'll be hearing more about this, and about the recorders that will
    >>> >> and won't be able to accept this simple Firmware reprogramming. In
    >>> >> sum total to record n the second layer the laser has to be increased
    >>> >> in power, refocused, and spiral in from the outside to the inside,
    >>> >> instead of in to out. This also means that finalizing the DVD will be
    >>> >> a different technique. Again a combination of the recorder's bios
    >>> >> programming and the driver software (maybe ASPI won't work) plus
    >>> >> recording software may allow some current recorders to make a cheap or
    >>> >> even free transiton to the dual-layer standard.
    >>> >>
    >>> >> They once said that a single recorder couldn't possibly do both + and
    >>> >> - RW... But that one did require new hardware.
    >>> >>
    >>> >> . Steve .
    >>> >> >
    >>> >> >
    >>> >> >
    >>> >> >-WD
    >>> >>
    >>> >
    >>>

    >>
    Steve(JazzHunter), Nov 24, 2003
    #18
  19. This is going to have a *HUGE* impact on piracy.
    MR_ED_of_Course, Nov 24, 2003
    #19
  20. Tech God

    Frank Guest

    "Will Dormann" <> wrote in message
    news:Bmdwb.20025$...
    > What The! wrote:
    >
    > > i'd like to see how that is possible considering that it requires a

    change
    > > in the wavelength of the laser to reach the second layer.

    >
    >
    > You mean "focus", not "wavelength".
    >
    >
    >
    > -WD


    you'll find that it is the wavelength that is different to burn each layer
    otherwise you'd end up corrupting the layer that you're not recording to
    Frank, Nov 24, 2003
    #20
    1. Advertising

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