Neilson Study: File Sharing BOOSTS Record Sales......

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by steve, May 15, 2004.

  1. steve

    steve Guest

    This study fits with my own practice. I'll download songs by an artisit
    I'm curious about...and then if I like it< I'll go buy the album. If I
    don't like it, I'll delete the files.......as a waste of space.

    Saves going to the record store to listen to them on the their headsets
    - for free.

    http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18698

    Extract (partial):

    ........

    But a new study by Harvard Business School and University of North
    Carolina is going against the popular beliefs surrounding filesharing.
    After tracking 1.75 million downloads over a 17-week period in 2002 and
    then comparing those observations to the sales of 680 popular albums,
    the study found that filesharing has no negative effect on CD sales.

    In fact, for the most popular 25 percent of CDs, the study found that
    downloading boosts sales. For every 150 songs downloaded, sales of that
    album jumped one copy.

    "Initially, we were surprised by our results, given the consistent claim
    that P2P hurts sales," says Koleman Strumpf, co-author with Felix
    Oberholzer-Gee. "But on deeper reflection, not so much. Filesharing can
    potentially boost sales through the user learning about new music, and
    this could offset the substitution for buying, as is often claimed."

    ...........
     
    steve, May 15, 2004
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. steve wrote:

    >
    > This study fits with my own practice. I'll download songs by an artisit
    > I'm curious about...and then if I like it< I'll go buy the album. If I
    > don't like it, I'll delete the files.......as a waste of space.
    >
    > Saves going to the record store to listen to them on the their headsets
    > - for free.
    >
    > http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18698
    >
    > Extract (partial):
    >
    > .......
    >
    > But a new study by Harvard Business School and University of North
    > Carolina is going against the popular beliefs surrounding filesharing.
    > After tracking 1.75 million downloads over a 17-week period in 2002 and
    > then comparing those observations to the sales of 680 popular albums,
    > the study found that filesharing has no negative effect on CD sales.
    >
    > In fact, for the most popular 25 percent of CDs, the study found that
    > downloading boosts sales. For every 150 songs downloaded, sales of that
    > album jumped one copy.
    >
    > "Initially, we were surprised by our results, given the consistent claim
    > that P2P hurts sales," says Koleman Strumpf, co-author with Felix
    > Oberholzer-Gee. "But on deeper reflection, not so much. Filesharing can
    > potentially boost sales through the user learning about new music, and
    > this could offset the substitution for buying, as is often claimed."
    >
    > ..........


    Fits in with my own theory that the real reason Music CD sales are going
    down is because most of the stuff ["modern music"] is crap. Not because
    people will not buy the CD if they have downloaded some of the songs.
     
    Murray Sutherland, May 15, 2004
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. steve

    Peter Guest

    steve wrote:
    > "Initially, we were surprised by our results, given the consistent claim
    > that P2P hurts sales," says Koleman Strumpf, co-author with Felix
    > Oberholzer-Gee. "But on deeper reflection, not so much. Filesharing can
    > potentially boost sales through the user learning about new music, and
    > this could offset the substitution for buying, as is often claimed."


    Actually, I think those non-standard CDs are part of the problem. There has
    been a couple of occasions recently where I wanted to buy a music CD, but
    it was marked as non-standard format. I didn't buy it because apparently
    these don't work in PCs, which is one of the places I want to listen to it.

    Maybe if music corporations offered products in formats that everyone can
    use, they'd find more buyers.


    Peter
     
    Peter, May 15, 2004
    #3
  4. steve

    steve Guest

    Murray Sutherland wrote:

    > Fits in with my own theory that the real reason Music CD sales are going
    > down is because most of the stuff ["modern music"] is crap. Not because
    > people will not buy the CD if they have downloaded some of the songs.


    I have to agree with you there.

    I listen more than I used to...and buy less.

    There is less I want to buy.

    Hip-hop? I didn't like it when they called the same stuff "funk" in the
    1970s.
     
    steve, May 15, 2004
    #4
  5. In article <40a5fd4a$>, steve@mozilla-
    thunderbird0.6.org.nz says...
    >
    >
    > This study fits with my own practice. I'll download songs by an artisit
    > I'm curious about...and then if I like it< I'll go buy the album. If I
    > don't like it, I'll delete the files.......as a waste of space.
    >
    > Saves going to the record store to listen to them on the their headsets
    > - for free.
    >
    >



    Indeed. The whole debate is ancient history repeating itself. Many many
    years ago (35ish) when many people had reel to reel tape decks, the
    record industry was bleating about being done out of their righful
    earnings by people recording songs off each other and the radio ...
    ... somebody did a thorough study and came up with the info that the
    people who were recording the most were also the people who were buying
    and collecting the most records - that the practice of recording songs
    was boosting interest and curiosity leading to increased sales, not
    reduced.

    The dickhead suits just don't learn. The whole area of movie and record
    industry seems so driven by short sighted greed, they almost make
    Federated Farmers look good <grin>

    -Peter
     
    Peter Huebner, May 15, 2004
    #5
  6. steve

    Andrew Guest

    steve, when stopped by the local constabulary on 15/05/2004 11:16 p.m.,
    made the following statement:
    >
    > This study fits with my own practice. I'll download songs by an artisit
    > I'm curious about...and then if I like it< I'll go buy the album. If I
    > don't like it, I'll delete the files.......as a waste of space.
    >
    > Saves going to the record store to listen to them on the their headsets
    > - for free.
    >
    > http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18698
    >

    [snip]

    You think that's interesting?

    http://www.kensei-news.com/bizdev/publish/factoids_us/article_23374.shtml

    ---8<---
    - For the first quarter of 2003 Soundscan registered 147,000,000 records
    sold.

    - For the 1st quarter of 2004 Soundscan will report 160,000,000 records
    sold.

    That's 13,000,000 more units, almost a 10% increase in sales since last
    year. He also confessed that 1st quarter "album sales" (as opposed to
    overall sales) had increased 9.4% since 2003.

    ....

    "The RIAA reports a sale as a unit SHIPPED to record stores. Whereas
    Soundscan reports units sold [to the consumer] at the point of purchase.
    So, you're talking about apples and oranges."
    ---8<---

    So - you make and ship fewer units at lower cost, you sell more of them
    and you deal with fewer returns. That probably means you're raking it
    in like never before.

    --
    Andrew
    http://www.evil.geek.nz/
     
    Andrew, May 15, 2004
    #6
  7. steve

    Barry Lennox Guest

    On Sat, 15 May 2004 23:16:58 +1200, steve
    <steve@mozilla-thunderbird0.6.org.nz> wrote:

    >
    >This study fits with my own practice. I'll download songs by an artisit
    >I'm curious about...and then if I like it< I'll go buy the album. If I
    >don't like it, I'll delete the files.......as a waste of space.
    >
    >Saves going to the record store to listen to them on the their headsets
    >- for free.
    >
    >http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18698
    >
    >Extract (partial):
    >
    >.......
    >
    >But a new study by Harvard Business School and University of North
    >Carolina is going against the popular beliefs surrounding filesharing.
    >After tracking 1.75 million downloads over a 17-week period in 2002 and
    >then comparing those observations to the sales of 680 popular albums,
    >the study found that filesharing has no negative effect on CD sales.
    >
    >In fact, for the most popular 25 percent of CDs, the study found that
    >downloading boosts sales. For every 150 songs downloaded, sales of that
    >album jumped one copy.
    >
    >"Initially, we were surprised by our results, given the consistent claim
    >that P2P hurts sales," says Koleman Strumpf, co-author with Felix
    >Oberholzer-Gee. "But on deeper reflection, not so much. Filesharing can
    >potentially boost sales through the user learning about new music, and
    >this could offset the substitution for buying, as is often claimed."



    Wow, this does not fit with strident claims made by the RIANZ and
    Glading at Sony. How can they be wrong?

    I see in the latest "Listener" they are still whining about the
    proposed law change that will let us media change from, say CD to
    tape,for in-car use. Their idiotic stance seems to be that it turn NZ
    into a pirate's paradise, overlooking that perhaps it already goes on.
     
    Barry Lennox, May 15, 2004
    #7
  8. steve

    brundlefly Guest

    "steve" <steve@mozilla-thunderbird0.6.org.nz> wrote in message
    news:40a6106c$...
    > Murray Sutherland wrote:
    >
    > > Fits in with my own theory that the real reason Music CD sales are going
    > > down is because most of the stuff ["modern music"] is crap. Not because
    > > people will not buy the CD if they have downloaded some of the songs.

    >
    > I have to agree with you there.
    >
    > I listen more than I used to...and buy less.
    >
    > There is less I want to buy.
    >
    > Hip-hop? I didn't like it when they called the same stuff "funk" in the
    > 1970s.


    So you think its all about what you like ?
    thats sad
     
    brundlefly, May 15, 2004
    #8
  9. steve

    brundlefly Guest

    "Murray Sutherland" <murray{removethis}> wrote in
    message news:...
    >
    > Fits in with my own theory that the real reason Music CD sales are going
    > down is because most of the stuff ["modern music"] is crap. Not because
    > people will not buy the CD if they have downloaded some of the songs.


    Old people always think that, my parents thought that, and their parents
    before them no doubt.
    People who thinkm like that won't buy CDs regardless of P2P or mp3s, so they
    are irrelevant to this argument.
    There is more competition for the home entertainment dollar, its just a
    proportional adjustment.
    The music industry dorks like RIANZ and Michael Glading from Sony are going
    the wrong way, discouraging people with an interest in music.
    They have to adapt to the way technology affects peoples lives.
    They should listen to much cleverer people like Steve Jobs
    http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story?id=5939600
    Of course. What's new is this amazingly efficient distribution system for
    stolen property called the Internet -- and no one's gonna shut down the
    Internet. And it only takes one stolen copy to be on the Internet. And the
    way we expressed it to them is: Pick one lock -- open every door. It only
    takes one person to pick a lock. Worst case: Somebody just takes the analog
    outputs of their CD player and rerecords it -- puts it on the Internet.
    You'll never stop that. So what you have to do is compete with it.
     
    brundlefly, May 16, 2004
    #9
  10. "Peter" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > steve wrote:
    > > "Initially, we were surprised by our results, given the consistent claim
    > > that P2P hurts sales," says Koleman Strumpf, co-author with Felix
    > > Oberholzer-Gee. "But on deeper reflection, not so much. Filesharing can
    > > potentially boost sales through the user learning about new music, and
    > > this could offset the substitution for buying, as is often claimed."

    >
    > Actually, I think those non-standard CDs are part of the problem. There

    has
    > been a couple of occasions recently where I wanted to buy a music CD, but
    > it was marked as non-standard format. I didn't buy it because apparently
    > these don't work in PCs, which is one of the places I want to listen to

    it.
    >
    > Maybe if music corporations offered products in formats that everyone can
    > use, they'd find more buyers.
    >
    >
    > Peter
    >


    Are they the ones that come up and say "You must install this (whatever)
    software in order to play this CD"? I just click cancel and they work just
    fine.

    Steve
     
    Stephen Williams, May 16, 2004
    #10
  11. On Sun, 16 May 2004 08:25:21 +1200, Andrew
    <> wrote:

    >steve, when stopped by the local constabulary on 15/05/2004 11:16 p.m.,
    >made the following statement:
    >>
    >> This study fits with my own practice. I'll download songs by an artisit
    >> I'm curious about...and then if I like it< I'll go buy the album. If I
    >> don't like it, I'll delete the files.......as a waste of space.
    >>
    >> Saves going to the record store to listen to them on the their headsets
    >> - for free.
    >>
    >> http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18698
    >>

    >[snip]
    >
    >You think that's interesting?
    >
    >http://www.kensei-news.com/bizdev/publish/factoids_us/article_23374.shtml
    >
    >---8<---
    >- For the first quarter of 2003 Soundscan registered 147,000,000 records
    >sold.
    >
    >- For the 1st quarter of 2004 Soundscan will report 160,000,000 records
    >sold.
    >
    >That's 13,000,000 more units, almost a 10% increase in sales since last
    >year. He also confessed that 1st quarter "album sales" (as opposed to
    >overall sales) had increased 9.4% since 2003.
    >
    >...
    >
    >"The RIAA reports a sale as a unit SHIPPED to record stores. Whereas
    >Soundscan reports units sold [to the consumer] at the point of purchase.
    >So, you're talking about apples and oranges."
    >---8<---
    >
    >So - you make and ship fewer units at lower cost, you sell more of them
    >and you deal with fewer returns. That probably means you're raking it
    >in like never before.


    Consolidation of retail outlets coupled with improved supply chain
    management systems have a downside (for some producers at least.)

    As an example. If an independant shop buys several boxes of CDs from
    the distributor and can only sell 75% of them then they have 25% that
    they have to thow out or return (if they can - and they are unlikely
    get all of their money back ). Either way they lose unless they allow
    for this in their prices. They have to have more copies than they can
    sell because customers are more likely to go direct to the
    competitors next time if they keep running out, so they have to
    overstock to some extent.

    On the other hand if the shop is part of a chain, the chain can buy
    less CDs in total and redistribute them internally to meet demand. The
    group can sell the CDs cheaper because there is less waste (and
    probably putting the independants out of business). The distributor
    sells less CDs even though the total retail sales might be the same.

    Steve
     
    Steve Sinclair, May 16, 2004
    #11
  12. steve

    Ali P Guest

    "Stephen Williams" <> wrote in message
    news:Apxpc.2338$...
    > Are they the ones that come up and say "You must install this (whatever)
    > software in order to play this CD"? I just click cancel and they work

    just
    > fine.
    >
    > Steve
    >

    Same here - I don't understand how this copy protection is meant to work.
    I've bought a couple of CDs lately with copy protection (The Thrills and
    NERD) and they played fine without installing the necessary software.
    Ripped them, encoded them and put them on an iPod the same way I would a
    non-copy protected CD. Makes me wonder what all the fuss is about.
     
    Ali P, May 16, 2004
    #12
  13. steve

    Craig Shore Guest

    On Sun, 16 May 2004 10:13:30 +1200, Barry Lennox <>
    wrote:

    >On Sat, 15 May 2004 23:16:58 +1200, steve
    ><steve@mozilla-thunderbird0.6.org.nz> wrote:
    >
    >>
    >>This study fits with my own practice. I'll download songs by an artisit
    >>I'm curious about...and then if I like it< I'll go buy the album. If I
    >>don't like it, I'll delete the files.......as a waste of space.
    >>
    >>Saves going to the record store to listen to them on the their headsets
    >>- for free.
    >>
    >>http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=18698
    >>
    >>Extract (partial):
    >>
    >>.......
    >>
    >>But a new study by Harvard Business School and University of North
    >>Carolina is going against the popular beliefs surrounding filesharing.
    >>After tracking 1.75 million downloads over a 17-week period in 2002 and
    >>then comparing those observations to the sales of 680 popular albums,
    >>the study found that filesharing has no negative effect on CD sales.
    >>
    >>In fact, for the most popular 25 percent of CDs, the study found that
    >>downloading boosts sales. For every 150 songs downloaded, sales of that
    >>album jumped one copy.
    >>
    >>"Initially, we were surprised by our results, given the consistent claim
    >>that P2P hurts sales," says Koleman Strumpf, co-author with Felix
    >>Oberholzer-Gee. "But on deeper reflection, not so much. Filesharing can
    >>potentially boost sales through the user learning about new music, and
    >>this could offset the substitution for buying, as is often claimed."

    >
    >
    >Wow, this does not fit with strident claims made by the RIANZ and
    >Glading at Sony. How can they be wrong?
    >
    >I see in the latest "Listener" they are still whining about the
    >proposed law change that will let us media change from, say CD to
    >tape,for in-car use. Their idiotic stance seems to be that it turn NZ
    >into a pirate's paradise, overlooking that perhaps it already goes on.


    They need to compete, by offering the product the public want. Rather than
    trying to prevent us from riping the CDs to mp3, they should be embrasing all
    the new technology and offering as much as they can on every CD, including mp3s
    and videos.
    People are going to copy CDs no matter what the labels do. They will never stop
    it. Their money would be better spent encouraging people to buy rather than try
    to stop them copying.

    And to those that say sales are down because of piss poor content, I say
    bullshit. There is a lot of great stuff being released.
    The real reason for sales being down is probably competition for the
    entertainment dollar. The people that typically purchased music in the past are
    probably spending more of their money on cars, clothes, alcohol, cellphones,
    cigarettes, movies.
     
    Craig Shore, May 16, 2004
    #13
  14. steve

    Divine Guest

    On Sun, 16 May 2004 19:08:08 +1200, Craig Shore wrote:

    > And to those that say sales are down because of piss poor content, I say
    > bullshit. There is a lot of great stuff being released. The real reason
    > for sales being down is probably competition for the entertainment dollar.
    > The people that typically purchased music in the past are probably
    > spending more of their money on cars, clothes, alcohol, cellphones,
    > cigarettes, movies.


    The key word in your statement is "probably".

    In my opinion, I think the majority of music presently being released is
    total shite.

    I would be buying more CDs if there was more music being released that I
    would actually enjoy listening to.

    Somebody reciting in a monotone over a drumbeat and the occasional sound
    sample is not what I call music.

    Music should have rhythm and movement, should have melody, should have
    a sensible harmonic structure.

    Atonal minimalism and hip hop are from the same school, IMHO.

    Interestingly, I find dukeboxes around town are increasingly being loaded
    with classic stuff, rather than latest "hits" - people really are voting
    with their money.


    Divine

    --
    The Queen's Mother: "Well I don't know what all you queens are doing,
    but this old Queen wants a drink."
     
    Divine, May 16, 2004
    #14
  15. steve

    Craig Shore Guest

    On Sun, 16 May 2004 19:40:49 +1200, Divine <> wrote:

    >On Sun, 16 May 2004 19:08:08 +1200, Craig Shore wrote:
    >
    >> And to those that say sales are down because of piss poor content, I say
    >> bullshit. There is a lot of great stuff being released. The real reason
    >> for sales being down is probably competition for the entertainment dollar.
    >> The people that typically purchased music in the past are probably
    >> spending more of their money on cars, clothes, alcohol, cellphones,
    >> cigarettes, movies.

    >
    >The key word in your statement is "probably".
    >
    >In my opinion, I think the majority of music presently being released is
    >total shite.
    >
    >I would be buying more CDs if there was more music being released that I
    >would actually enjoy listening to.


    Honestly? There's a lot of everything being released. Perhaps you're just not
    being exposed to it by NZ radio etc?

    For NZ content take a look at
    http://www.amplifier.co.nz/amp/home

    There's a few good sites that list everything coming out in the near future,
    i've lost the links to the better ones, but there is this
    http://www.dvdfever.co.uk/music.shtml#NRA

    The warez scene is releasing a couple of hundred new albums a day
    http://www.go.to/mp3hq/
    (It's a list only, I got the link from a news www site recently, dunno where to
    get the content)

    >Music should have rhythm and movement, should have melody, should have
    >a sensible harmonic structure.


    Why should it? Because that's what you like?

    >Atonal minimalism and hip hop are from the same school, IMHO.


    There's nothing wrong with Hip Hop (I wouldn't be sending anyone overseas on a
    $26k paid holiday to discover it's origins in NZ though :) )

    >Interestingly, I find dukeboxes around town are increasingly being loaded
    >with classic stuff, rather than latest "hits" - people really are voting
    >with their money.


    Possibly because it's more accepted across generations and music tastes.
    With the new music there's a lot of choice, and with a lot of it it's a love it
    or hate it thing.
     
    Craig Shore, May 16, 2004
    #15
  16. steve

    Divine Guest

    On Sun, 16 May 2004 21:09:21 +1200, Craig Shore wrote:

    > Possibly because it's more accepted across generations and music tastes.
    > With the new music there's a lot of choice, and with a lot of it it's a
    > love it or hate it thing.


    Then why are the top-40 stations so full of crap and nothing much else?


    Divine

    --
    The Queen's Mother: "Well I don't know what all you queens are doing,
    but this old Queen wants a drink."
     
    Divine, May 16, 2004
    #16
  17. steve

    Craig Shore Guest

    On Sun, 16 May 2004 21:54:00 +1200, Divine <>
    wrote:

    >On Sun, 16 May 2004 21:09:21 +1200, Craig Shore wrote:
    >
    >> Possibly because it's more accepted across generations and music tastes.
    >> With the new music there's a lot of choice, and with a lot of it it's a
    >> love it or hate it thing.

    >
    >Then why are the top-40 stations so full of crap and nothing much else?


    Because other people enjoy what you don't.
     
    Craig Shore, May 16, 2004
    #17
  18. steve

    steve Guest

    brundlefly wrote:
    > "steve" <steve@mozilla-thunderbird0.6.org.nz> wrote in message
    > news:40a6106c$...
    >
    >>Murray Sutherland wrote:
    >>
    >>
    >>>Fits in with my own theory that the real reason Music CD sales are going
    >>>down is because most of the stuff ["modern music"] is crap. Not because
    >>>people will not buy the CD if they have downloaded some of the songs.

    >>
    >>I have to agree with you there.
    >>
    >>I listen more than I used to...and buy less.
    >>
    >>There is less I want to buy.
    >>
    >>Hip-hop? I didn't like it when they called the same stuff "funk" in the
    >>1970s.

    >
    > So you think its all about what you like ?
    > thats sad


    What I buy is all about what I like.

    That's just the way it is.

    I wasn't talking about what you like. I was talking about what I like.

    I thought that was clear enough.
     
    steve, May 16, 2004
    #18
  19. steve

    Divine Guest

    On Sun, 16 May 2004 22:22:44 +1200, steve wrote:

    >> So you think its all about what you like ? thats sad

    >
    > What I buy is all about what I like.
    >
    > That's just the way it is.
    >
    > I wasn't talking about what you like. I was talking about what I like.
    >
    > I thought that was clear enough.


    It WAS clear enough - crystal clear!


    Divine

    --
    The Queen's Mother: "Well I don't know what all you queens are doing,
    but this old Queen wants a drink."
     
    Divine, May 16, 2004
    #19
  20. >
    > Then why are the top-40 stations so full of crap and nothing much else?
    >
    >
    > Divine
    >


    Well shame on the music industry for not revolving around your definition of
    good music.

    They cater to their target audience. The music industry moves forward, when
    you stop liking it then it's time to switch to the oldies stations.

    There is plenty of great new music, old stuff is good too.
     
    Stephen Williams, May 16, 2004
    #20
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