Need some advice and opinions

Discussion in 'MCSD' started by MJBrown, Nov 5, 2003.

  1. MJBrown

    MJBrown Guest

    My situation currently (and this is long...):



    I have been in Helpdesk/Customer Support for about 6 years now and at a IT helpdesk (supported employees of AOL/Netscape) for the last 2 of those 6 years. I have a total of about 10 years experience in PC's and OS's. I have some experience in networking/system admin and allot of experience in PC Support for both hardware and software. I can build a system (very easy, I think), troubleshoot any PC (and Mac) issue and able to resolve said issue.



    I was thinking of going for MCSE certs but I have noticed that allot of those with MCSE certs are paid less (compared to programming) or just unemployed or is this the same on both sides of the fence? (Oh, also not counting the bad economy). There also seems to be allot of "paper" MCSE's that have really ruined the credibility of the MCSE cert and ruined its appeal to me. I also don't like helpdesk work anymore, I don't like talking to people on the phone and I would much rather deal with a computer and its issues then another person's issues with the computer.



    Because of this I was thinking of pursuing a change of career into programming and was looking at the MCSD cert to have something to show that I know what im doing. The issue is, I have no current experience in programming like I do in hardware/networking.



    I was wondering if I would be able to get the books, study for the tests and get the MCSD cert with no experience in the software programming side of things?



    Would I know enough to get at least an entry-level job doing something to get more experience?



    I was also wondering if there is an in between that would be good for my situation that delves into networking/system admin and programming?




    If I go for the change into programming, the MCSD.net splits the languages up into Visual Basic .net and Visual C# .net.



    I was wondering which of the two would be better for me to start out with taking into account that I would be learning from scratch?



    Would Java or J# be a good starting point and if so, which one or both?



    Would I or should I need to know the older programming languages (like C/C++, Java, ect) or can I just jump into C# .net or VB .net?



    Thanks for any advice



    Mike
     
    MJBrown, Nov 5, 2003
    #1
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  2. MJBrown

    Guest Guest

    Here are some thoughts:

    You lamented the fact that there are a lot of "paper" MCSEs, yet you followed that up by asking "I was wondering if I would be able to get the books, study for the tests and get the MCSD cert with no experience in the software programming side of things? "


    Without experience, you would only (if you're lucky) land an entry level programming job. You may find that this is only one degree of seperation (in terms of both pay and respect) from a job working the help desk. Unless you have a passion for developing, you will get burned out really quick.



    With your current experience and interest in development, you may want to move into a position where you are involved more in testing and system design, instead of just fielding support calls from users.



    If you do decide to pick up a language, go with C# or VB.NET. They are no more difficult to learn than C++ or Java. Form design and event handling in VC++ is antediluvian compared to .NET.


    WKidd



    "MJBrown" <> wrote in message news:...
    My situation currently (and this is long...):



    I have been in Helpdesk/Customer Support for about 6 years now and at a IT helpdesk (supported employees of AOL/Netscape) for the last 2 of those 6 years. I have a total of about 10 years experience in PC's and OS's. I have some experience in networking/system admin and allot of experience in PC Support for both hardware and software. I can build a system (very easy, I think), troubleshoot any PC (and Mac) issue and able to resolve said issue.



    I was thinking of going for MCSE certs but I have noticed that allot of those with MCSE certs are paid less (compared to programming) or just unemployed or is this the same on both sides of the fence? (Oh, also not counting the bad economy). There also seems to be allot of "paper" MCSE's that have really ruined the credibility of the MCSE cert and ruined its appeal to me. I also don't like helpdesk work anymore, I don't like talking to people on the phone and I would much rather deal with a computer and its issues then another person's issues with the computer.



    Because of this I was thinking of pursuing a change of career into programming and was looking at the MCSD cert to have something to show that I know what im doing. The issue is, I have no current experience in programming like I do in hardware/networking.



    I was wondering if I would be able to get the books, study for the tests and get the MCSD cert with no experience in the software programming side of things?



    Would I know enough to get at least an entry-level job doing something to get more experience?



    I was also wondering if there is an in between that would be good for my situation that delves into networking/system admin and programming?




    If I go for the change into programming, the MCSD.net splits the languages up into Visual Basic .net and Visual C# .net.



    I was wondering which of the two would be better for me to start out with taking into account that I would be learning from scratch?



    Would Java or J# be a good starting point and if so, which one or both?



    Would I or should I need to know the older programming languages (like C/C++, Java, ect) or can I just jump into C# .net or VB .net?



    Thanks for any advice



    Mike
     
    Guest, Nov 5, 2003
    #2
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  3. MJBrown

    Jaime Guest

    There are also paper MCSD's. There are also a lot of MCSD's with experience who are out of work so you would be trying to get a job with virtually no programming experience and you don't even know if you like programming, most people don't. You need to find that out first. I would say go for your MCSE you at least have the experience and you could probably find something with that certification and experience you have that would suit you. Why start over from scratch when you don't have to? Try to build on your experience, maybe managing an IT department would suit you, maybe you will find you like networking.
    "MJBrown" <> wrote in message news:...
    My situation currently (and this is long...):



    I have been in Helpdesk/Customer Support for about 6 years now and at a IT helpdesk (supported employees of AOL/Netscape) for the last 2 of those 6 years. I have a total of about 10 years experience in PC's and OS's. I have some experience in networking/system admin and allot of experience in PC Support for both hardware and software. I can build a system (very easy, I think), troubleshoot any PC (and Mac) issue and able to resolve said issue.



    I was thinking of going for MCSE certs but I have noticed that allot of those with MCSE certs are paid less (compared to programming) or just unemployed or is this the same on both sides of the fence? (Oh, also not counting the bad economy). There also seems to be allot of "paper" MCSE's that have really ruined the credibility of the MCSE cert and ruined its appeal to me. I also don't like helpdesk work anymore, I don't like talking to people on the phone and I would much rather deal with a computer and its issues then another person's issues with the computer.



    Because of this I was thinking of pursuing a change of career into programming and was looking at the MCSD cert to have something to show that I know what im doing. The issue is, I have no current experience in programming like I do in hardware/networking.



    I was wondering if I would be able to get the books, study for the tests and get the MCSD cert with no experience in the software programming side of things?



    Would I know enough to get at least an entry-level job doing something to get more experience?



    I was also wondering if there is an in between that would be good for my situation that delves into networking/system admin and programming?




    If I go for the change into programming, the MCSD.net splits the languages up into Visual Basic .net and Visual C# .net.



    I was wondering which of the two would be better for me to start out with taking into account that I would be learning from scratch?



    Would Java or J# be a good starting point and if so, which one or both?



    Would I or should I need to know the older programming languages (like C/C++, Java, ect) or can I just jump into C# .net or VB .net?



    Thanks for any advice



    Mike
     
    Jaime, Nov 5, 2003
    #3
  4. MJBrown

    Jaime Guest

    I think vb is the easiest language to learn, just like dos basic was.
    <WKidd> wrote in message news:utAntV%...
    Here are some thoughts:




    If you do decide to pick up a language, go with C# or VB.NET. They are no more difficult to learn than C++ or Java. Form design and event handling in VC++ is antediluvian compared to .NET.


    WKidd



    "MJBrown" <> wrote in message news:...
    My situation currently (and this is long...):



    I have been in Helpdesk/Customer Support for about 6 years now and at a IT helpdesk (supported employees of AOL/Netscape) for the last 2 of those 6 years. I have a total of about 10 years experience in PC's and OS's. I have some experience in networking/system admin and allot of experience in PC Support for both hardware and software. I can build a system (very easy, I think), troubleshoot any PC (and Mac) issue and able to resolve said issue.



    I was thinking of going for MCSE certs but I have noticed that allot of those with MCSE certs are paid less (compared to programming) or just unemployed or is this the same on both sides of the fence? (Oh, also not counting the bad economy). There also seems to be allot of "paper" MCSE's that have really ruined the credibility of the MCSE cert and ruined its appeal to me. I also don't like helpdesk work anymore, I don't like talking to people on the phone and I would much rather deal with a computer and its issues then another person's issues with the computer.



    Because of this I was thinking of pursuing a change of career into programming and was looking at the MCSD cert to have something to show that I know what im doing. The issue is, I have no current experience in programming like I do in hardware/networking.



    I was wondering if I would be able to get the books, study for the tests and get the MCSD cert with no experience in the software programming side of things?



    Would I know enough to get at least an entry-level job doing something to get more experience?



    I was also wondering if there is an in between that would be good for my situation that delves into networking/system admin and programming?




    If I go for the change into programming, the MCSD.net splits the languages up into Visual Basic .net and Visual C# .net.



    I was wondering which of the two would be better for me to start out with taking into account that I would be learning from scratch?



    Would Java or J# be a good starting point and if so, which one or both?



    Would I or should I need to know the older programming languages (like C/C++, Java, ect) or can I just jump into C# .net or VB .net?



    Thanks for any advice



    Mike
     
    Jaime, Nov 5, 2003
    #4
  5. I agree with most of the other posts I think - if you have a cert but little or no experience related to the cert, you probably won't get a job. I think the MCSE path might be a more natural progression from what you're doing now. I don't expect you'll last long with systems admin or programming unless you enjoy them, even if they do pay more. If you don't enjoy this stuff, it's pretty tedious (actually it can be pretty tedious even when you do enjoy it most of the time). Since you're now with a company that does tech stuff, maybe you could ask to be given small internal programming or sys admin stuff, in addition to training for a cert. That way you can gain a little more experience in the specific field.

    In a company I used to work for, we had a support desk person who was interested in programming. He kept bugging the bosses to let him try some programming, and after a while they let him write some simple internal software. Over time he was brought in to help with the company's main product part time, in combination with his support job. Since you've already got an 'in' with a company this might be the easiest way to get some experience. I also know that companies like to have support people that really know their technical stuff, so even if you stay with the support stuff with your company, your pay could increase as you broaden some of your skills.



    "MJBrown" <> wrote in message news:...
    My situation currently (and this is long...):



    I have been in Helpdesk/Customer Support for about 6 years now and at a IT helpdesk (supported employees of AOL/Netscape) for the last 2 of those 6 years. I have a total of about 10 years experience in PC's and OS's. I have some experience in networking/system admin and allot of experience in PC Support for both hardware and software. I can build a system (very easy, I think), troubleshoot any PC (and Mac) issue and able to resolve said issue.



    I was thinking of going for MCSE certs but I have noticed that allot of those with MCSE certs are paid less (compared to programming) or just unemployed or is this the same on both sides of the fence? (Oh, also not counting the bad economy). There also seems to be allot of "paper" MCSE's that have really ruined the credibility of the MCSE cert and ruined its appeal to me. I also don't like helpdesk work anymore, I don't like talking to people on the phone and I would much rather deal with a computer and its issues then another person's issues with the computer.



    Because of this I was thinking of pursuing a change of career into programming and was looking at the MCSD cert to have something to show that I know what im doing. The issue is, I have no current experience in programming like I do in hardware/networking.



    I was wondering if I would be able to get the books, study for the tests and get the MCSD cert with no experience in the software programming side of things?



    Would I know enough to get at least an entry-level job doing something to get more experience?



    I was also wondering if there is an in between that would be good for my situation that delves into networking/system admin and programming?




    If I go for the change into programming, the MCSD.net splits the languages up into Visual Basic .net and Visual C# .net.



    I was wondering which of the two would be better for me to start out with taking into account that I would be learning from scratch?



    Would Java or J# be a good starting point and if so, which one or both?



    Would I or should I need to know the older programming languages (like C/C++, Java, ect) or can I just jump into C# .net or VB .net?



    Thanks for any advice



    Mike
     
    Chris Pettingill, Nov 6, 2003
    #5
  6. I also meant to mention... if you do decide to pursue an MCSD, there's a few documents on MS'es website explaining the differences of VB and C#. I think in general, VB is more aimed at building UI's while C# is more for middle tier, and back end stuff. However, in theory you should be able to use either language for either job I think. VB is supposed to be easier for beginners. I think new stuff (like generics) are supposed to be available in C# first. While I'm going to focus on C#, I'm expecting that I'll need to be pretty familiar with VB too. But I also figure that if I know C#, VB will come easy.



    "Chris Pettingill" <> wrote in message news:...
    I agree with most of the other posts I think - if you have a cert but little or no experience related to the cert, you probably won't get a job. I think the MCSE path might be a more natural progression from what you're doing now. I don't expect you'll last long with systems admin or programming unless you enjoy them, even if they do pay more. If you don't enjoy this stuff, it's pretty tedious (actually it can be pretty tedious even when you do enjoy it most of the time). Since you're now with a company that does tech stuff, maybe you could ask to be given small internal programming or sys admin stuff, in addition to training for a cert. That way you can gain a little more experience in the specific field.

    In a company I used to work for, we had a support desk person who was interested in programming. He kept bugging the bosses to let him try some programming, and after a while they let him write some simple internal software. Over time he was brought in to help with the company's main product part time, in combination with his support job. Since you've already got an 'in' with a company this might be the easiest way to get some experience. I also know that companies like to have support people that really know their technical stuff, so even if you stay with the support stuff with your company, your pay could increase as you broaden some of your skills.



    "MJBrown" <> wrote in message news:...
    My situation currently (and this is long...):



    I have been in Helpdesk/Customer Support for about 6 years now and at a IT helpdesk (supported employees of AOL/Netscape) for the last 2 of those 6 years. I have a total of about 10 years experience in PC's and OS's. I have some experience in networking/system admin and allot of experience in PC Support for both hardware and software. I can build a system (very easy, I think), troubleshoot any PC (and Mac) issue and able to resolve said issue.



    I was thinking of going for MCSE certs but I have noticed that allot of those with MCSE certs are paid less (compared to programming) or just unemployed or is this the same on both sides of the fence? (Oh, also not counting the bad economy). There also seems to be allot of "paper" MCSE's that have really ruined the credibility of the MCSE cert and ruined its appeal to me. I also don't like helpdesk work anymore, I don't like talking to people on the phone and I would much rather deal with a computer and its issues then another person's issues with the computer.



    Because of this I was thinking of pursuing a change of career into programming and was looking at the MCSD cert to have something to show that I know what im doing. The issue is, I have no current experience in programming like I do in hardware/networking.



    I was wondering if I would be able to get the books, study for the tests and get the MCSD cert with no experience in the software programming side of things?



    Would I know enough to get at least an entry-level job doing something to get more experience?



    I was also wondering if there is an in between that would be good for my situation that delves into networking/system admin and programming?




    If I go for the change into programming, the MCSD.net splits the languages up into Visual Basic .net and Visual C# .net.



    I was wondering which of the two would be better for me to start out with taking into account that I would be learning from scratch?



    Would Java or J# be a good starting point and if so, which one or both?



    Would I or should I need to know the older programming languages (like C/C++, Java, ect) or can I just jump into C# .net or VB .net?



    Thanks for any advice



    Mike
     
    Chris Pettingill, Nov 6, 2003
    #6
  7. Generics will be introduced in VB.NET and C# in Whidbey. For more info, check the .NET Rocks! Sept 8 show featuring members of the VB.NET team.

    Either language will accomplish the same goal. One is not better than the other; it's all the same IL, whatever you're preference is. C based syntax or Basic syntax. It's all about the FCL.

    --
    Leigh Kendall MCSD, MCDBA


    "Chris Pettingill" <> wrote in message news:...
    I also meant to mention... if you do decide to pursue an MCSD, there's a few documents on MS'es website explaining the differences of VB and C#. I think in general, VB is more aimed at building UI's while C# is more for middle tier, and back end stuff. However, in theory you should be able to use either language for either job I think. VB is supposed to be easier for beginners. I think new stuff (like generics) are supposed to be available in C# first. While I'm going to focus on C#, I'm expecting that I'll need to be pretty familiar with VB too. But I also figure that if I know C#, VB will come easy.



    "Chris Pettingill" <> wrote in message news:...
    I agree with most of the other posts I think - if you have a cert but little or no experience related to the cert, you probably won't get a job. I think the MCSE path might be a more natural progression from what you're doing now. I don't expect you'll last long with systems admin or programming unless you enjoy them, even if they do pay more. If you don't enjoy this stuff, it's pretty tedious (actually it can be pretty tedious even when you do enjoy it most of the time). Since you're now with a company that does tech stuff, maybe you could ask to be given small internal programming or sys admin stuff, in addition to training for a cert. That way you can gain a little more experience in the specific field.

    In a company I used to work for, we had a support desk person who was interested in programming. He kept bugging the bosses to let him try some programming, and after a while they let him write some simple internal software. Over time he was brought in to help with the company's main product part time, in combination with his support job. Since you've already got an 'in' with a company this might be the easiest way to get some experience. I also know that companies like to have support people that really know their technical stuff, so even if you stay with the support stuff with your company, your pay could increase as you broaden some of your skills.



    "MJBrown" <> wrote in message news:...
    My situation currently (and this is long...):



    I have been in Helpdesk/Customer Support for about 6 years now and at a IT helpdesk (supported employees of AOL/Netscape) for the last 2 of those 6 years. I have a total of about 10 years experience in PC's and OS's. I have some experience in networking/system admin and allot of experience in PC Support for both hardware and software. I can build a system (very easy, I think), troubleshoot any PC (and Mac) issue and able to resolve said issue.



    I was thinking of going for MCSE certs but I have noticed that allot of those with MCSE certs are paid less (compared to programming) or just unemployed or is this the same on both sides of the fence? (Oh, also not counting the bad economy). There also seems to be allot of "paper" MCSE's that have really ruined the credibility of the MCSE cert and ruined its appeal to me. I also don't like helpdesk work anymore, I don't like talking to people on the phone and I would much rather deal with a computer and its issues then another person's issues with the computer.



    Because of this I was thinking of pursuing a change of career into programming and was looking at the MCSD cert to have something to show that I know what im doing. The issue is, I have no current experience in programming like I do in hardware/networking.



    I was wondering if I would be able to get the books, study for the tests and get the MCSD cert with no experience in the software programming side of things?



    Would I know enough to get at least an entry-level job doing something to get more experience?



    I was also wondering if there is an in between that would be good for my situation that delves into networking/system admin and programming?




    If I go for the change into programming, the MCSD.net splits the languages up into Visual Basic .net and Visual C# .net.



    I was wondering which of the two would be better for me to start out with taking into account that I would be learning from scratch?



    Would Java or J# be a good starting point and if so, which one or both?



    Would I or should I need to know the older programming languages (like C/C++, Java, ect) or can I just jump into C# .net or VB .net?



    Thanks for any advice



    Mike
     
    Leigh Kendall, Nov 7, 2003
    #7
  8. Follow you true desires. If you like programming follow that. If you like network admin follow that. Study hard, get your certification, get some hands on experience and try to pick up some opportunities to get your feet wet in your current position if possible. Once you have "some" experience, you'll find it much easier to move on. Don't pursue a career change for the wrong motivations, like money alone. You must have you heart in it. If you do, things will fall into place sooner or later. Don't let the dreary job market reports get you down; things always go in cycles and things will eventually turn around, they always do!

    Good luck!

    --
    Leigh Kendall MCSD, MCDBA
    "MJBrown" <> wrote in message news:...
    My situation currently (and this is long...):



    I have been in Helpdesk/Customer Support for about 6 years now and at a IT helpdesk (supported employees of AOL/Netscape) for the last 2 of those 6 years. I have a total of about 10 years experience in PC's and OS's. I have some experience in networking/system admin and allot of experience in PC Support for both hardware and software. I can build a system (very easy, I think), troubleshoot any PC (and Mac) issue and able to resolve said issue.



    I was thinking of going for MCSE certs but I have noticed that allot of those with MCSE certs are paid less (compared to programming) or just unemployed or is this the same on both sides of the fence? (Oh, also not counting the bad economy). There also seems to be allot of "paper" MCSE's that have really ruined the credibility of the MCSE cert and ruined its appeal to me. I also don't like helpdesk work anymore, I don't like talking to people on the phone and I would much rather deal with a computer and its issues then another person's issues with the computer.



    Because of this I was thinking of pursuing a change of career into programming and was looking at the MCSD cert to have something to show that I know what im doing. The issue is, I have no current experience in programming like I do in hardware/networking.



    I was wondering if I would be able to get the books, study for the tests and get the MCSD cert with no experience in the software programming side of things?



    Would I know enough to get at least an entry-level job doing something to get more experience?



    I was also wondering if there is an in between that would be good for my situation that delves into networking/system admin and programming?




    If I go for the change into programming, the MCSD.net splits the languages up into Visual Basic .net and Visual C# .net.



    I was wondering which of the two would be better for me to start out with taking into account that I would be learning from scratch?



    Would Java or J# be a good starting point and if so, which one or both?



    Would I or should I need to know the older programming languages (like C/C++, Java, ect) or can I just jump into C# .net or VB .net?



    Thanks for any advice



    Mike
     
    Leigh Kendall, Nov 7, 2003
    #8
  9. Chris Pettingill wrote:

    > I also meant to mention... if you do decide to pursue an MCSD, there's a
    > few documents on MS'es website explaining the differences of VB and C#.
    > I think in general, VB is more aimed at building UI's while C# is more
    > for middle tier, and back end stuff. However, in theory you should be
    > able to use either language for either job I think. VB is supposed to
    > be easier for beginners. I think new stuff (like generics) are supposed
    > to be available in C# first. While I'm going to focus on C#, I'm
    > expecting that I'll need to be pretty familiar with VB too. But I also
    > figure that if I know C#, VB will come easy.


    Neither language is designed for either tier. They're equivalent.

    If you learn C# first, VB.NET might be tough because you'll have to
    learn to think like a moron to program in VB.NET.
     
    General Protection Fault, Nov 7, 2003
    #9
  10. They may not have been 'designed' for a particular tier, but I have read
    articles suggesting that VB is a little nicer for GUI stuff, and C# is nicer
    for the backend plumbing (although either should be able to do either task).
    Of course, I can't find any of those articles now to prove my point. ;)

    However if you look at
    http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/d...us/vsintro7/html/vxconATourOfVisualStudio.asp,
    it does seem to _imply_ some more important differences between VB.NET
    ("Applications made with Visual Basic ... take advantage of the .NET
    Framework") and C# ("Applications written in Visual C# ... take full
    advantage of the .NET Framework"). Notice the addition of the word "full"
    in the C# description. Maybe this is just a innocent difference in the
    wording, but there's other things that seem to imply that C# is a little
    more powerful in some ways. Since C# is closer to C/C++ I'm hoping it'll
    make it easier to work with low-level Win32 API's if/when I need to.



    "General Protection Fault" <> wrote
    in message news:...
    > Chris Pettingill wrote:
    >
    > > I also meant to mention... if you do decide to pursue an MCSD, there's a
    > > few documents on MS'es website explaining the differences of VB and C#.
    > > I think in general, VB is more aimed at building UI's while C# is more
    > > for middle tier, and back end stuff. However, in theory you should be
    > > able to use either language for either job I think. VB is supposed to
    > > be easier for beginners. I think new stuff (like generics) are supposed
    > > to be available in C# first. While I'm going to focus on C#, I'm
    > > expecting that I'll need to be pretty familiar with VB too. But I also
    > > figure that if I know C#, VB will come easy.

    >
    > Neither language is designed for either tier. They're equivalent.
    >
    > If you learn C# first, VB.NET might be tough because you'll have to
    > learn to think like a moron to program in VB.NET.
    >
     
    Chris Pettingill, Nov 7, 2003
    #10
  11. No major differences in power between C# or VB.NET. They both compile to the
    same IL and use the same base classes. Matter of fact, what differences
    there were in the initial versions, is diminishing as time goes on with the
    one exception that C# can use pointers and allows you to write unsafe code.
    Other than that no difference.

    Leigh

    "Chris Pettingill" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > They may not have been 'designed' for a particular tier, but I have read
    > articles suggesting that VB is a little nicer for GUI stuff, and C# is

    nicer
    > for the backend plumbing (although either should be able to do either

    task).
    > Of course, I can't find any of those articles now to prove my point. ;)
    >
    > However if you look at
    >

    http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/d...us/vsintro7/html/vxconATourOfVisualStudio.asp,
    > it does seem to _imply_ some more important differences between VB.NET
    > ("Applications made with Visual Basic ... take advantage of the .NET
    > Framework") and C# ("Applications written in Visual C# ... take full
    > advantage of the .NET Framework"). Notice the addition of the word "full"
    > in the C# description. Maybe this is just a innocent difference in the
    > wording, but there's other things that seem to imply that C# is a little
    > more powerful in some ways. Since C# is closer to C/C++ I'm hoping it'll
    > make it easier to work with low-level Win32 API's if/when I need to.
    >
    >
    >
    > "General Protection Fault" <> wrote
    > in message news:...
    > > Chris Pettingill wrote:
    > >
    > > > I also meant to mention... if you do decide to pursue an MCSD, there's

    a
    > > > few documents on MS'es website explaining the differences of VB and

    C#.
    > > > I think in general, VB is more aimed at building UI's while C# is more
    > > > for middle tier, and back end stuff. However, in theory you should be
    > > > able to use either language for either job I think. VB is supposed to
    > > > be easier for beginners. I think new stuff (like generics) are

    supposed
    > > > to be available in C# first. While I'm going to focus on C#, I'm
    > > > expecting that I'll need to be pretty familiar with VB too. But I

    also
    > > > figure that if I know C#, VB will come easy.

    > >
    > > Neither language is designed for either tier. They're equivalent.
    > >
    > > If you learn C# first, VB.NET might be tough because you'll have to
    > > learn to think like a moron to program in VB.NET.
    > >

    >
    >
     
    Leigh Kendall, Nov 8, 2003
    #11
  12. > If you learn C# first, VB.NET might be tough because you'll have to
    > learn to think like a moron to program in VB.NET.



    Are you an insecure C bigot or an ex-VB'er with an inferiority complex?

    "General Protection Fault" <> wrote
    in message news:...
    > Chris Pettingill wrote:
    >
    > > I also meant to mention... if you do decide to pursue an MCSD, there's a
    > > few documents on MS'es website explaining the differences of VB and C#.
    > > I think in general, VB is more aimed at building UI's while C# is more
    > > for middle tier, and back end stuff. However, in theory you should be
    > > able to use either language for either job I think. VB is supposed to
    > > be easier for beginners. I think new stuff (like generics) are supposed
    > > to be available in C# first. While I'm going to focus on C#, I'm
    > > expecting that I'll need to be pretty familiar with VB too. But I also
    > > figure that if I know C#, VB will come easy.

    >
    > Neither language is designed for either tier. They're equivalent.
    >
    > If you learn C# first, VB.NET might be tough because you'll have to
    > learn to think like a moron to program in VB.NET.
    >
     
    Leigh Kendall, Nov 8, 2003
    #12
  13. MJBrown

    Simon Smith Guest

    On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 15:57:41 -0500 in article
    <> in
    microsoft.public.cert.exam.mcsd , "Chris Pettingill"
    <> wrote:

    >They may not have been 'designed' for a particular tier, but I have read
    >articles suggesting that VB is a little nicer for GUI stuff, and C# is nicer
    >for the backend plumbing (although either should be able to do either task).
    >Of course, I can't find any of those articles now to prove my point. ;)
    >
    >However if you look at
    >http://msdn.microsoft.com/library/d...us/vsintro7/html/vxconATourOfVisualStudio.asp,
    >it does seem to _imply_ some more important differences between VB.NET
    >("Applications made with Visual Basic ... take advantage of the .NET
    >Framework") and C# ("Applications written in Visual C# ... take full
    >advantage of the .NET Framework"). Notice the addition of the word "full"
    >in the C# description. Maybe this is just a innocent difference in the
    >wording, but there's other things that seem to imply that C# is a little
    >more powerful in some ways. Since C# is closer to C/C++ I'm hoping it'll
    >make it easier to work with low-level Win32 API's if/when I need to.
    >
    >


    In fact VB uses slightly more of the CLR in one way - I forget the
    syntax (I use C# :), but it supports a more complex catch statement
    than C# utilising an interface the CLR exposes which C# doesn't use.

    On the other hand, C# does allow unsafe code which VB doesn't.

    As far as Interop with Win32 and COM go, they are both exactly the
    same as far as I know (VB may be slightly 'better' with optional
    parameters though). I'd love to hear of any differences but I don't
    think that there are any.

    I can't think of any reason why you'd use one over the other for GUI
    of backend systems except habit.


    --
    Simon
    simon dot smith at snowvalley dot com
    "Insomnia is a small price to pay for the stuff you read on UseNet"
     
    Simon Smith, Nov 8, 2003
    #13
  14. MJBrown

    Kline Sphere Guest

    On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 19:21:42 -0500, "Leigh Kendall"
    <> wrote:

    >Are you an insecure C bigot or an ex-VB'er with an inferiority complex?


    lol! Although gpf has a point!
     
    Kline Sphere, Nov 8, 2003
    #14
  15. I know, I know... I must admit, I have met many many DUMB A*S VB
    programmers. Only because it's so much easier to pick up than C++ I suppose.

    I suppose if C++ was easier, more of the dumb ones using VB might have
    jumped shipped earlier! <g>.

    What's so amusing now, is that there's really no worthy difference between
    C# and VB.NET in the world of .NET, but the fanatics continue to rage on!

    Leigh

    "Kline Sphere" <-> wrote in message
    news:...
    > On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 19:21:42 -0500, "Leigh Kendall"
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >Are you an insecure C bigot or an ex-VB'er with an inferiority complex?

    >
    > lol! Although gpf has a point!
     
    Leigh Kendall, Nov 9, 2003
    #15
  16. MJBrown

    Kline Sphere Guest

    >I must admit, I have met many many DUMB A*S VB
    >programmers.


    There are plenty of 'DUMB A*S VB programmers' who are not vb'ers!
     
    Kline Sphere, Nov 9, 2003
    #16
  17. I've started learning the C# syntax, and I'm almost wishing I had chosen
    VB.NET instead now. While I can see the C influence in C#, it's amazing how
    close to Delphi, C# is. Since I've used Delphi for a long time, the jump to
    C# looks like it's going to be dead easy. Since VB.NET has changed so much
    since VB (i.e. it's actually OO now), I may have done better to learn
    VB.NET. Then I'd be able to use VB.NET because I'd studied it, and C#
    because it's so close to Delphi.

    In reading through the book I have ("Programming C#" published by O'Reilly),
    it does mention some things you can only do in C#, and other things you can
    only do in VB.NET, but there's nothing significant so far. And, from what
    I've learned reading responses to my posts in this thread, the stuff is
    changing so fast that the differences mentioned in the book may no longer
    actually hold true.


    "Leigh Kendall" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I know, I know... I must admit, I have met many many DUMB A*S VB
    > programmers. Only because it's so much easier to pick up than C++ I

    suppose.
    >
    > I suppose if C++ was easier, more of the dumb ones using VB might have
    > jumped shipped earlier! <g>.
    >
    > What's so amusing now, is that there's really no worthy difference between
    > C# and VB.NET in the world of .NET, but the fanatics continue to rage on!
    >
    > Leigh
    >
    > "Kline Sphere" <-> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 19:21:42 -0500, "Leigh Kendall"
    > > <> wrote:
    > >
    > > >Are you an insecure C bigot or an ex-VB'er with an inferiority complex?

    > >
    > > lol! Although gpf has a point!

    >
     
    Chris Pettingill, Nov 9, 2003
    #17
  18. Not sure what you mean?...

    "Kline Sphere" <-> wrote in message
    news:...
    > >I must admit, I have met many many DUMB A*S VB
    > >programmers.

    >
    > There are plenty of 'DUMB A*S VB programmers' who are not vb'ers!
     
    Leigh Kendall, Nov 10, 2003
    #18
  19. You are right on.

    In reality, the thing that's important, is understanding the framework and
    all the base class libraries. Pick a language you like and go from there.
    Once you know the framework, it's for the most part a simple translation
    between languages. Yes, some things are easier to do in one than the other,
    but not earth shattering.

    As a "professional" (not used loosely), you MUST be able to work with both,
    and at a minimum, be able to read both.

    Leigh

    "Chris Pettingill" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > I've started learning the C# syntax, and I'm almost wishing I had chosen
    > VB.NET instead now. While I can see the C influence in C#, it's amazing

    how
    > close to Delphi, C# is. Since I've used Delphi for a long time, the jump

    to
    > C# looks like it's going to be dead easy. Since VB.NET has changed so

    much
    > since VB (i.e. it's actually OO now), I may have done better to learn
    > VB.NET. Then I'd be able to use VB.NET because I'd studied it, and C#
    > because it's so close to Delphi.
    >
    > In reading through the book I have ("Programming C#" published by

    O'Reilly),
    > it does mention some things you can only do in C#, and other things you

    can
    > only do in VB.NET, but there's nothing significant so far. And, from what
    > I've learned reading responses to my posts in this thread, the stuff is
    > changing so fast that the differences mentioned in the book may no longer
    > actually hold true.
    >
    >
    > "Leigh Kendall" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > I know, I know... I must admit, I have met many many DUMB A*S VB
    > > programmers. Only because it's so much easier to pick up than C++ I

    > suppose.
    > >
    > > I suppose if C++ was easier, more of the dumb ones using VB might have
    > > jumped shipped earlier! <g>.
    > >
    > > What's so amusing now, is that there's really no worthy difference

    between
    > > C# and VB.NET in the world of .NET, but the fanatics continue to rage

    on!
    > >
    > > Leigh
    > >
    > > "Kline Sphere" <-> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > > > On Fri, 7 Nov 2003 19:21:42 -0500, "Leigh Kendall"
    > > > <> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > >Are you an insecure C bigot or an ex-VB'er with an inferiority

    complex?
    > > >
    > > > lol! Although gpf has a point!

    > >

    >
    >
     
    Leigh Kendall, Nov 10, 2003
    #19
  20. MJBrown

    Kline Sphere Guest

    >Not sure what you mean?...

    Exactly what it says. Being a 'DUMB A*S' programmer is not tied down
    to one who only knows vb, i.e. it;s not language specific!
     
    Kline Sphere, Nov 10, 2003
    #20
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