NDA Wording

Discussion in 'MCDST' started by Need help on MCP certification test, Feb 8, 2007.

  1. Good day;
    I have visited the NDA and it appears that the wording in the NDA is seeking
    to prohibit the circulation of the exam questions, and/or the content of the
    exam questions. The NDA language is as follows: " All Microsoft certification
    exams, including the content and wording of exam questions, constitute
    confidential Microsoft information protected by trade secret law. Anyone
    obtaining access to MCP exams is obligated to maintain the confidentiality of
    this information."

    Microsoft could attempt, and then proceed to fail in its attempt, to
    prohibit one from speaking about the exam in general. That is to say, not
    reveal the content of the questions but to speak about the exam overall. This
    is exactly what is done on the discussion site, the posts discussion the exam
    in general without revealing the content of any specific questions.

    For one to state that acknowledging the time allotted to sit for the exam,
    or the type of grading system that is used to grade the exam is the same as
    revealing the content of the questions is certainly a stretch of the
    imagination.

    Microsoft may have a lot of people scared, but the last I knew the U.S.
    Constitution continues to allow free speech, whether or not a corporation
    attempts to infringe upon this right with a NDA or some other agreement. The
    Microsoft attorneys are fully aware that an NDA cannot restrict free speech
    "about a subject," as long as the speech does not disclose the content of the
    questions.

    Please be aware that throughout history there have been Totalitarian Regimes
    that have attempted to silence the proletariat. Thought, Speech and the human
    Will must remain free, otherwise it is death. Bill
     
    Need help on MCP certification test, Feb 8, 2007
    #1
    1. Advertising

  2. Let me put it this way then... The exam can be given in 2 formats:
    Format 1, set number of questions. Format 2, adaptive. You do not know
    what exam will be given until you sit the exam. The grading system for
    the exams has never been publicized by Microsoft. There has been tons of
    speculation, but nothing concrete. If you have spent any time in this
    newsgroup, you are aware that published objectives are covered here, not
    specific details of the exams content. Published objectives for any exam
    can be found on http://www.microsoft.com/learning or by visiting by
    website below. The published objectives, or preparation guides, have a
    list of "Skills Being Measured" for each and every exam. This is a
    guideline of what the test can entail. That is what we discuss here.

    Again, discussions of specific details of the exam or its content
    compromises the integrity of the certification and those who hold it.

    --
    Michael D. Alligood
    MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+,
    Network+, i-Net+, CIW Assoc.,
    CIW Certified Instructor

    http://yetanotherblog.typepad.com/theclassroom



    "Need help on MCP certification test"
    <> wrote in
    message news::

    > Good day;
    > I have visited the NDA and it appears that the wording in the NDA is seeking
    > to prohibit the circulation of the exam questions, and/or the content of the
    > exam questions. The NDA language is as follows: " All Microsoft certification
    > exams, including the content and wording of exam questions, constitute
    > confidential Microsoft information protected by trade secret law. Anyone
    > obtaining access to MCP exams is obligated to maintain the confidentiality of
    > this information."
    >
    > Microsoft could attempt, and then proceed to fail in its attempt, to
    > prohibit one from speaking about the exam in general. That is to say, not
    > reveal the content of the questions but to speak about the exam overall. This
    > is exactly what is done on the discussion site, the posts discussion the exam
    > in general without revealing the content of any specific questions.
    >
    > For one to state that acknowledging the time allotted to sit for the exam,
    > or the type of grading system that is used to grade the exam is the same as
    > revealing the content of the questions is certainly a stretch of the
    > imagination.
    >
    > Microsoft may have a lot of people scared, but the last I knew the U.S.
    > Constitution continues to allow free speech, whether or not a corporation
    > attempts to infringe upon this right with a NDA or some other agreement. The
    > Microsoft attorneys are fully aware that an NDA cannot restrict free speech
    > "about a subject," as long as the speech does not disclose the content of the
    > questions.
    >
    > Please be aware that throughout history there have been Totalitarian Regimes
    > that have attempted to silence the proletariat. Thought, Speech and the human
    > Will must remain free, otherwise it is death. Bill
     
    Michael D. Alligood, Feb 8, 2007
    #2
    1. Advertising

  3. Need help on MCP certification test

    Richard Guest

    Michael
    You certainly have a gift for, and patience for, explaining the minutia of
    the NDA.
    My hat is off to you.

    A student

    Richard

    "Michael D. Alligood" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Let me put it this way then... The exam can be given in 2 formats: Format
    > 1, set number of questions. Format 2, adaptive. You do not know what exam
    > will be given until you sit the exam. The grading system for the exams has
    > never been publicized by Microsoft. There has been tons of speculation,
    > but nothing concrete. If you have spent any time in this newsgroup, you
    > are aware that published objectives are covered here, not specific details
    > of the exams content. Published objectives for any exam can be found on
    > http://www.microsoft.com/learning or by visiting by website below. The
    > published objectives, or preparation guides, have a list of "Skills Being
    > Measured" for each and every exam. This is a guideline of what the test
    > can entail. That is what we discuss here.
    >
    > Again, discussions of specific details of the exam or its content
    > compromises the integrity of the certification and those who hold it.
    >
    > --
    > Michael D. Alligood
    > MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+,
    > Network+, i-Net+, CIW Assoc.,
    > CIW Certified Instructor
    >
    > http://yetanotherblog.typepad.com/theclassroom
    >
    >
    >
    > "Need help on MCP certification test"
    > <> wrote in
    > message news::
    >
    >> Good day;
    >> I have visited the NDA and it appears that the wording in the NDA is
    >> seeking
    >> to prohibit the circulation of the exam questions, and/or the content of
    >> the
    >> exam questions. The NDA language is as follows: " All Microsoft
    >> certification
    >> exams, including the content and wording of exam questions, constitute
    >> confidential Microsoft information protected by trade secret law. Anyone
    >> obtaining access to MCP exams is obligated to maintain the
    >> confidentiality of
    >> this information."
    >>
    >> Microsoft could attempt, and then proceed to fail in its attempt, to
    >> prohibit one from speaking about the exam in general. That is to say, not
    >> reveal the content of the questions but to speak about the exam overall.
    >> This
    >> is exactly what is done on the discussion site, the posts discussion the
    >> exam
    >> in general without revealing the content of any specific questions.
    >>
    >> For one to state that acknowledging the time allotted to sit for the
    >> exam,
    >> or the type of grading system that is used to grade the exam is the same
    >> as
    >> revealing the content of the questions is certainly a stretch of the
    >> imagination.
    >>
    >> Microsoft may have a lot of people scared, but the last I knew the U.S.
    >> Constitution continues to allow free speech, whether or not a corporation
    >> attempts to infringe upon this right with a NDA or some other agreement.
    >> The
    >> Microsoft attorneys are fully aware that an NDA cannot restrict free
    >> speech
    >> "about a subject," as long as the speech does not disclose the content of
    >> the
    >> questions.
    >>
    >> Please be aware that throughout history there have been Totalitarian
    >> Regimes
    >> that have attempted to silence the proletariat. Thought, Speech and the
    >> human
    >> Will must remain free, otherwise it is death. Bill

    >
     
    Richard, Feb 8, 2007
    #3
  4. Need help on MCP certification test

    John R Guest

    "Need help on MCP certification test"
    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Good day;
    > I have visited the NDA and it appears that the wording in the NDA is
    > seeking
    > to prohibit the circulation of the exam questions, and/or the content of
    > the
    > exam questions. The NDA language is as follows: " All Microsoft
    > certification
    > exams, including the content and wording of exam questions, constitute
    > confidential Microsoft information protected by trade secret law. Anyone
    > obtaining access to MCP exams is obligated to maintain the confidentiality
    > of
    > this information."
    >
    > Microsoft could attempt, and then proceed to fail in its attempt, to
    > prohibit one from speaking about the exam in general. That is to say, not
    > reveal the content of the questions but to speak about the exam overall.
    > This
    > is exactly what is done on the discussion site, the posts discussion the
    > exam
    > in general without revealing the content of any specific questions.
    >
    > For one to state that acknowledging the time allotted to sit for the exam,
    > or the type of grading system that is used to grade the exam is the same
    > as
    > revealing the content of the questions is certainly a stretch of the
    > imagination.
    >
    > Microsoft may have a lot of people scared, but the last I knew the U.S.
    > Constitution continues to allow free speech, whether or not a corporation
    > attempts to infringe upon this right with a NDA or some other agreement.
    > The
    > Microsoft attorneys are fully aware that an NDA cannot restrict free
    > speech
    > "about a subject," as long as the speech does not disclose the content of
    > the
    > questions.
    >
    > Please be aware that throughout history there have been Totalitarian
    > Regimes
    > that have attempted to silence the proletariat. Thought, Speech and the
    > human
    > Will must remain free, otherwise it is death. Bill
    >


    Free speech, or any other right delegated to you by the constitution, does
    not cover private contractual obligations. By taking the exam, you agree to
    the terms of that exam. That, in essence, is a private agreement between
    you and Microsoft. Microsoft certification is not a right granted to you.
    Microsoft is not forcing you to take the exam, nor is it forcing you to seek
    certification. Your employer might require it of you, but again, nobody is
    forcing you to work for your employer either. You are certainly free to go
    work at McDonalds and not be required to obtain MCSE.

    The classic discussion to free speech is going into a crowded theater and
    yelling "Fire!". You may call it free speech, others call it willfull
    endangerment. And while the Microsoft police may not arrest you, they are
    certainly free to withhold their certifications from anyone they choose to.
    If it is certification at any level that you seek, it is up to you to abide
    by it, if for no other reason than personal integrity. I choose to abide by
    it because I worked hard at earning it, and I respect others that have done
    the same.

    As far as exam times go, it is no secret that you can call a testing center
    and see how much time is alloted for an exam. If the exam center closes at
    6pm, they will not allow you to schedule a test appointment for 5:45pm.
    Once you have taken an exam or two, you can get a pretty good idea of the
    time any particular exam will take. This does not violate anything in the
    NDA.

    Discussing technical aspects in general does not violate anything either.
    Simply looking at the published objectives should give anyone a pretty good
    idea of what to look for in the exam. After all, you are supposed to be
    smart enough to understand the objectives if you are looking to take an
    exam.

    I don't think Microsoft is trying to "scare" anyone. They simply set the
    rules for their certifications, just as motor vehicle departments set the
    rules for licensing drivers, and the FAA sets the rules for licensing
    pilots, or the FCC sets the rules for licensing broadcasting. If you choose
    to not follow the rules, the corresponding agency is free to pull your
    license (or certification if you will).

    That's just my take on it.

    John
     
    John R, Feb 8, 2007
    #4
  5. Need help on MCP certification test

    Richard Guest

    >>>Microsoft certification is not a right granted to you.
    Microsoft is not forcing you to take the exam, nor is it forcing you to seek
    certification.

    John

    If I read your post correctly, I have to resolve within myself that I am
    responsible
    for my actions. This is a major revelation, imagine that I would have to be
    responsible for myself!!!
    If this is true I cannot wine like a child, and expect someone else to wipe
    my ass for me.

    Thank you for clearly stating the obvious, at least to reasonably minds,
    that I have to follow some sort
    of ethical code.

    Richard


    "John R" <> wrote in message
    news:%23U$...
    >
    > "Need help on MCP certification test"
    > <> wrote in
    > message news:...
    >> Good day;
    >> I have visited the NDA and it appears that the wording in the NDA is
    >> seeking
    >> to prohibit the circulation of the exam questions, and/or the content of
    >> the
    >> exam questions. The NDA language is as follows: " All Microsoft
    >> certification
    >> exams, including the content and wording of exam questions, constitute
    >> confidential Microsoft information protected by trade secret law. Anyone
    >> obtaining access to MCP exams is obligated to maintain the
    >> confidentiality of
    >> this information."
    >>
    >> Microsoft could attempt, and then proceed to fail in its attempt, to
    >> prohibit one from speaking about the exam in general. That is to say, not
    >> reveal the content of the questions but to speak about the exam overall.
    >> This
    >> is exactly what is done on the discussion site, the posts discussion the
    >> exam
    >> in general without revealing the content of any specific questions.
    >>
    >> For one to state that acknowledging the time allotted to sit for the
    >> exam,
    >> or the type of grading system that is used to grade the exam is the same
    >> as
    >> revealing the content of the questions is certainly a stretch of the
    >> imagination.
    >>
    >> Microsoft may have a lot of people scared, but the last I knew the U.S.
    >> Constitution continues to allow free speech, whether or not a corporation
    >> attempts to infringe upon this right with a NDA or some other agreement.
    >> The
    >> Microsoft attorneys are fully aware that an NDA cannot restrict free
    >> speech
    >> "about a subject," as long as the speech does not disclose the content of
    >> the
    >> questions.
    >>
    >> Please be aware that throughout history there have been Totalitarian
    >> Regimes
    >> that have attempted to silence the proletariat. Thought, Speech and the
    >> human
    >> Will must remain free, otherwise it is death. Bill
    >>

    >
    > Free speech, or any other right delegated to you by the constitution, does
    > not cover private contractual obligations. By taking the exam, you agree
    > to the terms of that exam. That, in essence, is a private agreement
    > between you and Microsoft. Microsoft certification is not a right granted
    > to you. Microsoft is not forcing you to take the exam, nor is it forcing
    > you to seek certification. Your employer might require it of you, but
    > again, nobody is forcing you to work for your employer either. You are
    > certainly free to go work at McDonalds and not be required to obtain MCSE.
    >
    > The classic discussion to free speech is going into a crowded theater and
    > yelling "Fire!". You may call it free speech, others call it willfull
    > endangerment. And while the Microsoft police may not arrest you, they are
    > certainly free to withhold their certifications from anyone they choose
    > to. If it is certification at any level that you seek, it is up to you to
    > abide by it, if for no other reason than personal integrity. I choose to
    > abide by it because I worked hard at earning it, and I respect others that
    > have done the same.
    >
    > As far as exam times go, it is no secret that you can call a testing
    > center and see how much time is alloted for an exam. If the exam center
    > closes at 6pm, they will not allow you to schedule a test appointment for
    > 5:45pm. Once you have taken an exam or two, you can get a pretty good idea
    > of the time any particular exam will take. This does not violate anything
    > in the NDA.
    >
    > Discussing technical aspects in general does not violate anything either.
    > Simply looking at the published objectives should give anyone a pretty
    > good idea of what to look for in the exam. After all, you are supposed to
    > be smart enough to understand the objectives if you are looking to take an
    > exam.
    >
    > I don't think Microsoft is trying to "scare" anyone. They simply set the
    > rules for their certifications, just as motor vehicle departments set the
    > rules for licensing drivers, and the FAA sets the rules for licensing
    > pilots, or the FCC sets the rules for licensing broadcasting. If you
    > choose to not follow the rules, the corresponding agency is free to pull
    > your license (or certification if you will).
    >
    > That's just my take on it.
    >
    > John
    >
     
    Richard, Feb 8, 2007
    #5
  6. Well done.

    --
    Michael D. Alligood
    MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+,
    Network+, i-Net+, CIW Assoc.,
    CIW Certified Instructor

    http://yetanotherblog.typepad.com/theclassroom



    "John R" <> wrote in message
    news:#U$:

    > "Need help on MCP certification test"
    > <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Good day;
    > > I have visited the NDA and it appears that the wording in the NDA is
    > > seeking
    > > to prohibit the circulation of the exam questions, and/or the content of
    > > the
    > > exam questions. The NDA language is as follows: " All Microsoft
    > > certification
    > > exams, including the content and wording of exam questions, constitute
    > > confidential Microsoft information protected by trade secret law. Anyone
    > > obtaining access to MCP exams is obligated to maintain the confidentiality
    > > of
    > > this information."
    > >
    > > Microsoft could attempt, and then proceed to fail in its attempt, to
    > > prohibit one from speaking about the exam in general. That is to say, not
    > > reveal the content of the questions but to speak about the exam overall.
    > > This
    > > is exactly what is done on the discussion site, the posts discussion the
    > > exam
    > > in general without revealing the content of any specific questions.
    > >
    > > For one to state that acknowledging the time allotted to sit for the exam,
    > > or the type of grading system that is used to grade the exam is the same
    > > as
    > > revealing the content of the questions is certainly a stretch of the
    > > imagination.
    > >
    > > Microsoft may have a lot of people scared, but the last I knew the U.S.
    > > Constitution continues to allow free speech, whether or not a corporation
    > > attempts to infringe upon this right with a NDA or some other agreement.
    > > The
    > > Microsoft attorneys are fully aware that an NDA cannot restrict free
    > > speech
    > > "about a subject," as long as the speech does not disclose the content of
    > > the
    > > questions.
    > >
    > > Please be aware that throughout history there have been Totalitarian
    > > Regimes
    > > that have attempted to silence the proletariat. Thought, Speech and the
    > > human
    > > Will must remain free, otherwise it is death. Bill
    > >

    >
    > Free speech, or any other right delegated to you by the constitution, does
    > not cover private contractual obligations. By taking the exam, you agree to
    > the terms of that exam. That, in essence, is a private agreement between
    > you and Microsoft. Microsoft certification is not a right granted to you.
    > Microsoft is not forcing you to take the exam, nor is it forcing you to seek
    > certification. Your employer might require it of you, but again, nobody is
    > forcing you to work for your employer either. You are certainly free to go
    > work at McDonalds and not be required to obtain MCSE.
    >
    > The classic discussion to free speech is going into a crowded theater and
    > yelling "Fire!". You may call it free speech, others call it willfull
    > endangerment. And while the Microsoft police may not arrest you, they are
    > certainly free to withhold their certifications from anyone they choose to.
    > If it is certification at any level that you seek, it is up to you to abide
    > by it, if for no other reason than personal integrity. I choose to abide by
    > it because I worked hard at earning it, and I respect others that have done
    > the same.
    >
    > As far as exam times go, it is no secret that you can call a testing center
    > and see how much time is alloted for an exam. If the exam center closes at
    > 6pm, they will not allow you to schedule a test appointment for 5:45pm.
    > Once you have taken an exam or two, you can get a pretty good idea of the
    > time any particular exam will take. This does not violate anything in the
    > NDA.
    >
    > Discussing technical aspects in general does not violate anything either.
    > Simply looking at the published objectives should give anyone a pretty good
    > idea of what to look for in the exam. After all, you are supposed to be
    > smart enough to understand the objectives if you are looking to take an
    > exam.
    >
    > I don't think Microsoft is trying to "scare" anyone. They simply set the
    > rules for their certifications, just as motor vehicle departments set the
    > rules for licensing drivers, and the FAA sets the rules for licensing
    > pilots, or the FCC sets the rules for licensing broadcasting. If you choose
    > to not follow the rules, the corresponding agency is free to pull your
    > license (or certification if you will).
    >
    > That's just my take on it.
    >
    > John
     
    Michael D. Alligood, Feb 8, 2007
    #6
  7. A couple of points on this subject: 1. as I previously mentioned the NDA is
    subject to interpretation, and the NDA is written to address the issue of
    revealing the content of questions, 2. the NDA is not written to prohibit
    general discussions regarding the exam and, 3. if one were to take the
    position that the NDA was written to prohibit the general discussion of the
    exam, such a position would not stand in a court of law, regradless if a
    party was to enter into the so-called contract.

    Corporations and private individuals write things into contacts everty day,
    deciding on the legal interpretation and attempting to enforce the
    intepretation is an entirely different matter.

    It is not a true statement that an illegal clause in a contract can be
    inforced in a court of law simply because a party happened to agree to it.
    Because the clause is illegal it follows that the clause cannot be inforced.
    Furthermore, the NDA is subject to interpretation, and by no means does the
    NDA specify general discussions of the exam, implicitly or otherwise. Bill


    "Michael D. Alligood" wrote:

    > Well done.
    >
    > --
    > Michael D. Alligood
    > MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+,
    > Network+, i-Net+, CIW Assoc.,
    > CIW Certified Instructor
    >
    > http://yetanotherblog.typepad.com/theclassroom
    >
    >
    >
    > "John R" <> wrote in message
    > news:#U$:
    >
    > > "Need help on MCP certification test"
    > > <> wrote in message
    > > news:...
    > > > Good day;
    > > > I have visited the NDA and it appears that the wording in the NDA is
    > > > seeking
    > > > to prohibit the circulation of the exam questions, and/or the content of
    > > > the
    > > > exam questions. The NDA language is as follows: " All Microsoft
    > > > certification
    > > > exams, including the content and wording of exam questions, constitute
    > > > confidential Microsoft information protected by trade secret law. Anyone
    > > > obtaining access to MCP exams is obligated to maintain the confidentiality
    > > > of
    > > > this information."
    > > >
    > > > Microsoft could attempt, and then proceed to fail in its attempt, to
    > > > prohibit one from speaking about the exam in general. That is to say, not
    > > > reveal the content of the questions but to speak about the exam overall.
    > > > This
    > > > is exactly what is done on the discussion site, the posts discussion the
    > > > exam
    > > > in general without revealing the content of any specific questions.
    > > >
    > > > For one to state that acknowledging the time allotted to sit for the exam,
    > > > or the type of grading system that is used to grade the exam is the same
    > > > as
    > > > revealing the content of the questions is certainly a stretch of the
    > > > imagination.
    > > >
    > > > Microsoft may have a lot of people scared, but the last I knew the U.S.
    > > > Constitution continues to allow free speech, whether or not a corporation
    > > > attempts to infringe upon this right with a NDA or some other agreement.
    > > > The
    > > > Microsoft attorneys are fully aware that an NDA cannot restrict free
    > > > speech
    > > > "about a subject," as long as the speech does not disclose the content of
    > > > the
    > > > questions.
    > > >
    > > > Please be aware that throughout history there have been Totalitarian
    > > > Regimes
    > > > that have attempted to silence the proletariat. Thought, Speech and the
    > > > human
    > > > Will must remain free, otherwise it is death. Bill
    > > >

    > >
    > > Free speech, or any other right delegated to you by the constitution, does
    > > not cover private contractual obligations. By taking the exam, you agree to
    > > the terms of that exam. That, in essence, is a private agreement between
    > > you and Microsoft. Microsoft certification is not a right granted to you.
    > > Microsoft is not forcing you to take the exam, nor is it forcing you to seek
    > > certification. Your employer might require it of you, but again, nobody is
    > > forcing you to work for your employer either. You are certainly free to go
    > > work at McDonalds and not be required to obtain MCSE.
    > >
    > > The classic discussion to free speech is going into a crowded theater and
    > > yelling "Fire!". You may call it free speech, others call it willfull
    > > endangerment. And while the Microsoft police may not arrest you, they are
    > > certainly free to withhold their certifications from anyone they choose to.
    > > If it is certification at any level that you seek, it is up to you to abide
    > > by it, if for no other reason than personal integrity. I choose to abide by
    > > it because I worked hard at earning it, and I respect others that have done
    > > the same.
    > >
    > > As far as exam times go, it is no secret that you can call a testing center
    > > and see how much time is alloted for an exam. If the exam center closes at
    > > 6pm, they will not allow you to schedule a test appointment for 5:45pm.
    > > Once you have taken an exam or two, you can get a pretty good idea of the
    > > time any particular exam will take. This does not violate anything in the
    > > NDA.
    > >
    > > Discussing technical aspects in general does not violate anything either.
    > > Simply looking at the published objectives should give anyone a pretty good
    > > idea of what to look for in the exam. After all, you are supposed to be
    > > smart enough to understand the objectives if you are looking to take an
    > > exam.
    > >
    > > I don't think Microsoft is trying to "scare" anyone. They simply set the
    > > rules for their certifications, just as motor vehicle departments set the
    > > rules for licensing drivers, and the FAA sets the rules for licensing
    > > pilots, or the FCC sets the rules for licensing broadcasting. If you choose
    > > to not follow the rules, the corresponding agency is free to pull your
    > > license (or certification if you will).
    > >
    > > That's just my take on it.
    > >
    > > John

    >
    >
     
    Need help on MCP certification test, Feb 8, 2007
    #7
  8. Need help on MCP certification test

    Cerebrus Guest

    On Feb 8, 8:40 am, "John R" <> wrote:
    >
    > Free speech, or any other right delegated to you by the constitution, does
    > not cover private contractual obligations. By taking the exam, you agree to
    > the terms of that exam. That, in essence, is a private agreement between
    > you and Microsoft. Microsoft certification is not a right granted to you.
    > Microsoft is not forcing you to take the exam, nor is it forcing you to seek
    > certification. Your employer might require it of you, but again, nobody is
    > forcing you to work for your employer either. You are certainly free to go
    > work at McDonalds and not be required to obtain MCSE.
    >
    > The classic discussion to free speech is going into a crowded theater and
    > yelling "Fire!". You may call it free speech, others call it willfull
    > endangerment. And while the Microsoft police may not arrest you, they are
    > certainly free to withhold their certifications from anyone they choose to.
    > If it is certification at any level that you seek, it is up to you to abide
    > by it, if for no other reason than personal integrity. I choose to abide by
    > it because I worked hard at earning it, and I respect others that have done
    > the same.
    >
    > As far as exam times go, it is no secret that you can call a testing center
    > and see how much time is alloted for an exam. If the exam center closes at
    > 6pm, they will not allow you to schedule a test appointment for 5:45pm.
    > Once you have taken an exam or two, you can get a pretty good idea of the
    > time any particular exam will take. This does not violate anything in the
    > NDA.
    >
    > Discussing technical aspects in general does not violate anything either.
    > Simply looking at the published objectives should give anyone a pretty good
    > idea of what to look for in the exam. After all, you are supposed to be
    > smart enough to understand the objectives if you are looking to take an
    > exam.
    >
    > I don't think Microsoft is trying to "scare" anyone. They simply set the
    > rules for their certifications, just as motor vehicle departments set the
    > rules for licensing drivers, and the FAA sets the rules for licensing
    > pilots, or the FCC sets the rules for licensing broadcasting. If you choose
    > to not follow the rules, the corresponding agency is free to pull your
    > license (or certification if you will).
    >
    > That's just my take on it.
    >
    > John-


    That was *very* well said, John. A real pleasure to read.

    ----------
    Cerebrus.
    MCNGP #LIV (LIVewire ! Please hug !)

    Join the fight against Br@indumps
    http://www.certguard.com/forums/
     
    Cerebrus, Feb 8, 2007
    #8
  9. Need help on MCP certification test

    Cerebrus Guest

    On Feb 8, 11:03 am, Need help on MCP certification test
    <> wrote:
    > A couple of points on this subject: 1. as I previously mentioned the NDA is
    > subject to interpretation, and the NDA is written to address the issue of
    > revealing the content of questions, 2. the NDA is not written to prohibit
    > general discussions regarding the exam and, 3. if one were to take the
    > position that the NDA was written to prohibit the general discussion of the
    > exam, such a position would not stand in a court of law, regradless if a
    > party was to enter into the so-called contract.
    >
    > Corporations and private individuals write things into contacts everty day,
    > deciding on the legal interpretation and attempting to enforce the
    > intepretation is an entirely different matter.
    >
    > It is not a true statement that an illegal clause in a contract can be
    > inforced in a court of law simply because a party happened to agree to it.
    > Because the clause is illegal it follows that the clause cannot be inforced.
    > Furthermore, the NDA is subject to interpretation, and by no means does the
    > NDA specify general discussions of the exam, implicitly or otherwise. Bill


    So, you're saying that if an employee signs an agreement with his
    employer on Non-disclosure of company secrets, then leaves the company
    and blabbers the secrets to the whole world, he cannot be challenged
    in court ?
     
    Cerebrus, Feb 8, 2007
    #9
  10. Good day:
    That which I have written is addressed to 1. the interpretation of the NDA
    and, 2. the legal principle of not being able to inforce an illegal clause
    contained in a contract.


    "Cerebrus" wrote:

    > On Feb 8, 8:40 am, "John R" <> wrote:
    > >
    > > Free speech, or any other right delegated to you by the constitution, does
    > > not cover private contractual obligations. By taking the exam, you agree to
    > > the terms of that exam. That, in essence, is a private agreement between
    > > you and Microsoft. Microsoft certification is not a right granted to you.
    > > Microsoft is not forcing you to take the exam, nor is it forcing you to seek
    > > certification. Your employer might require it of you, but again, nobody is
    > > forcing you to work for your employer either. You are certainly free to go
    > > work at McDonalds and not be required to obtain MCSE.
    > >
    > > The classic discussion to free speech is going into a crowded theater and
    > > yelling "Fire!". You may call it free speech, others call it willfull
    > > endangerment. And while the Microsoft police may not arrest you, they are
    > > certainly free to withhold their certifications from anyone they choose to.
    > > If it is certification at any level that you seek, it is up to you to abide
    > > by it, if for no other reason than personal integrity. I choose to abide by
    > > it because I worked hard at earning it, and I respect others that have done
    > > the same.
    > >
    > > As far as exam times go, it is no secret that you can call a testing center
    > > and see how much time is alloted for an exam. If the exam center closes at
    > > 6pm, they will not allow you to schedule a test appointment for 5:45pm.
    > > Once you have taken an exam or two, you can get a pretty good idea of the
    > > time any particular exam will take. This does not violate anything in the
    > > NDA.
    > >
    > > Discussing technical aspects in general does not violate anything either.
    > > Simply looking at the published objectives should give anyone a pretty good
    > > idea of what to look for in the exam. After all, you are supposed to be
    > > smart enough to understand the objectives if you are looking to take an
    > > exam.
    > >
    > > I don't think Microsoft is trying to "scare" anyone. They simply set the
    > > rules for their certifications, just as motor vehicle departments set the
    > > rules for licensing drivers, and the FAA sets the rules for licensing
    > > pilots, or the FCC sets the rules for licensing broadcasting. If you choose
    > > to not follow the rules, the corresponding agency is free to pull your
    > > license (or certification if you will).
    > >
    > > That's just my take on it.
    > >
    > > John-

    >
    > That was *very* well said, John. A real pleasure to read.
    >
    > ----------
    > Cerebrus.
    > MCNGP #LIV (LIVewire ! Please hug !)
    >
    > Join the fight against Br@indumps
    > http://www.certguard.com/forums/
    >
    >
     
    Need help on MCP certification test, Feb 8, 2007
    #10
  11. Need help on MCP certification test

    JaR Guest

    On Wed, 07 Feb 2007 22:03:00 -0800, Need help on MCP certification test
    cast into the ether:

    > cannot be inforced.


    It is clear that you are not an attorney, nor do you have much grounding
    in legal matters. Please cite references for your position other than your
    personal opinion.

    (It's "enforced")

    --
    JaR
    IANAL, either
    Remove hat to reply
     
    JaR, Feb 8, 2007
    #11
  12. Need help on MCP certification test

    Spyder Guest

    As far as I read I did not see that any one has argued not being able to
    "generally" discuss exams. That is the purpose of groups like this, to
    "generally" discuss exams and to get help on areas you might be weak on.

    As far as your comments about an illegal clause. There is nothing at all
    illegal in the Microsoft NDA. Don't you think that Microsoft can afford some
    of the best attorney's in the states to make sure that the NDA is legal?

    The entire purpose of the NDA is for Microsoft to take the best measures
    they can to ensure that no one can cheat and get a certification that they
    did not earn and don't know the subject at hand.

    In my opinion, if it matters to anyone. You bringing a discussion like this
    and argueing these points seems childish. If you don't like the NDA or how
    Microsoft handles the exams. Then my advice, join the Apple or Novell crowd
    and leave those of us that want to go after the Microsoft certifications be.

    As said before, this is only my opinion and may not matter to anyone else,
    it just irritates me that you are wanting to argue about the NDA when you are
    not forced to agree to it, if it bothers you that much, then don't take the
    exams.

    MBrooks

    "Need help on MCP certification test" wrote:

    > Good day:
    > That which I have written is addressed to 1. the interpretation of the NDA
    > and, 2. the legal principle of not being able to inforce an illegal clause
    > contained in a contract.
    >
    >
    > "Cerebrus" wrote:
    >
    > > On Feb 8, 8:40 am, "John R" <> wrote:
    > > >
    > > > Free speech, or any other right delegated to you by the constitution, does
    > > > not cover private contractual obligations. By taking the exam, you agree to
    > > > the terms of that exam. That, in essence, is a private agreement between
    > > > you and Microsoft. Microsoft certification is not a right granted to you.
    > > > Microsoft is not forcing you to take the exam, nor is it forcing you to seek
    > > > certification. Your employer might require it of you, but again, nobody is
    > > > forcing you to work for your employer either. You are certainly free to go
    > > > work at McDonalds and not be required to obtain MCSE.
    > > >
    > > > The classic discussion to free speech is going into a crowded theater and
    > > > yelling "Fire!". You may call it free speech, others call it willfull
    > > > endangerment. And while the Microsoft police may not arrest you, they are
    > > > certainly free to withhold their certifications from anyone they choose to.
    > > > If it is certification at any level that you seek, it is up to you to abide
    > > > by it, if for no other reason than personal integrity. I choose to abide by
    > > > it because I worked hard at earning it, and I respect others that have done
    > > > the same.
    > > >
    > > > As far as exam times go, it is no secret that you can call a testing center
    > > > and see how much time is alloted for an exam. If the exam center closes at
    > > > 6pm, they will not allow you to schedule a test appointment for 5:45pm.
    > > > Once you have taken an exam or two, you can get a pretty good idea of the
    > > > time any particular exam will take. This does not violate anything in the
    > > > NDA.
    > > >
    > > > Discussing technical aspects in general does not violate anything either.
    > > > Simply looking at the published objectives should give anyone a pretty good
    > > > idea of what to look for in the exam. After all, you are supposed to be
    > > > smart enough to understand the objectives if you are looking to take an
    > > > exam.
    > > >
    > > > I don't think Microsoft is trying to "scare" anyone. They simply set the
    > > > rules for their certifications, just as motor vehicle departments set the
    > > > rules for licensing drivers, and the FAA sets the rules for licensing
    > > > pilots, or the FCC sets the rules for licensing broadcasting. If you choose
    > > > to not follow the rules, the corresponding agency is free to pull your
    > > > license (or certification if you will).
    > > >
    > > > That's just my take on it.
    > > >
    > > > John-

    > >
    > > That was *very* well said, John. A real pleasure to read.
    > >
    > > ----------
    > > Cerebrus.
    > > MCNGP #LIV (LIVewire ! Please hug !)
    > >
    > > Join the fight against Br@indumps
    > > http://www.certguard.com/forums/
    > >
    > >
     
    Spyder, Feb 8, 2007
    #12
  13. Need help on MCP certification test

    Manuel Moore Guest

    On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:46:01 -0800, Need help on MCP certification test
    <> wrote:

    >Good day:
    >That which I have written is addressed to 1. the interpretation of the NDA
    >and, 2. the legal principle of not being able to inforce an illegal clause
    >contained in a contract.
    >
    >
    >"Cerebrus" wrote:
    >
    >> On Feb 8, 8:40 am, "John R" <> wrote:
    >> >
    >> > Free speech, or any other right delegated to you by the constitution, does
    >> > not cover private contractual obligations. By taking the exam, you agree to
    >> > the terms of that exam. That, in essence, is a private agreement between
    >> > you and Microsoft. Microsoft certification is not a right granted to you.
    >> > Microsoft is not forcing you to take the exam, nor is it forcing you to seek
    >> > certification. Your employer might require it of you, but again, nobody is
    >> > forcing you to work for your employer either. You are certainly free to go
    >> > work at McDonalds and not be required to obtain MCSE.
    >> >
    >> > The classic discussion to free speech is going into a crowded theater and
    >> > yelling "Fire!". You may call it free speech, others call it willfull
    >> > endangerment. And while the Microsoft police may not arrest you, they are
    >> > certainly free to withhold their certifications from anyone they choose to.
    >> > If it is certification at any level that you seek, it is up to you to abide
    >> > by it, if for no other reason than personal integrity. I choose to abide by
    >> > it because I worked hard at earning it, and I respect others that have done
    >> > the same.
    >> >
    >> > As far as exam times go, it is no secret that you can call a testing center
    >> > and see how much time is alloted for an exam. If the exam center closes at
    >> > 6pm, they will not allow you to schedule a test appointment for 5:45pm.
    >> > Once you have taken an exam or two, you can get a pretty good idea of the
    >> > time any particular exam will take. This does not violate anything in the
    >> > NDA.
    >> >
    >> > Discussing technical aspects in general does not violate anything either.
    >> > Simply looking at the published objectives should give anyone a pretty good
    >> > idea of what to look for in the exam. After all, you are supposed to be
    >> > smart enough to understand the objectives if you are looking to take an
    >> > exam.
    >> >
    >> > I don't think Microsoft is trying to "scare" anyone. They simply set the
    >> > rules for their certifications, just as motor vehicle departments set the
    >> > rules for licensing drivers, and the FAA sets the rules for licensing
    >> > pilots, or the FCC sets the rules for licensing broadcasting. If you choose
    >> > to not follow the rules, the corresponding agency is free to pull your
    >> > license (or certification if you will).
    >> >
    >> > That's just my take on it.
    >> >
    >> > John-

    >>
    >> That was *very* well said, John. A real pleasure to read.
    >>
    >> ----------
    >> Cerebrus.
    >> MCNGP #LIV (LIVewire ! Please hug !)
    >>
    >> Join the fight against Br@indumps
    >> http://www.certguard.com/forums/
    >>
    >>

    Well, given that I haven't studied law and I took an exam just last
    Friday and I did read the NDA, I cannot find any illegal clause in
    there.
    All that Microsoft wants from you is the very same that any company
    would request from you. And that is that you do not talk about
    business secrets. In this case the questions you were asked during the
    exam.
    Microsoft does that so that in the end you can value yourself the work
    you have put into getting certified.
    And that by itself, having the reward of your work, should be reason
    enough to adhere to the NDA.

    But that's only my humble opinion

    Manuel
     
    Manuel Moore, Feb 8, 2007
    #13
  14. Good day:
    You may want to consider reading all the posts including the posts that
    began the discussion and are shown under the title 70-271 Exam about two
    threads removed from this one. You have made my original point which is to
    say that the NDA does not prohibit general discussions concerning the exams.
    The NDA does seek to prohibit revealing the content of specific questions
    that are a part of the exam, and to do so is legal in my opinion.

    On the other hand there are some that have attempted to take the position
    that the NDA prohibits "discussion" on exam. I have not said that there is
    anything illegal in the NDA. However, if one was to reach a wrongful
    interpretation, and then seek to inforce the wrongful interpretation in a
    court of law, then such a wrongful act would not withstand legal scrutiny.
    Bill

    "Spyder" wrote:

    > As far as I read I did not see that any one has argued not being able to
    > "generally" discuss exams. That is the purpose of groups like this, to
    > "generally" discuss exams and to get help on areas you might be weak on.
    >
    > As far as your comments about an illegal clause. There is nothing at all
    > illegal in the Microsoft NDA. Don't you think that Microsoft can afford some
    > of the best attorney's in the states to make sure that the NDA is legal?
    >
    > The entire purpose of the NDA is for Microsoft to take the best measures
    > they can to ensure that no one can cheat and get a certification that they
    > did not earn and don't know the subject at hand.
    >
    > In my opinion, if it matters to anyone. You bringing a discussion like this
    > and argueing these points seems childish. If you don't like the NDA or how
    > Microsoft handles the exams. Then my advice, join the Apple or Novell crowd
    > and leave those of us that want to go after the Microsoft certifications be.
    >
    > As said before, this is only my opinion and may not matter to anyone else,
    > it just irritates me that you are wanting to argue about the NDA when you are
    > not forced to agree to it, if it bothers you that much, then don't take the
    > exams.
    >
    > MBrooks
    >
    > "Need help on MCP certification test" wrote:
    >
    > > Good day:
    > > That which I have written is addressed to 1. the interpretation of the NDA
    > > and, 2. the legal principle of not being able to inforce an illegal clause
    > > contained in a contract.
    > >
    > >
    > > "Cerebrus" wrote:
    > >
    > > > On Feb 8, 8:40 am, "John R" <> wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > Free speech, or any other right delegated to you by the constitution, does
    > > > > not cover private contractual obligations. By taking the exam, you agree to
    > > > > the terms of that exam. That, in essence, is a private agreement between
    > > > > you and Microsoft. Microsoft certification is not a right granted to you.
    > > > > Microsoft is not forcing you to take the exam, nor is it forcing you to seek
    > > > > certification. Your employer might require it of you, but again, nobody is
    > > > > forcing you to work for your employer either. You are certainly free to go
    > > > > work at McDonalds and not be required to obtain MCSE.
    > > > >
    > > > > The classic discussion to free speech is going into a crowded theater and
    > > > > yelling "Fire!". You may call it free speech, others call it willfull
    > > > > endangerment. And while the Microsoft police may not arrest you, they are
    > > > > certainly free to withhold their certifications from anyone they choose to.
    > > > > If it is certification at any level that you seek, it is up to you to abide
    > > > > by it, if for no other reason than personal integrity. I choose to abide by
    > > > > it because I worked hard at earning it, and I respect others that have done
    > > > > the same.
    > > > >
    > > > > As far as exam times go, it is no secret that you can call a testing center
    > > > > and see how much time is alloted for an exam. If the exam center closes at
    > > > > 6pm, they will not allow you to schedule a test appointment for 5:45pm.
    > > > > Once you have taken an exam or two, you can get a pretty good idea of the
    > > > > time any particular exam will take. This does not violate anything in the
    > > > > NDA.
    > > > >
    > > > > Discussing technical aspects in general does not violate anything either.
    > > > > Simply looking at the published objectives should give anyone a pretty good
    > > > > idea of what to look for in the exam. After all, you are supposed to be
    > > > > smart enough to understand the objectives if you are looking to take an
    > > > > exam.
    > > > >
    > > > > I don't think Microsoft is trying to "scare" anyone. They simply set the
    > > > > rules for their certifications, just as motor vehicle departments set the
    > > > > rules for licensing drivers, and the FAA sets the rules for licensing
    > > > > pilots, or the FCC sets the rules for licensing broadcasting. If you choose
    > > > > to not follow the rules, the corresponding agency is free to pull your
    > > > > license (or certification if you will).
    > > > >
    > > > > That's just my take on it.
    > > > >
    > > > > John-
    > > >
    > > > That was *very* well said, John. A real pleasure to read.
    > > >
    > > > ----------
    > > > Cerebrus.
    > > > MCNGP #LIV (LIVewire ! Please hug !)
    > > >
    > > > Join the fight against Br@indumps
    > > > http://www.certguard.com/forums/
    > > >
    > > >
     
    Need help on MCP certification test, Feb 8, 2007
    #14
  15. I think you need to consult an attorney specializing in these related laws.
    It seems clear that you are determined to justify your actions based on this
    newsgroup.
    Since it appears no one here is a lawyer and you want a legal
    interpretation, you have come to the wrong place.
    You attempt to disqualify everything that is said opposing what you want to
    read and you are failing badly.

    The bottom lime is you seem to want an easy way out at the expense of those
    who work hard and value their certifications.
    At work do you also try to find the easy way out at your employers expense?

    --
    Jupiter Jones [MVP]
    http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
    http://www.dts-l.org


    "Need help on MCP certification test"
    <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Good day:
    > That which I have written is addressed to 1. the interpretation of the NDA
    > and, 2. the legal principle of not being able to inforce an illegal clause
    > contained in a contract.
    >
    >
    > "Cerebrus" wrote:
    >
    >> On Feb 8, 8:40 am, "John R" <> wrote:
    >> >
    >> > Free speech, or any other right delegated to you by the constitution,
    >> > does
    >> > not cover private contractual obligations. By taking the exam, you
    >> > agree to
    >> > the terms of that exam. That, in essence, is a private agreement
    >> > between
    >> > you and Microsoft. Microsoft certification is not a right granted to
    >> > you.
    >> > Microsoft is not forcing you to take the exam, nor is it forcing you to
    >> > seek
    >> > certification. Your employer might require it of you, but again,
    >> > nobody is
    >> > forcing you to work for your employer either. You are certainly free
    >> > to go
    >> > work at McDonalds and not be required to obtain MCSE.
    >> >
    >> > The classic discussion to free speech is going into a crowded theater
    >> > and
    >> > yelling "Fire!". You may call it free speech, others call it willfull
    >> > endangerment. And while the Microsoft police may not arrest you, they
    >> > are
    >> > certainly free to withhold their certifications from anyone they choose
    >> > to.
    >> > If it is certification at any level that you seek, it is up to you to
    >> > abide
    >> > by it, if for no other reason than personal integrity. I choose to
    >> > abide by
    >> > it because I worked hard at earning it, and I respect others that have
    >> > done
    >> > the same.
    >> >
    >> > As far as exam times go, it is no secret that you can call a testing
    >> > center
    >> > and see how much time is alloted for an exam. If the exam center
    >> > closes at
    >> > 6pm, they will not allow you to schedule a test appointment for 5:45pm.
    >> > Once you have taken an exam or two, you can get a pretty good idea of
    >> > the
    >> > time any particular exam will take. This does not violate anything in
    >> > the
    >> > NDA.
    >> >
    >> > Discussing technical aspects in general does not violate anything
    >> > either.
    >> > Simply looking at the published objectives should give anyone a pretty
    >> > good
    >> > idea of what to look for in the exam. After all, you are supposed to
    >> > be
    >> > smart enough to understand the objectives if you are looking to take an
    >> > exam.
    >> >
    >> > I don't think Microsoft is trying to "scare" anyone. They simply set
    >> > the
    >> > rules for their certifications, just as motor vehicle departments set
    >> > the
    >> > rules for licensing drivers, and the FAA sets the rules for licensing
    >> > pilots, or the FCC sets the rules for licensing broadcasting. If you
    >> > choose
    >> > to not follow the rules, the corresponding agency is free to pull your
    >> > license (or certification if you will).
    >> >
    >> > That's just my take on it.
    >> >
    >> > John-

    >>
    >> That was *very* well said, John. A real pleasure to read.
    >>
    >> ----------
    >> Cerebrus.
    >> MCNGP #LIV (LIVewire ! Please hug !)
    >>
    >> Join the fight against Br@indumps
    >> http://www.certguard.com/forums/
    >>
    >>
     
    Jupiter Jones [MVP], Feb 8, 2007
    #15
  16. > However, if one was to reach a wrongful
    > interpretation, and then seek to inforce the wrongful interpretation in a
    > court of law, then such a wrongful act would not withstand legal scrutiny.


    It would hold because ignorance is not a defense in the court of law.
    That would be the equivalent of someone breaking a "law" and citing that
    they did not know it was illegal. They would still be punished. Those of
    us who participate in the Microsoft Certification Program know what we
    can and cannot divulge. We make every effort to "police" ourselves, our
    certified colleagues, and those not aware of the NDA like you were
    originally.

    Now with that all hashed out, how can we help you?

    --
    Michael D. Alligood
    MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+,
    Network+, i-Net+, CIW Assoc.,
    CIW Certified Instructor

    http://yetanotherblog.typepad.com/theclassroom



    "Need help on MCP certification test"
    <> wrote in
    message news::

    > Good day:
    > You may want to consider reading all the posts including the posts that
    > began the discussion and are shown under the title 70-271 Exam about two
    > threads removed from this one. You have made my original point which is to
    > say that the NDA does not prohibit general discussions concerning the exams.
    > The NDA does seek to prohibit revealing the content of specific questions
    > that are a part of the exam, and to do so is legal in my opinion.
    >
    > On the other hand there are some that have attempted to take the position
    > that the NDA prohibits "discussion" on exam. I have not said that there is
    > anything illegal in the NDA. However, if one was to reach a wrongful
    > interpretation, and then seek to inforce the wrongful interpretation in a
    > court of law, then such a wrongful act would not withstand legal scrutiny.
    > Bill
    >
    > "Spyder" wrote:
    >
    > > As far as I read I did not see that any one has argued not being able to
    > > "generally" discuss exams. That is the purpose of groups like this, to
    > > "generally" discuss exams and to get help on areas you might be weak on.
    > >
    > > As far as your comments about an illegal clause. There is nothing at all
    > > illegal in the Microsoft NDA. Don't you think that Microsoft can afford some
    > > of the best attorney's in the states to make sure that the NDA is legal?
    > >
    > > The entire purpose of the NDA is for Microsoft to take the best measures
    > > they can to ensure that no one can cheat and get a certification that they
    > > did not earn and don't know the subject at hand.
    > >
    > > In my opinion, if it matters to anyone. You bringing a discussion like this
    > > and argueing these points seems childish. If you don't like the NDA or how
    > > Microsoft handles the exams. Then my advice, join the Apple or Novell crowd
    > > and leave those of us that want to go after the Microsoft certifications be.
    > >
    > > As said before, this is only my opinion and may not matter to anyone else,
    > > it just irritates me that you are wanting to argue about the NDA when you are
    > > not forced to agree to it, if it bothers you that much, then don't take the
    > > exams.
    > >
    > > MBrooks
    > >
    > > "Need help on MCP certification test" wrote:
    > >
    > > > Good day:
    > > > That which I have written is addressed to 1. the interpretation of the NDA
    > > > and, 2. the legal principle of not being able to inforce an illegal clause
    > > > contained in a contract.
    > > >
    > > >
    > > > "Cerebrus" wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > On Feb 8, 8:40 am, "John R" <> wrote:
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Free speech, or any other right delegated to you by the constitution, does
    > > > > > not cover private contractual obligations. By taking the exam, you agree to
    > > > > > the terms of that exam. That, in essence, is a private agreement between
    > > > > > you and Microsoft. Microsoft certification is not a right granted to you.
    > > > > > Microsoft is not forcing you to take the exam, nor is it forcing you to seek
    > > > > > certification. Your employer might require it of you, but again, nobody is
    > > > > > forcing you to work for your employer either. You are certainly free to go
    > > > > > work at McDonalds and not be required to obtain MCSE.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > The classic discussion to free speech is going into a crowded theater and
    > > > > > yelling "Fire!". You may call it free speech, others call it willfull
    > > > > > endangerment. And while the Microsoft police may not arrest you, they are
    > > > > > certainly free to withhold their certifications from anyone they choose to.
    > > > > > If it is certification at any level that you seek, it is up to you to abide
    > > > > > by it, if for no other reason than personal integrity. I choose to abide by
    > > > > > it because I worked hard at earning it, and I respect others that have done
    > > > > > the same.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > As far as exam times go, it is no secret that you can call a testing center
    > > > > > and see how much time is alloted for an exam. If the exam center closes at
    > > > > > 6pm, they will not allow you to schedule a test appointment for 5:45pm.
    > > > > > Once you have taken an exam or two, you can get a pretty good idea of the
    > > > > > time any particular exam will take. This does not violate anything in the
    > > > > > NDA.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Discussing technical aspects in general does not violate anything either.
    > > > > > Simply looking at the published objectives should give anyone a pretty good
    > > > > > idea of what to look for in the exam. After all, you are supposed to be
    > > > > > smart enough to understand the objectives if you are looking to take an
    > > > > > exam.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > I don't think Microsoft is trying to "scare" anyone. They simply set the
    > > > > > rules for their certifications, just as motor vehicle departments set the
    > > > > > rules for licensing drivers, and the FAA sets the rules for licensing
    > > > > > pilots, or the FCC sets the rules for licensing broadcasting. If you choose
    > > > > > to not follow the rules, the corresponding agency is free to pull your
    > > > > > license (or certification if you will).
    > > > > >
    > > > > > That's just my take on it.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > John-
    > > > >
    > > > > That was *very* well said, John. A real pleasure to read.
    > > > >
    > > > > ----------
    > > > > Cerebrus.
    > > > > MCNGP #LIV (LIVewire ! Please hug !)
    > > > >
    > > > > Join the fight against Br@indumps
    > > > > http://www.certguard.com/forums/
    > > > >
    > > > >
     
    Michael D. Alligood, Feb 8, 2007
    #16
  17. Legality aside; if Microsoft finds you in the wrong concerning the
    "agreement" you adhered to in order to take your exam, you can be
    decertified and barred from future certifications. I have seen this
    first hand while employed with a Computer Learning Center.

    --
    Michael D. Alligood
    MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+,
    Network+, i-Net+, CIW Assoc.,
    CIW Certified Instructor

    http://yetanotherblog.typepad.com/theclassroom



    "Manuel Moore" <> wrote in message
    news::

    > On Thu, 8 Feb 2007 07:46:01 -0800, Need help on MCP certification test
    > <> wrote:
    >
    > >Good day:
    > >That which I have written is addressed to 1. the interpretation of the NDA
    > >and, 2. the legal principle of not being able to inforce an illegal clause
    > >contained in a contract.
    > >
    > >
    > >"Cerebrus" wrote:
    > >
    > >> On Feb 8, 8:40 am, "John R" <> wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> > Free speech, or any other right delegated to you by the constitution, does
    > >> > not cover private contractual obligations. By taking the exam, you agree to
    > >> > the terms of that exam. That, in essence, is a private agreement between
    > >> > you and Microsoft. Microsoft certification is not a right granted to you.
    > >> > Microsoft is not forcing you to take the exam, nor is it forcing you to seek
    > >> > certification. Your employer might require it of you, but again, nobody is
    > >> > forcing you to work for your employer either. You are certainly free to go
    > >> > work at McDonalds and not be required to obtain MCSE.
    > >> >
    > >> > The classic discussion to free speech is going into a crowded theater and
    > >> > yelling "Fire!". You may call it free speech, others call it willfull
    > >> > endangerment. And while the Microsoft police may not arrest you, they are
    > >> > certainly free to withhold their certifications from anyone they choose to.
    > >> > If it is certification at any level that you seek, it is up to you to abide
    > >> > by it, if for no other reason than personal integrity. I choose to abide by
    > >> > it because I worked hard at earning it, and I respect others that have done
    > >> > the same.
    > >> >
    > >> > As far as exam times go, it is no secret that you can call a testing center
    > >> > and see how much time is alloted for an exam. If the exam center closes at
    > >> > 6pm, they will not allow you to schedule a test appointment for 5:45pm.
    > >> > Once you have taken an exam or two, you can get a pretty good idea of the
    > >> > time any particular exam will take. This does not violate anything in the
    > >> > NDA.
    > >> >
    > >> > Discussing technical aspects in general does not violate anything either.
    > >> > Simply looking at the published objectives should give anyone a pretty good
    > >> > idea of what to look for in the exam. After all, you are supposed to be
    > >> > smart enough to understand the objectives if you are looking to take an
    > >> > exam.
    > >> >
    > >> > I don't think Microsoft is trying to "scare" anyone. They simply set the
    > >> > rules for their certifications, just as motor vehicle departments set the
    > >> > rules for licensing drivers, and the FAA sets the rules for licensing
    > >> > pilots, or the FCC sets the rules for licensing broadcasting. If you choose
    > >> > to not follow the rules, the corresponding agency is free to pull your
    > >> > license (or certification if you will).
    > >> >
    > >> > That's just my take on it.
    > >> >
    > >> > John-
    > >>
    > >> That was *very* well said, John. A real pleasure to read.
    > >>
    > >> ----------
    > >> Cerebrus.
    > >> MCNGP #LIV (LIVewire ! Please hug !)
    > >>
    > >> Join the fight against Br@indumps
    > >> http://www.certguard.com/forums/
    > >>
    > >>

    > Well, given that I haven't studied law and I took an exam just last
    > Friday and I did read the NDA, I cannot find any illegal clause in
    > there.
    > All that Microsoft wants from you is the very same that any company
    > would request from you. And that is that you do not talk about
    > business secrets. In this case the questions you were asked during the
    > exam.
    > Microsoft does that so that in the end you can value yourself the work
    > you have put into getting certified.
    > And that by itself, having the reward of your work, should be reason
    > enough to adhere to the NDA.
    >
    > But that's only my humble opinion
    >
    > Manuel
     
    Michael D. Alligood, Feb 8, 2007
    #17
  18. Jupiter! I have never seen you in these parts of the newsgroup world!
    Normally you are hanging out in Windows XP newsgroups. Did the NDA
    conversation spike your curiosity?

    --
    Michael D. Alligood
    MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+,
    Network+, i-Net+, CIW Assoc.,
    CIW Certified Instructor

    http://yetanotherblog.typepad.com/theclassroom



    "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" <> wrote in message
    news:u#:

    > I think you need to consult an attorney specializing in these related laws.
    > It seems clear that you are determined to justify your actions based on this
    > newsgroup.
    > Since it appears no one here is a lawyer and you want a legal
    > interpretation, you have come to the wrong place.
    > You attempt to disqualify everything that is said opposing what you want to
    > read and you are failing badly.
    >
    > The bottom lime is you seem to want an easy way out at the expense of those
    > who work hard and value their certifications.
    > At work do you also try to find the easy way out at your employers expense?
    >
    > --
    > Jupiter Jones [MVP]
    > http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
    > http://www.dts-l.org
    >
    >
    > "Need help on MCP certification test"
    > <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Good day:
    > > That which I have written is addressed to 1. the interpretation of the NDA
    > > and, 2. the legal principle of not being able to inforce an illegal clause
    > > contained in a contract.
    > >
    > >
    > > "Cerebrus" wrote:
    > >
    > >> On Feb 8, 8:40 am, "John R" <> wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> > Free speech, or any other right delegated to you by the constitution,
    > >> > does
    > >> > not cover private contractual obligations. By taking the exam, you
    > >> > agree to
    > >> > the terms of that exam. That, in essence, is a private agreement
    > >> > between
    > >> > you and Microsoft. Microsoft certification is not a right granted to
    > >> > you.
    > >> > Microsoft is not forcing you to take the exam, nor is it forcing you to
    > >> > seek
    > >> > certification. Your employer might require it of you, but again,
    > >> > nobody is
    > >> > forcing you to work for your employer either. You are certainly free
    > >> > to go
    > >> > work at McDonalds and not be required to obtain MCSE.
    > >> >
    > >> > The classic discussion to free speech is going into a crowded theater
    > >> > and
    > >> > yelling "Fire!". You may call it free speech, others call it willfull
    > >> > endangerment. And while the Microsoft police may not arrest you, they
    > >> > are
    > >> > certainly free to withhold their certifications from anyone they choose
    > >> > to.
    > >> > If it is certification at any level that you seek, it is up to you to
    > >> > abide
    > >> > by it, if for no other reason than personal integrity. I choose to
    > >> > abide by
    > >> > it because I worked hard at earning it, and I respect others that have
    > >> > done
    > >> > the same.
    > >> >
    > >> > As far as exam times go, it is no secret that you can call a testing
    > >> > center
    > >> > and see how much time is alloted for an exam. If the exam center
    > >> > closes at
    > >> > 6pm, they will not allow you to schedule a test appointment for 5:45pm.
    > >> > Once you have taken an exam or two, you can get a pretty good idea of
    > >> > the
    > >> > time any particular exam will take. This does not violate anything in
    > >> > the
    > >> > NDA.
    > >> >
    > >> > Discussing technical aspects in general does not violate anything
    > >> > either.
    > >> > Simply looking at the published objectives should give anyone a pretty
    > >> > good
    > >> > idea of what to look for in the exam. After all, you are supposed to
    > >> > be
    > >> > smart enough to understand the objectives if you are looking to take an
    > >> > exam.
    > >> >
    > >> > I don't think Microsoft is trying to "scare" anyone. They simply set
    > >> > the
    > >> > rules for their certifications, just as motor vehicle departments set
    > >> > the
    > >> > rules for licensing drivers, and the FAA sets the rules for licensing
    > >> > pilots, or the FCC sets the rules for licensing broadcasting. If you
    > >> > choose
    > >> > to not follow the rules, the corresponding agency is free to pull your
    > >> > license (or certification if you will).
    > >> >
    > >> > That's just my take on it.
    > >> >
    > >> > John-
    > >>
    > >> That was *very* well said, John. A real pleasure to read.
    > >>
    > >> ----------
    > >> Cerebrus.
    > >> MCNGP #LIV (LIVewire ! Please hug !)
    > >>
    > >> Join the fight against Br@indumps
    > >> http://www.certguard.com/forums/
    > >>
    > >>
     
    Michael D. Alligood, Feb 8, 2007
    #18
  19. Michael, the examlple you have given does not address the specific point I
    made. If your example were applied to the subject at hand then you would be
    making the case that Microsoft was ignorant of the law. I think we can agree
    that Microsoft is not ignorant of the law.

    "Michael D. Alligood" wrote:

    > > However, if one was to reach a wrongful
    > > interpretation, and then seek to inforce the wrongful interpretation in a
    > > court of law, then such a wrongful act would not withstand legal scrutiny.

    >
    > It would hold because ignorance is not a defense in the court of law.
    > That would be the equivalent of someone breaking a "law" and citing that
    > they did not know it was illegal. They would still be punished. Those of
    > us who participate in the Microsoft Certification Program know what we
    > can and cannot divulge. We make every effort to "police" ourselves, our
    > certified colleagues, and those not aware of the NDA like you were
    > originally.
    >
    > Now with that all hashed out, how can we help you?
    >
    > --
    > Michael D. Alligood
    > MCSA, MCDST, MCP, A+,
    > Network+, i-Net+, CIW Assoc.,
    > CIW Certified Instructor
    >
    > http://yetanotherblog.typepad.com/theclassroom
    >
    >
    >
    > "Need help on MCP certification test"
    > <> wrote in
    > message news::
    >
    > > Good day:
    > > You may want to consider reading all the posts including the posts that
    > > began the discussion and are shown under the title 70-271 Exam about two
    > > threads removed from this one. You have made my original point which is to
    > > say that the NDA does not prohibit general discussions concerning the exams.
    > > The NDA does seek to prohibit revealing the content of specific questions
    > > that are a part of the exam, and to do so is legal in my opinion.
    > >
    > > On the other hand there are some that have attempted to take the position
    > > that the NDA prohibits "discussion" on exam. I have not said that there is
    > > anything illegal in the NDA. However, if one was to reach a wrongful
    > > interpretation, and then seek to inforce the wrongful interpretation in a
    > > court of law, then such a wrongful act would not withstand legal scrutiny.
    > > Bill
    > >
    > > "Spyder" wrote:
    > >
    > > > As far as I read I did not see that any one has argued not being able to
    > > > "generally" discuss exams. That is the purpose of groups like this, to
    > > > "generally" discuss exams and to get help on areas you might be weak on.
    > > >
    > > > As far as your comments about an illegal clause. There is nothing at all
    > > > illegal in the Microsoft NDA. Don't you think that Microsoft can afford some
    > > > of the best attorney's in the states to make sure that the NDA is legal?
    > > >
    > > > The entire purpose of the NDA is for Microsoft to take the best measures
    > > > they can to ensure that no one can cheat and get a certification that they
    > > > did not earn and don't know the subject at hand.
    > > >
    > > > In my opinion, if it matters to anyone. You bringing a discussion like this
    > > > and argueing these points seems childish. If you don't like the NDA or how
    > > > Microsoft handles the exams. Then my advice, join the Apple or Novell crowd
    > > > and leave those of us that want to go after the Microsoft certifications be.
    > > >
    > > > As said before, this is only my opinion and may not matter to anyone else,
    > > > it just irritates me that you are wanting to argue about the NDA when you are
    > > > not forced to agree to it, if it bothers you that much, then don't take the
    > > > exams.
    > > >
    > > > MBrooks
    > > >
    > > > "Need help on MCP certification test" wrote:
    > > >
    > > > > Good day:
    > > > > That which I have written is addressed to 1. the interpretation of the NDA
    > > > > and, 2. the legal principle of not being able to inforce an illegal clause
    > > > > contained in a contract.
    > > > >
    > > > >
    > > > > "Cerebrus" wrote:
    > > > >
    > > > > > On Feb 8, 8:40 am, "John R" <> wrote:
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Free speech, or any other right delegated to you by the constitution, does
    > > > > > > not cover private contractual obligations. By taking the exam, you agree to
    > > > > > > the terms of that exam. That, in essence, is a private agreement between
    > > > > > > you and Microsoft. Microsoft certification is not a right granted to you.
    > > > > > > Microsoft is not forcing you to take the exam, nor is it forcing you to seek
    > > > > > > certification. Your employer might require it of you, but again, nobody is
    > > > > > > forcing you to work for your employer either. You are certainly free to go
    > > > > > > work at McDonalds and not be required to obtain MCSE.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > The classic discussion to free speech is going into a crowded theater and
    > > > > > > yelling "Fire!". You may call it free speech, others call it willfull
    > > > > > > endangerment. And while the Microsoft police may not arrest you, they are
    > > > > > > certainly free to withhold their certifications from anyone they choose to.
    > > > > > > If it is certification at any level that you seek, it is up to you to abide
    > > > > > > by it, if for no other reason than personal integrity. I choose to abide by
    > > > > > > it because I worked hard at earning it, and I respect others that have done
    > > > > > > the same.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > As far as exam times go, it is no secret that you can call a testing center
    > > > > > > and see how much time is alloted for an exam. If the exam center closes at
    > > > > > > 6pm, they will not allow you to schedule a test appointment for 5:45pm.
    > > > > > > Once you have taken an exam or two, you can get a pretty good idea of the
    > > > > > > time any particular exam will take. This does not violate anything in the
    > > > > > > NDA.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > Discussing technical aspects in general does not violate anything either.
    > > > > > > Simply looking at the published objectives should give anyone a pretty good
    > > > > > > idea of what to look for in the exam. After all, you are supposed to be
    > > > > > > smart enough to understand the objectives if you are looking to take an
    > > > > > > exam.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > I don't think Microsoft is trying to "scare" anyone. They simply set the
    > > > > > > rules for their certifications, just as motor vehicle departments set the
    > > > > > > rules for licensing drivers, and the FAA sets the rules for licensing
    > > > > > > pilots, or the FCC sets the rules for licensing broadcasting. If you choose
    > > > > > > to not follow the rules, the corresponding agency is free to pull your
    > > > > > > license (or certification if you will).
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > That's just my take on it.
    > > > > > >
    > > > > > > John-
    > > > > >
    > > > > > That was *very* well said, John. A real pleasure to read.
    > > > > >
    > > > > > ----------
    > > > > > Cerebrus.
    > > > > > MCNGP #LIV (LIVewire ! Please hug !)
    > > > > >
    > > > > > Join the fight against Br@indumps
    > > > > > http://www.certguard.com/forums/
    > > > > >
    > > > > >

    >
    >
     
    Need help on MCP certification test, Feb 8, 2007
    #19
  20. Good day:
    I haven't taken any actions, nor have I attempted to justify anything.
    Simply stated, this thread began as a result of one person attempting to use
    a faulty interpretation of the NDA and then applying the faulty
    interpretation in a sweeping manner to prohibit all discussion, including
    general discussion, of Microsoft exams. Bill

    "Jupiter Jones [MVP]" wrote:

    > I think you need to consult an attorney specializing in these related laws.
    > It seems clear that you are determined to justify your actions based on this
    > newsgroup.
    > Since it appears no one here is a lawyer and you want a legal
    > interpretation, you have come to the wrong place.
    > You attempt to disqualify everything that is said opposing what you want to
    > read and you are failing badly.
    >
    > The bottom lime is you seem to want an easy way out at the expense of those
    > who work hard and value their certifications.
    > At work do you also try to find the easy way out at your employers expense?
    >
    > --
    > Jupiter Jones [MVP]
    > http://www3.telus.net/dandemar
    > http://www.dts-l.org
    >
    >
    > "Need help on MCP certification test"
    > <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    > > Good day:
    > > That which I have written is addressed to 1. the interpretation of the NDA
    > > and, 2. the legal principle of not being able to inforce an illegal clause
    > > contained in a contract.
    > >
    > >
    > > "Cerebrus" wrote:
    > >
    > >> On Feb 8, 8:40 am, "John R" <> wrote:
    > >> >
    > >> > Free speech, or any other right delegated to you by the constitution,
    > >> > does
    > >> > not cover private contractual obligations. By taking the exam, you
    > >> > agree to
    > >> > the terms of that exam. That, in essence, is a private agreement
    > >> > between
    > >> > you and Microsoft. Microsoft certification is not a right granted to
    > >> > you.
    > >> > Microsoft is not forcing you to take the exam, nor is it forcing you to
    > >> > seek
    > >> > certification. Your employer might require it of you, but again,
    > >> > nobody is
    > >> > forcing you to work for your employer either. You are certainly free
    > >> > to go
    > >> > work at McDonalds and not be required to obtain MCSE.
    > >> >
    > >> > The classic discussion to free speech is going into a crowded theater
    > >> > and
    > >> > yelling "Fire!". You may call it free speech, others call it willfull
    > >> > endangerment. And while the Microsoft police may not arrest you, they
    > >> > are
    > >> > certainly free to withhold their certifications from anyone they choose
    > >> > to.
    > >> > If it is certification at any level that you seek, it is up to you to
    > >> > abide
    > >> > by it, if for no other reason than personal integrity. I choose to
    > >> > abide by
    > >> > it because I worked hard at earning it, and I respect others that have
    > >> > done
    > >> > the same.
    > >> >
    > >> > As far as exam times go, it is no secret that you can call a testing
    > >> > center
    > >> > and see how much time is alloted for an exam. If the exam center
    > >> > closes at
    > >> > 6pm, they will not allow you to schedule a test appointment for 5:45pm.
    > >> > Once you have taken an exam or two, you can get a pretty good idea of
    > >> > the
    > >> > time any particular exam will take. This does not violate anything in
    > >> > the
    > >> > NDA.
    > >> >
    > >> > Discussing technical aspects in general does not violate anything
    > >> > either.
    > >> > Simply looking at the published objectives should give anyone a pretty
    > >> > good
    > >> > idea of what to look for in the exam. After all, you are supposed to
    > >> > be
    > >> > smart enough to understand the objectives if you are looking to take an
    > >> > exam.
    > >> >
    > >> > I don't think Microsoft is trying to "scare" anyone. They simply set
    > >> > the
    > >> > rules for their certifications, just as motor vehicle departments set
    > >> > the
    > >> > rules for licensing drivers, and the FAA sets the rules for licensing
    > >> > pilots, or the FCC sets the rules for licensing broadcasting. If you
    > >> > choose
    > >> > to not follow the rules, the corresponding agency is free to pull your
    > >> > license (or certification if you will).
    > >> >
    > >> > That's just my take on it.
    > >> >
    > >> > John-
    > >>
    > >> That was *very* well said, John. A real pleasure to read.
    > >>
    > >> ----------
    > >> Cerebrus.
    > >> MCNGP #LIV (LIVewire ! Please hug !)
    > >>
    > >> Join the fight against Br@indumps
    > >> http://www.certguard.com/forums/
    > >>
    > >>

    >
    >
     
    Need help on MCP certification test, Feb 8, 2007
    #20
    1. Advertising

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