MS Support

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by Peter, Oct 23, 2004.

  1. Peter

    Peter Guest

    Julian Visch wrote:
    > Conclusion I am coming to with my evaluation, MS lack support for their
    > own product,


    They don't have to provide support 'cos they have a monopoly.
    This week, I was talking to a guy at work who wanted to buy a new computer
    to run Linux on. Well, he went round several computer sales stores, and
    none would sell a PC without Windows. One offered to clear Windows off the
    hard disc for him (he still had to pay for the MS licence, though).

    It is possible to buy a PC without paying the Micro$oft tax, but it isn't
    easy and is not practical for most consumers.

    Peter
    Peter, Oct 23, 2004
    #1
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  2. Peter

    Dorado Guest

    Peter wrote:
    > Julian Visch wrote:
    >> Conclusion I am coming to with my evaluation, MS lack support for
    >> their own product,

    >
    > They don't have to provide support 'cos they have a monopoly.
    > This week, I was talking to a guy at work who wanted to buy a new
    > computer to run Linux on. Well, he went round several computer sales
    > stores, and none would sell a PC without Windows. One offered to
    > clear Windows off the hard disc for him (he still had to pay for the
    > MS licence, though).
    >
    > It is possible to buy a PC without paying the Micro$oft tax, but it
    > isn't easy and is not practical for most consumers.
    >
    > Peter

    Go here
    http://www.ascent.co.nz/pcbuild.asp
    You can pick a prebuild configuration or pick your own component and they
    will assemble. No Windows if you don't want it.
    Dorado, Oct 23, 2004
    #2
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  3. Peter

    EMB Guest

    Peter wrote:

    > It is possible to buy a PC without paying the Micro$oft tax, but it isn't
    > easy and is not practical for most consumers.


    Since when was visiting a Dick Smith store impractical??


    --
    EMB
    EMB, Oct 23, 2004
    #3
  4. Peter

    Peter Guest

    EMB wrote:
    > Peter wrote:
    >> It is possible to buy a PC without paying the Micro$oft tax, but it isn't
    >> easy and is not practical for most consumers.

    >
    > Since when was visiting a Dick Smith store impractical??


    No sign of Linux when I was there yesterday, but lots of screens with
    Windos.
    Peter, Oct 23, 2004
    #4
  5. Peter

    Peter Guest

    Dorado wrote:
    > Go here
    > http://www.ascent.co.nz/pcbuild.asp
    > You can pick a prebuild configuration or pick your own component and they
    > will assemble. No Windows if you don't want it.


    I know it is possible and bought my PC sans OS.
    The point is that it is not easy for most consumers, and that most sales
    people deny Linux as an option.
    Peter, Oct 23, 2004
    #5
  6. In article <>,
    Peter <> wrote:

    >It is possible to buy a PC without paying the Micro$oft tax, but it isn't
    >easy and is not practical for most consumers.


    After owning 4 Macs, I bought my first Intel-based box earlier this
    year, and I had no trouble at all setting it up as a Microsoft-free zone
    from the beginning. All I did was walk into Recycled Technology with
    this magazine, point to the picture of the Shuttle XB75G2 box, and say
    "build me a system with this". About a week later the beastie was all
    ready to take home. No Microsoft tax.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, Oct 23, 2004
    #6
  7. Peter

    Gordon Guest

    On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 08:14:42 +1300, Peter wrote:

    > It is possible to buy a PC without paying the Micro$oft tax, but it isn't
    > easy and is not practical for most consumers.


    Which part of the country are you in?

    Here in Christchurch, no problem.
    Gordon, Oct 24, 2004
    #7
  8. Peter

    Gordon Guest

    On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 09:07:52 +1300, Peter wrote:

    > The point is that it is not easy for most consumers, and that most sales
    > people deny Linux as an option.


    Ah well, the great unwashed of the masses eh?
    Gordon, Oct 24, 2004
    #8
  9. Peter

    E. Scrooge Guest

    "Julian Visch" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > Having tried ringing them for support in getting the evaluation copy of
    > windows xp going and getting the response, oh there must be something
    > wrong
    > with the hard drive bring it back to the shop as the solution. After
    > pointing out that there was nothing wrong with the hard drive itself as I
    > previously had linux installed on it, their brilliant solution was search
    > under Linux they would have a solution. So I need to go to their own
    > competition for a limitation in their own software? Ok the competition did
    > have the solution but even still does the MS help desk not have anyone
    > with
    > a clue on what to do when things don't work, if so what is the point of
    > them. I also found it annoying that the first guy I rang insisted that I
    > must be at my computer if I wanted support, pointed out that my computer
    > was at home, not at work, well he said ring us when you are at home, but
    > then your help desk isn't operational. Eventually got from him an email
    > address which I emailed and got no response at all.
    > Conclusion I am coming to with my evaluation, MS lack support for their
    > own
    > product, their product does not install as well as windows 2000 as at
    > least
    > 2000 sees my modem, while brilliant XP tries to connect to the internet to
    > get the latest driver...which one, doesn't say, so lots of guess work
    > required.


    Millions of people have no problem using XP at all. If you wanted XP that
    much you'd buy the full retail version or get a PC that has it.

    Your best bet would be to switch off your computer and see if Cash
    Converters will give your 2 bucks for the thing.

    E. Scrooge
    E. Scrooge, Oct 24, 2004
    #9
  10. In article <> in nz.comp on Sun, 24 Oct
    2004 07:52:47 -0700, Julian Visch <> says...
    > Having tried ringing them for support in getting the evaluation copy of
    > windows xp going and getting the response, oh there must be something wrong
    > with the hard drive bring it back to the shop as the solution. After
    > pointing out that there was nothing wrong with the hard drive itself as I
    > previously had linux installed on it, their brilliant solution was search
    > under Linux they would have a solution. So I need to go to their own
    > competition for a limitation in their own software? Ok the competition did
    > have the solution but even still does the MS help desk not have anyone with
    > a clue on what to do when things don't work, if so what is the point of
    > them. I also found it annoying that the first guy I rang insisted that I
    > must be at my computer if I wanted support, pointed out that my computer
    > was at home, not at work, well he said ring us when you are at home, but
    > then your help desk isn't operational. Eventually got from him an email
    > address which I emailed and got no response at all.
    > Conclusion I am coming to with my evaluation, MS lack support for their own
    > product, their product does not install as well as windows 2000 as at least
    > 2000 sees my modem, while brilliant XP tries to connect to the internet to
    > get the latest driver...which one, doesn't say, so lots of guess work
    > required.


    In this group you have told us how wonderful Linux is and have slagged MS
    ample times. So is this just another anti MS rant?

    Since it is far, far harder to get say Debian working properly on obscure
    hardware, if you cannot get Windows going there must be something
    seriously wrong with your PC or you.
    Patrick Dunford, Oct 24, 2004
    #10
  11. In article <> in nz.comp on Sun, 24 Oct 2004
    09:07:52 +1300, Peter <> says...
    > Dorado wrote:
    > > Go here
    > > http://www.ascent.co.nz/pcbuild.asp
    > > You can pick a prebuild configuration or pick your own component and they
    > > will assemble. No Windows if you don't want it.

    >
    > I know it is possible and bought my PC sans OS.
    > The point is that it is not easy for most consumers, and that most sales
    > people deny Linux as an option.


    They have made a commercial decision to sell particular products. Just
    like the Mac people don't sell Windows PCs.
    Patrick Dunford, Oct 24, 2004
    #11
  12. In article <> in nz.comp on Sun,
    24 Oct 2004 10:15:06 +1300, Lawrence D'Oliveiro <ldo@geek-
    central.gen.new_zealand> says...
    > In article <>,
    > Peter <> wrote:
    >
    > >It is possible to buy a PC without paying the Micro$oft tax, but it isn't
    > >easy and is not practical for most consumers.

    >
    > After owning 4 Macs, I bought my first Intel-based box earlier this
    > year, and I had no trouble at all setting it up as a Microsoft-free zone
    > from the beginning. All I did was walk into Recycled Technology with
    > this magazine, point to the picture of the Shuttle XB75G2 box, and say
    > "build me a system with this". About a week later the beastie was all
    > ready to take home. No Microsoft tax.


    What is this "MS Tax" bulldust?

    There is no such thing, all you are paying for is to buy software that
    you and the seller have agreed to purchase/sell.
    Patrick Dunford, Oct 24, 2004
    #12
  13. Peter

    thing Guest

    Patrick Dunford wrote:
    > In article <> in nz.comp on Sun, 24 Oct
    > 2004 07:52:47 -0700, Julian Visch <> says...
    >
    >>Having tried ringing them for support in getting the evaluation copy of
    >>windows xp going and getting the response, oh there must be something wrong
    >>with the hard drive bring it back to the shop as the solution. After
    >>pointing out that there was nothing wrong with the hard drive itself as I
    >>previously had linux installed on it, their brilliant solution was search
    >>under Linux they would have a solution. So I need to go to their own
    >>competition for a limitation in their own software? Ok the competition did
    >>have the solution but even still does the MS help desk not have anyone with
    >>a clue on what to do when things don't work, if so what is the point of
    >>them. I also found it annoying that the first guy I rang insisted that I
    >>must be at my computer if I wanted support, pointed out that my computer
    >>was at home, not at work, well he said ring us when you are at home, but
    >>then your help desk isn't operational. Eventually got from him an email
    >>address which I emailed and got no response at all.
    >>Conclusion I am coming to with my evaluation, MS lack support for their own
    >>product, their product does not install as well as windows 2000 as at least
    >>2000 sees my modem, while brilliant XP tries to connect to the internet to
    >>get the latest driver...which one, doesn't say, so lots of guess work
    >>required.

    >
    >
    > In this group you have told us how wonderful Linux is and have slagged MS
    > ample times. So is this just another anti MS rant?
    >
    > Since it is far, far harder to get say Debian working properly on obscure
    > hardware, if you cannot get Windows going there must be something
    > seriously wrong with your PC or you.


    Or something wrong with you if you cannot get Debian going.

    I have just rebuilt my PC with win2k and RHAS3, RHAS3 boots and runs,
    win2k spontaneoulsy reboots....

    Eventually I find a bios setting win2k now doesnt like, yet rhas3 boots
    with it....

    I find that Win2k has detected a piece of hardware that needs a new
    driver, but without telling what hardware it is I have no idea what to
    install.

    I find that RHAS3 runs the NIC corrrectly in 100 full duplex, win2k
    seems to vary between 1/2 duplex and full duplex depending on its mood,
    manually locking it in Full and I have no network...This is a re-install
    before the NIC was stable, so with no change in hardware or settings
    win2k responds differently.....

    I have tried getting support for MS before, one the main reasons I
    switched to linux was I got fed up of MS amd MS "trained" people telling
    me I had bad hardware, when in Linux the same machine stayed up for 200+
    days at a time...

    Conclusion, you can be unlucky with either OS, but win2k/XP is still
    less stable and way more vunerable than Linux. It is of course your
    money and time, so spend it as you ses fit.

    regards

    Thing
    thing, Oct 24, 2004
    #13
  14. It seems like Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:33:21 +1300 was when Patrick Dunford
    <> said Blah blah blah...

    >What is this "MS Tax" bulldust?
    >
    >There is no such thing, all you are paying for is to buy software that
    >you and the seller have agreed to purchase/sell.


    http://www.infoanarchy.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/10/23/17629/221

    Which lead Dell to do this

    http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2002Aug/gee20020815015882.htm

    Hey, don't blame me if you don't like the content of the links, I'm
    just the messenger.
    --
    Regards,
    Waylon Kenning.

    1st Year B.I.T. WelTec
    Waylon Kenning, Oct 24, 2004
    #14
  15. Waylon Kenning wrote:
    >>There is no such thing, all you are paying for is to buy software that
    >>you and the seller have agreed to purchase/sell.


    > http://www.infoanarchy.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/10/23/17629/221
    > Which lead Dell to do this
    > http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2002Aug/gee20020815015882.htm
    > Hey, don't blame me if you don't like the content of the links, I'm
    > just the messenger.


    So, it was a good thing that Dell offers machines with no OS for the
    same price as one with windows?

    oh yay... well done that company... I guess they get a bit more margin,
    so thats good for them, but ummm, that makes precisly **** all
    difference to joe average.

    besides that, workstations have been available from dell with no OS for
    long before Aug 2002, my work has some with Redhat on them(customer
    install, nothing on them when shipped) that they got in (nov)2000.

    --
    Dave.net.nz
    reply addy is e
    nice! http://www.dave.net.nz/images/link.jpg
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Oct 24, 2004
    #15
  16. Peter

    Gurble Guest

    On Mon, 25 Oct 2004 00:29:51 +1300, Waylon Kenning
    <> had this to say:

    >It seems like Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:33:21 +1300 was when Patrick Dunford
    ><> said Blah blah blah...
    >
    >>What is this "MS Tax" bulldust?
    >>
    >>There is no such thing, all you are paying for is to buy software that
    >>you and the seller have agreed to purchase/sell.

    >
    >http://www.infoanarchy.org/?op=displaystory;sid=2001/10/23/17629/221
    >
    >Which lead Dell to do this
    >
    >http://www.geek.com/news/geeknews/2002Aug/gee20020815015882.htm
    >
    >Hey, don't blame me if you don't like the content of the links, I'm
    >just the messenger.


    Yep, that was an interesting time.

    From memory, Dell started offering FreeDOS to help corporates get
    around the OS conditions of their volume site license conditions.

    Essentially, corporate/education volume licenses are not as good as
    they seem. Sure, Windows appears to be very cheap, however, if you
    read the fine print, it can only be installed on computers that
    already have operating systems.

    It used to say that they had to include a previous version of
    Microsoft Windows (essentially forcing corporations/educational
    institutes to pay twice - once for the OEM version, then again for the
    upgrade, rather than just using their open license to supply the
    latest version of the OS), but as a result of their antitrust
    "problems", they were forced to change it to "any" operating system.

    Almost immediately, Dell announced that they would start selling their
    corporate-targetted systems with FreeDOS, meaning that corporates
    could use their open licensing agreement to "upgrade" to Windows.

    Microsoft moved to shut this down almost as quickly, and changed the
    conditions again, before Dell had a chance to put them into production
    (and Microsoft lost out on being paid twice).

    They changed the conditions to the following (which is current):

    Customers who wish to acquire the Windows XP Professional Upgrade
    license through the Select License and Open License programs must
    first license a qualifying operating system for their personal
    computer or workstation. The qualifying operating systems are:
    " Windows XP Professional
    " Windows 2000 Professional
    " Windows NT Workstation 4.0 or 3.51
    " Windows 98, Windows 95, Windows Millennium Edition, and
    Windows XP Home Edition
    " Windows 3.x, Windows for Workgroups 3.x
    " IBM OS/2
    " Apple Macintosh
    " UNIX: SCO (Xenix, UnixWare), Hewlett-Packard (HP-UX), IBM
    (AIX, 4680/90), Digital (Ultrix, OSF/1, Digital UNIX), or SGI (IRIX).

    4 Any operating system not listed above is not a qualifying OS,
    for example:
    " Embedded Systems (e.g. Windows 9.x for embedded, Windows XP
    embedded) do not qualify for the Windows XP Professional Upgrade.
    " Linux does not qualify for the Windows XP Professional
    Upgrade.
    " Windows 2000 Terminal Services Client Access License does not
    qualify for the Windows XP Professional Upgrade.

    And, in the meantime Bush had been elected, who, as we all know, is
    very pro-corporates (especially the ones that contributed
    significantly to his campaign fund!), and his administration did not
    pursue Microsoft particularly vigorously for their anticompetitive
    behaviour, meaning that the above still stands.

    Isn't it crazy that you can apply the volume licensing to go from
    Windows 3.11, but not Linux! And that's not anticompetitive because
    ???
    Gurble, Oct 24, 2004
    #16
  17. Peter

    Julian Visch Guest

    Having tried ringing them for support in getting the evaluation copy of
    windows xp going and getting the response, oh there must be something wrong
    with the hard drive bring it back to the shop as the solution. After
    pointing out that there was nothing wrong with the hard drive itself as I
    previously had linux installed on it, their brilliant solution was search
    under Linux they would have a solution. So I need to go to their own
    competition for a limitation in their own software? Ok the competition did
    have the solution but even still does the MS help desk not have anyone with
    a clue on what to do when things don't work, if so what is the point of
    them. I also found it annoying that the first guy I rang insisted that I
    must be at my computer if I wanted support, pointed out that my computer
    was at home, not at work, well he said ring us when you are at home, but
    then your help desk isn't operational. Eventually got from him an email
    address which I emailed and got no response at all.
    Conclusion I am coming to with my evaluation, MS lack support for their own
    product, their product does not install as well as windows 2000 as at least
    2000 sees my modem, while brilliant XP tries to connect to the internet to
    get the latest driver...which one, doesn't say, so lots of guess work
    required.
    Julian Visch, Oct 24, 2004
    #17
  18. It seems like Mon, 25 Oct 2004 01:14:19 +1300 was when "Dave -
    Dave.net.nz" <> said Blah blah blah...

    >So, it was a good thing that Dell offers machines with no OS for the
    >same price as one with windows?

    Meh, neither good nor bad in my books. Just offering what the customer
    wants I guess. Perhaps Dell's just trying to say that Windows wasn't
    worth anything;)

    >oh yay... well done that company... I guess they get a bit more margin,
    >so thats good for them, but ummm, that makes precisly **** all
    >difference to joe average.

    Nope. I'd choose Windows preinstalled for the same price as nothing
    preinstalled any day.
    --
    Regards,
    Waylon Kenning.

    1st Year B.I.T. WelTec
    Waylon Kenning, Oct 24, 2004
    #18
  19. Waylon Kenning wrote:
    >>oh yay... well done that company... I guess they get a bit more margin,
    >>so thats good for them, but ummm, that makes precisly **** all
    >>difference to joe average.


    > Nope. I'd choose Windows preinstalled for the same price as nothing
    > preinstalled any day.


    a big me too for that too...

    anyway, off to install my wireless card in Mandrake correctly this time,
    one wrong option, and I dont know what I did... I thought I followed the
    instructions word for word, but then it was 1am.

    new drivers, new card, and we're off and racing, well, it atleast shows
    link now.

    --
    Dave.net.nz
    reply addy is e
    nice! http://www.dave.net.nz/images/link.jpg
    Dave - Dave.net.nz, Oct 24, 2004
    #19
  20. Peter

    Enkidu Guest

    On Sun, 24 Oct 2004 20:31:14 +1300, Patrick Dunford
    <> wrote:
    >
    >Since it is far, far harder to get say Debian working properly on obscure
    >hardware, if you cannot get Windows going there must be something
    >seriously wrong with your PC or you.
    >

    In my experience it is a lot easier to get a server up and running
    using Debian Linux than to get a Windows Server up and runnign to the
    same sort of level..

    Cheers,

    Cliff
    Enkidu, Oct 24, 2004
    #20
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