Mirrorless camera sales continue to gain ground ...

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by Bruce, Mar 22, 2012.

  1. Bruce

    Bruce Guest

    .... and gain market share in Europe and the USA.

    Figures for the whole of 2011 showed mirrorless cameras gaining 42% of
    the Japanese market for interchangeable-lens cameras with DSLRs taking
    58%. Meanwhile, in Europe, mirrorless took 17% (although the UK
    market share was significantly higher) and in N America, only 13%.

    Interim figures for the first two months of 2012 show that, in Japan,
    sales of mirrorless cameras have breached the 50% barrier and are
    outselling DSLRs for the first time. Mirrorless market share has also
    exceeded 30% in the UK and 20% in the USA.

    <http://www.43rumors.com/new-pene-5-firmware-update-and-ukjapan-shares-unveiled/>
    <http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/compact-system-cameras-have-30-share-in-uk-1064770>
     
    Bruce, Mar 22, 2012
    #1
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  2. "Bruce" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > ... and gain market share in Europe and the USA.
    >
    > Figures for the whole of 2011 showed mirrorless cameras gaining 42% of
    > the Japanese market for interchangeable-lens cameras with DSLRs taking
    > 58%. Meanwhile, in Europe, mirrorless took 17% (although the UK
    > market share was significantly higher) and in N America, only 13%.
    >
    > Interim figures for the first two months of 2012 show that, in Japan,
    > sales of mirrorless cameras have breached the 50% barrier and are
    > outselling DSLRs for the first time. Mirrorless market share has also
    > exceeded 30% in the UK and 20% in the USA.
    >
    > <http://www.43rumors.com/new-pene-5-firmware-update-and-ukjapan-shares-unveiled/>
    > <http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/compact-system-cameras-have-30-share-in-uk-1064770>


    I remain disappointed that Nikon don't have an offering in this range
    which takes their existing lenses without adapters, but perhaps there
    wouldn't be a great reduction in size? How well are their offerings
    selling compared to other brands?
     
    David J Taylor, Mar 22, 2012
    #2
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  3. Bruce

    RichA Guest

    On Mar 22, 7:28 am, Bruce <> wrote:
    > ... and gain market share in Europe and the USA.
    >
    > Figures for the whole of 2011 showed mirrorless cameras gaining 42% of
    > the Japanese market for interchangeable-lens cameras with DSLRs taking
    > 58%.  Meanwhile, in Europe, mirrorless took 17% (although the UK
    > market share was significantly higher) and in N America, only 13%.
    >
    > Interim figures for the first two months of 2012 show that, in Japan,
    > sales of mirrorless cameras have breached the 50% barrier and are
    > outselling DSLRs for the first time.  Mirrorless market share has also
    > exceeded 30% in the UK and 20% in the USA.
    >
    > <http://www.43rumors.com/new-pene-5-firmware-update-and-ukjapan-shares...>
    > <http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/compa...>


    And yet both Nikon and Canon have fumbled the ball here. Nikon,
    because of it's relatively poor offerings with small sensors, Canon
    without any offering at all, save a P&S with a larger sensor.
    Canon still has a chance, but Nikon has stated they don't intend to
    release a larger-sensor mirror-less. With the Nikon, you'd have to be
    hard-pressed to justify using a V1 over a D5100 which costs only
    2/3rds as much or a D3100 which costs 1/2 as much as the V1.
     
    RichA, Mar 22, 2012
    #3
  4. Bruce

    Bruce Guest

    "David J Taylor" <> wrote:
    >"Bruce" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >> ... and gain market share in Europe and the USA.
    >>
    >> Figures for the whole of 2011 showed mirrorless cameras gaining 42% of
    >> the Japanese market for interchangeable-lens cameras with DSLRs taking
    >> 58%. Meanwhile, in Europe, mirrorless took 17% (although the UK
    >> market share was significantly higher) and in N America, only 13%.
    >>
    >> Interim figures for the first two months of 2012 show that, in Japan,
    >> sales of mirrorless cameras have breached the 50% barrier and are
    >> outselling DSLRs for the first time. Mirrorless market share has also
    >> exceeded 30% in the UK and 20% in the USA.
    >>
    >> <http://www.43rumors.com/new-pene-5-firmware-update-and-ukjapan-shares-unveiled/>
    >> <http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/compact-system-cameras-have-30-share-in-uk-1064770>

    >
    >I remain disappointed that Nikon don't have an offering in this range
    >which takes their existing lenses without adapters, but perhaps there
    >wouldn't be a great reduction in size? How well are their offerings
    >selling compared to other brands?



    The Nikon 1 System is not easy to sell. It is very expensive for what
    it is and, sadly, it lacks a Unique Selling Point.

    Sony's NEX bodies are easy to sell but the lack of decent lenses is a
    major handicap. There is the very expensive Carl Zeiss 24mm f/1.8,
    which is excellent, but nothing else compares with it for optical
    quality.

    Sony's severe financial problems mean that their digital camera lines
    have been starved of investment and it will probably be several years
    before a good range of NEX lenses will be offered. Meanwhile, Sony is
    still flogging the dead horse that goes by the name of Alpha. Sales
    are negligible and no-one makes any money out of it but Alpha soldiers
    on. God alone knows why. Perhaps Sony feels the need for a flagship,
    but no-one agrees.

    Samsung sales have dropped significantly since 2011 because, as with
    the Nikon 1 System, there is no USP. I cannot think of any reason to
    recommend Samsung over other brands. Customers appear to agree.

    The Pentax Q System is an enigma. It is tiny and exquisitely made,
    but the results from the sensor are a joke; it is no larger than the
    sensors in p+s digicams.

    The new Pentax K-01 is an unknown quantity. It is large and the weird
    styling makes it look even bigger than it already is. But it handles
    well, accepts almost every Pentax lens ever made and delivers top
    quality images, so who knows? It might be a success. <shrug>

    Micro Four Thirds is a strong seller but there are big differences
    between Olympus and Panasonic buyers.

    Many Olympus m4/3 buyers have come from the OM system and use one or
    more OM lenses on their PEN cameras. Others have come from Four
    Thirds and use one or more Zuiko Digital lenses. The result is that
    camera bodies sell well but lenses less so. We make much more money
    on lenses than cameras, so we would prefer to sell more lenses.

    Panasonic has no long history of camera making so LUMIX G buyers come
    from a wider spectrum. The LUMIX lens range is outstanding but the
    camera range is confusing to new buyers moving up from p+s and the
    variety of non-traditional user interfaces is often not liked by
    people moving across from DSLRs (I like what my LUMIX G3 can do but I
    don't like the user interface at all).

    We treat PEN and LUMIX as two very different product ranges that
    appeal to two distinctly different markets. Neither Sony nor Olympus
    seems to emphasise the compatibility of their cameras with the other's
    lenses, so when we tell people that they can use LUMIX lenses on their
    PEN, or vice versa, they are often surprised.

    Fujifilm's X-Pro1 will soon be available and Leica and Canon's
    mirrorless offerings are expected later in the year. We have an
    invitation to a major Leica event on May 10 and this could be the
    announcement of their mirrorless system. On the other hand, it might
    be the announcement of the new M10 - it is M(ay)10 after all. ;-)

    Canon is likely to wait until later in the year before announcing its
    mirrorless system, possibly at Photokina in September. With the
    benefit of several years watching the mirrorless market develop, it is
    probably going to be a very polished product and it is likely to hit
    all the other manufacturers very hard indeed. I predict that Nikon
    will be hit harder than most.
     
    Bruce, Mar 22, 2012
    #4
  5. Bruce

    Bruce Guest

    RichA <> wrote:

    >And yet both Nikon and Canon have fumbled the ball here. Nikon,
    >because of it's relatively poor offerings with small sensors, Canon
    >without any offering at all



    It is on the way, Rich. I'm guessing that it will be announced in
    September at Photokina.
     
    Bruce, Mar 22, 2012
    #5
  6. Bruce

    Bruce Guest

    RichA <> wrote:
    >With the Nikon, you'd have to be
    >hard-pressed to justify using a V1 over a D5100 which costs only
    >2/3rds as much or a D3100 which costs 1/2 as much as the V1.



    Nikon 1 System sales are slow. Deep discounts are available in
    Europe, and this has also been enhanced with a cashback offer which I
    think is unprecedented for such a new product.
     
    Bruce, Mar 22, 2012
    #6
  7. "Bruce" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    []
    > Canon is likely to wait until later in the year before announcing its
    > mirrorless system, possibly at Photokina in September. With the
    > benefit of several years watching the mirrorless market develop, it is
    > probably going to be a very polished product and it is likely to hit
    > all the other manufacturers very hard indeed. I predict that Nikon
    > will be hit harder than most.


    ... unless Nikon were to introduce something new themselves, which I see as
    most unlikely. Thanks for your summary of other CSCs as well.

    David
     
    David J Taylor, Mar 22, 2012
    #7
  8. "David J Taylor" <> writes:

    > "Bruce" <> wrote in message
    > news:...
    >> ... and gain market share in Europe and the USA.
    >>
    >> Figures for the whole of 2011 showed mirrorless cameras gaining 42% of
    >> the Japanese market for interchangeable-lens cameras with DSLRs taking
    >> 58%. Meanwhile, in Europe, mirrorless took 17% (although the UK
    >> market share was significantly higher) and in N America, only 13%.
    >>
    >> Interim figures for the first two months of 2012 show that, in Japan,
    >> sales of mirrorless cameras have breached the 50% barrier and are
    >> outselling DSLRs for the first time. Mirrorless market share has also
    >> exceeded 30% in the UK and 20% in the USA.
    >>
    >> <http://www.43rumors.com/new-pene-5-firmware-update-and-ukjapan-shares-unveiled/>
    >> <http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/compact-system-cameras-have-30-share-in-uk-1064770>

    >
    > I remain disappointed that Nikon don't have an offering in this range
    > which takes their existing lenses without adapters, but perhaps there
    > wouldn't be a great reduction in size?


    The flange distance, the distance from the back of the lens to the
    sensor/film, is a key lens mount design feature. To use F-mount lenses,
    you need to hold them at the right distance from the sensor. Either the
    body has to be that thick itself, or there has to be an adapter in
    between.

    I'd suggest that the goal should not be "no adapter", but rather "fully
    functional" -- all auto-focus and auto-exposure features should work.
    At that point, is the adapter actually a significant problem?

    The Nikon adapter for F-mount lenses on the Nikon 1 does support AF,
    though only on the center sensor, and does support all exposure modes I
    believe; so not TOO bad, better than most.

    > How well are their offerings selling compared to other brands?


    I doubt anybody here actually knows, overall (across countries and
    such).
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/
    Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
    Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
    Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Mar 22, 2012
    #8
  9. "David Dyer-Bennet" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    []
    > The flange distance, the distance from the back of the lens to the
    > sensor/film, is a key lens mount design feature. To use F-mount lenses,
    > you need to hold them at the right distance from the sensor. Either the
    > body has to be that thick itself, or there has to be an adapter in
    > between.
    >
    > I'd suggest that the goal should not be "no adapter", but rather "fully
    > functional" -- all auto-focus and auto-exposure features should work.
    > At that point, is the adapter actually a significant problem?
    >
    > The Nikon adapter for F-mount lenses on the Nikon 1 does support AF,
    > though only on the center sensor, and does support all exposure modes I
    > believe; so not TOO bad, better than most.
    >
    >> How well are their offerings selling compared to other brands?

    >
    > I doubt anybody here actually knows, overall (across countries and
    > such).
    > --
    > David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/


    There still could be /some/ advantage in a mirror-less body, even if it
    ends up being the same size as the DSLR. Not many advantages, though.
    But as Nikon won't sell new lenses if the body has an F (DX) mount, so I'm
    not holding my breath. The smaller sensor in the Nikon-1 does really call
    for new lenses, particularly wide-angle. I feel that an adapter is a
    compromise, at best.

    Cheers,
    David
     
    David J Taylor, Mar 22, 2012
    #9
  10. Bruce

    RichA Guest

    On Mar 22, 8:23 am, Bruce <> wrote:
    > RichA <> wrote:
    > >With the Nikon, you'd have to be
    > >hard-pressed to justify using a V1 over a D5100 which costs only
    > >2/3rds as much or a D3100 which costs 1/2 as much as the V1.

    >
    > Nikon 1 System sales are slow.  Deep discounts are available in
    > Europe, and this has also been enhanced with a cashback offer which I
    > think is unprecedented for such a new product.


    Especially from them. It's a like the Pentax Q here.
     
    RichA, Mar 22, 2012
    #10
  11. Bruce

    RichA Guest

    On Mar 22, 8:21 am, Bruce <> wrote:
    > RichA <> wrote:
    > >And yet both Nikon and Canon have fumbled the ball here.  Nikon,
    > >because of it's relatively poor offerings with small sensors, Canon
    > >without any offering at all

    >
    > It is on the way, Rich.  I'm guessing that it will be announced in
    > September at Photokina.


    At least they have a good core to start with, the sensor from the
    G1X.
     
    RichA, Mar 22, 2012
    #11
  12. Bruce

    Bruce Guest

    RichA <> wrote:

    >On Mar 22, 8:21 am, Bruce <> wrote:
    >> RichA <> wrote:
    >> >And yet both Nikon and Canon have fumbled the ball here.  Nikon,
    >> >because of it's relatively poor offerings with small sensors, Canon
    >> >without any offering at all

    >>
    >> It is on the way, Rich.  I'm guessing that it will be announced in
    >> September at Photokina.

    >
    >At least they have a good core to start with, the sensor from the
    >G1X.



    True, but I won't assume that the G1X is the basis of the new system
    until I know a lot more than I do now. All I know is, a Canon
    mirrorless system is on the way.

    With mirrorless cameras now taking more than 50% of the Japanese
    market, Canon can no longer do nothing.
     
    Bruce, Mar 22, 2012
    #12
  13. Bruce

    Bruce Guest

    RichA <> wrote:
    >On Mar 22, 8:23 am, Bruce <> wrote:
    >> RichA <> wrote:
    >> >With the Nikon, you'd have to be
    >> >hard-pressed to justify using a V1 over a D5100 which costs only
    >> >2/3rds as much or a D3100 which costs 1/2 as much as the V1.

    >>
    >> Nikon 1 System sales are slow.  Deep discounts are available in
    >> Europe, and this has also been enhanced with a cashback offer which I
    >> think is unprecedented for such a new product.

    >
    >Especially from them. It's a like the Pentax Q here.



    I wish I could state the price we are being asked for Pentax Q kits.

    It is *extremely* low.
     
    Bruce, Mar 22, 2012
    #13
  14. Bruce

    RichA Guest

    On Mar 23, 1:30 pm, Bowser <> wrote:
    > On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:24:25 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    >
    > >"David J Taylor" <> writes:

    >
    > >> "Bruce" <> wrote in message
    > >>news:...
    > >>> ... and gain market share in Europe and the USA.

    >
    > >>> Figures for the whole of 2011 showed mirrorless cameras gaining 42% of
    > >>> the Japanese market for interchangeable-lens cameras with DSLRs taking
    > >>> 58%.  Meanwhile, in Europe, mirrorless took 17% (although the UK
    > >>> market share was significantly higher) and in N America, only 13%.

    >
    > >>> Interim figures for the first two months of 2012 show that, in Japan,
    > >>> sales of mirrorless cameras have breached the 50% barrier and are
    > >>> outselling DSLRs for the first time.  Mirrorless market share has also
    > >>> exceeded 30% in the UK and 20% in the USA.

    >
    > >>> <http://www.43rumors.com/new-pene-5-firmware-update-and-ukjapan-shares...>
    > >>> <http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/compa...>

    >
    > >> I remain disappointed that Nikon don't have an offering in this range
    > >> which takes their existing lenses without adapters, but perhaps there
    > >> wouldn't be a great reduction in size?

    >
    > >The flange distance, the distance from the back of the lens to the
    > >sensor/film, is a key lens mount design feature.  To use F-mount lenses,
    > >you need to hold them at the right distance from the sensor.  Either the
    > >body has to be that thick itself, or there has to be an adapter in
    > >between.

    >
    > >I'd suggest that the goal should not be "no adapter", but rather "fully
    > >functional" -- all auto-focus and auto-exposure features should work.
    > >At that point, is the adapter actually a significant problem?

    >
    > No, but glacial AF would be a big problem. Nobody has successfully
    > created a mirrorless camera that can use legacy lenses with fast CDAF.


    Static-subject focusing is very fast on the better ones, it's the
    follow-focusing that's not up to DSLR speed and by that I mean
    Nikon's, D300s or better using the best lenses like the 70-200mm
    f2.8. The lower-end DSLR's are a horror to focus with because of the
    hunting with cheap lenses.
     
    RichA, Mar 23, 2012
    #14
  15. Bruce

    Bruce Guest

    Bowser <> wrote:
    >On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 13:19:24 +0000, Bruce <>
    >wrote:
    >>Canon is likely to wait until later in the year before announcing its
    >>mirrorless system, possibly at Photokina in September. With the
    >>benefit of several years watching the mirrorless market develop, it is
    >>probably going to be a very polished product and it is likely to hit
    >>all the other manufacturers very hard indeed. I predict that Nikon
    >>will be hit harder than most.

    >
    >
    >I hope Cano doesn't make the same huge mistake Nikon did with the 1
    >series cams and cripple it so it won't canibalize their SLR sales. The
    >1 system could have been a contender...



    I doubt very much that Canon would be so stupid. I fully understand
    what Nikon was trying to do, but it failed, with mirrorless CSCs now
    outselling DSLRs in Japan and making significant gains in market share
    elsewhere. So even if Nikon's mirrorless CSCs haven't damaged sales
    of Nikon's entry-level DSLRs, other companies' CSCs have.

    Nikon must be hoping that upgrades of its D3100 and D5100 will provide
    a sales uplift. I doubt that will be enough in Japan and Europe. The
    North American market is different, however, and I don't profess to
    understand why mirrorless CSCs have a much lower market share there.

    Perhaps the Olympus OM-D E-M5 will be the mirrorless CSC that makes
    the difference. I understand that pre-orders for the E-M5 in the USA
    have been extremely strong.
     
    Bruce, Mar 23, 2012
    #15
  16. Bowser <> writes:

    > On Thu, 22 Mar 2012 09:24:25 -0500, David Dyer-Bennet <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>"David J Taylor" <> writes:
    >>
    >>> "Bruce" <> wrote in message
    >>> news:...
    >>>> ... and gain market share in Europe and the USA.
    >>>>
    >>>> Figures for the whole of 2011 showed mirrorless cameras gaining 42% of
    >>>> the Japanese market for interchangeable-lens cameras with DSLRs taking
    >>>> 58%. Meanwhile, in Europe, mirrorless took 17% (although the UK
    >>>> market share was significantly higher) and in N America, only 13%.
    >>>>
    >>>> Interim figures for the first two months of 2012 show that, in Japan,
    >>>> sales of mirrorless cameras have breached the 50% barrier and are
    >>>> outselling DSLRs for the first time. Mirrorless market share has also
    >>>> exceeded 30% in the UK and 20% in the USA.
    >>>>
    >>>> <http://www.43rumors.com/new-pene-5-firmware-update-and-ukjapan-shares-unveiled/>
    >>>> <http://www.techradar.com/news/photography-video-capture/cameras/compact-system-cameras-have-30-share-in-uk-1064770>
    >>>
    >>> I remain disappointed that Nikon don't have an offering in this range
    >>> which takes their existing lenses without adapters, but perhaps there
    >>> wouldn't be a great reduction in size?

    >>
    >>The flange distance, the distance from the back of the lens to the
    >>sensor/film, is a key lens mount design feature. To use F-mount lenses,
    >>you need to hold them at the right distance from the sensor. Either the
    >>body has to be that thick itself, or there has to be an adapter in
    >>between.
    >>
    >>I'd suggest that the goal should not be "no adapter", but rather "fully
    >>functional" -- all auto-focus and auto-exposure features should work.
    >>At that point, is the adapter actually a significant problem?

    >
    > No, but glacial AF would be a big problem. Nobody has successfully
    > created a mirrorless camera that can use legacy lenses with fast CDAF.


    The Nikon 1 is allegedly very fast, according to people who have them.

    > I know then can jury-rig some sort of PDAF system, but why? The m4/3
    > cams have very fast CDAF.


    I suppose you can say they do, but onlyh in the sense that it's fast
    "contrast-detection autofocus". The focus on my EPL-2 is *glacial*
    compared to focus on my D700. (And some are allegedly considerably
    faster than my EPL-2; however, as I read reports, they're competitive
    with entry-level DSLRs, NOT competitive with prosumer or full-bore pro
    equipment.

    > There is no need to micro-adjust since the AF comes right off the
    > sensor, and the AF system can be made very flexible.


    Yes, that's very handy. I now make sure to do all lens-testing focus
    that way for example.

    > Designing a mirrorless system that's crippled because they want to use
    > a legacy lens line doesn't make sense.


    Hard to say; a lot of the value of the Nikon system is the legacy lens
    line.
    --
    David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/
    Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
    Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
    Dragaera: http://dragaera.info
     
    David Dyer-Bennet, Mar 23, 2012
    #16
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