Microsoft Office and ooxml (.docx)

Discussion in 'NZ Computing' started by peterwn, May 26, 2007.

  1. peterwn

    peterwn Guest

    Out of interest how many people so far have received .docx files (and
    the eqivalents for other Office 2007 components). If so who has:
    1. Ignored them as being unable to read them.
    2. Asked the sender to re-send in .odf, .pdf or .rtf etc
    3. Downloaded the new 'filters' to read them with older Office software
    (especially those who have installed 'security' updates which slip in
    mechanisms to facilitate this).
    4. Gone out and bought Office 2007
    peterwn, May 26, 2007
    #1
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  2. peterwn

    Will Spencer Guest

    On Sat, 26 May 2007 13:23:44 +1200, peterwn wrote:

    > Out of interest how many people so far have received .docx files (and
    > the eqivalents for other Office 2007 components). If so who has:
    > 1. Ignored them as being unable to read them.
    > 2. Asked the sender to re-send in .odf, .pdf or .rtf etc
    > 3. Downloaded the new 'filters' to read them with older Office software
    > (especially those who have installed 'security' updates which slip in
    > mechanisms to facilitate this).
    > 4. Gone out and bought Office 2007


    I use Office 2007 but I usually distribute the docs as PDF or RTF unless
    otherwise asked, but normally I can please everybody as it has a lot of
    'save as' format options which I find handy. I wouldn't send a doc as .docx
    format unless specifically asked.

    -ws
    Will Spencer, May 26, 2007
    #2
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  3. On Sat, 26 May 2007 13:42:55 +1200, Will Spencer wrote:

    > I use Office 2007 but I usually distribute the docs as PDF or RTF unless
    > otherwise asked, but normally I can please everybody as it has a lot of
    > 'save as' format options which I find handy. I wouldn't send a doc as
    > .docx format unless specifically asked.


    Can you save your MS Office documents in the ISO standard OpenDocument file
    format?


    --
    Jonathan Walker

    "You'll have to excuse me — I have a long
    bath and a short dress to get into."
    Jonathan Walker, May 26, 2007
    #3
  4. peterwn

    Matty F Guest

    On May 26, 1:23 pm, peterwn <> wrote:
    > Out of interest how many people so far have received .docx files (and
    > the eqivalents for other Office 2007 components). If so who has:
    > 1. Ignored them as being unable to read them.
    > 2. Asked the sender to re-send in .odf, .pdf or .rtf etc
    > 3. Downloaded the new 'filters' to read them with older Office software
    > (especially those who have installed 'security' updates which slip in
    > mechanisms to facilitate this).
    > 4. Gone out and bought Office 2007


    5, Get the sender to save them as Word 97 - 2000 format in the first
    place. Then almost anybody can read them. For distributed documents it
    is unlikely that any features are being used that Word 2000 does not
    have.
    Matty F, May 26, 2007
    #4
  5. peterwn

    peterwn Guest

    Jonathan Walker wrote:
    > On Sat, 26 May 2007 13:42:55 +1200, Will Spencer wrote:
    >
    >> I use Office 2007 but I usually distribute the docs as PDF or RTF unless
    >> otherwise asked, but normally I can please everybody as it has a lot of
    >> 'save as' format options which I find handy. I wouldn't send a doc as
    >> .docx format unless specifically asked.

    >
    > Can you save your MS Office documents in the ISO standard OpenDocument file
    > format?
    >
    >

    Yes, sort of. You apparently cannot start a new document and save it
    straight into .odf however. The 'trial' version of Office 2007 that is
    pre-loaded onto new computers apparently can save in .docx only.

    See:

    http://www.groklaw.net/article.php?story=20070525100251798

    for a description of the implications.
    peterwn, May 26, 2007
    #5
  6. On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:17:42 +1200, peterwn wrote:

    >> Can you save your MS Office documents in the ISO standard OpenDocument
    >> file format?

    >
    > Yes, sort of. You apparently cannot start a new document and save it
    > straight into .odf however.


    Why not?

    If you can open an existing document and then save it as an ODT why,
    therefore, can't M$ Word 2007 save a new document as an ODT file?


    --
    Jonathan Walker

    "You'll have to excuse me — I have a long
    bath and a short dress to get into."
    Jonathan Walker, May 26, 2007
    #6
  7. peterwn

    peterwn Guest

    Jonathan Walker wrote:
    > On Sat, 26 May 2007 18:17:42 +1200, peterwn wrote:
    >
    >>> Can you save your MS Office documents in the ISO standard OpenDocument
    >>> file format?

    >> Yes, sort of. You apparently cannot start a new document and save it
    >> straight into .odf however.

    >
    > Why not?
    >
    > If you can open an existing document and then save it as an ODT why,
    > therefore, can't M$ Word 2007 save a new document as an ODT file?
    >
    >

    I do not know, that is a question you would have to ask Microsoft.

    Possibly for the same reason that Telecom do not offer a service to lift
    toll barring on a call by call basis on residential phones (you have to
    toggle toll barring off, make the call then reinstate the toll barring).
    This IMO is done for marketing reasons.
    peterwn, May 26, 2007
    #7
  8. peterwn

    Fred Dagg Guest

    On 26 May 2007 14:13:40 +1200, Jonathan Walker <>
    exclaimed:

    >On Sat, 26 May 2007 13:42:55 +1200, Will Spencer wrote:
    >
    >> I use Office 2007 but I usually distribute the docs as PDF or RTF unless
    >> otherwise asked, but normally I can please everybody as it has a lot of
    >> 'save as' format options which I find handy. I wouldn't send a doc as
    >> .docx format unless specifically asked.

    >
    >Can you save your MS Office documents in the ISO standard OpenDocument file
    >format?


    Microsoft's OOXML is an open standard as well.

    Can OpenOffice.org save in the Ecma standard (and soon to be ISO
    standard) OOXML format?
    Fred Dagg, May 26, 2007
    #8
  9. On Sat, 26 May 2007 21:32:05 +1200, peterwn wrote:

    > This IMO is done for marketing reasons.


    I think you hit it on the head there.

    M$ is doing everything in its power to prevent the Open Document file
    format from being used.


    --
    Jonathan Walker

    "You'll have to excuse me — I have a long
    bath and a short dress to get into."
    Jonathan Walker, May 26, 2007
    #9
  10. peterwn

    peterwn Guest

    Fred Dagg wrote:
    > On 26 May 2007 14:13:40 +1200, Jonathan Walker <>
    > exclaimed:
    >
    >> On Sat, 26 May 2007 13:42:55 +1200, Will Spencer wrote:
    >>
    >>> I use Office 2007 but I usually distribute the docs as PDF or RTF unless
    >>> otherwise asked, but normally I can please everybody as it has a lot of
    >>> 'save as' format options which I find handy. I wouldn't send a doc as
    >>> .docx format unless specifically asked.

    >> Can you save your MS Office documents in the ISO standard OpenDocument file
    >> format?

    >
    > Microsoft's OOXML is an open standard as well.


    Partially open, but not yet a standard

    >
    > Can OpenOffice.org save in the Ecma standard (and soon to be ISO
    > standard) OOXML format?


    There is 6000 pages of 'standard' (compared with 600 pages for ODF which
    is now an ISO standard) for some poor sod to try and come to grips with,
    then it makes reference to various Microsoft things that are not
    included in the 'standard'.

    AFAIK it does not meet the usual requirements and form one would expect
    of a well conditioned standard. If a standard in similar form for
    widgets was submitted to ISO it would need substantial modification at
    least to gain acceptance, and the typical widget maker does not try
    pulling political levers all round the world to try and force a
    deficient standard through ISO - which is exactly what Microsoft is
    doing at the moment with OOXML.
    peterwn, May 26, 2007
    #10
  11. peterwn

    Fred Dagg Guest

    On Sat, 26 May 2007 22:13:14 +1200, peterwn <>
    exclaimed:

    >Fred Dagg wrote:
    >> On 26 May 2007 14:13:40 +1200, Jonathan Walker <>
    >> exclaimed:
    >>
    >>> On Sat, 26 May 2007 13:42:55 +1200, Will Spencer wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> I use Office 2007 but I usually distribute the docs as PDF or RTF unless
    >>>> otherwise asked, but normally I can please everybody as it has a lot of
    >>>> 'save as' format options which I find handy. I wouldn't send a doc as
    >>>> .docx format unless specifically asked.
    >>> Can you save your MS Office documents in the ISO standard OpenDocument file
    >>> format?

    >>
    >> Microsoft's OOXML is an open standard as well.

    >
    >Partially open, but not yet a standard


    It is an Ecma Standard, therefore it is a standard.

    >>
    >> Can OpenOffice.org save in the Ecma standard (and soon to be ISO
    >> standard) OOXML format?

    >
    >There is 6000 pages of 'standard' (compared with 600 pages for ODF which
    >is now an ISO standard) for some poor sod to try and come to grips with,
    >then it makes reference to various Microsoft things that are not
    >included in the 'standard'.


    So it's a complex standard. There are plenty of other standards that
    are long and/or complex.

    >AFAIK it does not meet the usual requirements and form one would expect
    >of a well conditioned standard. If a standard in similar form for
    >widgets was submitted to ISO it would need substantial modification at
    >least to gain acceptance, and the typical widget maker does not try
    >pulling political levers all round the world to try and force a
    >deficient standard through ISO - which is exactly what Microsoft is
    >doing at the moment with OOXML.


    It has been submitted to ISO, and some countries have temporarily
    blocked it for political reasons. However from what I can see it meets
    all the criteria, and it's only a matter of time.
    Fred Dagg, May 26, 2007
    #11
  12. Fred Dagg wrote:
    > On Sat, 26 May 2007 22:13:14 +1200, peterwn <>
    > exclaimed:
    >> Fred Dagg wrote:
    >>> On 26 May 2007 14:13:40 +1200, Jonathan Walker <>
    >>> exclaimed:
    >>>> On Sat, 26 May 2007 13:42:55 +1200, Will Spencer wrote:
    >>>>> I use Office 2007 but I usually distribute the docs as PDF or RTF unless
    >>>>> otherwise asked, but normally I can please everybody as it has a lot of
    >>>>> 'save as' format options which I find handy. I wouldn't send a doc as
    >>>>> .docx format unless specifically asked.
    >>>> Can you save your MS Office documents in the ISO standard OpenDocument file
    >>>> format?
    >>> Microsoft's OOXML is an open standard as well.

    >> Partially open, but not yet a standard

    >
    > It is an Ecma Standard, therefore it is a standard.


    Perhaps the Acme Sausage Factory should sue them.
    Mark Robinson, May 26, 2007
    #12
  13. peterwn

    Will Spencer Guest

    On 26 May 2007 14:13:40 +1200, Jonathan Walker wrote:

    > On Sat, 26 May 2007 13:42:55 +1200, Will Spencer wrote:
    >
    >> I use Office 2007 but I usually distribute the docs as PDF or RTF unless
    >> otherwise asked, but normally I can please everybody as it has a lot of
    >> 'save as' format options which I find handy. I wouldn't send a doc as
    >> .docx format unless specifically asked.

    >
    > Can you save your MS Office documents in the ISO standard OpenDocument file
    > format?


    Don't know don't care, nobody has ever asked for it. Don't think they ever
    will either.

    -ws
    Will Spencer, May 26, 2007
    #13
  14. peterwn

    Fred Dagg Guest

    On Sat, 26 May 2007 22:48:04 +1200, Mark Robinson
    <2tod.net> exclaimed:

    >Fred Dagg wrote:
    >> On Sat, 26 May 2007 22:13:14 +1200, peterwn <>
    >> exclaimed:
    >>> Fred Dagg wrote:
    >>>> On 26 May 2007 14:13:40 +1200, Jonathan Walker <>
    >>>> exclaimed:
    >>>>> On Sat, 26 May 2007 13:42:55 +1200, Will Spencer wrote:
    >>>>>> I use Office 2007 but I usually distribute the docs as PDF or RTF unless
    >>>>>> otherwise asked, but normally I can please everybody as it has a lot of
    >>>>>> 'save as' format options which I find handy. I wouldn't send a doc as
    >>>>>> .docx format unless specifically asked.
    >>>>> Can you save your MS Office documents in the ISO standard OpenDocument file
    >>>>> format?
    >>>> Microsoft's OOXML is an open standard as well.
    >>> Partially open, but not yet a standard

    >>
    >> It is an Ecma Standard, therefore it is a standard.

    >
    >Perhaps the Acme Sausage Factory should sue them.


    Ecma is the European standards organisation. Considering they're the
    ones that produced the standard for C++ and C#, they are not exactly a
    2-bit outfit.
    Fred Dagg, May 26, 2007
    #14
  15. peterwn

    peterwn Guest

    Fred Dagg wrote:
    > On Sat, 26 May 2007 22:48:04 +1200, Mark Robinson
    >
    > Ecma is the European standards organisation. Considering they're the
    > ones that produced the standard for C++ and C#, they are not exactly a
    > 2-bit outfit.


    ECMA IMO is more a manufacturers lobby group than an impartial standards
    outfit. Microsoft invests heavily in it and of course expects a return
    on its investment.

    AFAIK, C# is a Microsoft-centric language, not one accepted for general
    use, apart from applications that interface with Windows.

    Although one could argue that FORTRAN was created by IBM it took on a
    life well beyond the confines of IBM.
    peterwn, May 26, 2007
    #15
  16. peterwn

    peterwn Guest

    Will Spencer wrote:
    > On 26 May 2007 14:13:40 +1200, Jonathan Walker wrote:
    >
    >> On Sat, 26 May 2007 13:42:55 +1200, Will Spencer wrote:
    >>
    >>> I use Office 2007 but I usually distribute the docs as PDF or RTF unless
    >>> otherwise asked, but normally I can please everybody as it has a lot of
    >>> 'save as' format options which I find handy. I wouldn't send a doc as
    >>> .docx format unless specifically asked.

    >> Can you save your MS Office documents in the ISO standard OpenDocument file
    >> format?

    >
    > Don't know don't care, nobody has ever asked for it. Don't think they ever
    > will either.
    >

    Agreed the average user may be able to avoid dealing with ODF for the
    time being,
    but some major users especially government agencies are starting to head
    in that
    direction. Microsoft is conducting a major international firefighting
    operation
    to try and stop this happening, and must be paying out millions in campaign
    contributions and bri.. (urp) entertainment allowances to try and
    contain this hazard.
    peterwn, May 26, 2007
    #16
  17. peterwn

    Will Spencer Guest

    On Sun, 27 May 2007 09:02:37 +1200, peterwn wrote:

    > Will Spencer wrote:
    >> On 26 May 2007 14:13:40 +1200, Jonathan Walker wrote:
    >>
    >>> On Sat, 26 May 2007 13:42:55 +1200, Will Spencer wrote:
    >>>
    >>>> I use Office 2007 but I usually distribute the docs as PDF or RTF unless
    >>>> otherwise asked, but normally I can please everybody as it has a lot of
    >>>> 'save as' format options which I find handy. I wouldn't send a doc as
    >>>> .docx format unless specifically asked.
    >>> Can you save your MS Office documents in the ISO standard OpenDocument file
    >>> format?

    >>
    >> Don't know don't care, nobody has ever asked for it. Don't think they ever
    >> will either.
    >>

    > Agreed the average user may be able to avoid dealing with ODF for the
    > time being,
    > but some major users especially government agencies are starting to head
    > in that
    > direction. Microsoft is conducting a major international firefighting
    > operation
    > to try and stop this happening, and must be paying out millions in campaign
    > contributions and bri.. (urp) entertainment allowances to try and
    > contain this hazard.


    I think you're talking a load of crap, but good luck spreading your lies
    anyway.

    -ws
    Will Spencer, May 27, 2007
    #17
  18. On Sun, 27 May 2007 08:57:21 +1200, peterwn wrote:

    >> Ecma is the European standards organisation. Considering they're the
    >> ones that produced the standard for C++ and C#, they are not exactly a
    >> 2-bit outfit.

    >
    > ECMA IMO is more a manufacturers lobby group than an impartial standards
    > outfit. Microsoft invests heavily in it and of course expects a return on
    > its investment.


    Isn't "ECMA" merely an acronym for "European Computer Manufacturers
    Association"?

    The standards setting organisation for Europe is the IEC, more fully known
    as the International Electrotechnical Commission.

    http://www.iec.ch/about/partners/

    "An initial agreement was signed with ISO in 1976 and ten years later the
    two bodies established the ISO/IEC Joint Technical Committee 1 (ISO/IEC
    JTC 1) to cover the vast and expanding field of information technology."

    And, of course this is the same Joint Technical Committee that approved
    the use of ODF as an international standard. IEC approval for ODF is also
    why ODF is rapidly gaining momentum and use over in Europe.


    > AFAIK, C# is a Microsoft-centric language, not one accepted for general
    > use, apart from applications that interface with Windows.
    >
    > Although one could argue that FORTRAN was created by IBM it took on a life
    > well beyond the confines of IBM.


    Wasn't Formula Translator the first third-generation programming language
    developed?


    --
    Jonathan Walker

    "You'll have to excuse me — I have a long
    bath and a short dress to get into."
    Jonathan Walker, May 27, 2007
    #18
  19. In message <>, Will Spencer wrote:

    >> Microsoft is conducting a major international firefighting
    >> operation to try and stop [ODF adoption] happening...

    >
    > I think you're talking a load of crap ...


    Not according to various reports. Check this
    <http://www.consortiuminfo.org/standardsblog/article.php?story=20070312213800675>
    for an example of the kinds of maneouvrings Microsoft is resorting to.
    Lawrence D'Oliveiro, May 27, 2007
    #19
  20. peterwn

    peterwn Guest

    Jonathan Walker wrote:
    > On Sun, 27 May 2007 08:57:21 +1200, peterwn wrote:
    >
    > Isn't "ECMA" merely an acronym for "European Computer Manufacturers
    > Association"?


    Yes, and such 'associations' are frequently lobby groups for their
    members and / or do the 'dirty work' that their members do not want to
    do. Similar associations are RIAA and BSA.

    >
    > The standards setting organisation for Europe is the IEC, more fully known
    > as the International Electrotechnical Commission.


    I thought that it was international (although North America has separate
    standards for its power industry), not just European. Some years I was
    on a local standards committee that recommended adoption of IEC 65
    (covering TV sets etc) without change for NZ (and this occurred). Prior
    to that there was a NZ standard which was a butchered version of an
    Australian standard that generally followed IEC 65.

    >
    > http://www.iec.ch/about/partners/
    >
    > "An initial agreement was signed with ISO in 1976 and ten years later the
    > two bodies established the ISO/IEC Joint Technical Committee 1 (ISO/IEC
    > JTC 1) to cover the vast and expanding field of information technology."
    >
    > And, of course this is the same Joint Technical Committee that approved
    > the use of ODF as an international standard. IEC approval for ODF is also
    > why ODF is rapidly gaining momentum and use over in Europe.
    >


    That is right, and the Committee is soon to be subjected to enormous
    political pressure (orchestrated from Redmond) to take on board OOXML
    despite its serious deficiencies as a standard.

    >
    >> AFAIK, C# is a Microsoft-centric language, not one accepted for general
    >> use, apart from applications that interface with Windows.
    >>
    >> Although one could argue that FORTRAN was created by IBM it took on a life
    >> well beyond the confines of IBM.

    >
    > Wasn't Formula Translator the first third-generation programming language
    > developed?
    >

    AFAIK yes. At that time there was generally no 'property' in software -
    the IBM oriented community shared software and AFAIK IBM did not assert
    proprietary rights over its software (eg the first Fortran compiler),
    since its business objective was selling hardware. If you purchased an
    IBM computer you had access to all IBM's software (including source code
    I think), plus that in the user pool. It was only in the early 1970's
    that 'unbundling' started to occur.

    It is worth noting that early UNIX development was 'open' until AT&T
    started imposing proprietary rights over it and in the process
    'stealing' UNIX contributions from the University of California (who
    successfully sued AT&T over this) and the University of New South Wales
    among others.
    peterwn, May 27, 2007
    #20
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