Megapixels clearly explained

Discussion in 'Digital Photography' started by George Preddy, Jan 21, 2004.

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  1. Braindead Preddy, Jan 21, 2004
    #2
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  2. George Preddy

    Colm Guest

    Colm, Jan 21, 2004
    #3
  3. George Preddy

    -Gene- Guest

    George, I'm definitely interested in the Foveon sensor and think
    it, or its equivalent, will be in most digital cameras before long.
    I see it as still in the development stage and I don't want one
    until it's perfected.
    Gene


    George Preddy wrote:

    > http://www.x3f.info/technotes/x3pixel/pixelpage.html
    -Gene-, Jan 21, 2004
    #4
  4. George Preddy

    Virgil Hilts Guest

    In that page, refers to a pixel (accepted definition) as:

    "A color pixel is an information unit consisting of three components, most commonly a red, a green, and a blue value"

    What happens when you use a colour model different from RGB (like CYMK or "32-bit colour")?

    What's the "minimum accepted depth" (bits) for each component? (I mean, your can have
    16-bit colour models (4 bits per component on a RGB-basis), 24-bit, 32-bit, etc.)


    George Preddy wrote:
    > http://www.x3f.info/technotes/x3pixel/pixelpage.html
    >
    >
    Virgil Hilts, Jan 21, 2004
    #5
  5. George Preddy

    cb Guest

    I'm not sure which one he bought but the Sigma SD10 is a great camera for
    the price, IMHO.

    "Colm" <> wrote in message
    news:bum41j$jm9jj$-berlin.de...
    > You bought the wrong camera. Get over it.
    >
    > --
    > Colm
    >
    >
    > "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    > news:bulu0g$olq$...
    > > http://www.x3f.info/technotes/x3pixel/pixelpage.html
    > >
    > >

    >
    cb, Jan 21, 2004
    #6
  6. George Preddy

    Colm Guest

    And that's a reasonable response to your purchase. I'm happy with my DSLR
    too, but GP is so defensive about his that he can't possibly be happy with
    it. He should just mark it down to experience.

    --
    Colm


    "cb" <> wrote in message
    news:TkxPb.12696$...
    > I'm not sure which one he bought but the Sigma SD10 is a great camera for
    > the price, IMHO.
    Colm, Jan 21, 2004
    #7
  7. George Preddy

    Paul H. Guest

    Paul H., Jan 21, 2004
    #8
  8. "Virgil Hilts" <> wrote in message
    news:bum54h$sa2$-data.net...
    > In that page, refers to a pixel (accepted definition) as:
    >
    > "A color pixel is an information unit consisting of three components, most

    commonly a red, a green, and a blue value"
    >
    > What happens when you use a colour model different from RGB (like CYMK or

    "32-bit colour")?

    Then it would take whatever the model needs to represent a full color,
    presumably. If I use 1/10th spectrum sensors to cover the visible range,
    then it takes 10. This seems common sensical.

    But it's a red herring anyway, as both Bayer and Foveon use a 3 primary
    color sensor model.

    > What's the "minimum accepted depth" (bits) for each component? (I mean,

    your can have
    > 16-bit colour models (4 bits per component on a RGB-basis), 24-bit,

    32-bit, etc.)
    >
    >
    > George Preddy wrote:
    > > http://www.x3f.info/technotes/x3pixel/pixelpage.html
    > >
    > >
    George Preddy, Jan 22, 2004
    #9
  9. "Paul H." <> wrote in message
    news:JpyPb.22204$...
    >
    > "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    > news:bulu0g$olq$...
    > > http://www.x3f.info/technotes/x3pixel/pixelpage.html

    >
    > Bah. The number of pixels is the number of dots comprising the picture,
    > regardless of stacked color planes. What's unclear about that?


    So 14M in the case of Foveon, which outputs 4536 x 3024 interpolated images?

    (4 recorded output pixels per RGB triplet, same interpolation standard as a
    Canon 10D's 6MP output file)
    George Preddy, Jan 22, 2004
    #10
  10. "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    news:buo82c$fip$...
    >
    >
    > So


    .... 3.4M ...

    > in the case of Foveon, which outputs


    1512 x 2268 pixels.
    Braindead Preddy, Jan 22, 2004
    #11
  11. George Preddy

    Paul H. Guest

    "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    news:buo82c$fip$...
    >
    > "Paul H." <> wrote in message
    > news:JpyPb.22204$...
    > >
    > > "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    > > news:bulu0g$olq$...
    > > > http://www.x3f.info/technotes/x3pixel/pixelpage.html

    > >
    > > Bah. The number of pixels is the number of dots comprising the picture,
    > > regardless of stacked color planes. What's unclear about that?

    >
    > So 14M in the case of Foveon, which outputs 4536 x 3024 interpolated

    images?
    >
    > (4 recorded output pixels per RGB triplet, same interpolation standard as

    a
    > Canon 10D's 6MP output file)


    You're right, in one sense: I fell prey to the logical error of the Greek
    philosopher who once described a man as a "featherless biped", only to be
    confronted with a plucked chicken and asked, "Is this your man?"

    I did assume, though, we were speaking only of non-interpolated images,
    since the inclusion of interpolation allows any camera to be called an
    infinite-MP camera, as the amount of interpolation is limited only by the
    speed and memory of the computer used to provide the interpolation.
    Secondly, interpolation of RGB values to estimate color information at each
    pixel has absolutely NOTHING at all to do with the spatial resolution of the
    imager, which is what any reasonable person would assume the basic
    "megapixel number" is trying to estimate.

    Megapixels claims should be based upon the maximum number of independent
    luminance-measuring sites in a single plane of the sensor. Of course, you
    must be aware of this, but for reasons known only to yourself, you try to
    supplant objectivity with obfuscatory quibbling. The SD9 may take wonderul
    photos but it is,roughy speaking, a 3.5 MP camera; to suggest otherwise is
    simply foolish and wrong-headed.
    Paul H., Jan 22, 2004
    #12
  12. In article <buo7t1$fgi$>,
    "George Preddy" says...

    > both Bayer and Foveon use a 3 primary
    > color sensor model.


    Nope. Bayer does. And thanks to precisely defined filters,
    it actually works very well.

    In absence of defined filters, and with huge spectral overlap
    the Foveon is nowhere even near primary colors.


    --
    Michael Quack <>

    http://www.photoquack.de/glamour/1.htm
    http://www.photoquack.de/fashion/1.htm
    Michael Quack, Jan 22, 2004
    #13
  13. "Michael Quack" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <buo7t1$fgi$>,
    > "George Preddy" says...
    >
    > > both Bayer and Foveon use a 3 primary
    > > color sensor model.

    >
    > Nope. Bayer does. And thanks to precisely defined filters,
    > it actually works very well.
    >
    > In absence of defined filters, and with huge spectral overlap
    > the Foveon is nowhere even near primary colors.


    Correct.
    Funny how "George" doesn't even understand how the Foveon works...

    Bart
    Bart van der Wolf, Jan 22, 2004
    #14
  14. "Michael Quack" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    > In article <buo7t1$fgi$>,
    > "George Preddy" says...
    >
    > > both Bayer and Foveon use a 3 primary
    > > color sensor model.

    >
    > Nope. Bayer does. And thanks to precisely defined filters,
    > it actually works very well.


    Bayer's cheap plastic filters (each pixel's a bit different) are another
    reason Canon is not optically competitive. And yet another reason putting
    gorgeous L glass infront of that last element, an intetionally cloudy piece
    of plastic, makes zero sense.
    George Preddy, Jan 23, 2004
    #15
  15. "Paul H." <> wrote in message
    news:1ZTPb.23354$...
    >
    > "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    > news:buo82c$fip$...
    > >
    > > "Paul H." <> wrote in message
    > > news:JpyPb.22204$...
    > > >
    > > > "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    > > > news:bulu0g$olq$...
    > > > > http://www.x3f.info/technotes/x3pixel/pixelpage.html
    > > >
    > > > Bah. The number of pixels is the number of dots comprising the

    picture,
    > > > regardless of stacked color planes. What's unclear about that?

    > >
    > > So 14M in the case of Foveon, which outputs 4536 x 3024 interpolated

    > images?
    > >
    > > (4 recorded output pixels per RGB triplet, same interpolation standard

    as
    > a
    > > Canon 10D's 6MP output file)

    >
    > You're right, in one sense: I fell prey to the logical error of the Greek
    > philosopher who once described a man as a "featherless biped", only to be
    > confronted with a plucked chicken and asked, "Is this your man?"
    >
    > I did assume, though, we were speaking only of non-interpolated images,


    Only Foveon can produce a non-interpolated image.

    > since the inclusion of interpolation allows any camera to be called an
    > infinite-MP camera, as the amount of interpolation is limited only by the
    > speed and memory of the computer used to provide the interpolation.
    > Secondly, interpolation of RGB values to estimate color information at

    each
    > pixel has absolutely NOTHING at all to do with the spatial resolution of

    the
    > imager, which is what any reasonable person would assume the basic
    > "megapixel number" is trying to estimate.
    >
    > Megapixels claims should be based upon the maximum number of independent
    > luminance-measuring sites in a single plane of the sensor.


    I disagree, but Foveon actually agrees with you, not me. That is why they
    classify the SD9 as only 10.3MP, and not 14MP.

    > Of course, you
    > must be aware of this, but for reasons known only to yourself, you try to
    > supplant objectivity with obfuscatory quibbling. The SD9 may take

    wonderul
    > photos but it is,roughy speaking, a 3.5 MP camera; to suggest otherwise is
    > simply foolish and wrong-headed.
    George Preddy, Jan 23, 2004
    #16
  16. "Bart van der Wolf" <> wrote in message
    news:40104756$0$318$4all.nl...

    > Correct.
    > Funny how "George" doesn't even understand how the Foveon works...


    It's not my link, it is from Carver Mead's website.

    www.x3f.info
    George Preddy, Jan 23, 2004
    #17
  17. "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    news:bupur7$lnr$...
    SNIP
    > Bayer's cheap plastic filters (each pixel's a bit different) are another
    > reason Canon is not optically competitive.


    You alledge to know, so:
    Which "plastic" (if any) is used?????????????????????

    Bart
    Bart van der Wolf, Jan 23, 2004
    #18
  18. "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    news:bupvcp$ls7$...
    >
    > "Bart van der Wolf" <> wrote in message
    > news:40104756$0$318$4all.nl...
    >
    > > Correct.
    > > Funny how "George" doesn't even understand how the Foveon works...

    >
    > It's not my link, it is from Carver Mead's website.


    No it isn't:

    > In article <buo7t1$fgi$>,
    > "George Preddy" says...
    >
    > > both Bayer and Foveon use a 3 primary
    > > color sensor model.


    Bart
    Bart van der Wolf, Jan 23, 2004
    #19
  19. "Bart van der Wolf" <> wrote in message
    news:401096c3$0$322$4all.nl...
    >
    > "George Preddy" <> wrote in message
    > news:bupvcp$ls7$...
    > >
    > > "Bart van der Wolf" <> wrote in message
    > > news:40104756$0$318$4all.nl...
    > >
    > > > Correct.
    > > > Funny how "George" doesn't even understand how the Foveon works...

    > >
    > > It's not my link, it is from Carver Mead's website.

    >
    > No it isn't:


    Yes it is. Carver Mead owns it.
    George Preddy, Jan 23, 2004
    #20
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