MCSD Value

Discussion in 'MCSD' started by John, Jan 24, 2005.

  1. John

    John Guest

    Is someone with this certification worth more with than
    without? I've heard conflicting "ideas" about whether .NET
    is worth the training effort or not. It seems that with a
    little time and a good book, or with a few grand and a
    computer school, almost anyone can learn this.
     
    John, Jan 24, 2005
    #1
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  2. John

    Darwin Fisk Guest

    Almost anyone can learn almost anything.... Given enough time and materials.
    Is the one who spent the time to learn the materials worth more? Usually
    yes, unless they learned only what was needed to pass a test.

    My Two Cents,

    Darwin

    "John" <> wrote in message
    news:151701c50234$7fc6d820$...
    > Is someone with this certification worth more with than
    > without? I've heard conflicting "ideas" about whether .NET
    > is worth the training effort or not. It seems that with a
    > little time and a good book, or with a few grand and a
    > computer school, almost anyone can learn this.
     
    Darwin Fisk, Jan 24, 2005
    #2
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  3. John

    Guest Guest

    A real Microsoft platform developer can back up their MCSD certification
    with a proven history of work on projects.

    "John" <> wrote in message
    news:151701c50234$7fc6d820$...
    > Is someone with this certification worth more with than
    > without? I've heard conflicting "ideas" about whether .NET
    > is worth the training effort or not. It seems that with a
    > little time and a good book, or with a few grand and a
    > computer school, almost anyone can learn this.
     
    Guest, Jan 24, 2005
    #3
  4. John

    Guest Guest

    A real Microsoft platform developer can back up their MCSD certification
    with a proven history of work on projects.

    "John" <> wrote in message
    news:151701c50234$7fc6d820$...
    > Is someone with this certification worth more with than
    > without? I've heard conflicting "ideas" about whether .NET
    > is worth the training effort or not. It seems that with a
    > little time and a good book, or with a few grand and a
    > computer school, almost anyone can learn this.
     
    Guest, Jan 24, 2005
    #4
  5. >A real Microsoft platform developer can back up their MCSD certification
    >with a proven history of work on projects.


    .... in addition in the number of transcenders, troytechs, testkings
    etc they have bought or stolen :)

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jan 25, 2005
    #5
  6. John

    Guest Guest


    >Is someone with this certification worth more with than without? I've
    >heard conflicting "ideas" about whether .NET is worth the training
    >effort or not. It seems that with a little time and a good book, or
    >with a few grand and a computer school, almost anyone can learn this.
    >
    >

    I think the point is not wether a programmer with is better than one without.
    The point is a prospective employer needs a way to gauge the ability of
    a new programmer. Anybody can walk in off the street and say "I've read
    a book therefore I can program.", but if there is no previous experience
    (the old catch-22 of the computer business) how can the employer know?
     
    Guest, Jan 26, 2005
    #6
  7. >The point is a prospective employer needs a way to gauge the ability of
    >a new programmer.


    lol!

    well, any 'prospective employer' will certainly NOT be able to gauge
    anything from an mcsd cert.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jan 26, 2005
    #7
  8. John

    Eric Guest

    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere wrote:

    > well, any 'prospective employer' will certainly NOT be able to gauge
    > anything from an mcsd cert.


    That's more true than it should be, but I am guessing the HR department
    might use it as a filter for resumes they get. They have to trim down
    the number of resumes using a non-discriminatory standard.

    Of course, a degree is always the best choice first.

    Eric
     
    Eric, Jan 26, 2005
    #8
  9. >That's more true than it should be, but I am guessing the HR department
    >might use it as a filter for resumes they get. They have to trim down
    >the number of resumes using a non-discriminatory standard.


    In that case, it's time to fire the hr droid. Any company that puts
    certs above industry and business experience deserves what they get.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jan 26, 2005
    #9
  10. John

    maxthegold Guest


    >>That's more true than it should be, but I am guessing the HR
    >>department might use it as a filter for resumes they get. They have to
    >>trim down the number of resumes using a non-discriminatory standard.

    >
    >In that case, it's time to fire the hr droid. Any company that puts
    >certs above industry and business experience deserves what they get.
    >
    >Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    >
    >

    I was not suggesting for a moment that a cert should be put above a degree
    or relevant experience, but in the absence of all else employers will use
    whatever is easiest to filter applicants. Anybody in this business knows
    how hard it is to get a start, because of the attitude displayed above
    that anybody without relevant experience is a useless moron, so every little
    bit helps.
    --
    Regards,
    Max.
     
    maxthegold, Jan 27, 2005
    #10
  11. John

    Guest Guest

    Your post says it all Max. It's all but impossible to get a
    start. My experience in searching for a .NET opportunity is
    that without at least 3 years experience, especially in the
    "business aspects" of the job, they won't even talk to me.
    Since I have only embedded firmware development experience,
    my thought was to get MCSD certified. But my guess is, that
    probably won't get me to far either.

    >-----Original Message-----
    >
    >>>That's more true than it should be, but I am guessing

    the HR
    >>>department might use it as a filter for resumes they

    get. They have to
    >>>trim down the number of resumes using a

    non-discriminatory standard.
    >>
    >>In that case, it's time to fire the hr droid. Any company

    that puts
    >>certs above industry and business experience deserves

    what they get.
    >>
    >>Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    >>
    >>

    >I was not suggesting for a moment that a cert should be

    put above a degree
    >or relevant experience, but in the absence of all else

    employers will use
    >whatever is easiest to filter applicants. Anybody in this

    business knows
    >how hard it is to get a start, because of the attitude

    displayed above
    >that anybody without relevant experience is a useless

    moron, so every little
    >bit helps.
    >--
    >Regards,
    >Max.
    >
    >
    >
    >.
    >
     
    Guest, Jan 27, 2005
    #11
  12. >Your post says it all Max. It's all but impossible to get a
    >start.


    Rubbish. Hard yes, but that's no different than it's always been.
    People with a decent education and who are prepared to maybe move
    around, will get into the profession.

    >My experience in searching for a .NET opportunity is
    >that without at least 3 years experience, especially in the
    >"business aspects" of the job, they won't even talk to me.


    As it should be. Companies want the best, period.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jan 27, 2005
    #12
  13. > Anybody in this business knows
    >how hard it is to get a start, because of the attitude displayed above
    >that anybody without relevant experience is a useless moron,


    It has nothing whatsoever to do with attitude. Companies require
    experienced people because it's cost effective because training people
    requires effort, time and money.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jan 27, 2005
    #13
  14. John

    Alistair Guest

    And many HR dept's and executive are still smarting from
    the "boom" times, when they either:
    (a) hired people and invested big training them up, only
    to lose them to the next big dot-com thing; or
    (b) hired them only to find they were "paper" pro's (i.e.
    not worth the paper their cert was printed on).

    It's no wonder companies are more careful these days. Far
    safer to hire someone with 3-5 years experience than
    someone who's untried and untested and looking to get a
    foot in the door.

    $0.02, please
    >-----Original Message-----
    >> Anybody in this business knows
    >>how hard it is to get a start, because of the attitude

    displayed above
    >>that anybody without relevant experience is a useless

    moron,
    >
    >It has nothing whatsoever to do with attitude. Companies

    require
    >experienced people because it's cost effective because

    training people
    >requires effort, time and money.
    >
    >Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
    >.
    >
     
    Alistair, Jan 27, 2005
    #14
  15. John

    maxthegold Guest


    >And many HR dept's and executive are still smarting from the "boom"
    >times, when they either:
    >(a) hired people and invested big training them up, only to lose them
    >to the next big dot-com thing; or
    >(b) hired them only to find they were "paper" pro's (i.e.
    >not worth the paper their cert was printed on).
    >
    >It's no wonder companies are more careful these days. Far safer to hire
    >someone with 3-5 years experience than someone who's untried and
    >untested and looking to get a foot in the door.
    >


    Of course it is, but that doesn't help the people who are trying to start
    out or retrain.
    It is a bit short sighted though, I have seen plenty of absolute idiots
    who have been programming for years. Merely having length of service doesn't
    necessarily prove much.
    Perhaps we need a training system, outside of university, that employers
    and employees can rely on, if certification is no good. What do companies
    do when they want to train their people up in a new skill. Because if that
    is good enough for their existing employees it should be good enough for
    prospective employees.
    --
    Regards,
    Max.
     
    maxthegold, Jan 28, 2005
    #15
  16. >It's no wonder companies are more careful these days. Far
    >safer to hire someone with 3-5 years experience than
    >someone who's untried and untested and looking to get a
    >foot in the door.


    it's just good old common sense, shame so many people these days don't
    have any!

    >$0.02, please


    on it's way :)

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jan 28, 2005
    #16
  17. >Of course it is, but that doesn't help the people who are trying to start
    >out or retrain.


    No one ever told me life would easy. As I've said before, people want
    it all on plate, and it don't work that way... Well, good luck to
    those people, they'll need it.

    >It is a bit short sighted though, I have seen plenty of absolute idiots
    >who have been programming for years. Merely having length of service doesn't
    >necessarily prove much.


    Me too.

    >Perhaps we need a training system, outside of university, that employers
    >and employees can rely on, if certification is no good.


    I agree and said this a number times in the past.

    > What do companies
    >do when they want to train their people up in a new skill. Because if that
    >is good enough for their existing employees it should be good enough for
    >prospective employees.


    Learning a new techniques and technologies is easy for experienced
    people, it's just part and parcel of the profession and has been so
    for over twenty plus years I've been in this game.

    One fact you keep missing out, is that it is much harder to train
    people in the area the business operates. No ms certification program
    teaches you that.

    Kline Sphere (Chalk) MCNGP #3
     
    The Poster Formerly Known as Kline Sphere, Jan 28, 2005
    #17
  18. John

    Eric Guest

    maxthegold wrote:

    > that doesn't help the people who are trying to
    > start out or retrain.


    that's very true. These are hard times in our business, unfortunately.

    > Perhaps we need a training system, outside of university, that
    > employers and employees can rely on, if certification is no good.


    Great idea, but I don't see how that kind of thing can work in the real
    world. We certainly don't want governments to do it, because that would
    be a disaster. Companies can't really do it without some kind of
    central coordination, and that's always hard to get.

    The only thing that makes sense when you lack the experience companies
    want is to target a lower paying job for 1 or 2 years. Make very sure
    that you totally master every aspect of .net during this time. Give
    maybe 50 or 60 hours a week to learning and DOING, whether or not you
    get any serious amount of pay. This is an investment in your FUTURE.

    And go to all the training classes you can get, and all the free user
    group meetings. I've learned a lot over the years from other developers
    in these meetings. My first year in .net I didn't understand everything
    people were talking about, but this comes over time. Make some local
    friends who have more experience than you and bug them a lot!

    Pay your dues for a year or two. It's going to be a LOT of work for
    very little pay. But then you'll be in the driver's seat after that,
    and you can get more pay because you'll have the experience under your
    belt.

    Eric
     
    Eric, Jan 28, 2005
    #18
  19. John

    maxthegold Guest

    >
    >No one ever told me life would easy. As I've said before, people want
    >it all on plate, and it don't work that way... Well, good luck to those
    >people, they'll need it.
    >
    >
    >Learning a new techniques and technologies is easy for experienced
    >people, it's just part and parcel of the profession and has been so for
    >over twenty plus years I've been in this game.
    >


    I keep hearing smugness that comes from full employment. Consider this
    and I am sure this is not an isolated case. In Australia recently, a leading
    bank announced it could not find enough skilled people so it was going
    to have to outsource some of it's IT development to India. There are currently
    tens of thousands of experienced IT professionals out of work in Australia.
    In a few years time when technology lurches in a different direction,
    this could be you.
    --
    Regards,
    Max.
     
    maxthegold, Jan 29, 2005
    #19
  20. John

    Brad Guest

    Regardless of supposed "demonstration of skills and knowledge" or whatever,
    there may be new value added into the certs with Microsoft's new points
    system for the Microsoft Partner program. Companies trying to achieve a
    certain partner program certification level can gain points toward that
    level by associating the MCP credentials of their employees with their
    Partner Program membership. My company gets 40 points for all of my certs.
    If I leave and dissociate my MCP ID from them, they lose those points and
    (not likely, but potentially) the number of points needed to maintain their
    certification level in the program.
    Many employers are going to value this program and may find new reason to
    seek certified candidates, though I still don't think that will give top
    salaries or even job offers to paper certs.

    "John" <> wrote in message
    news:151701c50234$7fc6d820$...
    > Is someone with this certification worth more with than
    > without? I've heard conflicting "ideas" about whether .NET
    > is worth the training effort or not. It seems that with a
    > little time and a good book, or with a few grand and a
    > computer school, almost anyone can learn this.
     
    Brad, Jan 29, 2005
    #20
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