Max. length of USB cables?..

Discussion in 'Computer Information' started by tony sayer, Oct 26, 2006.

  1. tony sayer

    tony sayer Guest

    We've got a PC over there <- and a APC UPS over there-> around 10 metres
    apart, don't ask!, its the way it is;!.

    We need to hook up that to the PC for monitoring etc these units use USB
    for that.

    NE one know if its OK to extend them or daisy chain a few together for
    that sort of length?..


    TIA...
    --
    Tony Sayer
    tony sayer, Oct 26, 2006
    #1
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  2. tony sayer

    Neil Green Guest

    "tony sayer" <> wrote in message
    news:...
    >
    > We've got a PC over there <- and a APC UPS over
    > there-> around 10 metres
    > apart, don't ask!, its the way it is;!.
    >
    > We need to hook up that to the PC for monitoring etc
    > these units use USB
    > for that.
    >
    > NE one know if its OK to extend them or daisy chain
    > a few together for
    > that sort of length?..
    >
    >
    > TIA...
    > --
    > Tony Sayer


    The maximum is generally 5 metres.
    If you need to go 10 put a hub in the middle.
    Neil Green, Oct 26, 2006
    #2
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  3. tony sayer

    tony sayer Guest

    In article <45409b1f$0$21511$>, Neil Green
    <> writes
    >
    >"tony sayer" <> wrote in message
    >news:...
    >>
    >> We've got a PC over there <- and a APC UPS over
    >> there-> around 10 metres
    >> apart, don't ask!, its the way it is;!.
    >>
    >> We need to hook up that to the PC for monitoring etc
    >> these units use USB
    >> for that.
    >>
    >> NE one know if its OK to extend them or daisy chain
    >> a few together for
    >> that sort of length?..
    >>
    >>
    >> TIA...
    >> --
    >> Tony Sayer

    >
    >The maximum is generally 5 metres.
    >If you need to go 10 put a hub in the middle.
    >
    >


    Duh!, hub yes of course;)

    cheers M8!...
    --
    Tony Sayer
    tony sayer, Oct 26, 2006
    #3
  4. tony sayer

    Spajky Guest

    On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:45:08 +0100, tony sayer <>
    wrote:

    >>"tony sayer" <> wrote in message
    >>news:...
    >>>
    >>> We've got a PC over there <- and a APC UPS over
    >>> there-> around 10 metres
    >>> apart, don't ask!, its the way it is;!.
    >>>
    >>> We need to hook up that to the PC for monitoring etc
    >>> these units use USB
    >>> for that.
    >>>
    >>> NE one know if its OK to extend them or daisy chain
    >>> a few together for
    >>> that sort of length?..


    >>The maximum is generally 5 metres.
    >>If you need to go 10 put a hub in the middle.


    >Duh!, hub yes of course;)


    I believe that data speed transfer between PC & that UPS would be /is/
    rather slow (serial port replacement on UPS) & no need for extra
    powering the client, since UPS has its own powering Usb port IMHO ...,
    so IMHO would work only with quality USB cable extending a line ...
    I´ve seen/read cases working with daisy chaining Usb cables up to 13m
    w/o hub cases, but that could be a lottery chosing right one (could
    work or even not, since its over the specs) ...

    Some my Net-Pal managed to run an Usb powered WebCam (it also
    does not need much DC powering; with shorting serial 22ohm resistors
    on cams data lines internal circuitry) over 20m BUT using UTP5e (Lan)
    cable ... so, IMHO replacing original Usb cable with that kind of
    cable should work for sure for "only" 10m w/o adding a hub ...

    I also "developed" a solution for longer distances (over 20m)
    & power demanding devices like Usb-WLAN-Keys w/o using powered hubs
    or data signal boosters (purpose: cheap DIY active [Usb] wifi antenna
    connections-no RF signal loss!) using cheap common 75ohm Sat coax,
    which should also work BUT I still did NOT TESTED it ! ...

    /a day before popped me that idea, mine UsbKey died when performing
    some other experiments ... will get a cheap replacement some day to
    test myself also this last idea .../ if someone interested, here is
    a schematic to test (if someone willing to do it by himself..)

    http://193.189.160.28/seibert/HP/UsbEnh/UsbLongCable.gif

    So, if someone tests that stuff before me, give me a note (or mail)
    please ...






    --
    Regards , SPAJKY ®
    mail addr. @ my site @ http://www.spajky.vze.com
    4y - "Tualatin OC-ed / BX-Slot1 / inaudible setup!"
    Spajky, Oct 28, 2006
    #4
  5. tony sayer

    Baron Guest

    Spajky wrote:

    > On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 22:45:08 +0100, tony sayer <>
    > wrote:
    >
    >>>"tony sayer" <> wrote in message
    >>>news:...
    >>>>
    >>>> We've got a PC over there <- and a APC UPS over
    >>>> there-> around 10 metres
    >>>> apart, don't ask!, its the way it is;!.
    >>>>
    >>>> We need to hook up that to the PC for monitoring etc
    >>>> these units use USB
    >>>> for that.
    >>>>
    >>>> NE one know if its OK to extend them or daisy chain
    >>>> a few together for
    >>>> that sort of length?..

    >
    >>>The maximum is generally 5 metres.
    >>>If you need to go 10 put a hub in the middle.

    >
    >>Duh!, hub yes of course;)

    >
    > I believe that data speed transfer between PC & that UPS would be /is/
    > rather slow (serial port replacement on UPS) & no need for extra
    > powering the client, since UPS has its own powering Usb port IMHO ...,
    > so IMHO would work only with quality USB cable extending a line ...
    > I´ve seen/read cases working with daisy chaining Usb cables up to 13m
    > w/o hub cases, but that could be a lottery chosing right one (could
    > work or even not, since its over the specs) ...
    >
    > Some my Net-Pal managed to run an Usb powered WebCam (it also
    > does not need much DC powering; with shorting serial 22ohm resistors
    > on cams data lines internal circuitry) over 20m BUT using UTP5e (Lan)
    > cable ... so, IMHO replacing original Usb cable with that kind of
    > cable should work for sure for "only" 10m w/o adding a hub ...
    >
    > I also "developed" a solution for longer distances (over 20m)
    > & power demanding devices like Usb-WLAN-Keys w/o using powered hubs
    > or data signal boosters (purpose: cheap DIY active [Usb] wifi antenna
    > connections-no RF signal loss!) using cheap common 75ohm Sat coax,
    > which should also work BUT I still did NOT TESTED it ! ...
    >
    > /a day before popped me that idea, mine UsbKey died when performing
    > some other experiments ... will get a cheap replacement some day to
    > test myself also this last idea .../ if someone interested, here is
    > a schematic to test (if someone willing to do it by himself..)
    >
    > http://193.189.160.28/seibert/HP/UsbEnh/UsbLongCable.gif
    >
    > So, if someone tests that stuff before me, give me a note (or mail)
    > please ...
    >
    > --
    > Regards , SPAJKY ®


    Your circuit will work ! It is though very dangerous !
    Ignoring the fact that you have used co-axial cable outer sheath to
    provide DC power to the remote end, you have no way of guaranteeing
    that the ground potential is going to be the same at each USB
    connection ! That is no voltage difference between the negative
    connections. Just the induced voltages due to cable length will
    potentially cause issues. Which is why twisted pair should be used, as
    in Cat5. Also to protect the computer USB ports transformer Isolation
    should be used.


    --
    Baron:
    Baron, Oct 28, 2006
    #5
  6. tony sayer

    Spajky Guest

    On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 12:19:50 +0100, Baron <> wrote:

    >> a solution for longer distances (over 20m)
    >> should also work BUT I still did NOT TESTED it ! ...
    >> if someone interested, here is
    >> a schematic to test (if someone willing to do it by himself..)
    >>
    >> http://193.189.160.28/seibert/HP/UsbEnh/UsbLongCable.gif


    >Your circuit will work !


    Well, ´till I test it, I am not 100% sure (still could be some data
    signal phase problems ...)

    > It is though very dangerous !


    good to have pointed to that ...

    > you have no way of guaranteeing
    >that the ground potential is going to be the same at each USB
    >connection ! That is no voltage difference between the negative
    >connections.


    Yes, that could be the problem, when having connected not just only
    one or mixed powered & non powered "Usb clients" or hubs together or
    daisy chained ... but as I recall, negative (4th usb pin) & grounds on
    "clients" side should not be tied/connected together as a standard
    states ...

    But anyway, the schematic idea was primerly ment only for single Usb
    port use with single non-auto /bus/ powered power-hungry device like
    WLAN UsbKey ...

    >Just the induced voltages due to cable length will
    >potentially cause issues.


    Yes, that could cause some problems maybe ...

    > to protect the computer USB ports transformer Isolation
    >should be used.


    IMHO that won´t work, since Usb is practically half-duplex serial on
    single twisted pair & DC part on data lines serves to switch mode of
    operation too .. (its not like for ethernet) ... but IMHO
    opto-couplers should do the trick in that cases .. Usually for
    extending up to 1km the Usb connection, the RS-4** chips are used for
    twisted pair line ... but I wanted simpliest/cheapest solution ; well,
    nothing is idiotproof ... :) , always something could go wrong ..

    .... but anyway, thanks for opinions ... you know, anytime you try to
    do something "special" & out of ordinary stuff, problems could arise &
    a desire not to fry something :)) is always present ...

    --
    Regards , SPAJKY ®
    mail addr. @ my site @ http://www.spajky.vze.com
    4y - "Tualatin OC-ed / BX-Slot1 / inaudible setup!"
    Spajky, Oct 29, 2006
    #6
  7. tony sayer

    Baron Guest

    Spajky wrote:

    > On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 12:19:50 +0100, Baron <> wrote:
    >
    >>> a solution for longer distances (over 20m)
    >>> should also work BUT I still did NOT TESTED it ! ...
    >>> if someone interested, here is
    >>> a schematic to test (if someone willing to do it by himself..)
    >>>
    >>> http://193.189.160.28/seibert/HP/UsbEnh/UsbLongCable.gif

    >
    >>Your circuit will work !

    >
    > Well, ´till I test it, I am not 100% sure (still could be some data
    > signal phase problems ...)
    >
    >> It is though very dangerous !

    >
    > good to have pointed to that ...
    >
    >> you have no way of guaranteeing
    >>that the ground potential is going to be the same at each USB
    >>connection ! That is no voltage difference between the negative
    >>connections.

    >
    > Yes, that could be the problem, when having connected not just only
    > one or mixed powered & non powered "Usb clients" or hubs together or
    > daisy chained ... but as I recall, negative (4th usb pin) & grounds on
    > "clients" side should not be tied/connected together as a standard
    > states ...


    If you have full control over what happens at both ends ! Someone could
    use your circuit to tie two disparate systems together !

    > But anyway, the schematic idea was primerly ment only for single Usb
    > port use with single non-auto /bus/ powered power-hungry device like
    > WLAN UsbKey ...


    Yes that would be fine !

    >>Just the induced voltages due to cable length will
    >>potentially cause issues.

    >
    > Yes, that could cause some problems maybe ...
    >
    >> to protect the computer USB ports transformer Isolation
    >>should be used.

    >
    > IMHO that won´t work, since Usb is practically half-duplex serial on
    > single twisted pair & DC part on data lines serves to switch mode of
    > operation too .. (its not like for ethernet) ... but IMHO
    > opto-couplers should do the trick in that cases .. Usually for
    > extending up to 1km the Usb connection, the RS-4** chips are used for
    > twisted pair line ... but I wanted simpliest/cheapest solution ; well,
    > nothing is idiotproof ... :) , always something could go wrong ..


    Actually it should. A transformer would only need to carry the signal
    pair ! Then isolated DC supplies could be used at the ends. It would
    be similar to "Power over Ethernet" topology.

    If you are into salvage ! the signal transformers from junked 56K modems
    work fine !

    > ... but anyway, thanks for opinions ... you know, anytime you try to
    > do something "special" & out of ordinary stuff, problems could arise &
    > a desire not to fry something :)) is always present ...


    I've fried plenty in my time ! Trouble is making an assumption that
    catches you out.

    > --
    > Regards , SPAJKY ®
    > mail addr. @ my site @ http://www.spajky.vze.com
    > 4y - "Tualatin OC-ed / BX-Slot1 / inaudible setup!"


    --
    Regards:
    Baron:
    Baron, Oct 29, 2006
    #7
  8. tony sayer

    Spajky Guest

    On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 10:16:47 +0000, Baron <> wrote:

    >> could be the problem, when having connected not just only
    >> one or mixed powered & non powered "Usb clients" or hubs together or
    >> daisy chained ... but as I recall, negative (4th usb pin) & grounds on
    >> "clients" side should not be tied/connected together as a standard
    >> states ...

    >
    >If you have full control over what happens at both ends ! Someone could
    >use your circuit to tie two disparate systems together !


    good to warn them this way :)

    >>> to protect the computer USB ports transformer Isolation
    >>>should be used.


    >If you are into salvage ! the signal transformers from junked 56K modems
    >work fine !


    Thanks for the tip ! :) (good to know such stuff) ...
    --
    Regards , SPAJKY ®
    mail addr. @ my site @ http://www.spajky.vze.com
    4y - "Tualatin OC-ed / BX-Slot1 / inaudible setup!"
    Spajky, Oct 29, 2006
    #8
  9. tony sayer

    Spajky Guest

    On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 05:44:19 +0100, Spajky <Spajky@##volja.net> wrote:

    >On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 12:19:50 +0100, Baron <> wrote:
    >
    >>> a solution for longer distances (over 20m)
    >>> should also work BUT I still did NOT TESTED it ! ...
    >>> if someone interested, here is
    >>> a schematic to test (if someone willing to do it by himself..)
    >>>
    >>> http://193.189.160.28/seibert/HP/UsbEnh/UsbLongCable.gif

    >
    >>Your circuit will work !


    I tested it this weekend & it WORKS like a charm ... for over 20m
    away :- )))
    --
    Regards , SPAJKY ®
    mail addr. @ my site @ http://www.spajky.vze.com
    4y - "Tualatin OC-ed / BX-Slot1 / inaudible setup!"
    Spajky, Nov 20, 2006
    #9
  10. tony sayer

    Baron Guest

    Spajky wrote:

    > On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 05:44:19 +0100, Spajky <Spajky@##volja.net> wrote:
    >
    >>On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 12:19:50 +0100, Baron <> wrote:
    >>
    >>>> a solution for longer distances (over 20m)
    >>>> should also work BUT I still did NOT TESTED it ! ...
    >>>> if someone interested, here is
    >>>> a schematic to test (if someone willing to do it by himself..)
    >>>>
    >>>> http://193.189.160.28/seibert/HP/UsbEnh/UsbLongCable.gif

    >>
    >>>Your circuit will work !

    >
    > I tested it this weekend & it WORKS like a charm ... for over 20m
    > away :- )))
    > --
    > Regards , SPAJKY ®
    > mail addr. @ my site @ http://www.spajky.vze.com
    > 4y - "Tualatin OC-ed / BX-Slot1 / inaudible setup!"


    See I told you so...... ;-)

    --
    Baron:
    Baron, Nov 21, 2006
    #10
  11. tony sayer

    Spajky Guest

    On Tue, 21 Nov 2006 20:05:42 +0000, Baron <> wrote:

    >Spajky wrote:
    >
    >> On Sun, 29 Oct 2006 05:44:19 +0100, Spajky <Spajky@##volja.net> wrote:
    >>
    >>>On Sat, 28 Oct 2006 12:19:50 +0100, Baron <> wrote:
    >>>
    >>>>> a solution for longer distances (over 20m)


    >>>>> http://193.189.160.28/seibert/HP/UsbEnh/UsbLongCable.gif


    >> I tested it this weekend & it WORKS like a charm ... for over 20m
    >> away :- )))


    >See I told you so...... ;-)


    yes, but I did also some small corrections on that schematics :)

    .... will draw also another simplier for self powered devices too next
    days ... will post the link here also ...
    --
    Regards , SPAJKY ®
    mail addr. @ my site @ http://www.spajky.vze.com
    4y - "Tualatin OC-ed / BX-Slot1 / inaudible setup!"
    Spajky, Nov 22, 2006
    #11
  12. tony sayer

    Spajky Guest

    On Wed, 22 Nov 2006 05:04:15 +0100, Spajky <Spajky@##volja.net> wrote:

    >... will draw also another simplier for self powered devices too next
    >days ... will post the link here also ...


    http://193.189.160.28/seibert/HP/UsbEnh/UsbLongCable2.gif

    .... good for currents up to 100mA of consumption ...
    (or 200mA for 10,5m for example + 2x half standard Usb shielded cable
    added at the ends...)
    --
    Regards , SPAJKY ®
    mail addr. @ my site @ http://www.spajky.vze.com
    4y - "Tualatin OC-ed / BX-Slot1 / inaudible setup!"
    Spajky, Nov 25, 2006
    #12
  13. tony sayer

    Guest

    Well, here is something for all of you. Maybe you can shed some light
    with this.

    First: I am CHEAP! Point blank! So I look for the cheapest route to do
    things.

    First-a: I have little patience to some things. (like pcb creating -
    not so simple)

    Second: I have a box of Cat5e cable (250 feet) here that I have had for
    the longest. [it's not going anywhere until I use every single
    millimeter of it.]

    Third: I have a USB - 2 foot extender cable ( NOTHING special, just the
    connectors and wire. )

    So the CHEAPEST thing for me to do was to cut the USB extender cable in
    half and pull about 30 feet of the cat5e out. Connect 2 pair of the
    cat5e on each side to one part each of the cut in half extender.

    What next? I connected my Logitech USB Wheel Mouse (M-BD69) to the
    'new' extended cable I just made up and it works. I haven't noticed any
    lag or mis-clicks. I have NO relays or "active" components in between
    the mouse and my laptop.


    *** ASCII Diagram:

    |Laptop|--[USB-A]---{30 foot cat5e cable}---[USB-A]--|Mouse|


    wait, give me a sec to try something out........

    Ok. My 6Gb External Bafo 2.5 inch Hard Disc Drive was registered as a
    non-high speed device. Actually. What it says is that the device can
    perform faster if connected to a high speed USB 2.0 port. Which it
    doesn't say when connected without my 'extension' cause my ports ARE
    2.0.

    So what ideas do you guys have on that? Maybe it only matters on what
    the device you are using is? Like for instance the mouse and the HDD?
    Or maybe different types of keyboards? Size of the device? Data
    transmitted? Power consumed? All of those factors can be either
    beneficial or burdens to an extension? What say you?
    , Dec 6, 2006
    #13
  14. tony sayer

    Spajky Guest

    On 5 Dec 2006 19:33:28 -0800, wrote:

    >So the CHEAPEST thing for me to do was to cut the USB extender cable in
    >half and pull about 30 feet of the cat5e out. Connect 2 pair of the
    >cat5e on each side to one part each of the cut in half extender.
    >
    >What next? I connected my Logitech USB Wheel Mouse (M-BD69) to the
    >'new' extended cable I just made up and it works.


    >Ok. My 6Gb External Bafo 2.5 inch Hard Disc Drive was registered as a
    >non-high speed device. Actually. What it says is that the device can
    >perform faster if connected to a high speed USB 2.0 port. Which it
    >doesn't say when connected without my 'extension' cause my ports ARE
    >2.0.
    >
    >So what ideas do you guys have on that? Maybe it only matters on what
    >the device you are using is? Like for instance the mouse and the HDD?
    >Or maybe different types of keyboards? Size of the device? Data
    >transmitted? Power consumed? All of those factors can be either
    >beneficial or burdens to an extension? What say you?


    for low power or self powered devices may the Cat5e cable work Ok;
    also for lower speeds like mouses or keyboards. Usb2.0 refers to
    inside packets data rate, but the actual data speed may be reduced
    because of CRC errors & repeating packets data sending. So the way of
    knowing if it truely works faster is only to measure by copying data
    from to HD & viceversa. Under certain conditions/lenght/data speed
    using FTP cable works & is really cheapest & easyest solulution ...
    So if it work for your needs, thats Ok ! :)
    --
    Regards , SPAJKY ®
    mail addr. @ my site @ http://www.spajky.vze.com
    4y - "Tualatin OC-ed / BX-Slot1 / inaudible setup!"
    Spajky, Dec 10, 2006
    #14
  15. tony sayer

    Guest

    Yeah. I see what you are saying. I am having no problems with what I
    intend to use the extension for. I am only going to be using the
    extensions (2 of them) for a mouse and a keyboard.

    Basically, I am making a room to room extension with the ports on wall
    outlets. I am putting an LCD monitor in the kitchen and the keyboard
    and mouse. So in my walls I will have an extension of VGA cable and
    cat5e for two usb ports. And I am thinking of running another 2-wire
    for an audio extension in case I ever upgrade the LCD to one with
    speakers.

    Not a bad idea if I can use the cat5e for the usb ports.

    And I am having NO problems with it yet. So I am sure to use the cat5e.

    I am going to do a couple of more tests with this setup.

    I have played video games (halo for the pc) with both the mouse and the
    keyboard extended and have suffered no response errors or input
    latency. ( I still get good kill scores, lol. )

    I will post some of my findings on this post for any future people
    interested (if you guys don't mind that is).
    , Dec 10, 2006
    #15
  16. tony sayer

    Guest

    tony sayer wrote:
    > We've got a PC over there <- and a APC UPS over there-> around 10 metres
    > apart, don't ask!, its the way it is;!.
    >
    > We need to hook up that to the PC for monitoring etc these units use USB
    > for that.
    >
    > NE one know if its OK to extend them or daisy chain a few together for
    > that sort of length?..
    >
    >
    > TIA...
    > --
    > Tony Sayer


    i vaguely recall like 1.8M for USB and 5M for ps2 But that;s probably
    wrong. Nevertheless, it's limited.

    USB booster cables are probably closest to chaining them together. Next
    would be USB hub. A cat5 USB extender isn't chaining them together

    options are
    USB booster cables
    USB hubs
    Cat5 USB extender
    , Dec 10, 2006
    #16
  17. tony sayer

    Guest

    wrote:
    <snip>
    > USB booster cables

    <snip>

    has other names besides 'booster'. Like Active and Repeater .
    that may help trying to find it
    , Dec 10, 2006
    #17
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